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2:21 AM
Found a bug in the Sliding Miners vampire code, particularly the rail reparation. Also, it now gets distracted by fake main rails less often (it never followed them for long)
Also found I was over-detecting on Highway, still ongoing to reduce the excess matching
 
 
12 hours later…
2:36 PM
My basic termites koth idea is to have players gather dead matter (including dead friendly/enemy termites), strategically farm fungus which can kill plants and feed off of dead matter, and create structures to guard their nests
The idea is to try to have a balance between different means of growth, limited by the limited state of state machine workers and simultaneous movement
And of course, possible enemy raids and sabotagr
 
@Draco18s I cannot praise you enough for your wonderful debug tools, including the Test buttons, the Show On Map checkboxes - and the ever creative Vampire bringing to light the forgotten cases in my conditionals. :-d
@eaglgenes101 Farming insect colonies sounds exciting...
 
I am trying to capture the basic behaviors of termites while minimizing complexity in the challenge
 
2:59 PM
@eaglgenes101 Do let me know when you post it on meta!
 
 
1 hour later…
4:24 PM
It kinda bothers me that Highway has a sort of thin spot in the early stages of the game, especially when it starts horizontally... Though I don't think there is a solution to that :/
@Draco18s Isn't the entire rail blocked by Vamp's workers? SlM's workers won't willingly step off their rail, AFAIK.
 
@Alion oh yeah, didn't notice that. Yeah, going off of the main rail is a terrible idea for SlM
 
4:40 PM
Going through my code, remembered about this gem: const repairTravel = (o, i, d, x, g, c, f, y, z) => { ... }. It'll take me 15 minutes to decipher this... Why did I do this to myself?
 
4:56 PM
@Alion for which, SlM or Highway?
 
@Draco18s Talking about the screenshot provided.
The one with SlM workers queuing up...
 
Oh, that's not an average case
The farthest right vampire worker usually isn't there at all
 
@Draco18s you said Not sure what is going wrong on SlM's side though, so Alion replied
 
When I posted the pic I thought the far right vampire worker was actually SlM
 
5:11 PM
I think if I made all workers actively try to destroy enemy queens at all costs possible (including erasing the main rail or anything else), Vampire would have no real place to hide from the bot
also, as the queen is the last in line to execute from a bots ants (AFAIK) with nothing betweem them, a single worker could always move away from the queen if required and the queen could spawn one back immediately before any enemy ant
 
5:50 PM
That is indeed the order, so that sounds foolproof
 
I'd just have to be sure to only move one worker :p
@trichoplax yay I understood the code :D
 
It goes: workers oldest to youngest, then queen, then the same for the next player
@dzaima oh yeah that would be a problem since most workers can't see each other. Hadn't thought of that
 
in the case of a queen by my queen I think it'll be safe to recolor the color below the queen for identification purposes
oh, but vampire could modify it :/
 
@dzaima :D although I'd hoped to make that explicit in the spec. Might need to look at that again and see if it needs editing
 
@trichoplax I haven't read the spec in a long while
but the color will always be the same once workers are parsed
 
5:57 PM
If your queen is encased in friendly workers, a worker could change its own colour as a request for leave of absence, then the queen can change that worker's colour to grant leave
 
And an enemy worker moving after the queen could change that cell color too
 
Oh good point
 
That's one of the things I did in my attack on Windmill. I ran into a particular case where vampire went from leeching to net-zero and it was caused by the spawn of a new worker in an unfortunate place. So I started messing with the windmill time counting system
 
Maybe we need two layers of workers... 24 workers should cover it...
 
ba hahaha
 
6:00 PM
really all that the coloring can be used for is notifying the queen to do a single action if there's a reserved worker always spawned first to clear it at the start of the bots execution. It would probably be best used for "were dead, abort everything"
4 worker types is so small though
 
in other news, Vampire's currently overworked. I've got to see if I can get Glider to neutralize one of: Windmill, SlM, Highway.
I think I have an attack I can make on highway
The underlying problem is that I nee to make the queen waste her food, or perform the attack early enough that she never collects any
The attack I made on Wildfire worked, because if the WF queen was below 80 food, she'd spawn 3 new workers.
 
6:14 PM
I'm busy writing pattern-matching routines
It's hard work compared to the fun of writing saboteur routines
Writing casework routines is tedious
 
The sabotage option I'm leaning towards is to turn Glider into a semi-vampire in Highway space. And I say "semi vampire" because the queen won't be involved unless she invokes ForeverAlone (as the forever alone code can't extricate her from Highway, due to the use of green)
 
@dzaima I wanted this to be a very limited information game, but 4 worker types was a fairly arbitrary number. It would probably be a very different game with more. I'd love to see what differences it would lead to but I doubt we ever will...
 
@Draco18s once vampire and glider are combined, I see absolutely no way for any other bot to succeed :/
 
A vampire with wings that can fly at light speed?
 
@dzaima My goal isn't to merge the two behaviors, honestly. It's just that if I look at the situation where "glider queen is alone and inside Highway, what can I do?"
And if I look at that scenario objectively, the answer is "find the highway queen and be a parasite." Because any other option is objectively terrible.
@trichoplax Haha! I'm not sure making Vampire turn more often would actually be in its benefit...I mean...maybe?
 
6:23 PM
@Draco18s yeah, I'm not saying that it's the wrong thing to do, I'm just making a logical connection :p
 
Heh :p
 
Instead of boxing a queen in for defence, what about keeping the box of workers the same width (3) but extending the height of the box. So the queen is protected behind two walls of workers, but can run up and down the length of the thin box collecting any food from workers that happened to have a queen stumble into them
Probably more expensive than just boxing in unless it's very early in the game though
 
@trichoplax in which direction should the box be extended relative to the rail? neither seem to help for SlM
 
If you really wanted to spend a lot of food, you could extend the box horizontally and vertically, and have the queen run laps of the inside
@dzaima this ridiculous idea isn't related to any current player in particular
 
@trichoplax you'd have to be careful not letting the enemies in though
@dzaima heh, that reminds me of my flit strategy :p
 
6:29 PM
Yeah. I guess you might have to make it a hollow branching perimeter so the workers can grow around any obstacles without risk of ever letting anyone in or out
 
@trichoplax It would've been fun if you could put, say, any string as a worker type. You could just number your workers. "LEFT_WORKER_139". Would simplify and improve hoarding mechanisms.
 
@Alion it'd make the challenge too easy though
 
That
 
I deliberately made this game a ridiculously low information game. I'm looking forward to trying high information games in future
 
Meh... would it? Is there any idea that's infeasible due to limited worker types?
I guess formation sweep would be a lot easier...
 
6:32 PM
The only thing I really REALLY wish I could get ants to do in this game would be to commit suicide.
 
It would still be read only information, so still limiting, but this game just happens to be much more limiting
 
@Alion it'd make vampire defending way easier - you'd be able to make workers for specific helper actions
 
Arbitrary, even read only, name strings would allow for virtually unlimited knowledge storage.
 
@Alion it'd make it possible to have a random different rail design on every game
 
Oh, okay. That would change everything. Woah.
 
6:35 PM
It would allow glider to rebuild lost wings
I think, not entirely sure
It'd let Black Hole count food-spent
 
@Draco18s It'd let everyone count food spent. And whole lot of otger things @dzaima made me realize.
 
(I could probably find a way to make glider workers rearrange themselves in the correct position by age, if I had arbitrary names)
@Alion Well, yes.
 
Now, slap onto that modifying that string on the fly...
Basically new challenge.
 
@trichoplax See @trichoplax's comment <--
blah, that doesn't quite work
@Alion, you read the replied to message!
(Also, what the devil is up with avatars on messages? I get them so rarely...)
 
I just really want a new this-related-koth as this one is pretty settled right now and I don't have much to do :p
 
6:39 PM
I would like one that has this level of complexity and simplicity that...isn't this
 
@dzaima And I've got Highway fixes + Edgehugger and I'm out as well.
 
grumbles, does not want to rewrite the Petri Dish Prisoners Dilemma controller in JS so it can run in a browser
extra grumbles because he doesn't want to manage it in Python either!
 
Hmm, would this challenge + ant memory + hexagonal grid + explicit food pickup/steal and place/give be considered a duplicate? I'd love to participate in such a challenge. After I'm done with this one, that is.
 
You'd have to define how food theft would work.
e.g. if queens can steal from enemy workers and workers can steal from enemy queens, how do you keep them from fighting over a piece of food?
 
Hmm, I should post a preliminary to the sandbox, and discuss it over there. I'll go do that when I get back to my PC.
 
6:54 PM
*salute
That said, I will probably not participate, even if its not a dupe. My brain wants a new challenge, not a slightly similar one
 
@Draco18s Hmm, I kinda get where you're coming from. Though my life has literally been Formic the past 2 months, so I'm stuck in a box when thinking up challenges.
 
The biggest thing you'd have to insure is that a ant styled after Highway doesn't crush the new challenge design.
 
@Draco18s As long as there is memory, I think we're safe... some memory-based thing might wreck the challenge, though.
 
How much memory? What type(s)?
 
Let's continue this discussion over on meta when I have access to a more efficient keyboard...
 
7:05 PM
Link me when you have a spot
 
@Draco18s I feel like a highway type thing winning easily is better than a simple 2 ant organism..
 
@dzaima Oh, absolutely
 
I feel like that challenge would bring on a whole new level of complexity required to win
 
And complexity I really don't want to deal with :(
 
I'm not sure whether its even worth it attempting adding protectors to SlM as pretty much any setup can be abused and then easily fixed by an edit, making a never ending edit war
 
7:13 PM
IMO if it would devolve to a never-ending simple edit war, let the aggressor (in this case Vampire) win out. I had a similar situation between Black Hole and Trail Eraser
 
I'd say that me having no ideas is good as I'll finally be able to focus on schoolwork, but there's a break coming up next week ಠ_ಠ
 
Eventually Eraser found a way that I couldn't counter, but the two of us knew that there was a simple edit on both sides that would just cause an edit war and I basically said (as the defender), "I won't participate"
 
@Draco18s that's easy for you to decide :p
 
I once thought of a Formic 3D, with the view rotated on 2 axes. Needless to say I nope'd out of there pretty quickly...
 
Ha
 
7:15 PM
as much as I'd like to attempt adding anti-vampire, I feel like it's worthless in the end
 
I will admit there's a limited amount of effort I'm willing to go to to defeat various vampiric garlic. But as work is between projects at the moment...I've got time...
 
The termite game I'm designing is slightly higher information, but the mechanics are such that a termite can't reliably know enough about its environment to know whether what it's doing is a good idea
It has to guess
And maybe collaborate with other termites and help refine their guesses
 
Random thought:
What if ants could move and color cells at the same time...but doing so would require moving *onto* the cell colored?
My next thought was "what if that always happened?"
(assuming it was a valid move, I suppose)
 
@Draco18s then LS/Glider type bots would win even more
oh wait, every trail coloring would be LS
 
mhm
 
7:22 PM
Random idea: implement that in the current controller and see the chaos
 
pfft
Rail miners (and like) would immediately explode
that said, its an easy change.
 
Highway would actually be more or less fine, I believe...
 
@Draco18s highway would maybe still work fine though
 
No, no it wouldn't. Main rail nonsense.
 
@Alion heh, SlMs rail would be the only thing working fine :p
oh wait, the queen would be very confused
it'd make complex things work less reliably
 
7:26 PM
Okay, back to my PC. Will try to do some basic write-up based on copy-paste of the current Formic challenge, with appropriate changes.
 
Roman Mk 2
under the "if you color, go there"
 
@Draco18s Modern art at its finest.
Did you modify the controller, or the entry?
 
controller
 
Wait, what am I saying? Nevermind.
 
Black Hole is...virtually uneffected. The "draw light trails when lost inside" code would only fail during the "I encountered a prior light trail"
Wildfire falls apart (no surprise).
Medusa somehow got disqualified (?!??)
 
7:35 PM
@Draco18s coloring under an ant/food?
 
TypeError: view[queen] is undefined
Explorer and Ziggurat devolve into blobs. Ziggurat managed to spawn a worker, but the queen and worker fought over what color a cell should be.
 
@Alion hexagonal grid would reduce the cells seeable, and combined with the 6 rotations possible make for a very hard time working
 
Glider and Lightspeed are unsurprisingly unaffected. I don't think either one ever colors a cell that isn't {cell:4}
(Glider does...but its always a cell under another ant)
 
memory would probably compensate somewhat though
 
(which in this modified controller just doens't move the ant)
 
7:40 PM
@dzaima Yup, I'm counting on the fact that having memory gives a lot of options.
 
programming patterns for hexagons would also be hard annoying
 
Sliding Miners turns into Langdon's ant.
 
@dzaima Hm? How so?
Oh, you retain knowledge of only 4 colors after a move.
Ah, I see what you mean. Hmm...
 
Yeah, that would make things problematic. It would always be four. But it would only ever be 4
 
7:43 PM
@Alion that + rotations make it impossible to be 100% certain after moving that you're where you think you are
 
@dzaima Wait, I actually can't follow what you're saying. How are 4 colors not enough to be 100% certain?
 
WOW. This "coloring makes you move" paradigm, highway is surprisingly resilient. I mean, the queen has run off on a diagonal, but...
 
@Alion the colors can be flipped on the new 3 colors, and the center cant tell you anything
@Draco18s I expected something like that
 
@dzaima Ah, I see. Hm, that spices thing up a little.
 
7:46 PM
@Alion it eventually disqualified with "A laden worker cannot move onto food." But that's due to the controller change
 
@Draco18s Yep, understandable.
 
(I didn't write code to avoid food, only ants)
 
@dzaima Then again, that's literally how my main rail works right now. The three new colors can (and already have) confused my queen for a couple turns.
 
@Alion the problem is that you can never be 100% certain
 
That was a fun experiment, no other interesting things to report. Most of the ants would either just outright fail in a mess of color or be largely unaffected.
 
7:49 PM
wait, imma give you a modified SlM3 to try :p
 
@dzaima If you wanted to be 100% certain, you can theoretically 1. map out your surroundings, 2. go towards either way, 3. compare surroundings, 4. profit.
1.1) move onto uncertain territory
 
+1 for horrible drawing
 
@dzaima You can remember that you had blue, red, orange (yellow?), move onto question mark, move again (towards one of the two sensible options), compare surroundings.
If you moved forward, surroundings would be different. If you moved backwards, surroundings would be the same.
 
ಠ_ಠ the modification doesn't even work on the regular controller
 
7:53 PM
Annoying, but works.
 
I mean...no? :D
 
@Draco18s it's just a change to allow the queen to match other parts of the rail
why does the queen just do nothing..
 
I have no idea what you're doing, but I'm just not surprised that it would fail in the regular controller
 
@Draco18s I'm just enabling something that was just disabled for more reliability
 
Mmm
 
7:56 PM
oh, the queen starts off matching not being on the center. That's a problem
@Draco18s this won't work well but eh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
@dzaima if you want this modified controller for yourself, its easy. Download the official (or mine). Find function processCurrentAnt() { and add this to the if(response.color)
`if (response.cell !== 4) {
var destinationCell = arena[x + y*arenaWidth]
if (!destinationCell.ant) {
moveAnt(x, y, currentAnt, rotatedView, response)
}
}`
 
oh right, the queen will paint the shafts ಠ_ಠ
 
yeah, the rule screws with your perceptions
 
well, there's new a branch for SlM for that rule :p
 
hehe
 
8:10 PM
I just really want more Formic functions :p
I feel like that something interesting could be made out of that rule
 
I suspect most pattern entries would find a way to only ever color the cell they (or an ally) is standing on.
Even if it takes extra workers
 
oh god it's gonna take a lot of changes to the repair function
 
Yeah
I figured
 
aight too hard whats next
 
umm
 
8:23 PM
:p
 
I can add a command to make ants commit suicide.
doing so...CONVERTS THEM INTO FOOD DOTS
 
@Draco18s Make them leave a piece of food behind.
Oh, whoops. Late.
 
:D
This new command helps no one except Vampire
 
@Draco18s oh okay I was just about to reply with a long equalivent of "boring"
 
Hehe
 
8:24 PM
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle!
Don't need it? Kill it next to a queen and get the food back. Damn, that's nice. Shame we can't really know when ants should commit suicide to effectively regain food.
 
@Draco18s does glider do well colliding with its residue?
 
The stationary ants would commit seppukku if that rule existed.
it wouldn't bother Glider if it didn't or couldn't collect the food.
Those ants are stationary because I hadn't found a way to get them to fly off and be disruptive
(they'd interact with the tips and break both of them)
 
 
2 hours later…
10:01 PM
Okay. I wrote up a spec to the new challenge, based on @trichoplax's. With credit, of course. Here's a link.
 

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