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6:06 PM
@user202729 functions can take command-line arguments, it's not disallowed by any consensus
@Dennis Well, they are from the same script.
6:20 PM
@totallyhuman huh? I don't feel like this edit was really needed
What was the edit? I don't see any change
i added fatal
because I'm linking directly to the revision
because it's a requirement of the challenge but it's not specifically stated
where does it say that?
6:24 PM
...it doesn't
that's the issue
But why do you presume to know the author's intention?
because invalid answers have been deleted
I mean, has rybo111 stated anywhere that the error should be "fatal"?
so, you're saying i can't just output -1 as the error code?
'fatal' excludes a lot of languages
a large number of golfing languages lack any kind of error handling
in fast, most esolangs don't have error handling
"fatal" means it forces the program to terminate at all circumstances
6:26 PM
And then you have the langs that can't terminate, or ones that lack an explict termination instruction.
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

SteadyboxThere, I fixed it (with recycled parts) Challenge Given a string containing only letters a-z (either upper- or lowercase), fix it by adding characters to it so that the difference between two adjacent characters is no more than one, or if you can't, remove offending characters (in order) until ...

@totallyhuman can you provide a link to such an answer please?
Another There, I ... (with ...) challenge...
also putting an edit summary helps (I usually do that when I edit others' posts)
uh yeah i'm looking and i think i fucked up sorry
i've been browsing through a lot of challenges with lots of tabs oops
6:30 PM
well, next time be more cautious with your actions then
@Dennis There, I ... it ... (with ...) to be precise :P
somebody was right:
very common trend im seeing here — L_Church 4 hours ago
Well, that's kinda boring. All the challanges people want to make are the ones QUARK is not focused at (QUARK has no handling for inputting or outputting text, only numbers.)
Those challanges being various There, I ... it ... (with ...)
I'd say begin with Hello, World! ;)
can't decide on whether to be angry or to laugh
May as well just add some I/O primitives for UTF8 text
It still won't be very good at it, but those angle constants might come in handy (QUARK has builtins for 90, 180, 270, and 360)
i mean, you're gonna need them anyways if you wanna use it on ppcg
true :P
6:38 PM
@moonheart08 I mean, don't rush it, first things first calmly
I haven't been rushing it
Only a tiny subset of the commands are even implemented :P
there's 66 commands i've finalised in total, 16 actually implemented.
>_< I hate it so much that, while post deletions update automatically, post undeletions don't, therefore unfairly disabling features for me
I mean, some of the most complex commands, like Generators, will probably be on hold for a while :P
@ATaco I have tacos userscripts enabled. How can I delete just one of them?
7:08 PM
> Xray is an experimental Electron-based text editor
> Xray feels lightweight and responsive
The text is inconsistent with itself. I'd be careful, it's probably a scam
@NieDzejkob I doubt it, it has 4090 stars
An obnoxious spelling of goat.
ok thanks
(Popularized by Downgoat, I think)
7:13 PM
@NieDzejkob well technically electrons are lightweight and responsive...
that's where stuff like gaotspek (obnoxious spelling in general) comes from
a faster atom would be awesome though
@totallyhuman it would. Mine takes a while to load if I'm using a big workspace folder
@totallyhuman This is called VS Code.
not as customizable
7:20 PM
how do I take a string and return a file-like/stream-like object that reads to that string (python)
oh cool, thanks!
Q: I'm thinking about transliterating the multi-byte characters I use in Add++ to single byte non-printables in the source code. Would I then be able to claim characters such as and ¦ as one byte?
found this on reddit. what the fuck.
@cairdcoinheringaahing yes, but i think you should be able to input the non-printable version as well
@betseg What's with the ¬ and multibyte characters?
7:28 PM
@betseg JS has async and await?
or what is it if not JS?
@cairdcoinheringaahing EOL etc
Also, is this Godot IDE?
@labela--gotoa no idea, as i said i found it on reddit
@labela--gotoa yes
@betseg Given that it would just translate ~10 specific characters and ignore the other characters, I'm guessing the non-printable versions would work just as well
@betseg Can you give a link?
7:29 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing You can claim a score of X bytes if and only if you can pass an X-byte file to your (file-based) interpreter that does what it's supposed to.
now I realised this is a joke of double braces...
normally something I would do in a project with my brother
@betseg It took me way too long to notice that
is there anything to notice for us who don't know JS? ;P
that's how i will put braces from now on. best of both worlds.
@EriktheOutgolfer braces
7:32 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer Yes
oh, I expected something even weirder lol
@Dennis I understand that 'definition', but I don't understand how to pass files as non-ASCII byte versions. For example in this, the first line is the version that currently works and that the programmer would see, and the second line would be what the interpreter sees (using control characters). Would I still be able to claim each of the €¦ characters as one byte in that case?
i cant register at google code jam?
@cairdcoinheringaahing think of the encoding as a representation of the actual program, that's what Jelly programs really look like too (lots of unprintables) for example, but we don't use that real look when we talk about it, we use the representation the encoding specifies instead
Bytes are not characters.
To get characters from bytes, you also need an encoding.
7:38 PM
Does anyone in here know Lua? I want to require a module from the command line when i launch Lua, is there any flag for that?
I'm talking about what you would see if you open a JELLY-encoded file in e.g. Notepad
@cairdcoinheringaahing By using printf, xxd, base64, a hexeditor, or whatever you'd like to use to create such as file. Try it online!
Oh, nevermind, I found it. It's lua -l foo
@EriktheOutgolfer A text editor is an exceptionally bad way of looking at a Jelly-encoded file. That goes doubly for Notepad.
7:40 PM
is there any good way to look at a JELLY-encoded file other than using a decoder first? ;)
hexdump maybe
yuck, no way
@EriktheOutgolfer Hmm, I bet you could make a vim plugin for it to support the jelly encoding
Unfortunately, vim's default font doesn't render most of those characters, so you'd need to change fonts also

most of us
(at least on windows, idk on *nix)
7:42 PM
vim has a font? Doesn't it use whatever font your terminal uses?
Not if you use Gvim, which I do because windows' terminal is utter garbage
(inb4 eww windows)
inb4 gvim != vim
@DJMcMayhem see :h gfn
inb4 "I can only see inb4 now and that makes me dizzy"
There's actually something about gvim that are really nice compared to using it in the terminal. For one, you can choose whatever font you want. And since it has it's own window, you can make shortcuts that resize the window, which is hard to do in the terminal. And most of all, shortcuts like ctrl-s, ctrl-j etc. don't screw it up
@totallyhuman Hey, do you mind if I use your avatar in a Puzzling.SE question?
@DJMcMayhem That's because you should be using PowerShell, which is great and does all things. :p
I won't insult any religions here, but Adm seems to be a PowerShellist :P
Most of use get fanatic about certain technologies :P
Wow, three ':P's in a row.
@DJMcMayhem Install cmder and your life will be greatly imroved
7:52 PM
@DJMcMayhem And develop an unhealthy amount of dislike towards others.
@Pavel Hmm. I had ConEmu for a while, and it was nice, but it took a lot of work to get VS to run projects through it. Is Cmder any easier on that front?
It kinda bugged me that half of my programs would open through cmd and half would be through ConEmu
IDK, I still use the Windows terminal for VS.
I still use CMD. ._.
@DJMcMayhem do you mean inclusive or exclusive?
@DJMcMayhem That sounds like a registry key issue.
7:54 PM
@Pavel So that fails to fix my main problem with cmd: I can't copy output from a VS program I ran
@DJMcMayhem You can symlink conhost.exe to conemu.exe or whatever it's called
Which might not break everything.
If something doesn't have a small chance of bricking your machine, is it even worth doing?
@Pavel I've learnt it's a good idea to avoid symlinking things under \Windows
@DJMcMayhem Why not? Works for me.
If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably because you're on 10 and I'm on 7
7:57 PM
@DJMcMayhem That sounds like it.
can't update to 10?
(did you get a reservation until july 29, 2016 or whenever entries closed?)
Most people I know came to regret the decision to upgrade.
Last time I checked there were still a few ways to get it free, legally, from MS.
@EriktheOutgolfer I wouldn't say can't, it's more that I'm paid to write programs that use technologies that aren't supported on 10 yet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I use 10 on home machiens
8:01 PM
@Dennis nothing worth regretting, unfortunately, since windows 10 is going to be a necessity in a few years (2023), and is already the only (major) Windows version which receives mainstream updates
I remember how I felt for months after updating, it was totally awful :(
@EriktheOutgolfer yep it was. Pretty good now
If you can't use your computer as needed because the OS won't let you, you have no choice but to roll back. And 5 years is a long time in software; there will probably be a new version of Windows before that happens.
o_O I just deleted 12 GB from my /downloads folder.
@EriktheOutgolfer Why specifically 2023?
dennis-home:~$ sudo du -hs /tmp
24G     /tmp
@Dennis this is why I still have a 98 install on my desktop, in addition to the 10 and WSL Ubuntu. My favourite fractal generator doesn't work above 98, and the author is too dead to fix it.
8:05 PM
That's a serious impediment, yeah.
Closed source, I presume?
@Dennis yep.
This is why I love open source. If something doesn't work, you have a chance to make it work.
@DJMcMayhem I once had my tablet's memory full and then realised that "Downloads" folder contained like 30% of all memory...
Because of all APK's I downloaded to test my apps. In times when Chrome didn't ask if you want to replace, just appended a number to the name
@Dennis That doesn't really answer my question. I asked if I'd still be able to claim them as single bytes, not how to enter non-printables as a file.
btw, is there any way to skip repeating x.pack() in Tkinter? It's quite annoying and makes my beautiful code more ugly .-.
8:15 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing You said I don't understand how to pass files as non-ASCII byte versions, so I told you how. I don't know what you mean by what the interpreter sees.
@Dennis As in the string passed to the interpreter function/class/whatever would replace all instances of with 
I finally got lazy evaluation to work in Jagony. I have no idea how... but it works
@cairdcoinheringaahing So you want to provide a UTF-8 encoded source file and count the length of the internal representation? No, that doesn't work.
@Dennis Ok, thanks. Sorry it took a bit of explaining :/
8:23 PM
@DJMcMayhem You saved me... 200 bytes!
Has anyone else spent 2 hours on a piece of code trying to fix a bug, then made it work by changing one thing, but still had NO CLUE how it works?
@Zacharý Who hasn't? :P
@MagicOctopusUrn I'm glad to hear it! On <your brain-flak code here> for the output?
@DJMcMayhem 252 bytes down
@DJMcMayhem I was honestly looking to use deltas between numbers, restarting after each negative delta. But I see the idea for differences as well... I'm incorporating that now... theres some other problems with this as well that I'm fixing. Also, the 05AB1E code itself is ungolfed, not that it matters, but I want to redo that too. — Magic Octopus Urn 13 mins ago
FWIW, that's an excellent idea and how most manual golfs work
8:28 PM
@DJMcMayhem I was thinking about using base-2 or something, then using that "double" idea up to the closest base-2 integer; but also, is there a mode to evaulate BF as binary?
But for negative deltas, you could do [x] rather than restarting
@DJMcMayhem [x]? Is that like subtract?
[x] negates x IIRC
Yep. It evaluates to the negative of it's argument (so [()()()] == -3)
Do I need better error messages than this tio.run/##S8ksKqn8/98w9v9/AA when brackets are mismatched?
8:29 PM
@MagicOctopusUrn No, but it's not a particularly hard snippet to write binary-decimal
@DJMcMayhem There's no way to "pop, evaluate, repeat until stack is empty" is there?
@MagicOctopusUrn What exactly do you mean? Do you want to sum each pop?
Like, push all the values then run the "multiply", somehow sift that value to the bottom of the stack and continue so I only have to call multiply once in a loop?
Ah, I see
Yeah, you could do that.
I know for a fact the worst part of my answer is repeating that multiply clause 100 times hah.
8:31 PM
But rather than sifting it to the bottom, which is ridiculously hard, I would pop it onto the alternate stack (which means you'll have to push them in reverse order)
... Did you read the tutorial?
@DLosc ooh that'd be cool, sure!
I mean... yes, kind of haha.
@MagicOctopusUrn Try it online!
8:33 PM
Ohh.... the tutorial isn't overly obvious about it... <>, says "toggle active stack" but I'm still even getting used to () and {} at this point so I hadn't tried using <>[] yet lol.
@totallyhuman Thanks! I'll put a link here when I post it.
do you need a higher res version?
> Brain-Flak has two stacks, known as 'left' and 'right'. The active stack starts at left.
Is that not obvious enough?
I guess it is a little strange that we refer to them as left and right rather than main and alternate
@DJMcMayhem i don't even SEE that line, where is that
Ohhh... I skip the first paragraphs of stuff. Terrible habit.
It's literally the first line of the tutorial
8:35 PM
@DJMcMayhem I assume the first paragraph of things is introduction of the thing sometimes, I feel dumb.
@DJMcMayhem Try it online :D!
8:57 PM
How do you get the number of arguments that you can give to a lambda in Python?
What do you mean?
some inspect trickery probably
Like JS fn.length
@Zacharý (<# of args>, lambda x, y, z: ...)
No need to mess around with inspect :P
8:59 PM
I'm doing this for debugging, as I don't know which of MANY lambdas in my code is causing an error
Ah. Never mind me then :P
Why do you have so many lambdas?
How do I bounty a post again? I don't see the button...
It's for Jagony... the lazy evaluation I'm using is full of them
@Zacharý wait is that seriously a thing
9:08 PM
@totallyhuman Yep (IIRC)
Function as a parameter, that way you don't have to pass in the number of arguments (à la .length of an array)
@totallyhuman it's actually been useful for Canvas for knowing how many items to pop from the stack for a lambda
9:49 PM
@dzaima I think MY does that as well (the Python version of fn.length, because sympy isn't in JS...)
IIRC, D has fn.length ... but I'm not sure about that one.
@totallyhuman because.
I use Javascript so much I don't even care anymore, even thought the room around me is on fire and has a molten reactor core in the corner
@DJMcMayhem Clearly you should use WSL and open Vim in a Linux Terminator window :P
@moonheart08 ... you're using JS wrong
u sure
@moonheart08 actually you're using it right you can probably sell the reactor core for a lot
@moonheart08 yes? a lot of good things are written in JS, like Vivaldi, VSL, Hyperdrive and (possibly) xray
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

NH.Shortest C# noop c#code-golf I'm thinking this is probably too simple of a challenge, but if I can pull it off without getting downvoted into oblivion, I would like to. I'm basically asking for what is the shortest valid statement in C# that doesn't have negative side effects. Negative side ef...

9:58 PM
@ASCII-only Wsl isn't on 7 :P
@DJMcMayhem :/ rip
I just had a stupid, but potentially brilliant idea: Make a KOTH challange based on factorio, where the goal is to have a bot make the best factory possible that lasts for as long as possible against enemies
@moonheart08 can't the bot just fight the enemies manually
not for long, if you have the enemies scale up
@moonheart08 also can't you build an impenetrable laser turret wall
10:01 PM
@ASCII-only You have no idea how lategame that is.Plus, this is a simplified version we're talking about. We can have the enemies scale infinitely, so that's not just the best approach forever
and alongside that, not like the bot actually needs to fight the enemies by hand. Force it to actually defend using machinery :P
I might just rewrite the entire Jagony source to use transpilation instead of my lazy evaluation hack...
@Zacharý well I use evaluation
@feersum less overhead so my battery doesn't die
@ASCII-only Stuff like System.MainClass.MainMethod.Define(System.IO.Write(System.Literals.Integer.Zero‌​)) needs to work here, and I'm not that good with lazy evaluation... this is just a hacked mess.
@Zacharý what is this
Object Oriented to the extreme.
10:15 PM
how can you have two statements in your main class
@ASCII-only You seem to have broken And? Try it online!
also, I don't think Charcoal is accepting separators after MapAssignRight right now
	System.MainClass.HelperMethod.Define( ... )
	System.MainClass.MainMethod.Define( ... )
@Neil Oops :/
10:19 PM
.Chain will be like ;
Haha, I love inverted colours on iPhone. TIO looks really weird :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing iirc you can even invert via CSS
@cairdcoinheringaahing oh. how does it look weird though
screenie don't work
screenies are normal color
10:23 PM
@totallyhuman Aww, that sucks :/
@cairdcoinheringaahing here
@totallyhuman huh?
I think I'm going to write a transpiler (while keeping my lazy-evaluation-code in a separate file) and see how that goes... this is Just AGONY
@Zacharý Btw, very clever idea to just translate the 01!<> code to APL.
10:32 PM
@totallyhuman 10/10 looks like a stain
@Adám I wasn't talking about that... but thanks!
@Zacharý I wasn't responding to anything ⍨
You made it sound like I had the idea for transpilation in that challenge.
@Zacharý Oh, I didn't even notice ⍥
Which challenge is this for>
10:36 PM
@Zacharý None. I'm confused. I should go to bed. Sorry.
Found it!
@Zacharý Maybe your talk of transpiling somehow made me think it was yours. Dunno.
The challenge J. Sallé was asking you about.
@Zacharý Yes, and EriktheOutgolfer made a very clever solution.
Ah, so you mistakenly thought I did it?
10:45 PM
@Zacharý Somehow, yes.
@Zacharý Maybe also because you asked about a detail in my golfing J.Sallé's solution to the same problem.
Yeah, but I figured it out.
@Zacharý Took me a while to figure out why i+← and i←i+ didn't do the same thing.
WTF how am I getting Popular Question so quickly
Popular Question on the scissors challenge in 5 hours at 1480 now
you've been hit by, you've been struck by, H N Q
10:48 PM
It becomes apparent when you literally have a modified assignment that would be equivalent to just assignment...
(w/ regards to Adám ... having i⊢← in the code)
@HyperNeutrino Hard to follow multiple intertwined conversations without pings?
@Adám yes lol
Ninja'd? Sort of?
1 hour later…
11:57 PM
TIL there's a comic parchment font (papryus + comic sans)
@moonheart08 how would it be scored though? some may perform better earlygame while others might just be preparing for the first who knows how many hours
It's available for purchase? o_O

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