Charcoal HQ

Undo

7:02 PM

no reason to dig stuff up

Tinkeringbell

@Undo :( You know, I studied archaeology. Such sentences always disappoint me :(

Undo

hah

Tinkeringbell

!!/amiprivileged

SmokeDetector

@Tinkeringbell ✓ You are a privileged user.

Andy

Tinkeringbell

7:03 PM

Ah, so that doesn't expire after doing nothing ever...

Glorfindel

@Andy checks mailbox

Undo

That one worked @ArtOfCode

pings are hard

Tinkeringbell

So, since I apparently am still a privileged user. What comes next?

Jake Symons

You use your privs :) And try not to break stuff like me

ArtOfCode

@Andy \o/

Tinkeringbell

7:07 PM

@JakeSymons Ugh... I'm like an elephant in a porcelain cabinet sometimes.. But I'll try ;)

I just respond to whatever the smokedetector posts in here by replying to the message with one of the commands on the wiki?

ArtOfCode

@Tinkeringbell yup

Alternatively, we've got a couple of userscripts that make the feedback process much nicer

Tinkeringbell

@ArtOfCode Guess I read the manual correctly then... okay, come on, post something!

@ArtOfCode Oh?

ArtOfCode

I see this on reports:

Tinkeringbell

How long does it take to set that up? I want to do some crocheting tonight as well, but if it doesn't take hours ;)

ArtOfCode

Clicking the fire brings this dialog up:

Jake Symons

7:10 PM

I use fire, it has a habit of freezing all the time just when I'm trying to get a flag in before its deleted.

ArtOfCode

@Tinkeringbell no more than 10 minutes - you need to install a userscript manager like Tampermonkey, if you don't already have one, and then install the script (which is two clicks).

Tinkeringbell

@ArtOfCode Fancy ;)

ArtOfCode

@JakeSymons Sounds like a bad net connection to me - FIRE does a lot of network requests

Jake Symons

Yeah, I'm in the process of upgrading my broadband so hopefully that will make things faster, its probably the speed, still on 1.5 at the moment :)

ArtOfCode

yeeeah

Not an issue for me at 80 Mbps ;)

Jake Symons

7:14 PM

Nice. In the small print it says "guaranteed speed between 0 and 44 mbps" so hopefully it will be the faster of the two

John Dvorak

I'm clocking in at 56 Mbps plus a Twitch stream in the background :P

ArtOfCode

John Dvorak

I use fast.com

ArtOfCode

Upload ain't as great, but still better than the connection I'm used to at my parents'

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer: Could a magic world break the social stagnation of the Early Middle Ages? (Not a technology question) by Coburn Ingram on worldbuilding.SE

Catija

7:16 PM

ArtOfCode

@Catija wheeee

John Dvorak

Speedtest.net measures only 30/20 for me O_O

Tinkeringbell

@Catija What did you do to get that!?

I thought my internet was fast :/

Catija

@Tinkeringbell I'm at work... which is a university... so... :P

SmokeDetector

fp- by Glorfindel

Tinkeringbell

7:17 PM

Where's that userscript @ArtOfCode? I checked the manual (wiki) no link :P

ArtOfCode

From what I've heard, connections in the US are generally faster but significantly more expensive

Jake Symons

Well, its more then 1.5

ArtOfCode

@Tinkeringbell charcoal-se.org/scripts

Jake Symons

Tinkeringbell

@ArtOfCode Danke!

ArtOfCode

7:17 PM

you're looking for FIRE

aka Feedback Instantly, Rapidly, Effortlessly

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad NS for domain in body: Filter by year is wrong. When I click on an year, now it only shows me the post from a certain category by Jason on stackoverflow.com (@TetsuyaYamamoto)

fp- by Glorfindel

Glorfindel

self-deleted, BTW

Undo

Work LAN is pretty decent

Jake Symons

So basically everyone is 10 times faster then me :)

You can stop rubbing it in now

ArtOfCode

But internet speed measuring contests are fun! :P

Jake Symons

7:23 PM

@ArtOfCode They are when you have a speed in double digits and @Catija triple digits

ArtOfCode

@JakeSymons I'm plenty used to single-digit speeds :)

WELZ

At work I compare with @Undo... at home I'm more like:

ArtOfCode

@Undo ping jumps, though. Guessing that's all the corporate infrastructure it's gotta go through to actually get out onto the net

Catija

What is ping?

WELZ

response time

ArtOfCode

7:25 PM

Specifically, round-trip time - the time it takes a data packet to get from you, to the target server, and back again

WELZ

@Catija Ask on Super user :P

Catija

Ah, so the closer you are to the surface, the faster it is, I guess?

Glorfindel

My download speed is 10x my upload speed o_O

Catija

That's pretty normal, isn't it?

Andy

@Glorfindel Not surprising at all

Glorfindel

7:27 PM

The last time I measured any Internet connection we were still using ISDN, so I didn't know.

Jake Symons

Why I don't watch movies or play games ^

ArtOfCode

@Catija Yup. It's speed of light in (copper/fiber), minus Some to account for time spent at intermediate nodes, times double the distance between source and destination

Tinkeringbell

@ArtOfCode metasmoke is being rude to me :(

ArtOfCode

@JakeSymons those game download times are way overestimated

@Tinkeringbell hehe

Tinkeringbell

I think I need more privileges to use FIRE?

ArtOfCode

7:28 PM

yeah, standby I'll give you them

there, should work

WELZ

If I VPN into Albania, and then another VPN into Serbia... My speeds are 161ping, 9.47d, 1.10u

ArtOfCode

@WELZ that... is not a bad ping for double-VPN

Tinkeringbell

@ArtOfCode Yep, thanks!

Makyen

@Glorfindel For consumer equipment, it's generally designed that way at the hardware level. The normal use-pattern for consumers is that people download far more data than they upload.

WELZ

and If I use the apps "official" double vpn I may get even faster (Or I can do triple vpn lol)

Tinkeringbell

7:30 PM

Okay, so that is done too. Now, let's start breaking stuff like @JakeSymons suggested :P

WELZ

suggested what?

:o

ArtOfCode

Huh

@Tinkeringbell you appear to have two flag conditions enabled with conflicting parameters

Makyen

@Glorfindel Yep, for ISDN, which was primarily designed for transmitting digitized voice data for telephone calls, the data upload/download needed is symmetric.

ArtOfCode

You've got one for 1 max poster rep and one for 101 - both enabled for the same set of sites

Tinkeringbell

@ArtOfCode Huh? Lemme see... Told ya I could break stuff...

Glorfindel

7:32 PM

@Makyen but this consumer has a website running next to his fuse box ...

Makyen

@Glorfindel "normal use-pattern" :-)

ArtOfCode

Glorfindel

wait. Isn't that normal? :P

ArtOfCode

@Tinkeringbell ^

Tinkeringbell

@ArtOfCode Yeah, I already landed there :P

I removed one, maybe that'll help :P

Makyen

7:34 PM

@Glorfindel It depends on how you define "normal" and the set over which you want to find "normal". :-)

ArtOfCode

@Tinkeringbell looks good

Jake Symons

@Tinkeringbell I have the same expect my second one goes up to 1k rep

Tinkeringbell

@JakeSymons (Don't tell @ArtOfCode and it should be fine :P)

ArtOfCode

heh, ya know I can just delete 'em right? ;)

@JakeSymons O.o wow your flag settings are... yeah

Jake Symons

@ArtOfCode how much can you see/control over my MS account?

ArtOfCode

7:39 PM

@JakeSymons most of it

can't see PII

Makyen

@ArtOfCode What theme are you using? For userscripts, I like to be able to test with commonly used themes in order to make sure the script doesn't mistakenly override the theme.

SmokeDetector

Restart: API quota is 12788.

ArtOfCode

@Makyen custom job - I took someone else's dark theme and integrated it with FIRE

sooo... @JakeSymons your two flag conditions actually do distinct things, so that's fine. You've got four preferences, though, all for the same set of sites, two for 7 max flags and two for 10.

Did you want to be using 7 or 10 flags a day?

Jake Symons

It should be 10

ArtOfCode

@JakeSymons cool, I've removed the unnecessary ones :)

Jake Symons

7:42 PM

Thanks, saves me trying to do it and breaking everything

ArtOfCode

In theory we should add some code to stop conflicting settings getting created in the first place, but that's harder than it sounds

Jake Symons

I hope when they change my wifi I can still get on, otherwise I will have to restart my 100 days

ArtOfCode

@JakeSymons more detail on what tools admins get. Basically, if you can see it, I can see it unless it's PII.

John Dvorak

@JakeSymons you could always use GSM

ArtOfCode

plus the dev tools under that

Jake Symons

7:48 PM

@ArtOfCode you can basically control everything about Smokey and everyone who users it. You can do all sorts of godlike stuff with the system. I can flag a post as spam.

What's the priv level after reviewer?

WELZ

@JakeSymons Core

Glorfindel

Core

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer: How can I erase the data from my Macbook without losing my recent OS? by david on apple.SE

Glorfindel

(which only gets you more autoflags)

ArtOfCode

speaking of which, I should code in the new core requirements

WELZ

7:49 PM

And Bragging rights

@ArtOfCode which are...?

ArtOfCode

@Glorfindel there's a few other bits as well - data exploder, flagging sandbox

WELZ

exploder Lol

announcements

ArtOfCode

@WELZ deliiberate :)

Jake Symons

announcements (please don't use this if you don't know what your doing)

I won't be using that anytime soon ^

ArtOfCode

@WELZ I'm gonna make it 60/mo for now, but throw it in a site setting so that we can change it easily

Glorfindel

7:51 PM

@SmokeDetector k

Jake Symons

I've given more then 50 feedbacks. 329 if you take the invalidated ones out

Does that make me a core member of the team?

WELZ

@ArtOfCode 404

ArtOfCode

@JakeSymons requirement is 60/mo as of approximately five minutes ago

haven't checked if you reach that, but probably

@WELZ I think that 404's if you're not in the organization

Jake Symons

What's the mo after 60?

WELZ

month

ArtOfCode

7:56 PM

@JakeSymons month

Glorfindel

@WELZ it's only accessible for the Other Awesome People :P

Jake Symons

So 60 feedbacks per month?

WELZ

Also certain links on metasmoke are hidden (or just plain hard to find), I'm not sure if it's done on purpose or not.... like, people, privileges,...

ArtOfCode

@WELZ mostly just the dev forgetting to link it or being lazy and not doing it

anyway, check your inbox for an org invite

@JakeSymons yup

WELZ

I've been invited to join the Awesome People!!!

ArtOfCode

7:58 PM

If you've got requests for particular things to be linked, now is a good time to make 'em while I've got the editor open

WELZ

If you could add a dropdown on ms homepage with like quick links.. commands, privs, people, who to ping etc.

Catija

Yes... I always scroll through the page looking for them.

ArtOfCode

@WELZ oh, like meta links rather than stuff on metasmoke? Yeah, I can do that

WELZ

@ArtOfCode I meant on Charcoal-se.org not MS

and also a link to MS

I guess technically More projects... MS works

ArtOfCode

@WELZ Ah, gotcha. In theory, anyone can add links there - source is on GH and the website is automatically deployed from it

not sure exactly where the navbar is, though :)

WELZ

8:03 PM

let me add my amazon affiliate link and some other spam links LMAO

ArtOfCode

@WELZ aaand this is why we have to be careful giving out push access to those repos :)

quartata

@ArtOfCode well if we're doing this we might as well ping on autoflagged fp

previously we were concerned about not knowing the chat username

but if you're just gonna do it like that then eh

ArtOfCode

@quartata most users are created via SE OAuth now, so the username gets pulled across automatically

quartata

yeah

when you have a has_many the parent model gets a list of the things right

e.g. flag_logs

ArtOfCode

as in User.first.flag_logs? Yeah

WELZ

8:07 PM

Art, how many folks still need to pay?

ArtOfCode

3, plus 2 I'm waiting on cheque clearance for

WELZ

Is there a way for it (autoflagging) to prefer certain users on specific sites over others?

quartata

@ArtOfCode github.com/Charcoal-SE/metasmoke/pull/313

Catija

@ArtOfCode Oh, that's what the orange is?

ArtOfCode

@Catija yup

@WELZ as in built in currently or technically possible?

WELZ

8:13 PM

@ArtOfCode either

ArtOfCode

@quartata @quartata have a one-liner

quartata

a very noisy one that uses a scope

not sure how I feel about it

ArtOfCode

@WELZ not currently built in; almost certainly technically possible

@quartata nothing wrong with scopes

SmokeDetector

[ metasmoke ] ci/circleci failure on 55d9d40: Your tests failed on CircleCI

ArtOfCode

It'll be quicker than a loop

SmokeDetector

8:14 PM

[ metasmoke ] ci/circleci failure on 55d9d40: Your tests failed on CircleCI

quartata

@ArtOfCode oh because we're selecting

sorry brain isn't on today

@ArtOfCode one of those failures is you:

> W: Lint/SafeNavigationChain: Do not chain ordinary method call after safe navigation operator.

SmokeDetector

[ metasmoke ] ci/circleci failure on 781a875: Your tests failed on CircleCI

ArtOfCode

fixed

WELZ

@ArtOfCode It would be great.... Most of my flags currently happen on Ubuntu and Drupal, though for me it would be more beneficial if I got them on a site where I'm more active - GDSE (at least until I get the badge)... like it's cool to get silver badges and tons of flags on sites I have zero interest or involvement in, but unnecessary lol

ArtOfCode

@WELZ chuck an FR on the MS repo

angussidney

8:19 PM

o/ everyone

SmokeDetector

[ metasmoke ] ci/circleci failure on 935b881: Your tests failed on CircleCI

WELZ

@ArtOfCode where exactly is that? (Issue titled feature request?)

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: How to get scrollbar position with Javascript? by andy on stackoverflow.com (@TetsuyaYamamoto)

ArtOfCode

@WELZ just an issue that has the details of what you want

Undo

That's an interesting question. There could definitely be a way to prefer a site over another, but how would one keep it fair?

I could see weighting a preferred site higher for a user, at the expense of the user's chances on other sites.

WELZ

8:25 PM

making it by rep

Undo

@Undo But that doesn't balance - weighting SO or Drupal higher is going to give you a much higher 'advantage' over other users in raw flag count than weighting some other site

@WELZ rep doesn't have much bearing on what we do

SmokeDetector

[ metasmoke ] ci/circleci failure on a99e99a: Your tests failed on CircleCI

WELZ

in order to be added to "preferred users" list.

I would much rather get my flags on gdse in exchange for some SO flags or whatever

Undo

Sure, and that's a reasonable thing to want. Question is how to make sure it can't be abused to get a higher-than-normal quantity overall

I.e. how, technically, does one transfer SO flags to GDSE in a roughly 1:1 proportion? We're dealing with a random base here, so you'd have to figure out the statistics.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in username: Mean value of a Locator Region? by blackcore on mathematica.SE

Undo

8:29 PM

sd f

WELZ

Maybe have everyone chose their top 2 sites (in order) and they get added to the preferred users list

Windows Notification: 'Heads up... we're updating...." Uhm, no thanks!!!

Undo

There's still an imbalance problem. Getting a 1% bump on SO is far more valuable than other sites

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Email in answer, username similar to website in answer: Creating address from private key (bitcoin puzzle) by ehsan on bitcoin.SE

WELZ

If 20 users choose SO as preferred site... it just decreases their flag frequenting.

Undo

And far more decreases that of everyone who didn't

WELZ

8:32 PM

@Undo but that's the whole point. choosing priority on where you want the flags to go

I actually don't even know what Drupal is LOL

ArtOfCode

@Undo pretty sure there's a wonderfully hacky way to do it

Undo

@ArtOfCode oh, almost certainly

ArtOfCode

give everyone 100 slots in the potential flaggers array

quartata

we already have the capabilities, actually

ArtOfCode

sum their site weightings and scale them to 100

quartata

8:33 PM

we have the "max flags per site" thingy

WELZ

how about just give me the most on all sites and everyone will be happy lol

ArtOfCode

then add x instances of their user to the array, where x is dictated by their scaled weighting for the current site

then .shuffle.first

WELZ

The problem is... do we let users change their preferences? if so, how often?

too code-y for me

ArtOfCode

@WELZ yes and as much as they like, changing 'em doesn't affect it

Undo

@quartata Decreasing flags on one site doesn't have any effect on other sites. It's not like everyone has a sealed bag of flags each day, and mashing one part makes the flags go to a different site.

WELZ

8:35 PM

@ArtOfCode not those, I'm saying if we implemented my idea.

quartata

@Undo but it could

Undo

you're looking at a whole bunch of code, and making autoflagging stateful

ArtOfCode

@WELZ yeah, same answer

@Undo nah, that method I just suggested it should be pure math

WELZ

I meant their preferred site preference.

ArtOfCode

@WELZ I know, still same answer

Undo

8:36 PM

@ArtOfCode welp, standard procedure: Write it up, if it's better great :P

WELZ

ok, I'm confused

@Undo was that "well" or "welz"?

Undo

welp

ArtOfCode

@WELZ you can change your preferred site weightings as often as you like, it doesn't make a difference to how many flags you get

Undo

'z' is literally the furthest key from 'p'

I think

ArtOfCode

or rather it does, but it doesn't affect anyone else's chance of flags

Undo

8:37 PM

Maybe 'q' has a chance

WELZ

@Undo LITERALLY

Undo

including only letters, blah blah blah

on my keyboard

WELZ

@ArtOfCode I'm not talking about that preference... If we implemented this idea, and my 1/2 preferred active sites were GD and MSE... let's say I wanted to change it to GD and SU... those preferences

Undo

I will note that I'm reluctant to turn autoflagging into a rewards system any more than we already have. It is, primarily, a way to get accounts for Smokey to use. Those accounts getting flags is a happy side-effect, and letting a few 'core' folks get better weighting is fine, but that's not the purpose

3

I'd rather avoid disputes that go too deep about the details of how those are allocated. Good way to tear a room apart.

ArtOfCode

@WELZ I know exactly which preferences you mean :) I'm saying it still doesn't matter how often you change those.

@Undo I think it's reasonable to let users specify "I'd rather have flags on X and Y than on Z", as long as it doesn't affect anyone else's chance of getting flags.

Undo

8:41 PM

@ArtOfCode I still contend that, statistically, that's impossible :P

actually, if you're looking at flag count network-wide for a given time period, it's possible

Prioritizing one group on a single post, though, will always de-prioritize the other groups.

The trick is giving the other folks priority - in an equal way - on other future posts.

Or past posts, doesn't matter as long as it evens out in the long run

You'd want some kind of double-weighting. So setting, say, a +1 modifier on SO will, on average, give you 1 more flag on SO and 1 less flag across the rest of the network

ArtOfCode

@Undo Actually, an even simpler way of doing it. Add a field, group_weight to UserSiteSetting. Constrain it to a decimal between 0 and 1. Once you've validated conditions and worked out whose conditions would let them flag it, pull group_weight from the UserSiteSetting that contains the site the current post is on. Get a random number. If your random is less than group_weight, you include the user in the list of potential flaggers; if it's above you don't. Shuffle and flag.

Undo

Yeah, makes sense

ArtOfCode

So effectively, the group_weight field controls the chance of you being included in the potentials. That can't affect any other users, because you're only operating on the current user's chances.

Undo

The maths don't work like that

At some level, currently, you have a x % chance of flagging a given post that your conditions are eligible for. If Bob has a higher group rate, he has >x% and you have something less than x%

You simply can't add probability to something that adds to 100% and not take it away from something else.

ArtOfCode

We've got, what, 300 flaggers? So we have a post on SO, assume all 300 are eligible to flag. Right now you've got a (ignoring core) 1/300 chance of getting picked. That method makes 1/300 your maximum chance of getting picked, but lets you scale it down - so, set 0.5 as group_weight, and you have a 1/600 chance of getting picked - made up of a 1/2 chance of being included, and a 1/300 chance of selection from the potentials.

Undo

8:49 PM

Yes. Agree. That'd be an okay system on the backend.

The question is how you constrain those settings.

ArtOfCode

You're not affecting anyone else's chances of getting picked, because the 1/300 stays constant.

Undo

eh, still disagree. But I'll leave it for now.

ArtOfCode

(okay, technically you slightly increase everyone else's chance of getting picked, but I don't think anyone's going to complain about that)

Undo

Anyway, the question is how you constrain it and balance it on the front end. If it was a simple 'your weights have to average 1', I'd go set 1.9 on SO and Drupal, and 0.1 on two obscure four-questions-a-day sites. The weights average, but it's obvious that I'd get more total flags that way.

@ArtOfCode Scaling down is fine, but it doesn't help WELZ's proposal here. He wants to scale down other sites and scale up certain sites. That's where the imbalance happens, see above

ArtOfCode

@Undo That... is indeed more complicated

Okay, makes sense why you're disagreeing then :) That system works for scaling down, but not above 1.0... hmm

somehow you have to make it "weights average 1, scaled to post count"

Undo

8:54 PM

because... yeah, if you want to decrease your chances that's easy to do now. There isn't currently a way to transfer those flags around sites

@ArtOfCode Bingo

Weighting the weights based on post count

ArtOfCode

sooo... in theory, we can just use posts/day as the metric

flags/day might be more accurate

Undo

I think so

yeah, flags/day to account for the 1-flag sites

ArtOfCode

Lemme see if I can write up some sample code...

SmokeDetector

9:17 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title: Fake stack overflow on stackverflow.com/ - illegal? by Zeke Egherman on meta.SE (@TetsuyaYamamoto)

fp- by DJMcMayhem

Riker

@SmokeDetector f

WELZ

@SmokeDetector btw they messed up on their UI... the top/side banner covers the whole page and then you have to scroll a bunch lol

ArtOfCode

@Undo try this on for size. Should work.

Still leaves the issue of how to actually implement the weightings, but that would validate them to make sure they're fair

SmokeDetector

9:36 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: Why did the LED burn? by tono on electronics.SE

DJMcMayhem

@SmokeDetector k

WELZ

@ArtOfCode @Undo either way, it would be an awesome new feature (IMHO) and I would be forever grateful :)

Undo

It's a pretty good idea, if one can get the math right

SmokeDetector

10:00 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in body, repeating characters in body: JAVA - What would be the answer of this Questions/Programs and how? by Muhammad Siddique on stackoverflow.com (@TetsuyaYamamoto)

WELZ

10:28 PM

@Undo maybe we should put on Math SE?

DJMcMayhem

@angussidney Behind only Google! :)

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer: excel command buttons to sort data by do you know da wa on stackoverflow.com (@TetsuyaYamamoto)

tpu- by DJMcMayhem

naa- by Floern

SmokeDetector

10:45 PM

API quota rolled over with 11055 requests remaining. Current quota: 19999.

math: 393
stackoverflow: 287
superuser: 83
english: 63
physics: 54
unix: 48
serverfault: 42
askubuntu: 37
apple: 28
worldbuilding: 24
electronics: 23
codegolf: 22
gis: 21
travel: 21
salesforce: 20
arduino: 18
meta: 17
gaming: 17
dba: 17
drupal: 17
ethereum: 16
mathoverflow.net: 15
es.stackoverflow: 14
bitcoin: 14
mathematica: 13
academia: 12
security: 12
wordpress: 12
ell: 11
workplace: 10
rpg: 10
graphicdesign: 10
skeptics: 9
stats: 9
scifi: 9
interpersonal: 9
diy: 9
softwareengineering: 8
money: 8

SmokeDetector

10:56 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: Error in `*tmp*`[[k]] : subscript out of bounds in R by Donut on stackoverflow.com (@TetsuyaYamamoto)

@SmokeDetector k

naa- by Rob

@SmokeDetector n

@DJMcMayhem I wouldn't say it's tpu

SmokeDetector

11:17 PM

naa by WELZ on Creating address from private key (bitcoin puzzle) [MS]

Transcript for