« first day (395 days earlier)      last day (2169 days later) » 
00:00 - 19:0019:00 - 22:00

12:49 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan Oh Ok...
 
1:17 AM
@Tezz By the way, the argument given by the Raseshvaras is very strange. They think that just because Narasimha's body is eternal, it must be possible for human bodies to become eternal also.
@Tezz And they think that the Purusha Sukta somehow proves the existence of Narasimha's eternal body.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan haha...
@KeshavSrinivasan how does Purush Sukta prove it...?..
 
@Tezz I don't know, it doesn't make sense to me. Here's what it says: "How can the body of the man-lion be otherwise than really existent, proved as it is by three kinds of proof: (1) by the intuition of Sanaka and others; (2) by Vedic texts such as, A thousand heads has Purusha; and (3) by Purānic texts such as, That wondrous child, lotus-eyed, four-armed, armed with the conch-shell, the club, and other weapons?"
@Tezz The Puranic verse seems to be the description of baby Krishna in the Srimad Bhagavatam.
@Tezz Maybe they're citing those scriptural verses because they're related to Vishnu, and they're trying to argue because the existence of Vishnu implies the existence of Narasimha.
@Tezz In any case, I want to read some of the texts of the Raseshvara sect, if I can find any. The Sarva Darshana Sangraha mentions a whole bunch of texts, like the Rasarnava, the Rasa Hridayam, etc.
 
1:43 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan are there any Rasheswara texts alive?...
 
@Tezz Yes, there are, but I don't know whether any have been translated into English.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan btw I think Rasheswara sect might be most easiest path to follow... just apply Mercury and become immortal...😀😀😀
 
@Tezz Chapter 6 of this book summarizes the Rasarnava: books.google.com/…
@Tezz Well, first of all there's 18 different things you need to do with Mercury, like molding it, applying it, eating it, etc. Second of all, the Mercury stuff is just the beginning of the path, not the end of it. The Mercury just makes your body eternal, so that you can live long enough to attain Jnana and thus become a Jivanmukta.
@Tezz Raseshvaras believed that an ordinary human lifetime was too short a time to attain Jnana.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan Oh I just read some chapters of it... it's also complex... 😂😂
 
@Tezz You read some chapters of what?
@Tezz You mean you read the summary of the chapters in that book?
 
1:52 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan of that book link...
Oh sorry... by chapters I mean pages... I mistakenly wrote chapters... @KeshavSrinivasan
 
2:51 AM
@Tezz Oh ok. By the way, I found the Rasarnava in Sanskrit: archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.487147 It doesn't seem to have ever been translated into English. I guess no one cares about the Raseshvara sect because it has no followers anymore.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan Oh ok! ..
 
3:54 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan ok. I think we had discussed about Rudra Sampradaya earlier. Vishnuswami etc.
@KeshavSrinivasan @Tezz @TheDestroyer we're getting these everyday! Haha
It considerably increases QPD :)
 
@Pandya haha but 99% of them are likely to remain unanswered...😀😀😀
 
4:28 AM
@Pandya @Tezz Haha, it's the world-famous Keshav Srinivasan effect :-)
 
@KeshavSrinivasan I have one paradoxical problem regarding this... haha.. wait Ill comment later about it...
 
@Pandya By the way, Vishnuswami built the Kanchipuram Varadaraja temple, which is one of the most important temples for Sri Vaishnavas, second only to Sri Rangam and Tirupati.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:15 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan I've been reading 'Ramanuja on the Gita' by S.S. Raghavachar, i have a doubt: He says that (based on verses 17,18 and 25 of BG Ch 2) "Destruction is something that is to be wrought by pervading the object to be destroyed" I'm trying to gain a better understanding of this, have you come across anything like this?
 
6:38 AM
0
A: Is Lord Shani Harmful ? OR a Friend?

SwiftPushkarWe find a nice description about Shani-Deva in our puranas like Skanda Purana & Padma purana. Puranas tells us that Shani Deva is sun's son. He gained favour of Lord Mahadeva. And Lord Mahadeva granted him the status of planet. He is also called in puranas as "Sauri" or "Surishwara". He is said...

Good Afternoon 🌞 All
@Pandya @TheDestroyer @KeshavSrinivasan - 👇👇
1
Q: Why are Hindu marriages done “Agni Sakshi” (fire as witness)

VikrantWhile marrying, the hindus pledge considering "fire" as a witness. Is there any specific with fire that it is given priority over the other master elements of the universe?

This question's answer already present ,see my answer 👇👇
3
A: What is the significance of fire in rituals?

RickrossFire is the Vedic Deity Agni. In fire rituals(Yajnas), he(Agni) acts as the messenger & hence indispensable . He carries the Havi(the oblations like Ghee,etc) to the receiver of the Yajna. That is,Agni forms the bridge between the performer of the Yajna and the receiver of the oblations or the...

 
@SwiftPushkar Nice answer...
 
6:54 AM
@Tezz - Thanks , तेजस्वी , आभारं , but still some points are unanswered , trying to find them 😊👍👍🌷
 
@SwiftPushkar btw where does Skanda Purana says Shani having 20 eyes...?...
 
@Tezz - I saw it , wait ,i will give u that description , its on my pc & I switched it off , after compiling answer , i will give you that😀👍👍
 
SS.
@Tezz There is a question by our Keshav.
 
@SS. - which one ,about shani deva ?
 
SS.
@SwiftPushkar Yes. But 6 eyes not 20 eyes
3
Q: What scriptures describe Shani as having six eyes?

Keshav SrinivasanI just came back from a trip to India, and one of the places I visited was my dad's native village of Kuchanoor. It's the site of the famous Kuchanoor Shanishwaran temple, one of the few temples in the world for Shani, god of the planet Saturn. For those who don't know, Shani is the son of Surya,...

 
7:02 AM
@SS. - hmm , but i remember the description of 20 , wait i will again check after some time😊
 
7:14 AM
@SS. Yeah I remembered that question after reading that...
 
@SwiftPushkar I'm editing one of your answers :)
 
7:26 AM
@Tezz @SS. - The word is not twenty but twany meaning - of an orange-brown or yellowish-brown colour. 😀 removing that part 📝
 
@SwiftPushkar tawny?
 
@LakshmiNarayanan - hmm yes twany - this is new word for me 😀👀
 
@SwiftPushkar it means tan-colored, like common deer is tawny or tawny owl.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan - 👍👍
 
@SwiftPushkar What is your favorite BG verse?
 
7:33 AM
@LakshmiNarayanan - That one where krishna says , There were no time when you , me and all these kings were not present😃
 
@SwiftPushkar Is this in Chapter 2?
 
@LakshmiNarayanan - yes 2.12 i think
 
na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsaṁ
na tvaṁ neme janādhipāḥ
na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ
sarve vayam ataḥ param
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
 
@SwiftPushkar Yes, it illustrates our limited perception of the reality of time :)
 
7:39 AM
@LakshmiNarayanan - Yeah & removes fear of death from our minds , freeing us from bondage of it 😇
 
@SwiftPushkar I am still duped by time from time to time, it is quite difficult to hold the reality of time in every perspective
 
@LakshmiNarayanan - what is the meaning - duped to be taken here
 
@SwiftPushkar as in fooled
 
@LakshmiNarayanan - oh ok , like old people still think that they are young 😀
 
@SwiftPushkar Yes! As Yudhishthira says, "Day after day countless people die. Yet the living wish to live forever. O Lord, what can be a greater wonder?"
 
7:49 AM
@LakshmiNarayanan - Yes people want god to come to their homes ,but they themselves don't want to go to home of god 😂😂
2
 
@SwiftPushkar Haha Well said!
 
 
2 hours later…
9:26 AM
@Tezz did you check videos?
 
 
3 hours later…
12:08 PM
Hello philosophers
 
@Kenshin @Kaumudi.H Welcome to H.SE!
 
Is Hindu a religion or philosophy?
 
@Kenshin Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma is a way of life - it incorporates a lot of philosophical elements in the belief system, it is most definitely a religion.
 
SS.
@Kenshin @Kaumudi.H Hello! o/
 
I'm interested in philosophies about the way of life
for example, Aristotle's virtue ethics
or utilitarianism
or hedonism
I wonder, what is the Hindu's view on how one should act, and why they should act like that
 
user228700
12:15 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Hi :-) Thanks!
 
SS.
@Kenshin Sure. There are some principles on what Hindu should do or Hindu should behave. They can be related to any person not only Hindu.
 
@Kenshin Roughly, Hindus believe that life is a repeated game - that is ingrained in the philosophy in the concept of the Law of Karma and the concept of Dharma. Most calls to act with ethics which are ensconced in the Hindu system follow these two rules inevitably whether they believe in the existence of divinity or not.
 
I see, yes Karma sounds alot like the "golden rule" found in many different philosophies
do unto others as you'd have them do to you
 
@Kenshin It is similar, Karma is the concept that there is some sort of accounts going on(at the risk of oversimplifying) - You do good, you get good karma and you do bad, you get bad karma.
 
r u hindu @Kaumudi.H
 
user228700
12:18 PM
@Kenshin In some ways, yes.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan who controls Karma? Is there a god or is it a natural law or something else?
and what is Dharma?
 
@Kenshin This is where things get interesting, there are many schools within Hindu philosophy for example, Purva Mimamsa - a school of thought widely held that Karma is a natural law that is not controlled by any divinity, it just was. Whereas there are other schools of thought where Karma is said to be controlled or effected by a Divine Principle.
 
user228700
@Kenshin Again with the Google-able questions -_-
 
@Kenshin Dharma is the moral principle of the universe.
 
12:21 PM
@Kaumudi.H XD everything is googable these days
 
SS.
@Kenshin Dharma is a nearest equivalent word in sanskrit for Religion. A religion is called "Matam" in sanskrit. Measn which is born from one's mind. Religion formed or foundd by a person. While a dharma is something which has no founder. HInduism has no founder.
Dharma is a non-sanskrit translatable.
 
Is Karma the only repercussion for immoral behaviour?
For example, If i'm willing to take harm myself, can I inflict harm onto others?
 
@Kenshin There is a saying from the Bhagavad Gita, "There is no slayer and there is no slain". Popularly, Action requires a context to attach a moral assessment to it.
 
ok I have a nother question about how to live
we have covered off interaction with others
but if I"m alone
say on a deserted island
is there an ideal way for me to live?
e.g. should I meditate, should i produce science and tech
should I be lazy
is there any guidance
should I follow pleasure
should I seek meaning
etc.
 
@Kenshin This a good question, there are various thoughts on this, they can all be boiled down to two things imho - Meditate with Form or Meditate with Formless (given that you are on a deserted island with no hope of leaving and having taken care of your body needs)
 
12:30 PM
and what is this meditation
did Buddha invent meditation?
 
@Kenshin No, Meditation has a long tradition which cannot be traced to a founder.
 
what is it tho
how do you meditate
obviously if the practice has been done for centuries there must be some benefit
 
SS.
@Kenshin Which is the most important thing when you are living alone in a deserted island? Concentrate on the thing which is the most important.
 
@Kenshin Yes there is active research happening in the area of meditation using tools from Neuroscience and Cognitive Science
 
@SS. that's what I wonder, is pleasure most important? Is understanding the truth most important?
 
12:33 PM
@Kenshin It really depends on you
 
is a state of "flow" meditation?
 
@Kenshin What is the goal of that state of "flow"
 
or a state of "peace"
or it can be either
@LakshmiNarayanan no goal, it is an emergent state when you are doing challenging activities with fluency
e.g. if you play video games u can get "in the zone"
or when listening to music
or doing maths etc.
 
@Kenshin In the spirit of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's definition?
 
I don't know wht that is
oh yeah
 
12:36 PM
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (/ˈmiːhaɪ ˈtʃiːksɛntˈmiːhaɪ/, Hungarian: Csíkszentmihályi Mihály, pronounced [ˈt͡ʃiːksɛntmihaːji ˈmihaːj]; born 29 September 1934) is a Hungarian psychologist. He recognised and named the psychological concept of flow, a highly focused mental state. He is the Distinguished Professor of Psychology and Management at Claremont Graduate University. He is the former head of the department of psychology at the University of Chicago and of the department of sociology and anthropology at Lake Forest College. == Work == Csikszentmihalyi is noted for his work in the study of happiness...
 
i googled him that's right
yea is that meditation?
 
SS.
@Kenshin First survival is the most important thing to do. E.g: When you are hungry, meditation would not bring you food. So, feeding yourself is the first thing.
 
@Kenshin Yes definitely it is meditation, it is called Karma Yoga in the Hindu Parlance.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan very interesting
 
@SS. Yes body needs first taken care of.
 
12:37 PM
@SS. yes but then when should you stop? Should you develop farming and agriculture and genetic modification etc. before meditating?
or should you just kill something, eat it then meditate
I guess this is a question of balance that noone relaly knows the answer to
 
@Kenshin There are various injunctions on how to assist these Meditative Activities, the main points of discussion in Hindu Philosophy centre on the adducements, analogies and arguments for the same.
 
SS.
@Kenshin You said you are alone. So there is a line between necessity and a luxury. Developing technology, farming falls under luxury. When you are alone, you really don't need all these. Hinduism gives less importance to luxuries. But it doesn't say that you should reject comfort. .
 
I see
alright that's all my questions for today, thanks for enlightening me about the phlosophy and religion of hinduism
I'm now more eagre to resaerch more about these ideas
laterz all
 
@Kenshin You are welcome any time! Please feel free to post questions or peruse through our SE. Have a good day.
 
SS.
@Kenshin Good to know. Have a nice day.
Visit the chatroom regularly. :)
 
12:45 PM
@Kaumudi.H You've been awfully silent.
 
@TheDestroyer Oh yes I'm downloading them... Thanks for uploading and then sharing...
 
@Tezz ok.
 
@TheDestroyer haha...😂😂
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Yeah.
 
@TheDestroyer Yeah I have seen it...
 
12:57 PM
@TheDestroyer That's what you were trying to say!?
@TheDestroyer Yes true.
 
SS.
OK. Let's not talk about it any more.
गतम् गतः
 
@Tezz No. Not here.
 
@TheDestroyer Oh ok...
 
@Tezz Did you watch them?
 
@TheDestroyer I'm just downloading them now... Internet is slow...
 
1:06 PM
@Tezz ok.
 
@TheDestroyer did you finish watching?.. how are they?..
 
@Tezz They are untold stories of Baahubali. Even they released books. @KeshavSrinivasan
Yeah. Good.
 
@TheDestroyer Oh ok... 😀😀 I wish download finish soon... so that I can watch now and now..😀😀
 
@Tezz This site talks about uranus retrograde. But it is not part of Navagrahas. What has Uranus to do with Jyotishya Sastra?
@RakeshJoshi @Rickross
 
@TheDestroyer people are adding just by their wish... someday they will also start to add other planets.. or even Andromeda...😀😀
 
1:12 PM
@Tezz Even i think the same. Pluto is missing as it is Dwarf Planet. lol.
 
@TheDestroyer haha... I have seen some sites which also consider Pluto..😂😂
 
@Tezz Kali demon is rocking. His Yuga, his Dharma, his Sastras.
 
@TheDestroyer haha Yeah...
 
1:41 PM
0
A: Which Sanatana Dharmic Text(s) detail the ethics of how to treat beings lower than Man?

SwiftPushkarHinduism tells us to respect all living beings from animals to small insects to plants.Hinduism treats them as jivas (living beings) and having souls. मृगोष्ट्रखरमर्काखुसरीसृप्खगमाक्षिका: । आत्मन: पुत्रवत पश्येतैरेषामन्तरं कियत ।।9।।  mṛgoṣṭra-khara-markākhu-sarīsṛp khaga-makṣikāḥ ātmana...

@LakshmiNarayanan -⬆⬆ Your answer 📝 @TheDestroyer @Tezz @Pandya - Your comments pls.after reading for further improvement 😊👍👍
 
@SwiftPushkar Good answer!
 
@Pandya - Thanks 🌷👍👍
 
@SwiftPushkar good answer, i've commented my doubt :)
 
Btw, I've posted one question regarding Bahubali 2 on movies.SE
 
@LakshmiNarayanan - That vedbase tranlation of that verse 6.4.7 is not so accurate , i will add other one 😊from gita press , that version is saying they are created by prajapati , but vedbase is omitimg prajapati name I think , i will recheck
 
1:48 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Btw, What does your dark avatar indicate?
 
@Pandya It is interlocked rings, indicating infinity and each ring is made of "B" which i think of as "Be" (phonetically) so something like "Be Infinity"
 
@SwiftPushkar You may check bhagvata.org also.
 
@SwiftPushkar cool thanks! so creatures are considered as citizens? what do you think?
 
@Pandya - Yes , 😊👍👍
 
@LakshmiNarayanan ok
 
1:53 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan - No that translation of vedbase is having errors , the actual tranlation is - " O
 
@Pandya It's made up so don't read too much into it, has personal meaning that's all.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan - Sorry , Yes ,there are planty of verses which indicate that they are like us and part of this world.See SB 6.4 , but unfortunately its not possible to give all ,but i will update answer as necessary 😊👍👍
 
@Kenshin I discuss the relation between happiness and morality in Hinduism in my Medium post here: medium.com/@lugita15/…
 
@LakshmiNarayanan - Will update tomortow 🔜😊
 
@SwiftPushkar cool
 
2:16 PM
@Tezz if you dont kow about astrology then why make such comments
@TheDestroyer uranus is a certain part of our solar system and no one can deny that. it is as big as the saturn
 
2:42 PM
@RakeshJoshi what is Sanskrit name for Uranus?
 
Sir @RakeshJoshi I think NASA's definition of planet is different from Hindu definition of planet.
@TheDestroyer This is refutation to those who believe consciousness is brain connections ( momentaries)
This view of momentariness is untenable. If consciousness itself is momentary, the experience of meritorious and sinful effects and the remembrance of previous experiences cannot occur. Because, consciousness which occurs at one moment perishes at the next moment itself. How could the effect of karmas done by one man be experienced by another man? Or, how could the experience attained by one man be remembered by another man?
Because of the ascertained occurrence of the karmic effects and remembrance, it is to be deduced that the self is essentially eternal; not momentary.
 
@RohitSinghRathore There are two kinds of people: One, for whom, Consciousness is a state of matter and the other, for whom, Matter is a state of consciousness ;)
 
@LakshmiNarayanan But for whom who believes consciousness is a state of matter ( I think they are called realist, not sure), there are tons of refutations already.
Consciousness is a state of matter implies the momentariness of consciousness which has been strongly refuted by Indian achāryas already.
 
2:58 PM
@RohitSinghRathore I agree, i have yet to read a few of the arguments to that effect, is there a good post or resource that systematically explores the refutation of this hypothesis and the various arguments listed for the same? would appreciate it. And I don't think the former believers are called realists, they are reductionists afaik.
@RohitSinghRathore Even a list is fine, i can use it to search.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan In ishvar Pratyabijna by Utpaladeva, Utpaladeva refutes Atheists & Agnostics based on consciousness only. Very powerful arguments. Read the book. :)
 
@RohitSinghRathore Cool, please share the link?
 
@LakshmiNarayanan unable to find the link again. Can email you. Or @KeshavSrinivasan knows the link.
Wait.
Can't attach more than 20mb. :P. Lemme find the link.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Here: archive.org/details/…
 
@KeshavSrinivasan Thanks @RohitSinghRathore, got it :)
 
3:14 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, I discuss the Mimamsa-Vedanta refutation of Charvakas (materialistic atheists) and the demonstration of the existence of the soul in my question here:
8
Q: How does Ramanujacharya interpret a quote from Upavarsha's ancient Vritti?

Keshav SrinivasanAs I discuss in this question, by far the most popular school of Hindu philosophy is the Vedanta school, which bases its tenets on the doctrines laid out in the Brahma Sutras, a work by the sage Vyasa that summarizes and systematizes the philosophical teachings of the Upanishads. You can read the...

 
@KeshavSrinivasan Thank you!
 
@LakshmiNarayanan See also my question here:
3
Q: What arguments does Shabara's Mimamsa Sutra Bhashya take from the Brahma Sutras?

Keshav SrinivasanAs I discuss in this question, by far the most popular school of Hindu philosophy is the Vedanta school, which bases its tenets on the doctrines laid out in the Brahma Sutras, a work by the sage Vyasa that summarizes and systematizes the philosophical teachings of the Upanishads. You can read the...

@LakshmiNarayanan This may be a rare instance where Purva Mimamsa people copied off of the Vedanta school, rather than the other way around.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan :)
 
@KeshavSrinivasan This is super weird indeed, i would expect that Purva Mimamsa Commentaries would have nothing to do with Vedanta Sutras. Do Purva Mimamsa Bhashya of Shabara explore verses from other than the samhitas?
@KeshavSrinivasan Essentially my question can be, does Jaimini talk about verses other than from samhitas? The equivalence is correct right?
 
3:52 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan I think they are called as Agnostic only.
 
@RohitSinghRathore No, here agnostic is used in the sense of the third meaning of the word as described here: dictionary.com/browse/agnostic
 
I have forgotten Quantum mechanics completely. I think it serves good connection with indian philosophies. Do you know Quantum mechanics?
 
@RohitSinghRathore Yes, i did my master's thesis in Quantum stuff only :)
 
Awesome! What are prerequisites to learn Quantum mechanics?
 
@RohitSinghRathore Do you want to get deep into the mathematics or do you want to get more intuition first before getting into the mathematics?
 
3:58 PM
I'm gonna make career in Machine learning, deep learning, pattern recognition, cognitive science etc. So I'm gonna practice mathematics a lot. So I think I can cover prerequisites for Quantum mechanics as well.
 
@RohitSinghRathore Regarding this Buddhists say that if you hit a man with stone and he becomes mad.. he has different awareness now... he considers himself as different... so does new self comes there in him?....
 
Thats the refutation is simple words. :-) @Tezz
1 hour ago, by Rohit Singh Rathore
This view of momentariness is untenable. If consciousness itself is momentary, the experience of meritorious and sinful effects and the remembrance of previous experiences cannot occur. Because, consciousness which occurs at one moment perishes at the next moment itself. How could the effect of karmas done by one man be experienced by another man? Or, how could the experience attained by one man be remembered by another man?
1 hour ago, by Rohit Singh Rathore
Because of the ascertained occurrence of the karmic effects and remembrance, it is to be deduced that the self is essentially eternal; not momentary.
This is more deeply explained in Ishvar Pratyabijna by achārya Utpaladeva.
 
@RohitSinghRathore Ok, i will suggest the mathematical route then - the key to mastering this material is to try the problems yourself first and try hard, only then look for solutions: you should start with "Linear Algebra done right" by Sheldon Axler then move onto "Probability and Random Processes" by Grimmett and Stirzaker, they have also written a good problems treatise as well called, "One thousand Exercises in Probability"(effectively collected exercises of the other book). Next stop is...
 
@RohitSinghRathore see answers given here; buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/7426/…
 
Luckily linear algebra & probability is prerequisites for machine learning, deep learning etc as well. Hopefully can cover.
Oh. @Tezz will read definitely. :) Now watching Bahubali 2. :P
 
4:11 PM
@RohitSinghRathore Yes, the style of these books is neutral so it will be very easily transfer to AI as well. The next set of books is more specialised than these in terms of applicability to AI, i can give them now if you want.
 
@RohitSinghRathore Oh Ok go on....
 
@Tezz Agnostic asked - Have you seen God? An Advaitin replies - Have you tasted your tongue. I need deep arguments on this as well.
Don't know where to find.
 
@RohitSinghRathore Do you mean to know where is this argument avaliable..?
 
@LakshmiNarayanan I will ask when need. I think I would study Girbert Strand for linear algebra.
Yes Mathematicians can be good at AI.
Yes @Tezz :)
 
@RohitSinghRathore I feel that Gilbert Strang is overrated, Axler is way better - it actually teaches you to think in terms of linear spaces and not their matrix representation.
 
4:14 PM
Oh @LakshmiNarayanan Thanks for info. I will speculate. :)
 
@RohitSinghRathore Oh ok...
 
Good night @Tezz @LakshmiNarayanan @SS. :)
 
@RohitSinghRathore speculate? I don't understand.
 
@MetaEd
For choice.
 
@RohitSinghRathore Good Night...
 
SS.
4:15 PM
@RohitSinghRathore Good night.
 
@RohitSinghRathore good night
 
SS.
@RohitSinghRathore You should say morning/afternoon for Metaed :)
 
4:26 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan It's not as weird as you might thing; the Purva Mimamsa Sutras and the Brahma Sutras were originally part of a unified Mimamsa Shastra. This Mimamsa Shastra was 20 chapters: the 12 chapters of Jaimini's Purva Mimamsa Sutras, which focus on Karma Kanda (Brahmanas) of the Vedas; the 4 chapters of Kasakritsna's Devatakanda Sutras, which are about the Devata Kanda (Samhitas) of the Vedas; and the 4 chapters of Vyasa's Brahma Sutras, which focus on the Jnana Kanda (Upanishads) of the Vedas
@LakshmiNarayanan Kasakritsna's Devata Kanda Sutras are lost though.
@LakshmiNarayanan On the contrary, Jaimini hardly discusses the Samhitas at all in the Purva Mimamsa Sutras. He mainly focuses on the Brahmanas of the Vedas. The Samhitas are the subject of the Devata Kanda Sutras.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan So Shabara wrote a commentary on the unified Mimamsa Shastra or just Jaimini's Purva Mimamsa sutras?
@KeshavSrinivasan Do the Brahmanas of the Vedas survive today?
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Shabara just wrote a commentary on the Purva Mimamsa Sutras. There were ancient commentators like Upavarsha and Baudhayana who commented on the entire Mimamsa Shastra, but their commentaries are lost.
@LakshmiNarayanan Yeah, they do.
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, it's too bad that the Devata Kanda Sutras are lost. They gave in information on how to meditate on the gods using the mantras of the Samhitas. There are only five surviving Sutras from the Devata Kanda Sutras. There's the first Sutra, "Athato Daivi Jijnasa" - now therefore there is a desire to know the gods. Then there is a Sutra somewhere in the middle, "Nana va devata prithaktvat", which is about how Prana and Vayu are different gods.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan Do we know if these works of Upavarsha and Bodhayana were popular?
 
@LakshmiNarayanan And there are the last three Sutras: 1. ante harau taddarshanat 2. sa vishnuraha hi 3. tam brahmetyachakshate, tam brahmetyachakshate - 1. Ultimately Hari is to be meditated on. 2. He is called Vishnu 3. He is announced as Brahman, he is announced as Brahman
 
@KeshavSrinivasan How do we know these five sutras?
 
4:36 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Yes, they were considered the authoritative commentaries on the Brahma Sutras for a long time. Then Adi Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashya became popular, and those commentaries eventually became extinct. In Ramanujacharya's time there was only one surviving copy of Baudhayana's commentary left, and it was in the royal library of Kashmir. So Ramanujacharya traveled all the way from Tamil Nadu to Kashmir just to read it.
@LakshmiNarayanan Because the Devata Kanda Sutras were only lost relatively recently. So they're quoted by Adi Shankaracharya, Ramanujacharya, Vedanta Desikan, Appayya Dikshitar, etc.
@LakshmiNarayanan They still existed in the time of Appayya Dikshitar, who lived in the 1500's.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan If they are lost after 1500s there is good chance they are stowed away in some library in an unknown corner of the world.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Haha, maybe. It's possible that the Muslims or the British took them.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan So Adi Shankaracharya's Bhashya and SriBhashya reference Baudhayana's work, what about udayana? Does Adi Shankaracharya refer to it?
@KeshavSrinivasan My bet is on Germans, they were more interested in the actual contents of the work in the first place post 1500s period.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Yes, Adi Shankaracharya and Ramanujacharya both refer to Baudhayana/Upavarsha. By the way, there's some confusion about whether Baudhayana and Upavarsha was one person or two people.
@LakshmiNarayanan I know about German interest in Hinduism in the past hundred or two hundred years, but were they interested in Hinduism in the 16th or 17th century?
 
@KeshavSrinivasan Same verse from both never quoted simultaneously?
 
4:45 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan The problem is that figures like Adi Shankaracharya and Ramanujacharya often don't even mention the names Upavarsha or Baudhayana, instead they just say "Vrittikara" or author of the Vritti. So in some cases there's confusion about whether the Vrittikara is Baudhayana, Upavarsha, or whether they're both one and the same person.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan They was lot of contact between Ottoman Empire and Germany during these times i think, that would establish possible routes of transmissions of these works.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, we know that Baudhayana and Upavarsha were shishyas of Vyasa, the question is whether it's one shishya or two shishyas.
@LakshmiNarayanan Oh ok
 
@KeshavSrinivasan oh! how do we know so?
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Because various commentators on the Brahma Sutras say things like "Vyasa's shishya Upavarsha says this."
 
@KeshavSrinivasan but you said they didn't refer to them by name.
 
4:51 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. Sometimes they'll say "Bhagavan Upavarsha says in his Vritti", at other time they'll say "the Vrittikara says this".
 
@KeshavSrinivasan Do you know that some German PharmaResearch Entity recently tried to patent Curcumin, the active agent in Turmeric? Indian Government vetoed them internationally because the research was derived(read decoded) from Ayurvedic texts (which had been plundered/transmitted)!
@KeshavSrinivasan oh ok
 
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, Baudhayana and Upavarsha aren't the only ancient pre-Shankara Vedantic commentators referred to by a title. There's also the Vakyakara, which refers to Tanka, the Bhashyakara, which refers to Dramidacharya, and the Tikakara, which refers to Vamana.
@LakshmiNarayanan Dramidacharya's ancient Bhashya was lost even more recently than the Deavata Kanda Sutras. Dramidacharya's Bhashya still existed at the time of Srinivasadasa, the author of the Yatindra Mata Dipika who lived in the 17th century.
@LakshmiNarayanan So imagine, if we went just 400 years back in time we could read pre-Shankara Vedantic works. But now Adi Shankaracharya's works are the oldest surviving works of the Vedanta school, apart from the Brahma Sutras themselves of course.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan I remember there is this identity crisis that Dramidacharya and Thirumazhisai Azhwar are the same person.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Yeah, I posted a question and answer on that here:
6
Q: Is Dramidacharya the same as Thirumazhisai Alwar?

Keshav SrinivasanThe Alwars (also spelled Azhwars) are a group of 12 ancient Vaishnava saints who lived in Tamil Nadu and are famous for their devotional poetry in praise of Vishnu. The collection of their 4000 poems, known as the Naalayira Divya Prabhandam, is considered by many to be the "Dravida Veda", or Sout...

 
@KeshavSrinivasan yeah, this is the one!
@KeshavSrinivasan This is kinda saddening, i wonder how much of the Oral Tradition survived then as compared to now.
@KeshavSrinivasan Are there any prophesised Avataras like Bhagavad RamanujAcharya we can expect in the near future?
 
5:04 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, here is a quote from a Mimamsa work called the Prapancha Hridayam discussing various commentators on the unified Mimamsa Shastra:
"The Mimamsa Shastra is contained in a text of 20 chapters. Of these, the first 16 chapters constitute the Purva Mimamsa. In this Mimamsa Shastra, the Purvakanda deals on issues of Dharma, and is compiled by Jaimini. The last 4 chapters constitute the Uttara Kanda or the Uttara Mimamsa and are compiled by Vyasa for dealing with the nature of Brahman. On this Mimamsa Shastra of 20 chapters, Bodhayana wrote a Bhashya that bore the name
@LakshmiNarayanan As you can see this work treats Baudhayana and Upavarsha as two different people, but other works disagree with that.
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, when it says Tantra Kanda, it means Purva Mimamsa Sutras, and when it says Sankarsha Kanda, it means Devata Kanda Sutras.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan This quote says that Upavarsha abridges Bodhayana, so it's plausible that verses are same to large extent - the reason for interchangable reference to Upavarsha and Bodhayana.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Yeah, that's a possibility.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan So possible reason for why it's called Sankarsha Kanda is that Sankarshana wrote a commentary on it, although this seems unlikely since commentators aren't usually used to determine the name of the sutras they comment on. we are left with having to explain why Jaimini Sutras are also called Tantra Kanda.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, in the beginning of the Sri Bhashya, Ramanujacharya makes reference to people who have abridged Baudhayana's Vritti: "The lengthy explanation (vritti) of the Brahma-sûtras which was composed by the Reverend Bodhâyana has been abridged by former teachers; according to their views the words of the Sûtras will be explained in this present work."
 
@KeshavSrinivasan This seems strange given the trouble that RamanujAcharya undertook to directly read the last surviving copy of Bodhayana's commentary
@KeshavSrinivasan why would he not directly use Bodhayana's Vritti instead of the abridgements?
 
5:16 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Well, he does directly use Baudhayana's Vritti also. But I have a feeling that the "abridgments" weren't just abridgments, they may have also contained explanations of what Baudhayana was saying, so they might have had useful information that Ramanujacharya could have used in addition to the Vritti itself.
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, here is a quote from Yamunacharya's Siddhitrayam listing various pre-Shankara commentators: "For the sake of this objective, the Sutras were written by Bhagavat Badarayana; they were then explained by the author of the bhashya, which expressed tersely their profound meaning; this was explained in detail by Bhagavat Srivatsankamishra who declared the truth profound as an ocean. Nevertheless people, whose minds have become confused because they relied upon the works, both good and bad, written by the masters Tanka, Bhartriprapancha, Bhartrimitra, Bhartrihari, Bra
 
@KeshavSrinivasan "they were then explained by the author of the bhashya" who is this in reference to?
@KeshavSrinivasan Also, there is a Commentary from Sphotavada Viewpoint!!? Is it lost as well?
 
@LakshmiNarayanan That's a reference to Dramidacharya.
@LakshmiNarayanan No, he's not just listing commentators on the Brahma Sutras, he's just listing people who have written works on the subject of Vedanta. In this case he's referring to Bhatrihari's Vakyapadiya.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan Are you planning to read this soon?
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Yeah, some people hypothesize that it's called Sankarsha because of its commentator Sankarshana. Others hypothesize that it's because Sankarsha means connection, and it's the connecting tissue between the Purva Mimamsa Sutras and the Brahma Sutras.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan FYI, this podcast episode was on Bhatrihari is interesting -> historyofphilosophy.net/bhartrihari
 
5:26 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, Vidyaranya's Madhaviya Shankara Digvijaya says that Vishnu, Shiva, and Kartikeya (Muruga) all incarnated on Earth to write commentaries on different parts of the Mimamsa Shastras. It says Kartikeya incarnated as Kumarila Bhatta to comment on the Purva Mimamsa Sutras, Vishnu incarnated as Sankarshana to comment on the Devata Kanda Sutras, and Shiva incarnated as Adi Shankaracharya to comment on the Brahma Sutras.
@LakshmiNarayanan I've wanted to listen to History of Philosophy without Any Gaps for a long time. They have episodes on Purva Mimamsa and lots of other topics I'm interested in.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan This quote doesn't mention Devata Kanda Sutras at all!
 
@LakshmiNarayanan I've already read large parts of it.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan please update your answer on meta then!
 
@LakshmiNarayanan What are you talking about? It says "Of the 2 kandas comprising the Dharma Mimamsa Shastra, Sabara wrote a very brief commentary on the Tantra Kanda (chaps. 1-12), ignoring the second kanda- Sankarsha Kanda. And likewise, Sankarshana (textual variant- Sankarsha) wrote a brief commentary on the Devata Kanda."
@LakshmiNarayanan Haha, there are some miscellaneous works I left out of my Meta answer because I didn't know how to categorize them. I suppose I could add a Miscellaneous category.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan sorry sudden amnesia lol
 
5:32 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Haha
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, it characterizes Shabara's commentary as "very brief". Shabara's commentary is thousands of pages long. I shudder to think how long the commentaries that came before it must have been :-)
 
@KeshavSrinivasan OMG seriously
 
5:47 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, I should mention that the three parts of the unified Mimamsa Shastra were meant to be a sequence. First a person acquires a desire to know Dharma, and so they read the Purva Mimamsa Sutras to learn about various Yagnas that yield happiness in this life and in Swarga. But then a person realizes that the fruits of all Yagnas are ultimately temporary; even if you do a hundred Ashwamedha Yagnas and become the next Indra, that only lasts one Manvantara.
@LakshmiNarayanan Then the person acquires the desire to know the gods, and so he reads the Devata Kanda Sutras to learn about how to meditate on different gods. But then he realizes that that too doesn't lead to eternal happiness, and so he acquires to desire to know Brahman, and thus reads the Brahma Sutras, which teach you how to meditate on Brahman and thereby achieve the eternal happiness of Moksha.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan Here Gods aren't Indra, etc,.?
 
@LakshmiNarayanan I do mean Indra and the like, i.e. Devas. That's why it's called the Devata Kanda Sutras.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan Why would you meditate on the Gods to know them when the first portion grants you their status? I don't quite follow
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Well, the Purva Mimamsa school was skeptical of the existence of the gods. When I say "a hundred Ashwamedha Yagnas will make you the next Indra", I'm using terminology that you and I would understand. But if we were speaking to a Mimamsaka, they might object to such language; they might not accept even the existence of the current Indra.
@LakshmiNarayanan And they didn't accept the concept of Yugas, Manvantaras, Kalpas, etc. They were weird. They thought the Earth was eternal and humans have lived on the Earth forever without interruption.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan But the Fruit of the Yagna is the overlordship which is called Indra!
 
5:58 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Yes, but they were sort of vague on what this "overlordship" entailed. They weren't even committed to the existence of a place called Swarga. They thought that when the Vedas say that if you do this Yagna you'll go to Swarga, all that means is that when you'll die you achieve some kind of happiness, whether that happiness involved going to some place or not.
@LakshmiNarayanan Also, they believed that the Jiva was omnipresent, unlike the Vedanta school which believes that Jivas are atomic and only Brahman is omnipresent. So for them it was kind of weird to talk about a Jiva going from one place to another.
@LakshmiNarayanan In any case, the Purva Mimamsa school wasn't necessarily committed to the existence of beings like Indra, Agni, Surya, Vayu, etc., so after reading the Purva Mimamsa Sutras a person may think to himself "Hmm, maybe the Purva Mimamsa school is off-base here, and there are gods like Indra, Agni, Surya, etc. out there. And maybe if I turn to them they'll give me a greater fruit than the Yagnas I've been reading about." And that's what leads a person to read the Devata Kanda Sutras
 
@KeshavSrinivasan Now i get it!
@KeshavSrinivasan The whole thing is still weird, but this expectation seems like a natural thing to me, although i would still ask, how can a wish granting being give a greater fruit than the power of sharing its own existence-experience?
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Well, a person might think the Devas are eternal, and so they can make you have eternal life in Swarga as well if you meditate on them.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan but being Indra also gives the same fruit - of being in Swarga and has the total experience of Indra!
@KeshavSrinivasan btw i think we should have a chat event of H.SE for outreach and kindling of interest, what do you think?
 
6:17 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Well, a person might think that whatever status a hundred Ashwamedha Yagnas may provide may be less than the status of Indra. After all, the Purva Mimamsa Sutras don't connect the reward of a hundred Ashwamedha Yagnas to the god Indra, so someone who's just read the Purva Mimamsa Sutras may think these are entirely different things.
 
Please join Purva Mimamsa Patashala room and continue the exposition there.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan I don't think there's a need for a new room, let's just talk here. Lots of people in this room have an interest in Purva Mimamsa.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan I'm just collecting some of the stuff we've been discussing there, so let it just remain as an archive for now.
@KeshavSrinivasan please continue here itself then
 
@LakshmiNarayanan OK. By the way, I should mention that the Purva Mimamsa Sutras begin with "Athato Dharma Jijnasa" - now therefore there is a desire to know Dharma, the Devata Kanda Sutras begin with "Athato Daivi Jijnasa" - now therefore there is a desire to know the gods, and the Brahma Sutras begin with "Athato Brahma Jijnasa" - now therefore there is a desire to know Brahman.
@LakshmiNarayanan In any case, that's what makes the loss of the Devata Kanda Sutras so tragic. Now people can't follow the traditional sequence anymore.
 
please finish this thought sequence 1) http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/37550978#37550978
2) http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/37551007#37551007
3) ?
 
6:27 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Of course, if you perform Sharanagati you don't need to go through that traditional sequence.
@LakshmiNarayanan I mentioned all three parts of the sequence in those two comments. First a person has a desire to know Dharma, then they have a desire to know the gods, and finally they have a desire to know Brahman.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan again stupid amnesia
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Haha
 
@KeshavSrinivasan Yes, it is a powerful tattvam, i don't understand why people think this is easy to do!
 
@LakshmiNarayanan You mean you don't understand why people think that that sequence is easy to do?
 
@KeshavSrinivasan No Saranagati Tattvam is a powerful one, it is non-trivial to accomplish. On the superficial outset people think that it is a simple concept and dismiss it but when you think more, it is very deep concept.
 
6:34 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Well, whether it's a "deep" concept or not, actually doing it is indeed very easy. Both Thenkalais and Vadakalais agree on this point.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan the procedure is easy but getting to a place where the procedure makes sense and you do it - i think that is non-trivial.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan Yeah, it may take countless births before you take birth as someone who has a desire to perform Sharanagati.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan precisely
 
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, Thenkalais and Vadakalais have a disagreement on the issue of Sharanagati vs. Bhakti Yoga. Vadakalais believe that Sharanagati and Bhakti Yoga are both valid paths to Moksha, but Bhakti Yoga is extremely difficult, especially in the Kali Yuga, and Sharanagati is extremely easy. Thenkalais believe that it's not just difficult to get Moksha without Sharanagati, it's impossible. They think Sharanagati is absolutely necessary for Moksha.
 
Do vedas talk of Saranagati specifically? That would be interesting to know -
which verses do
 
6:44 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Yes, Sharanagati corresponds to the Nyasa Vidya, which is one of the 32 Brahma Vidyas given in the Upanishads.
@LakshmiNarayanan The Nyasa Vidya is found in the Mahanarayana Upanishad, which is chapter 10 of the Taittiriya Aranyaka of the Yajur Veda.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan I recently bought an english translation of Mahanarayana Upanishad!
 
@LakshmiNarayanan There are two Mahanarayana Upanishads, one in the Yajur Veda and one in the Atharvana Veda. Which one do you have?
 
let me check
The one from Krishna Yajur Veda
 
@LakshmiNarayanan OK yeah, so that's the one that has the Nyasa Vidya.
 
let me try to see if i can contribute to this question then: hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/8709/…
 
6:51 PM
@LakshmiNarayanan Yeah, that would be good.
@LakshmiNarayanan By the way, one of the common confusions Sri Vaishnava students have when they start their Vedanta education is, "Bhakti Yoga involves meditating on the 32 Brahmavidyas found in the Upanishads, and one of the Brahma Vidyas is the Nyasa Vidya, which is about Sharanagati. So if Bhakti Yoga already includes Sharanagati, why do people call Bhakti Yoga and Sharanagati two distinct paths?"
 
@KeshavSrinivasan please resolve.
 
@LakshmiNarayanan The resolution to the confusion is that the Sharanagati that is part of Bhakti Yoga is called Anga Prapatti, and it's a limited form of surrender designed to clear away sins that stand in the way of Bhakti Yoga. It's different from actual Sharanagati, which involves complete surrender to Vishnu and it removes your entire stock of Sanchita Karma, not just the limited set of Karmas that are obstacles to Bhakti Yoga.
 
@KeshavSrinivasan How is this distinction scripturally arrived at?
 
00:00 - 19:0019:00 - 22:00

« first day (395 days earlier)      last day (2169 days later) »