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12:00 PM
That seems more like a question ;)
@curiousdannii About the problem with meta discussions, I planned to create one, but you were faster than me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@labela--gotoa All good then :)
I actually did post on chat before my Meta discussion, and then I thought Meta would be a better venue
This is so much more dynamic!
And so less definitive.
I feel like discussing here and then making a well-formatted proposal on the meta is not a bad idea
12:01 PM
That's what I wanted to do, and I did, but was too slow perhaps :P
Never too late.
@Adarain It works well when those discussing it are online! Just have to be fair to those who aren't in chat
that’s why I said proposal, not finalized decision :)
This is a chopping ground.
so, what kinds of questions do we expect to see in broad categories?
12:03 PM
@Humn Well, I was a bit late, because it resulted in a bit controversial meta discussion :P
I think a general principle to follow is that most tags shouldn't have "language" or "conlang" in them. Exceptions would be when it's explicitly distinguishing conlang and natlangs, or when there's already a set phrase with "language" in it. Language change is one such phrase, so I think a language-change tag for questions on natural developments of conlangs would be good
I’d say we’ll definitely see questions about:
1) how to construct a language
2) how decisions in well-known constructed languages were made
3) how certain things in well-known conlangs work
4) various linguistics questions as relevant to conlanging
what else?
5) classification and terminology questions
- some kind of translation questions
There's also already a language-change tag at Linguistics.SE, so the parallel works
@Mithrandir Noooooo :P
12:05 PM
- rules for well-known conlangs
@curiousdannii , how i agree! "Language" is taken for granted here.
@curiousdannii My opinion on translation questions is simple: if what you're trying to say isn't in a standard dictionary for that conlang, then it's an acceptable question.
both of those are subsets of 3) no?
@Mithrandir I think that would fit your question conlang.stackexchange.com/questions/162
@Adarain possibly
12:07 PM
not sure, maybe misunderstood your question
@labela--gotoa probably, yes
I mean they’d probably all be tagged with e.g.
6) neography, ie creation of writing systems
(Although I'd prefer over ...)
@Adarain What about the question you just linked me to, which is about natural languages? That's less clearly on-topic.
Why not just ?
12:08 PM
@curiousdannii it’s linguistics relevant to conlanging though, I might be needing that info for my conlanging
would be great!
there is going to be overlap between conlang.SE and linguistics.SE
I think the same, but the tag is already defined, we could either 1) call SE moderator and ask for rename 2) edit all contained posts
is super broad
I’d much rather use the relevant subfields
@labela--gotoa or just bring it up on Constructed Languages Meta and see what people think.
12:09 PM
@Adarain , When you're right you're right.
@Mithrandir Both of the changes would require this
@Adarain Definitely. But pure linguistics questions probably should be migrated. So such questions should make the relevance to conlangs explicit. IMO your question is just on the edge of acceptability there.
This is a very difficult site to distinguish from other language-oriented sites. So much overlap.
would be so broad that every question would be tagged with it :P
This is the creative one!
12:11 PM
@labela--gotoa nope, “what is darkness in sindarin” isn’t about linguistics :P
@Adarain It isn't?
nah that’s translation stuff
@Adarain And it would be closed on Linguistics.SE.
I’d say a linguistics question is one that is asking for, well, how stuff works in the science of linguistics, not how things work in a specific language
A definition I've been trying to promote at Linguistics.SE is that linguistics concerns systems in languages. The sounds and meanings of words in languages is often not systematic, but very arbitrary.
12:13 PM
I also wouldn’t classify a grammar help question as a linguistics question; but I would classify one asking for how a grammatical feature works as such
like, “how do you use the imperfect in french” is a question, “what is the definition of the imperfective aspect” is a question; the former would be definitely off-topic here, the latter better suited for linguistics.SE but could be fine here if say, asking for whether ones own grammatical aspect falls under the definition of an imperfective
@curiousdannii , I'm not looking up your posts, but what you just said is too true. So much of language is experience rather than systematic understanding.
but not sure which
…didn’t you make a chatroom for such questions yourself?
Ex: gu + ud = guud, but you can leave it gu. It can collide with with some descriptors
@Adarain Yeah, but nobody's here
Can delete
I’d discuss it but I’m not done with the tags discussion
12:16 PM
and move
F*** again, ctrl+c didn't work here
:42750401 Sure, that's something found in natural languages. But what would it be colliding with? And why is that a problem? (Polysemy is very common!)
anyway, regarding the tags, the six categories I described above I’d tag as follows:
1) [tag:language-creation] or [tag:conlang-creation]
2) [tag:conlang-history]
3) (language-specific tags)
4) (subfield-specific tags)
5) [tag:terminology] or [tag:classification]
6) [tag:neography] or [tag:writing-systems]
TBH, I'm wondering if language-change (or whatever) would actually be too broad, too much of a meta-tag to be useful. When I see the three questions currently tagged language-development there's not a lot in common
I would, in any case, remove any form of the word "language" from tags here.
12:19 PM
@Adarain For 6: orthography would probably be best? Covers both scripts (Latin, Cyrillic, Tengwar) as well as how scripts are used in individual languages
writing-systems is broader than orthography, imo
orthography is more about the rules of the writing
not the glyphs
and neography is specifically creation of writing systems
so would be the broadest
@Adarain In my experience it's a superset of writing-systems
Like half of people I met, who speak in Polish have problems with Polish ortography
I don’t feel like asking questions about how to make glyphs for example are related to orthography though
@Adarain is more describing the tag for me than neography.
12:22 PM
I’m fine with either, or even having both
@Adarain Maybe both would be best. Linguistics.SE has both.
after all, a question about applying hangul to your conlang wouldn’t really be neography; and a question about lettershapes isn’t really writing-systems
there’s gonna be overlap but that won’t kill us
not like you hve to decide
And except for where there are synonyms in place, people will keep introducing new tags as we go. In 6 months we can reevaluate how these writing system tags etc are being used
Oh you're right. Tag cleanup is-a-coming, in due time.
Just to play my one note, or has this already been agreed upon? Any language is best off phonetic. English once was. Cantebury Tales.
languages aren’t phonetic, writing systems are [/nitpick]
english never had a consistent writing system
additionally, phonetic is basically impossible to achieve, phonemic can make sense
12:28 PM
I like you more and more.
but in doing so, you lose other things, such as spelling related words relatedly
I just like how "phonetic" isn't spelled phonetically.
Has this been settled around here already? The difference between spoken and written language?
All languages are phonetic. Unless you agree with elemtilas that the lyrics to Cage's 4'33 are a language.
phonetic writing for english would imply writing /t/ differently in the words tap, stop and water
@humn spoken/signed languages are a primary means of communication between humans. writing is a secondary way of encoding those languages
there has never in the history of mankind (that we know of) been a language that was exclusively written and not based in some way on a spoken or signed language
except conlangs, of course
you can go crazy with them :P
12:33 PM
@Adarain , agreed! And we're typing to each other now. How could this site possibly convey spoken languages?
I could record myself speaking and upload the file :)
that said, texting is a lot closer to speaking than you might realize
Thank you. I've been "texting" since 1973.
Took a few years to get emotion across with any accuracy.
if you don’t feel like watching the talk, the summary is basically texting mirrors the way we speak; written english has a very very distinct style that has basically nothing to do with how the language is actually spoken
I'm watching and listening.
But thank you for the summary! Makes it even better.
(Still watching and listening. My writing is all kinds of different than how i speak. Good talk. Not over.)
@Adarain how about pushing the discussion/proposal onto the meta?
12:48 PM
I’m writing it up as we speak
btw, how does peer-reviewing, etc. work in the priv beta?
gonna go watch some stuff now, I’ll check in periodically
@dot_Sp0T What do you mean?
The regular review queues exist, but with lower reputation levels.
That pretty much answers my query :) I was just wondering because when I just clicked on the review icon there was stuff to do, but no obvious prompt without clicking it - as opposed to the 'graduated' sites where there's a symbol next to the icon when something is to be reviewed (at least in my exp)
@Adarain seen the answer; You might've better gone with a new Meta-Q though imho
The red symbol only shows up when it's an urgent thing - i.e., there are a lot of tasks waiting.
1:00 PM
So this answer is actually summary of what has been said in the chat.
That's worthy.
It's a summary of some of what's been said, but from Adarain's own perspective. I've also been updating my post itself.
Anyone ideas for easy rep? I am not in the position to currently develop any conlanguage myself due to time constraints :/ But I'd like to get up with rep in order to start doing some community-review action, etc. and help the beta gain in quality and get to public
@dot_Sp0T I don't think there's much pressure on the review queues currently, and in general it's not good to try to get rep for rep's sake
Asking some questions that might nevertheless be useful to conlangers might be a way
The problem is that it's somewhat hard to draw a line for where things become too open-ended
1:05 PM
pretty much my issue; I got some old 2014-ish email conversations with a friend from back when we had time to discuss about languages; will likely draft up the Qs we tried to resolve ourselves back then, but that'll take quite some time to sift through the data and all :)
There is, in fact, a real easy way to gain repoints. Ignore the rest of your life and spend 3 days on each post.
@humn that's what got me my rep on the WB stack so far; that's also why I'm on said stack since almost its inauguration and still am a med-rep user :D
looking forward to see newcomers zip by me here as well
Also, questions about existing conlangs are on-topic.
@dot_Sp0T , and spend a year doing that.
I've considered posting some of those relatively-basic-but-useful questions myself but the problem is that I'm not sure what's appropriate, what isn't, and what is too broad
1:08 PM
I'm a linguist, but never really had much interest in conlangs before. But I'm finding this site quite interesting, and hopefully my linguistic knowledge will help others
@curiousdannii we might have lots of fun together
And I already know the answers to a lot of them anyways, since I've been conlanging for several years
@Gufferdk If a question ends up being closed, no real harm done. Unless all your questions get closed, and you get question banned for a while
Such a confluence of influences and experience!!!!!
1:09 PM
I was warned about getting question banned on SO when I was new
I guess I might just end up asking a couple of the smaller ones, particularly in the realm of diachronics
@Gufferdk would you mind explaining that word to me? :)
Since diachronics is one of the areas I don't know much about
Anyone got opinions about a tag named something like "unnatural-features" for questions about designing conlang features with no parallels in natural languages?
@dot_Sp0T How languages change over time
1:10 PM
Diachronics is about the evolution of natural languages
And simulating similar processes in conlangs
However on this site we may need to distinguish between languages changing through use in our real timeline, and languages changing over time in a fictional story
@curiousdannii don't use such a tag imho; any 'designed' feature by definition is not natural :/
ooooh that sounds good
Didn't know there was a word for it
@curiousdannii It doesn't even have to be over the course of a fictional story
I know a fair few people who have simulated such processes in their conlangs, just for fun, without any intent of using it in a story
@Gufferdk What do you mean? It could all be in the backstory of course. We need more stories where linguists are the heroes!
diachronic conlanging is a popular (under some definition of that word) subset of conlanging
1:12 PM
@Gufferdk True true
and if done well, produces the best results
but it’s really hard to do well
That was one of the subjects we used to discuss about; how to properly simulate language drift and such. We were thinking about creating one language we really wanna do, then do a bunch of 'easy' languages closely based on real languages (e.g. mixes of 2 languages and such) and then randomly pushing words into our orig language to have it drift through influence and such
and really time consuming to do at all
@Adarain What does it mean to conlang poorly?
I drifted from Suomi/Finnish to English in the most pathological way. One word at a time, while the grammar shifted, over the course of about 3 years.
1:15 PM
@curiousdannii hard question, that. a well-done conlang imo is one which a) has some design goals and b) manages to achieve those goals. So for example, I prefer to do naturalistic conlangs, and therefore my design goal is to create a language such that, if a linguist looked at my documentation they couldn’t tell it was a conlang
@curiousdannii to make a relex of an existing language rather than a unique language, or to break the rules/universals about how human languages work in ways that don't make sense
I guess a guide to diachronics might be very well received - but it's more of a blog-subject than a Q on here. What might work would be something along the lines of asking for proven methods to simulate language drift for a conlang, make it a series of questions with different focus - e.g. one focussing on natural drift; another focussing on influences from a second language; how to simulate drift between isolated groups speaking the same base language, etc.
@Doorknob if breaking the rules was the goal, then that would not be poorly done though
Oh, hello, @Doorknob
e.g. europan is a masterpiece and absolutely does not follow language universals
deliberately so because it is an alien lang
1:17 PM
@dot_Sp0T I think a tag would be useful because we've already had several questions about wanting features which deliberately have no natlang parallels. "unnatural-features" seems to communicate this pretty clearly to me.
@curiousdannii that sounds to me like idea-generation, e.g. asking others to think up things so I don't have to myself
there’s also jargon terms like engelang (engineered language) that deal with languages deliberately violating some universal and seeing where you can take it
It would be so much fun to come up with a language without parallel. (Or am i behind on that discussion?) I'd cheat by using what i've learned from other animals.
@dot_Sp0T Not necessarily. It could be asking for verification that you do have an unnatural feature
@Adarain That could be a good option if it's widely used enough
I don't know any conlang jargon
there’s a few classificatory terms describing conlangs; some used with conflicting meanings (artlang, and conlang itself are culprits)
1:20 PM
@curiousdannii that sounds like something we should def introduce! :D e.g. where people ask others to find issues with the language that need to be addressed
@Adarain that's true, but that makes it difficult to tell what actually counts as a conlang (is morse code a "relex"? what about english encoded in binary?)
I guess I should reword that as "breaking the rules in a way that isn't deliberate and well thought out"
Also we def need a Meta-Post on conlang jargon, anyone willing to do one?
@Doorknob Morse is an encoding of Latin. Not even a script, arguably.
Guys, I think if this site is ever gonna leave private beta, it won't be because of 150 questions, but tons of messages in chat... This site looks like it's mostly chat
@dot_Sp0T if no one’s done it by the evening I’ll take a stab at it
1:22 PM
Or if I'd start the post are there any of you wiling to contribute Jargon in form of one answer explaining one word/term?
for now I’m pretending to be busy :)
I have experience with good formats from the WB stack and am willing to keep it somewhat moderated and clean; but I don't have the conlang knowledege to provide data :(
@labela--gotoa , are you a moderator? You think like one.
@humn No, I'm just kidding
@humn Mods are blue in chat
1:24 PM
How this site is gotta leave beta, when every user just sits in chat? :P
Takes more than 3 days.
btw, is the “leaving private beta” process transparent? e.g. do we have any clue if we’re on a decent track or way too inactive?
does it even need to be active or just have good questions?
A: Are there some specific requirements/recommendations about minimal activity in private beta?

Tim PostI hate to put even arbitrary numbers out there because folks tend to fixate on the numbers instead of the exercise itself. The purpose of a private beta is to show that: The topic has enough interest to succeed The topic works pretty naturally within the framework of objective Q&A High qualit...

Beta is the best part! Two sites i've ridden public took more than 2 years each.
I don't think this site is in much danger of not making it through private beta
1:28 PM
@Adarain There is site status on Area 51 and requirement how it should look like
>27 questions per day
10 questions per day on average is a healthy beta, 5 questions or fewer per day needs some work. A healthy site generates lots of good content to make sure users keep coming back.
90% answered is a healthy beta, 80% answered needs some work. In the beta it's especially important that when new visitors ask questions they usually get a good answer.
17 avid users
191 total users
Every site needs a solid group of core users to assist in moderating the site. We recommend:
@curiousdannii Statistics show that we're not bad, but not good
But still, better than worse
SE has beaurocrats but i've discovered beating hearts at the source.
Our daily visits is super weak
But we can't raise it in private
Word is spreading.
Answer ratio would be the main thing to aim to increase at this stage I think
@labela--gotoa , and you're right. Took me inside help just to join the fun.
... and i haven't even helped with an actual post yet.
1:33 PM
@curiousdannii You're right. Thanks for reminding me, that there is no point in avoiding answering answered questions
The more the merrier!
@labela--gotoa ?
N th mnwhl, oui cn dvlop a smplstic koed lngig f r wn.
Jst a thought. Ncmpletly frmd.
> In the Archaic period (before 2000 BCE), a number of loanwords from Mixe–Zoquean languages seem to have entered the proto-Mayan language. This has led to hypotheses that the early Maya were dominated by speakers of Mixe–Zoquean languages, possibly the Olmec.
> In the case of the Xincan and Lencan languages, on the other hand, Mayan languages are more often the source than the receiver of loanwords. Mayan language specialists such as Campbell believe this suggests a period of intense contact between Maya and the Lencan and Xinca people, possibly during the Classic period (250–900).
Quoting in chat is glitched
1:40 PM
From Wikipedia. I love how languages can reveal history that would otherwise be hidden!
Like DNA!
Like English! So much of English is illiterate French and German.
From articulate, though illiterate, soldiers who crossed enemy lines centuries ago.
Talk about contrived languages! English has to rank near the top.
English is a very fine language with a rich history. Though it is possibly a creole.
@humn reminds me of something I once did
Q: Do we need both the [klingon] and [klingon-language] tags?

MithrandirI just got a suggested edit that added the klingon tag to a question where I had included the klingon-language tag. As of right now, klingon has one question in it and klingon-language has two. These seem... kinda redundant to me; why do we have both? Which should we use primarily?

I'd say we've got consensus here
@curiousdannii , I know someone who speaks Pidgin English. Talk about redundancy.
@dot_Sp0T , I'd hate to do it here, but this place almost begs for it.
1:54 PM
I just realised that I even coded a function to load/export dictionaries
@humn also not entirely sure what you mean but 'tis a private beta - nobody will know for at least a year
@dot_Sp0T Private beta only lasts 2-3 weeks
@curiousdannii okay, nobody will know for a forthnight
All this chatctivity has to impress anyone watching. This is where the stew steeps. This is the liveliest forum i've seen yet.
@humn you oughta check out the worldbuilding stack then :D
@dot_Sp0T , don't make me stray further!
@dot_Sp0T , I didn't look. I'm already a stray here. What an attractive nuisance!
I create words, not worlds.
2:22 PM
@HyperNeutrino Now I realised I posted my comment in wrong place, since you already mentioned data-transfer formats in the answer ,-, sorry
2:54 PM
@labela--gotoa really... Don't worry about those stats.
@Mithrandir What do you mean?
They don't matter at all during the private beta and not much during the public beta.
They're obsolete, essentially.
Hit the daily rep cap again :(
Can anyone help me, how can I improve this question?
@labela--gotoa To start with, I'd remove the question about whether it's necessary to learn conlangs.
I still think it's fundamentally flawed though. It may have been upvoted on Area 51, but Area 51 users rarely downvote or close example questions enough
3:06 PM
@curiousdannii I can't delete a question that has answers
3:25 PM
Night all
I'm unable to because it has 2 upvoted answers and I can't do anything to fix it
@labela--gotoa , link? (I didn't find it the lazy way.)
@humn I gave it
Not on my screen.
@humn the word "this" is blue; it's a link
3:38 PM
(Wasn't showing up that way here. Now i'm there. Hang on.)
Gratuitous video while reading:
@labela--gotoa, the easiest edit would be to change "why learn conglangs" to "how to learn conglangs"
@humn That would change the whole question. All answers would become offtopic by instant. That could cause even more downvotes
Possibly. But it also invites creativity rather than dismissal.
. . . okay digging deeper . . .
Also, the question would become offtopic itself. Such questions are not welcome here
. . . still learning . . .
Maybe "when to learn"
3:47 PM
But I think I have no reason to do so
Any change could increase attention, that is, give me downvotes
while I still earned rep from this question
not much, but +1
It seems a perfect question for the site.
Perhaps too soon.
I don't expect too many more -votes.
for me too. I think that this close reason should be less used on this site
it would fit SO, but not CL
It's right on the border of meta.
We went through something similar at Puzzling.SE (my home base).
My home used to be SO, now it's rather PPCG
That is, Programming Puzzles and CodeGolf
3:51 PM
Here's the example from Puzzling. It got downvoted instantly, mainly because people thought it was meta.
Q: How to choose the best answer in puzzles?

manshuI gave my friends a lateral thinking puzzle There are six eggs in the basket. Six people each take one of the eggs. How can it be that one egg is left in the basket? My intended answer was But one of my friend answered Clearly my friend's answer is more creative then my own (as late...

@labela--gotoa , nice to know you can wrangle code.
(Looking into your apparent past, @labela--gotoa. Back with a better-suited response.)
im going for now
Don't be embarrassed!
I see how literally you take things, @labela--gotoa. You refine this site, and might not get fully rewarded.
See you next time, anyway.
2 hours later…
5:51 PM
any ideas why I always have a red dot there?
if I click it it usually then says that there’s nothing in the queue
6:08 PM
The red dot indicates that there are a lot waiting for review.
...shows up when there are three, I think.
I currently see the red dot, but upon clicking it the queue is empty
refreshing the site changes nothing
6:36 PM
@Adarain then maybe you've already reviewed the available ones; or it's edits on your stuff maybe
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