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1:36 AM
@ShmuelBrill Incidentally, I'm related to the author of that book you linked to in the other room.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:57 AM
@l You won't talk, but you will award bounties? judaism.stackexchange.com/badges/32/altruist?userid=1172
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12 hours later…
4:17 PM
@msh210 what is the purpose of the "Parashat Hashavu'a Warmup"?
 
4:44 PM
@ShmuelBrill See the comments on this question: meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/520/…
@ShmuelBrill However, since (AFAIK) it's completely unused and has been since its inception, I think it can probably be discarded. Pinging @IsaacMoses (who I guess will see this at some later point, since his access to chat is, er, not).
 
5:29 PM
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Q: Is a question about the Shetar Mechirat Chametz appropriate on J.SE?

l 'I am in need of your help on a project that I am working on. I am attempting to translate the Yiddish phrases which can be found in the document used to sell chametz to a non-Jew into Hebrew. The document I am working with, by HRH"G Avraham Aharon Yudelewitz ztz"l (author of Shu"t Bet Av), is spr...

 
Hm, the weekly chat should be starting now. I can't stick around for it, but am here just to announce:
 
@msh210 maybe that would have been more appropriate for Tazria-Metzora! :)
 
@Alex True!
 
@ShmuelBrill Yeah, I saw something about it on Shturem, I think. It's a wonder that they were able to recognize the handwriting, though - the copy on HB is pretty poor.
 
Well, I guess I'll do this anyway (but leave soon and likely not officially end the hour):
Begin Parashat Hashavua' Chat #15 - Vayikra 5772
And start off with a question, too: why are some korbanos discussed, then the t'rumas hadeshen (at the start of Tzav), then more korbanos? Seems odd.
 
5:42 PM
@msh210 I seem to recall someone saying that Vayikra is basically addressed to the people at large, while Tzav is talking to the kohanim, telling them what they have to do with each type of korban.
So it would make sense to put terumas hadeshen at the beginning of the kohen's manual.
And come to think of it, that distinction is supported by the way the respective sections are phrased: everything in Vayikra is introduced with דבר אל בני ישראל, while in Tzav it's דבר אל אהרן ואל בניו.
 
@Alex I think that is pshat in the psukim.
 
btw, hello all - nice-sized crowd this week, for the first time in a while!
2
 
what is the literal meaning of reiach nichoach
 
How about this: the first part of the parsha says: zot torat ha'olah this is the laws of the olah. This is paralleled by later zot torat hamincha / asham / shelamim. however, the later ones stay on topic, while the olah paragraph talks about terumat hadeshen instead. Why? What happened to the laws of the olah?
That's Vayikra 6:2 6:7 7:1 and 7:11
whoops. i just forgot what parsha we were doing this week
I think msh210 through me off when he mentioned terumat hadeshen above.
 
@DoubleAA I figured you were looking ahead because of the broader ordering issue.
Can anyone answer :3906882 's question?
 
5:51 PM
@MonicaCellio Yes that's why my book was open there, but I think I'll save this question for next week.
 
err, Adam Mosheh's - the link didn't work.
 
@AdamMosheh The most basic meaning is something like "a sweet smell." Rashi consistently explains it as "it is a pleasure to Me that I commanded and My will is done." There's also the idea in halachah that it requires the limbs of the sacrifice to be placed on the fire raw, rather than being cooked elsewhere and then brought onto the altar (i.e., the "sweet smell" of it being roasted by the fire has to take place there and nowhere else)
 
@Alex nichoach means sweet? more like: pleasing
 
@DoubleAA Yeah, you're right - I guess I was thinking of the modern Hebrew meaning of it
 
@Alex I've usually heard this as "pleasing odor" but wasn't sure it was literal. That the sweetness comes from the act, not necessarily the physical odor, is interesting.
 
5:55 PM
@MonicaCellio So yeah, apparently it's both - there's the pleasure that Hashem gets from our act, and then there's the actual odor of the burning korban
 
I'm trying to remember -- I think the incense offering is also a reiach nichoach sometimes, but is the mincha offering ever described that way? Cooking grain doesn't have the same pleasing aroma that meat barbecue does, I wouldn't think (bread yes, but not just meal)?
 
Ibn Ezra says nichoach comes from the same root as menucha meaning resting.
 
@MonicaCellio It is (2:2) - the Gemara derives from the fact that the same term is used for animal, bird, and meal offerings that Hashem is equally pleased by all of them ("whether one does a lot or a little, as long as he directs his heart towards Heaven").
 
Ibn Ezra to the first place Nichoach appears, in Bereishit 9:21 hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9597&st=&pgnum=133
 
@DoubleAA Thanks! I was looking to see whether he says anything on it, but I mistakenly searched on ריח ניחוח and forgot that there it's הניחוח.
 
5:59 PM
He says this word means the smell causes the divine anger to "rest".
 
@Alex thanks. And it's not always "more or less", either; sometimes birds and meal are commanded in their own rights, after all. God is pleased with the act in all cases even though the physical odors are of different strengths/pleasing-ness.
 
@MonicaCellio True. I think the Gemara is talking about the case where someone brings one or another of them as a voluntary korban, though.
 
Wow, I'm being inarticulate today. Sorry. I meant that if the reiach nichoach were just about the scent of lamb bbq, we might expect some offerings to be better than others. But becasue it's not just about the smell, they're all good.
@Alex ah, ok.
 
@Alex Alex is referencing the last mishna in menachot mechon-mamre.org/b/h/h52.htm (it's 13:11 at the very bottom of the link)
 
@DoubleAA thanks for the link
 
6:03 PM
Which actually brings me to something I've been wondering about. Rashi to 2:1 says that a minchah is usually a poor person's korban, and that's why the Torah distinguishes it with the term nefesh - he's offering his very soul along with the flour. But practically speaking, since a minchah had to consist of high-quality flour, would it really have been any more affordable than a bird?
 
@Alex and how expensive is frankencense? (not always mentioned, but sometimes)
 
The more so since Rambam (Maaseh Hakorbanos 13:12) says that the normal way was to bring a minchah in a metal utensil, which would then be donated to the Beis Hamikdash (as a service vessel) along with the minchah
@MonicaCellio Also true - I forgot about that
 
@Alex How high quality was the flour? Would our regular all purpose flour be good enough? I'm guessing yes.
 
@Alex was this donation of the vessel common, or an extra level of offering?
 
@DoubleAA The Torah says סולת, which means fine flour. Dunno how modern flour compares to that.
 
6:06 PM
@DoubleAA our modern flour may be higher quality than anything pre-industrial (dunno). What distinguishes fine flour from ordinary flour?
 
Do I see VRAM here?
 
@Alex I don't see that in the rambam there. Did you get the right link?
 
fine ?= finely milled? Or is the plant/processing somehow different
 
@MonicaCellio Rambam starts off by saying סדר הבאת המנחה כיצד - how was the order of bringing a minchah done. So it sounds like it was SOP
 
@Alex hmm, and a metal vessel? That's more expensive than clay...
 
6:07 PM
@MonicaCellio I always assumed it was how finely you filtered out the bran and twigs and such. Basically they didn't like whole wheat flour much.
 
So yeah, at that point the bird is looking competitive.
 
@DoubleAA He says מביא אדם סולת מתוך ביתו בקלתות של כסף או של זהב או של שאר מיני מתכות כלי שהוא ראוי לכלי שרת - a person would bring fine flour from his house in a gold or silver basket, or of some other kind of metal, a vessel which is suitable to be used as a service vessel (in the Temple)
 
@DoubleAA so wheat is wheat (there aren't better and worse strains) and it's all in what you do with it? Ok.
@Alex whoa, gold or silver? How often did people do this?
 
@DoubleAA It's more than that, I think. In Pirkei Avos kemach (regular flour) is contrasted with soles, where a sieve will let the kemach through and keep the soles
 
@Alex He doesn't say you donate it. You just bring it in a kavod vessel
 
6:08 PM
@MonicaCellio Well, he does say "or some other metal"
@DoubleAA Then why would it have to be suitable to use as a kli shareis? They're going to put the minchah into one of the Temple vessels anyway
 
@Alex I think ti's a rule regarding proper honorary transportation. I'll follow back to the gemara and check.
 
@DoubleAA It's in Sotah 14b. It sounds from there like it must be metal and nothing else, though I guess it's possible maybe then that a poor person might buy a ready-made korban minchah from the Temple commissary and then they'd give it to him in a vessel.
 
@Alex I see that now. But the gemara does not say that the Temple keeps the vessel that it is brought in. No one says that AFAICanTell.
 
@Alex and if he doesn't have to donate the vessel each time (as Double AA suggested), then he's basically borrowing the vessel and can return it later.
 
@MonicaCellio OK, I'll buy that - I was understanding it to mean that it has to be suitable to be a kli shareis because it's going to become one.
 
6:16 PM
@Alex I see why you come to say that, but I think someone should have mentioned it explicitly.
 
@Alex and you might be right, too. It seems plausible that the mincha "deserves" that level of kavod at each step along the way, but ownership of the vessel could be a separate question. It changes the economics of it for sure.
 
@MonicaCellio I'll have to look later in Minchas (pardon the pun) Chinuch. He tends to talk about these oddball questions that no one else does.
 
@Alex Yes he does :)
 
@Alex thanks. Pun noted. :-)
Do we know how often a typical Israelite brought offerings of the various sorts? Was this rare, common?
 
Sorry to interrupt, but is the chat scheduled for an hour later now? Why did it start at 13:30?
 
6:20 PM
@jake DST. I think the chat is set according to UTC.
 
@jake 1330 which timezone?
 
@DoubleAA EST
 
@Alex yes, it's set for UTC. I missed it last week by not noticing that.
 
@Alex I see.
 
@MonicaCellio How can you miss it, if it starts later than expected?
 
6:21 PM
@MonicaCellio In that case, is there any way to reschedule it based on some timezone that people actually use?
 
I thought I had missed it completely, until I just saw that it was still going on.
 
@DoubleAA I was in a meeting from 12:30 to 2, so concluded I'd missed it all. If I'd thought to look I would have caught the last half.
Now that I know how it works, 1:30 is no harder for me than 12:30.
 
Anyhow, now that I caught the end here, I wanted to see what people think of the Shadal theory of korbanos: parsha.blogspot.com/2009/03/role-of-korbanos-al-pi-shadal.html
 
@jake willing to summarize (or quote salient bits)? Blogspot is blocked by my employer.
 
6:23 PM
similar to Rambam's theory, but at the same time, very different.
@MonicaCellio It's kind of longwinded. Let me try.
 
@jake Seems to also borrow a bit from Sefer Hachinuch's idea about the korban being for the benefit of man rather than of Hashem
 
@jake oh, sorry -- don't want to impose. I can catch it later at home, of course, but not during this chat.
 
@Alex Right, which means the "fine flour" used in translation in elementary school is fine in the sense of good quality, not in the sense of coarseness: it's actually coarse flour. (backread a bit, sorry for the delayed comment)
 
@MonicaCellio Essentially, korbanos are just to make man feel like he is doing something for God, even though there is of course no real benefit to God. And they are to take place at the Temple so that man can feel like God has a place within the people and so that the individual can feel part of the community.
 
@msh210 Hm, good point - I hadn't thought of that. You're right - the commentaries on the mishnah there say that kemach is flour dust.
 
6:28 PM
@MonicaCellio So, all these offerings are comparable to what might go on between people and their flesh-and-blood king, so that the people can relate to God on their own (lowly) level.
 
@jake so the korbanot are just a means -- for all He's concerned, God could have commanded any behavior, so long as it was something we would fulfill at the temple?
@jake oh, analogy to gifts for earthly kings.
 
@Alex But IIRC there's a machlokes in M'nachos how to sift the flour: you use 13 sifters, but what order you use them in is a subject of machlokes. I forget the details, but I think it would affect how fine soles is.
 
@MonicaCellio Correct, IIRC. The specific offerings are just analogous to say, offerings that a commoner would bring to his king.
@MonicaCellio Indeed.
 
@MonicaCellio He also starts out with an idea that since we describe Hashem as "above" us, then that suggested to people the idea that the way to offer something to Hashem is to burn it and make it "go up" with the smoke
 
@Alex Isn't that obvious? How can we benefit Hashem?
 
6:29 PM
@msh210 see menachot 8:7 mechon-mamre.org/b/f/f52.htm
 
@jake which means we aren't automatically out with God post-temple.
 
@msh210 I meant that the person sees what happens with the korban and is awed and humbled by it - it affects his own mood and spiritual station
 
@msh210 The p'sukim are very misleading in that they describe God as deriving some sort of pleasure from our offerings.
 
@DoubleAA Exactly. Thanks
 
@jake But that goes back to Rashi's נחת רוח לפני שאמרתי ונעשה רצוני (I think it's from Sifra, actually). It's not the actual burning flesh that Hashem enjoys, but that we are doing what He told us to
 
6:32 PM
@jake yeah, that's long confused me. God doesn't need our offerings; anything from this world that God wants he can take (or make). It being for us (not God) makes sense, but the torah talks about God wanting it and deriving pleasure. The idea that He derives pleasure from us doing it, rather than from it itself, helps.
 
@MonicaCellio That is one of his points. Although on the other hand, we don't anymore have that materialistic way of feeling like we are interacting with God one-on-one. Also, korbanos are not "obsolete". If we had a Temple, the same reason to give offerings that applied back then still applies today.
@Alex But the problem remains, as @msh210 stated. How can we "benefit" God in any way? Even if just by doing as he says?
 
@jake korbanot are not obsolete, but they are also not available to us today. So we need to use other means to please God.
 
@MonicaCellio Not to please God, but to feel an interaction with Him.
 
@jake God doesn't need us at all, yet He chose to make us and give us the world and command us. Why? God must get something out of it even if we can't understand it. I envision it as kind of like a scientist watching what his experiment will do, or a parent raising a child -- inadequate comparisons to be sure (I'm not calling God a mere scientist), but maybe something like that mindset.
 
@jake In a certain sense we can't understand that - לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם. But there is the idea in the Midrash (and from there quoted extensively in Chassidus) that Hashem "desired" to have a dwelling place here on earth, and that means that He made things such that we fulfill that "desire" of His (and, as Chassidus comments, "you can't ask why someone desires something")
 
6:36 PM
@MonicaCellio M'silas Y'sharim famously says God wanted to benefit someone, so created people to reward us. Which raises the "if he wants to benefit someone, isn't that desire a lacking in him (chas v'shalom)?" question; see also Alex's post just above this one.
 
@msh210 Indeed, Sefer Hachinuch makes that point too in his introduction to the mitzvah of building the Beis Hamikdash and offering korbanos in it (mitzvah 95, parshas Terumah), as well as in other places
 
@Alex A slightly earlier source. :-)
 
@Alex sounds like something I should go read. Thanks (to msh210 too).
 
I think we all agree we can't understand if/what/how God "wants", want being a indication of lacking which a perfect being can't have. However, we also agree that we as humans use the terms to help describe and quantify our relation with God because we need to as finite beings. Trying to understand it deeper usually leads to many strange logical connundrums (like discussing time-travel does).
 
@Alex Perhaps. Although it seems like Shadal would argue that God does not "dwell" anywhere in particular. The Bais Hamikdash is simply a place where his people occupy themselves with serving Him (for their own benefit, of couse) so that they can feel part of a community.
 
6:40 PM
@MonicaCellio Getting back to your question, I don't know about any individual (there were the korbanos that each person had to bring on the shalosh regalim, but I don't know about the rest of the year). It seems that in the aggregate, though, on a typical day there were korbanos being brought all day - there was in fact a special kind of korban (called "kayitz hamizbe'ach") for slack times, and it sounds like those weren't very often
 
@jake I think @Alex meant good acts etc not the bhm"k.
 
@msh210 Yes, דירה בתחתונים refers to our world in general
 
@Alex Oh, I see. Thanks.
 
@Alex I once suggested that kayitz comes from summer, because the day is longer so more downtime. (I know there is a rashi that says otherwise somewhere, but I like my pshat :) )
 
@Alex The language of chassidus is quite foreign to me.
 
6:42 PM
@DoubleAA Interesting idea - could be
 
@Alex what question, sorry?
 
@msh210 Earlier @MonicaCellio asked how often the average person might have brought a korban
 
@Alex Yet certainly more korbanos were brought on holidays than on non-. (See mishna Tamid describing the mound of ashes.) You say korbanos occupied the bhm"k all day: so you think they simply slowed down on non-holidays relative to holidays?
 
@Alex Even when people brought, like on holidays, most of them didn't go into the temple, they sent one of them as a messenger to deal with it. Remember: one cow feeds a lot of people.
 
@Alex Thanks. I've never tried to do it via math -- how many Israelites were there, how many kohanim (and resident levi'im), how much to feed them, therefore what's a minimum... aside from the chagim, was this something you did a couple times a year, a couple times a month...?
 
6:44 PM
@DoubleAA (Does an agent do viduy-s'micha? (I'm thinking of chataos/ahasmos.))
 
@msh210 how long did it take to offer a korban?
 
@msh210 Something like that. Say on a holiday there might have been a couple of dozen korbanos being offered at the same time, while on a regular weekday maybe just one or two
 
@msh210 I'm pretty sure not. I'd have to check though for a source.
 
@MonicaCellio The korban tamid took an hour. Dunno about others.
@DoubleAA Nope - a messenger doesn't do semichah (Rambam, Maaseh Hakorbanos 3:8)
 
@Alex Two hours, it seems from pesachim 5:1 mechon-mamre.org/b/h/h23.htm
 
6:46 PM
@Alex including all the other stuff (k'tores, m'nora, prayers)? or justthe acts with the animal?
@Alex Then @DoubleAA I'm surprised most people would send a korban by messenger and skip viduy. (I mean then can say it at home, and I'm sure they did, but still.) [citation needed], as they say at WP.
 
@DoubleAA How do you figure? נשחט בשמונה ומחצה, וקרב בתשע ומחצה - it was slaughtered at 8-1/2 hours and offered on the mizbe'ach at 9-1/2
@msh210 Just from the shechitah until the pieces were thrown onto the fire, it seems (from the mishnah that @DoubleAA quoted)
 
@Alex Yes, I see now. Thanks.
 
@Alex Hmm I seemed to recall it saying that the pesach was offered at 9.5 after the tamid at 7.5 and 8.5 implying an hour of putting stuff on the mizbeach, but i don't see that now.
 
@Alex you said a couple dozen korbanot might be being offered at the same time. Do you mean in different stages of "production", or that that many might have been on the altar together?
 
@MonicaCellio They could be happening simultaneously. (within a reasonable amount)
 
6:52 PM
@MonicaCellio There were numerous rings (to hold the animal in place for slaughter). Although each mishmar (on-duty shift for the week) had one to use, if I recall right they shared when there were more animals.
 
@MonicaCellio Either one. They weren't supposed to mix up pieces from different korbanos, but you could have more than one kohen standing there and throwing pieces on the fire
@msh210 Each mishmar, no? (24 rings, 24 mishmaros)
 
@Alex ah, ok. I know it's a big altar, but was wondering about mixing parts up. But having one kohen tending each pile, so to speak, would mitigate that.
 
@Alex Correct, I misspoke. (And have now corrected it.)
 
I have to drop off now. Thanks all for the interesting chat!
 
@Alex @msh210 see midot 3:5 mechon-mamre.org/b/h/h5a.htm There were also a number of tables and hooks available to help in the division of the animal
 
6:55 PM
@MonicaCellio thanks
 
@DoubleAA I seem to recall there were one pillar and one table per ring, 24 total. I may be wrong. Perhaps check the m'far'shim there.
@MonicaCellio Thank you, and y'all.
End Parashat Hashavua' Chat #15 - Vayikra 5772 but of course feel free to keep chatting.
 
@msh210 There were eight pillars, but each one had three rows of hooks (doesn't say how many per row, though). The mishnah doesn't say how many tables, but Rambam says eight.
I have to go too, actually. Thanks, all, for a fascinating discussion! (And I'd love to see a paper along the lines of what @MonicaCellio mentioned, analyzing the operations of the Beis Hamikdash quantitatively.)
 
7:55 PM
is this chat only for relevant things or just talking for fun as well
 
8:12 PM
@AdamMosheh It's been used for both.
(trying to be descriptive rather than prescriptive)
 
okay
 
l '
8:42 PM
Here is the mechirat chametz contract I am currently working on. I would really appreciate comments and revisions, besides for what I posted in my question. Very few changes have been made to the original (which was an old, hard-to-read print).
 
9:15 PM
Does anyone else think the following is a duplicate, or think it's not?
0
Q: Maccabees and God's interaction

MichaelI looked over this answer Why isn't the book of the Maccabees part of the Jewish canon?, but I had further questions. I understand why its non canonical, i think its easier to understand when an item is non-holy-spirit-inspired by how the writer puts the hero(s). If the hero(s) are put with...

(See comments thereon.)
Courtesy ping @michael.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:39 PM
Isaac Moses has removed an event from this room's schedule.
 
@msh210 In fact, I didn't even have access to Jewish Life and Learning today, as I was in a truck all day. I've discarded it. (@ShmuelBrill)
 

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