TRPG General Chat - 2017-11-10 (page 1 of 2)

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12:05 AM

So... level transitions

I was thinking I could mix it up a little each time. There's 6 levels in total, but it'd get a bit boring if they just "found the staircase down" each time

I was thinking one could be like a false trap - A plinth with a button on top. When they hit it, the plinth starts rotating, and a ticking sound starts. Nothing else in the room. The door also closes behind them

Each time they hit the button, the timer resets. As it gets closer to the end, the ticking gets faster and faster

But if they leave it, it opens the staircase down

Another might be that the floor simply gives way bneath them

TIL golarion has a language called canto: "Communication is achieved though percussive hits on body parts, weapons, or cavern walls, and is designed to travel long distances through echoing tunnels." I think that's super beautiful, and now I'm picturing a drow or a little gremlin rhythmically jigging and slapping themselves all over. It's also fun to picture how they'd do that and convey frustration at you laughing at it.

Steve Hickman Hambone Artist - live in concert!

@Ben perfect! :D

imgur introduced me to just a part of that performance via a gif: imgur.com/gallery/rfLwkD4

(wait, not that one.... don't know which one now Dx)

youtube.com/… but it was this part onwards for a few seconds :D

12:27 AM

@Ben I'm thinking of Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis.

In one scenario, he has to traverse between several floors of a building.

@doppel yeah I was thinking of the same one

Methods include moving a totem pole into place and climbing it to the level above; tipping over a bookcase to smash a hole through the floor to the level below; sliding down a coal chute (and/or using gum to make his feet sticky so he can walk back up it), climbing a rope to get through the hole he smashed with the bookcase...

@doppelspooker what is "golarion" ?

@trogdor pathfinder's standard campaign setting

In Riven, there's a fiendish rotating room puzzle.

12:30 AM

@doppelspooker ah ok

I once ran a dungeon where an angel appeared at the end of each level, and revealed the next level entrance only after the party answered a question about the setting/plot.

@BESW Well, I was thinking of adding an angel - but only as a means for the party to get in/out of the dungeon to get back to town for supplies and such

@doppelspooker when I first read it I thought you were saying "Girallon"

@BESW But that gives me an idea... perhaps to open one of the lower level (perhaps the gate to hell) they need to make a sacrifice of some kind..?

the four armed gorilla monster things

XD

but of course then I looked at it and was like,... no that is spelled wrong, I don't remember exactly how to spell four armed gorilla monster but it isn't that XD

so I was slightly disappointed and assumed you meant something else

12:58 AM

Anyone else excited to get Xanathar's Guide?

@Ryan kindasorta. I'm taking a bit of a "wait and see" on that one

Why's that?

I pre-ordered it so I can pick it up tomorrow

I'm hoping they'll have some useful bits in there, but SCAG isnt' that helpful for me and Volo's was a minor disappointment even

@Ryan Yeah, but tempered with disappointment about some of their design decisions.

(they really went all-in one-note for orcs and gnolls, going so far with the latter as to leave out a PC statblock for them despite having a pile of other monstrous races in there)

1:01 AM

Ah I didn't buy SCAG or Volos. Xanathar's looks much better and more robust to me

@Miniman what design decisions are you disappointed with?

SCAG I have for the class options and spells

and that's really about it

@Ryan Primarily the inclusion of the ~~hexblade~~ abomination.

Nerfing Storm Herald in the same book is just salt in the wound.

It's like, ok, you wanna do some power creep. That's cool, I get that.

hexblade abomination? How do you know what the final Hexblade is going to be? I haven't found any leaks

But if you're doing that, why nerf the stuff that was actually balanced? I mean, damn.

@Ryan giantitp.com/forums/…

@Ryan giantitp.com/forums/…

@Ryan Buried somewhere in here too, but I don't really recommend digging through it.

I don't read Unearthed Arcana which I guess is where some of this is coming from so these posts do me little good. Guess Ill just wait and see tomorrow

1:08 AM

The Arcane Archer is a bit of a letdown too - the fact that they stuck to "you're an arcane archer 2/rest and a boring normal fighter with no subclass the rest of the time" means I'll probably never play one, and the arcane archer concept is something I really like.

There's lots of others that I feel are pretty meh, but I don't care enough about to, well, care.

@Ryan I'm solidly in the 'meh' camp. Part of that stems from the "I don't really care for more than 4 classes and a flavorful MM," the other part stems from the "I coordinate and GM AL, so I must familiarize myself with it." So it kinda feels like work.

MM?

@Ryan Monster Manual.

Oh yeah, the other thing I really hate is the ~~Favoured Soul~~ Divine Soul sorcerer. But that one was inevitable.

has anyone come up with a decent gnoll-as-PC-race setup for 5e yet, even?

@Shalvenay Well, given the other monster races in Volo's, the bar is set pretty low.

1:17 AM

Hmm. Arcane archer in Fate might be fun.

Sorry everyone, I'm being super salty atm.

@Miniman Mind if I borrow some? My chips are a bit bland

@Shalvenay Surprisingly, dndwiki's entry is not bad - a little boring, but includes the classic gnoll trait, and is if anything more under- than over- powered.

user image

I guess since I mostly play AL rules when in 5E I'm just looking forward to some new options and spells and such

1:21 AM

@Miniman What's the classic gnoll trait?

@Ryan Funny. I'm totally on the "this PHB has way more than I'll ever need/want in it" end of the spectrum.

@BESW The Rampage ability. Maybe classic was the wrong word.

@Miniman +1/+1 for every creature that blocks it?

reading Unearthed Arcana right now for the first time and a bit disappointed in College of Whispers. I thought it was going to be more about deception. Adding damage to my melee weapon is junk

@nitsua60 I never knew you were a magic guy.

1:24 AM

Oh wow... I just realised I have 9 Gold badges...

All awarded for "Famous Question"

Nice!

I apparently ask really good questions sometimes haha

@Miniman My last game was last millennium =)

Or I just use keywords that are ambiguous with video-games haha

Anyone know the numbers for which would be better for Disguise (Persuasion/Deception) between +2 to Charisma or Advantage to checks (Actor feat)?

I feel like +2 to Charisma is probably more consistent

1:35 AM

156

A: How does rolling two dice and taking the highest affect the average outcome?

All this does is linearly adjust the normally-flat 5% probability for each number to occur. What results is a increased or decreased probability of any number above or below average to occur, positively for advantage and negatively for disadvantage. See this AnyDice function set, which yields the...

Yeah the +2 would definitely be more consistent. Advantage really only allows for a better roll

second chart, take a look at where the vertical distance between curves is <10%.

In those areas you get a better expected outcome from the +2 than from advantage.

In my experience, there's no guarantee that Advantage will even work out, but most of the time it's only used to see if you can get a critical

(Advantage is almost always going to give you a better result; you're not often making checks where you need a 19 on the die to succeed, IME.)

One point I find interesting is that +2 means things that are currently impossible for you become possible, if unlikely. Advantage can never do that.

1:39 AM

@Miniman Yeah. "Oh, I rolled a 9... damn. Oh wait! I have +2! I got an 11!"

@nitsua60 I don't follow this

That;s always a good feeling

Also, if you can find some other way of gaining advantage, advantage won't do anything for you. With +2, not only does it stack with advantage, it stacks if you find some other way to get +2.

well wait +2 to Charisma so +1 to to the bonus it gives.

I'm now level 4 with this character and thinking Charisma of 16 to Charisma of 18 so going from +3 to +4. So my total Performance and Persuasion would be +6. Or I can do the Actor Feat which leaves it at +5 but with advantage

@Ben I actually meant more like "I can hit DC 30 now!" Advantage never increases your ceiling.

1:42 AM

@Miniman That too haha

Oh, c'mon. A copy of the OGL is not a "reward" for kickstarting you....

@Ryan I'd take the stat increase

@Ryan the stat-bump also applies to more things than the feat.

yeah I know that. More bardic die, bumps DC spell save and spell atk bonus

(There are some CHA saves I'd like to be surer of making, for instance.)

1:43 AM

While your bonus is already pretty high, a boost is almost guaranteed to do better over advantage

I was just curious between it and the advantage for curiosity sake

@Ryan Wait, you're a Bard? Definitely the Cha increase, then.

I was planning to. I was asking for the sake of knowing the percent difference

(I mean, I would definitely recommend it. Obviously you can do whatever you want :P )

@nitsua60 Actually, I don't follow this either... How is a 1 meant to be guaranteed for all three situations?

1:48 AM

If you're looking at the second chart, it's plotting the probability of rolling at least X.

"at least", right. That makes sense

I only skimmed it haha

@Ben -- btw, are you free now/this time tomorrow for that matter?

hey there @nitsua60

@Shalvenay This time tomorrow maybe.

@Shalvenay hiya

@nitsua60 how're things going?

1:50 AM

@nitsua60 Also, huh?

So, one of the unique cultural things in boarding schools is that sometimes the headmaster just declares a holiday. Any reason or no reason. Just found out tomorrow's one. Don't have to work!

(Will, though.)

@Miniman Sorry, just got an e-mail about a KS shipping. 4 items, one of which is the OGL.

hah enjoy the vacation!

Boxed set, yes. That's a reward. Wall-sized map. Sure, that's a cool reward. .pdfs of all the stuff. Thank you, that should be standard by now, but let's call it a reward. The OGL? That's reward #4?

@nitsua60 go figure. will you be around tomorrow evening then?

@Ben you mind making a 5th and a 7th level char for D&D 5e then? (we probably won't need the 7th level it looks like, tho)

@Shalvenay No--it's my daughters' dance recital =)

1:57 AM

@nitsua60 aw, shucks

Hmm... my e-mail about the headmaster's holiday and my FLGS e-mail saying my XGtE is being held at the counter arrived within minutes of each other. I have long suspected, what I now consider confirmed: the headmaster's a gamer.

@nitsua60 Ah, yes, Xenophon's Greek-to-Etruscan dictionary.

As invaluable in this day and age as ever!

In recent times, mostly used by archaeologists and historical gamers.

The headmaster did study Greek during his time here, and likely Biblical Greek in divinity school....

2:05 AM

They do say "LARP what you know."

(Don't they?)

In other news, a friend brought me a set of dice from his trip to Mongolia. They're goat-knuckles. They land in one of five orientations, with highly-unequal probabilities.

I'm dying to find the right spot to use them.

Awesome.

@Shalvenay I'll just use Toby again haha

@nitsua60 have photo?

@Ben ah, that'll work if I can wrangle a 3rd

2:13 AM

@Ryan Not of mine, but these are they:

woah! those are die?

The largest species of tegu lizard, this beautiful Argentine black and white tegu (Salvator merianae) is our Spotting of the Day! Tegu lizards are members of the family Teiidae, and are native to Central and South America. https://buff.ly/2maeUrK

Tweeted by projectnoah on November 9, 2017 at 11:44 PM

looks like voodoo stuff

@nitsua60 "highly unequal" indeed haha

@BESW man this one looks like it is a cousin to the monitor lizards here

2:16 AM

@Ryan Most of the earliest dice were bones, and pretty much anything to do with probability has at some point been associated with some form of spiritual insight.

@Ryan yessir =)

At this point I think it's safe to say that Toby exists outside of space and time haha @Shalvenay @Miniman @daze413

'The Gurt Dog' - a Black Dog that haunts the Quantock Hills in Somerset. Unlike most of its kin, this Dog is said to protect wandering children. Parents would allow their children to play unsupervised in the hills, believing the Gurt Dog would watch over them! #FolkloreThursday

Tweeted by P_J_Richards on November 9, 2017 at 9:12 AM

@Ben xD it's no worry -- inter-campaign continuity is not a concern on the tabletop

@nitsua60 Reminds me of Stardust

@BESW Good dog!

2:19 AM

Toby's backstory: a Dragon borne warrior built on the values forged in battle, and now really just does not know what the f*** is going on, but somehow rolls with it.

(language...)

@Adeptus I made a PC a long time ago inspired by a similar account of good dogs.

@BESW weak against metaphysical barriers; so ignores physical obstacles but if I draw a salt-circle on the ground around me Grim Jim's left pacing the outside?

@nitsua60 Yup. Probably also has trouble with thresholds, running water, blessed areas, etc.

I left it deliberately vague as to the specifics, to be discovered during play.

@BESW cool.

2:26 AM

Does anyone have 20 mins up their sleeve (maybe more depending on who's interested)?

@Ben maybe :)

@Ben I have almost exactly 29 minutes I'm happy to kill.

I need to distract myself a bit, and was thinking of possibly playing a round of KoM

The Back Room: Live Tabletop Games

A space for online tabletop gaming.

KoM?

King of Monsters haha

2:28 AM

AKA Long Live the King of Monsters!, I assume.

Indeedy

wouldn't mind joining that

I'm in.

@Ben Ah, LLKM =D

2:59 AM

@BESW just to clarify, If I have breath weapon, and Horns/teeth, do I get +1 to the breath weapon? or is that a "different" attack?

it applies to all of them

Nice

@Ben Toby is like Link and Doom Guy, who spawns when he is needed

@daze413 I'm also reminded of one of the Wk40K Primarchs - he's trapped in the warp until demons invade, and he is summoned to the battlefield. But as soon as the last demon is slain... he vansihes

@Ben I have heard of that guy, but the name escapes me

3:07 AM

@daze413 Same lol. I saw a parody of it, where he gets summoned, followed by an epic murder montage, then just stops, pulls all his mean aside and tells them to stop - if they trap the demon instead of killing it, he can stay

Then someone wasn't paying attention and murders it anyway

"OH GADDA--" [pop]

@Ben All bonuses to an action apply to all instances of that action. So attack bonuses apply to all attacks. Narrate how ridiculously awesome that is.

(eg, how you're using your breath weapon for a point-blank hit while chewing on your opponent's face.)

"He spews horns over the battlefield"

lol

Exactly.

(In our last Saturday game, one character had a van with an airbrush painting on the side that showed a dragon vomiting forth fire and a barbarian.)

the fire was rainbow colored as well

don't dare to forget that part :P

3:10 AM

The barbarian may have been rainbow-colored too. We aren't sure.

I think some may have gotten on to the barbarian

I guess we will never know

@BESW Why does this seem so generically familiar? haha

I mean, I picked out features of airbrushed vans and just shoved them together pretty much

And I deliberately misheard the modifiers, so instead of a dragon breathing rainbow fire, and a barbarian--we had a dragon, breathing rainbow fire and a barbarian.

yes this too

I also liked that change so I did not protest that one bit

3:18 AM

@BESW I am now imaging "It's raining men" just with screaming barbarians slamming down on the traffic of the San Francisco Bridge

5

I'd just like to say that it makes me very happy to see people having so much fun playing a game I designed.

@Ben fantastic imagery there

@Ben Kaldor Drago!

@daze413 Aha!

Which Primarch was that? I feel like it was the Grey Knights..?

I don't know heh My knowledge of 40k is all second hand from friends talking while I do something else

3:36 AM

@daze413 Yeah. It was the Grey Kights

I always enjoy the 40K lore

warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo

@BESW I thoroughly do enjoy it. It's quick, easy, and most importantly, pure chaos!

I'm thinking about some changes to make it simpler (but not less chaotic) and faster (mostly eliminating "nothing happens" rolls by having failures backfire).

@BESW The base rules, or another variant?

The base rules.

Fair enough

How much testing has the Mech Variant got so far?

Very very little.

3:49 AM

hey there @Erics

@Ben like, a couple games of it

Egh

I'm thinking that if you fail an attack, your opponent can maneuver for free.

Thoughts?

I kinda like that

gives some action economy to it

As it is, maneuvers don't get used much except in really extreme edge cases.

3:53 AM

yeah,....

@BESW Yeah. I mean, Transform or Roar are probably the most used

this seems like it could at least partially fix that

roar only gets used if something else does though

I could just throw out Special Features and Maneuvers entirely, but that seems... sad.

Nah I do like them... it really can turn the tide and change the flow of the game

And I mean, you can't make Godzilla with only a "Breath Attack" and "Gargantuan". He needs his Roar!

@BESW And I like there being two "axes" along which to consider actions. But I think you're right: as observed, maneuvers don't get much play, so some tweak is needed.

3:57 AM

Making maneuvers more powerful would be difficult and overwhelming, I think.

Though speaking of which, perhaps the Roar rule might need to be revisited too. It's only useful for dig or flight

So instead of making them more attractive to use, I think the key is to make them easier to use.

Yeah

@BESW makes sense

@Ben It works on Target Acquisition, too.

3:58 AM

Ah right, yeah

Never mind then haha

And if you've got a fight with nothing but Roaring monsters, well, that's hilarious so mission accomplished anyway.

we had 2 out of 3 on that this game

@BESW You'd just be flying to get some distance from the noise

all the other specials were transform

also 2/3

4:00 AM

yes that too

this game has some weird and hilarious RNG potential

Perhaps you could come up with a different variant; the opposite of Détente? Cos sometimes when playing the Base it turns into a Revolution anyway (Definitely did for us)

@Ben Please elaborate.

So in our instance, we had 2 players with only 3 features. Head, body and Special. Then my character had 6 (I think).

So, for example, maybe have a variation that states everyone can choose an additional 2 features?

It'd make the game a bit longer, but more even (Like Détente)

@Ben I might be interested in a "draft" variant.

Hmm.

4:05 AM

I.e. all players participate in a serpentine draft.

serpentine draft?

Describe "draft" in this context, please.

Make some of your monster choices aware of the others' abilities?

Ahah.

people take turns picking features I assume

4:05 AM

So I've got two ideas. One is Draft and the other is Explosion.

@nitsua60 So, you decide who chooses first, then everyone goes around the table and picks according to what everyone else has chosen so far?

@BESW Player A simply chooses their feature from among all lists, then B, then C, ... then C, then B, then A, then A, then B, then C, ..., then C, then B, then A.

@Ben Right.

Draft: Everyone takes turns picking one ability at a time, as above.

Haven't thought about double-picks, or picks-w/out-replacement?

@nitsua60 That's a better order too.

4:07 AM

(I.e. can one choose an ability someone else has already chosen? Can one choose an ability twice?)

Explosion: Roll for abilities as normal and see who has the most features. The other monsters roll until they have at least that many features. Repeat until all monsters have the same number of features (if lots of 6s are rolled, this could take a while).

@BESW I figured this was what Explosion meant XD

@trogdor Serpentine is the reversing of draft-order every round.

ah ok

@BESW I like that

But I'd daresay you'd probably want to cap it somewhere. A repetitive game like this that drags on too long might cause people to lose interest

Perhaps advising this be played with a cap, or with Collateral might be good

4:11 AM

Fifty-five is probably a good cap =)

lol

@nitsua60 Your cap on the total number of abilities in play is the number of years since 1956, the English distribution of the original Godzilla film in which "King of the Monsters!" was coined.

That was definitely intentional.

Meaning thi cap should increase with every year

@Ben Just like the movies, it gets more ridiculous with time.

4:15 AM

All in favor?

Lol

@Ben Not here. Mainsite. That's where we vote =D

@nitsua60 Yeah, this is a secret cabal controlling every aspect of our lives. Voting wouldn't make any sense.

Oh, @BESW while we're on cleanup, you may need to allow for turn order for games both sides of the equator

:P

Eh, it's not a game that needs to cover every possible contingency.

[Con-text-ual sarcasm yaaaaay]

4:22 AM

After all, chat-based games don't make sense for clockwise/widdershins anyway.

4:34 AM

@Besw maybe add the year the movie was released. Not everyone would have such knowledge :P

voracious learners would...

Haha

4:53 AM

Leo: This lunar cycle marks the start of an unsettled period when you'll be possessed by one of the more colorfully-martyred saints.

Tweeted by Sorrowscopes on November 9, 2017 at 5:48 PM

2 hours later…

6:55 AM

weren't they all pretty colorfully martyred?

7:28 AM

There's a big difference between "beheaded" and "beheaded and then a dove flew out of her neck," I think.

Or "killed by arrows, resurrected, then burned alive." Or just "eaten by lions" or "rolled down a hill in a barrel of knives."

8:04 AM

ok I get that yeah

makes sense

8:28 AM

Hah, I figured out how to make the Mutant Bomb Variant nice and simple:

> MUTANT BOMB VARIANT
(Prevents Feature imbalance by giving everyone extra Features.) Whenever a 6 is rolled on a Feature Table, every player follows its instructions rather than just the player who rolled the 6.

9:05 AM

ooh nice

but doesn't that mean someone can roll a 6, and everyone who didn't gets one more feature than them?

Everyone gets the effects of the 6, including the one who rolled it.

yes

but at the part where they rolled a 6 did everyone else get a normal roll?

as well as the 6 effect?

Hmm, yes. Good point. [thinks]

I'll figure that out later when my brain's more worky.

yeah that was what I was saying

user image

9:19 AM

lol

I can only assume that giving an extra roll to the person who rolled 6 is the only way to keep it literally balanced

user image

course that obviously slows everything down a lot

> MUTANT BOMB VARIANT
(Prevent Feature imbalance by sharing 6s.) Whenever a 6 is rolled on a Feature table, every other player rolls on that same table again. Yes, if the new rolls include 6s, this gets scary fast.

oh yeah that works

just a simple re-wording and it is good, imagine that

oh,... except for tables where you don't re-roll on the same table

this is confusing, we can definitely wait till tomorrow to get this worked out

> MUTANT BOMB VARIANT
(Prevent Feature imbalance by sharing 6s.) Whenever a 6 is rolled on a Feature table, every other player rolls on a table of their choice. Yes, if the new rolls include 6s, this gets scary fast.

2 hours later…

11:38 AM

Were there camels in Roman Britain? A brief note on the nature and context of the London camel remains — new post by me :) http://www.caitlingreen.org/2017/11/were-there-camels-in-roman-britain.html

Tweeted by caitlinrgreen on November 8, 2017 at 8:46 PM

BRB building a time machine so I can fetch a giant war otter to ride into Valhalla. http://www.newsweek.com/wolf-sized-otter-formidable-jaws-was-dominant-predator-china-six-million-years-706197

Tweeted by lasrina on November 9, 2017 at 5:16 PM

4th edition D&D is the opposite of vampire the masquerade. It is a decent game most people misremember was garbage.

Tweeted by skinnyghost on November 9, 2017 at 6:41 AM

If 4e had been OGL'd it would have been a juggernaut. The core game was that good. https://twitter.com/skinnyghost/status/928512764263284737

Tweeted by rdonoghue on November 9, 2017 at 2:24 PM

@BESW What's bad about The Masquerade? I don't really know anything about it except I have a few acquaintances who keep lauding it.

@BESW OGL?

Open Gaming License.

The thing that let third parties publish their own D&D 3.5 material, and let Paizo turn Pathfinder into their own brand without significantly altering the core mechanics.

ooooh

why would they do that in one case and not the other?

Maybe they disliked how Pathfinder took a slice of the DnD pie.

11:52 AM

Business reasons, mostly poorly thought out and not really understanding the sea change in the RPG community.

Why is Pathfinder called Pathfinder, btw?

The OGL is why the d20 System exploded with content.

The d20 System became the de facto engine for anybody's new game, because it was free to use and everyone already knew it.

mmm

...this meant it inevitably became associated with cheap, shoddy cash-grab games.

that kinda sucks that 4e would have had a chance if that was the case

11:54 AM

Well, we have 13th Age.

...which I still haven't played, but it does seem good.

to live on after being dumped for 5th edition I mean

13th Age is still a d20 System OGL game at its core.

@kviiri but 13th Age is my "3.5 got fixed" game

It's just taken some of the lessons learned from 4e and retroactively shoehorned them into the d20 context.

it isn't really a "replacement for 4e"

in my opinion

11:55 AM

Isle of Emuu Sacred home to all beasts. Should a human enter, they will lose their human form and memories.

Tweeted by evelmiina on November 10, 2017 at 1:06 AM

I see way more 3.5 in 13th Age (except implemented better and with some of the ideas I disliked got tossed out) than I do any amount of 4e in it

As for what's wrong with V:tM, I've never played it. I'm given to understand that it's not very coherent, structurally, and that most of its appeal lies in the flavor it gives people permission to indulge in--and its successful implementation depends largely on the players, rather than the system itself.

@BESW Ah, that's something I can understand, yep.

I think Deadlands has a bit of a similar issue.

12:28 PM

@doppelspooker [wave]

@BESW Hi! :D

Will we see you tomorrow at Geek Night?

Yes!

Yey!

If you don't have any other plans, I'm thinking about testing out my Danger Patrol hack and my newest version of Long Live the King of Monsters!

2 hours later…

2:57 PM

@BESW Both sound fabulous.

@nitsua60 and other D&D 5e players, we've been getting a steady stream of "well here's how i personally would rule it" answers on D&D 5e questions, which are an issue because... well, we don't really care how an individual would rule it. we care about gathering expert guidance on how the rules play out, or how the fiction works, or good subjective experienced-based advice on what works well.

3

it's been on my mind to create some kind of meta guidance for why this is an issue for us, and came back to mind this week since one person thought i expected them to be a rules lawyer when i told them they needed to actually provide some guidance w/r/t the rules, not just their opinion.

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