« first day (1822 days earlier)      last day (2619 days later) » 

12:42 AM
@MonicaCellio Normally that edit is ok. In this case, it invalidates both the answers. Can we encourage the OP to create a new question?
12:59 AM
@MaskedMan the original one was a blatant opinion poll. Yes the edit invalidated answers, but in this case people really shouldn't have answered in the first place. We could delete this question and ask the OP to start over, but that's not really very different from deleting the answers. One of the answers still kind of works and both could be fixed if their authors want to. Eh, it's messy -- feel free to propose something on meta.
1:12 AM
@MonicaCellio Yes, I agree, people should not have answered opinion polls to begin with. One of the answers with "ask your employees what they prefer" is useful, and they answered It without participating in the poll. It now makes for some strange reading. "What are the pros/cons?" ... "Ask your employees." I will make a post on meta later in the day to figure out how best we can handle this question and its answers.
@MaskedMan thanks. I think the "ask your employees" answer can be made to work, perhaps with additional tweaks to the question. I don't know if the other can be made to fit. I don't have time to look at it now, so thanks in advance for your work on this.
5 hours later…
6:17 AM
@MonicaCellio About that study at Carnegie Mellon, do they just ask the people whom they can get emails from?
Or can one sign up to participate in this
@BradC Friendly tip from someone on the sidelines of this. There is no better way to turn lots of people into sexists then to accuse them of already being sexist by the virtue of their gender. If feminism is to ever achieve it's goals the #1 priority needs to be reigning in the zealots in their own ranks. Currently, all that all this shouting and annoying, noplatforming, bullying and getting people fired is doing is turning the larger public against the cause forever.
There really is no winning with bully tactics. You can't use the tools of evil for good. What you've now done is force (yes force) a lot of very left and progressive leaning people to side with the right wing in opposing you because of all the violation of liberal principles and modes of action that you're comitting.
The simple fact is that you need the majority, and if you keep doing what you're doing, progressiveness itself may fade into obscurity giving rise to the new right. It's already happening in america and europe, progressivism is losing ground on all counts left and right, and it saddens me because despite feminist accusations to the contrary I'm very much in favor of women and minority rights and think we have some ways to go in that regard, just that the current strategies of progressives are
making me so uncomfortable in their unethicality that I can't stand in support with them anymore. Me and many others.
To put it bluntly, I cannot support a political movement that relies on bully tactics and silencing opposition to achieve its goals, no matter how noble these may be.
2 hours later…
8:34 AM
Q: What Are The Pros And Cons Of A Bi-Weekly vs Semi Monthly Payroll Schedule?

DomainsFeaturedTo align our accounting efforts, I would like to move our payroll frequency to Semi Monthly on the 5th and 20th (or 15th/30th) of each month. I have read mixed reviews about people preferring every 2 weeks (bi-weekly) to having 2 set paydays (semi monthly). Some say bi-weekly is best because it...

This got a lot of downvotes for initially being title "What do you prefer?" but this seems to be okay now (though I'm going to fix that horrible title case), can this get some upvotes?
3 hours later…
11:46 AM
Q: What is the problem with "Pros and Cons"?

user40980 <Some question about design or product> What are the pros and cons? Sometimes, these questions get closed as 'too broad' or 'primarily opinion'. Why is that?

12:22 PM
I'm honestly starting to think I've found the world's worst coworker. It's like a weaponised form of irritation that's driving me insane.
@Lilienthal How come?
@Magisch Well, he's loud, a boor, has some personal hygiene problems, a grating voice, half a dozen audible or visible tics, difficulty grasping the concept of professional norms. And his work ethic can probably be guessed from the fact that he got himself elected union representative to avoid getting fired. I don't think I've ever seen a person to whom the term half-wit applied more.
@gnat Not quite the same thing on a non-technical site in my view. On a technical site "what are the pros/cons of Java versus Perl" is likely off-topic but even there something like "When does it make sense to switch from X to Y?" might be appropriate. Here such questions typically have a narrower scope and are usually perfectly answerable from experience.
It's less "what do you think is best?" and more "when should I do X?". I think we have or had an explicit mention of rephrasing an unclear question to "what are the pros/cons?" in one of our close reasons as well. "What are the pros/cons?" is usually title short-hand for a question that is often asked as "Should I do X?" instead.
@Lilienthal Sounds like a pleasant fellow
12:39 PM
@Lilienthal If I didn't know better, I'd swear we had the same coworker.
Plot twist, Richard and Lilienthal are actually talking about each other, watch as the details thicken, only here in chat! ;)
On another note @DavidK Thanks for catching that edit, I was googling the quote and thought that was the source. I then found that book was published in 2017 and I had other sources from 2015. Alas, blame my bad research. Seems to be no real origin, though this is the earliest reference I can find to it.
1:02 PM
@Draken I don't know how common it is globally, but in the US at least it's something you hear all the time. To me it's always seemed like one of those things that has just been around forever.
Might make an interesting question over at English Language & Usage
It's not something that I've ever heard in that exact context in the UK, I've had similar sayings, but that does appear to be very specific. I might actually go ask that question over there, as it's piqued my curiosity.
@Draken there is a slight variation in the German culture. If you're more than five minutes early, you are considered rude
@RichardU But that's implying that if you're more than 5 minutes early than the scheduled time, then it's bad, no? I know German culture is to be very punctual and they like their time keeping, but I've never heard of them complaining because someone was too early.
@Draken being early is a minor faux pas, being late is very insulting.
So, still, being early is still preferable.
1:23 PM
@Draken * glances suspiciously to the left *
> This question has an open bounty worth +100 reputation from gnat ending in 7 days.
Dammit @gnat you're costing me meta rep with the downvotes this is getting now. ;)
Q: Boss favors employees of one nationality

J JI worked for hotel x, where my boss blindly supported subordinates of a particular nationality. The persons of the other nationality in the team were never promoted, appreciated, or given a pay hike, he created situations where persons of other nationalities were made to look stupid and tactfull...

Oof, thanks for fixing that title @DavidK
@DavidK I remember that from 10+ years ago too
@Lilienthal Yeah, I can tell this one is going to go south quickly
except I heard it as "if you're late, you're dead"
@DavidK Should probably just be closed immediately so we can see if the OP actually wants to turn it into a constructive question.
Thoughts @enderland ?
First question isn't useful, second he basically answered himself and the last 2 are off-topic.
@Lilienthal Yeah, I just edited out the last two
1:31 PM
@Lilienthal I just made an edit which removed more of the polarizing language
Hmmm, better with those edits. Perhaps "How can I grow professionally in a company that openly discriminates against my nationality?" is on-topic, though I doubt there will be many answers beyond "You can't."
I made a fairly comprehensive edit to remove some of the unnecessary tone and focus this more on an actionable question. — enderland ♦ 13 secs ago
Yeah looks good now.
Not a fan of the title but I suppose it's concise and clear enough.
1:50 PM
I think for environments like that one, leaving is the only option. I was in a similar situation twice. Once when a new manager was hiring people of his race only, and firing and replacing anyone who was not, one by one. Another was where they got rid of people with disabilities after one too many ADA filings.
The problem is that while YES what they're doing is illegal in most areas, nobody has time to be spending years in court fighting such battle.
@Lilienthal yeah HNQ related discussions are always at risk of downvotes now. In the past it was opposite because back then Stack Overflow suffered just like other sites. But now they are protected and have no HNQ pain so to them it is only a matter of keeping having fun (at the expense of smaller sites but since these are not their sites they naturally don't care)
2:28 PM
@RichardU being late in germany is ridiculously bad
avoid at all costs
most german companies really really care about punctuality
@Magisch Oh, I know. Same thing In private matters
It's taken as a HUUUUUUUUGE insult.
There is no such thing as fashionably late in germany
If I invite you for dinner at 6pm, you better show at 6pm and not 6.30
I prepared for that and bent my schedule around it I at least expect you to show up on time
@Magisch YEP!!!!
My GF is Irish and doesn't get it.
While this advice is spot on for this situation, keep in mind that anyone in management has an implied duty of care to their team and for upper management also to the company's interests. Washing their hands of the problem is usually not an option for those profiles. Of course people with that experience should ideally be aware of that already. — Lilienthal ♦ 4 hours ago
@Lilienthal I don't see any explicit advice in that answer.
@Magisch In response to your comment: "There is no better way to turn lots of people into sexists then to accuse them of already being sexist by the virtue of their gender." Is this a reference to something I said in the discussion yesterday? Or a reference to feminism more broadly?
2:35 PM
@BradC More broadly
Mind you, I'm a progressive. Much to some people's ire here. I'm firmly on board with fighting discrimination and bad life circumstances when they happen and I also dislike injustice intensely
He says what the asker should have been doing already. He doesn't explicitly say what the asker should do now. (I also think immediately jumping ship is problematic, and the best answer would tell the asker to make jet fuel out of the lemons, but that's too much to expect, isn't it...)
Yet more ofteh then not I have to oppose feminists because of the tactics they use
Why didn't you put those two comments in the same comment so I could star 'em together?
I care a lot about equality and justice but I wont compromise due process and honest and ethical tactics to get there. Not by a long shot.
Well then there is hope for humanity...
2:40 PM
And I think movements like BLM do themselves a disservice by focusing exclusively on black people. You can fight inner city poverty for everyone and by proxy you will help black people exceptionally more (since it affects them more, due to historical reasons) and still have everyone on board. What they demand however is largely focusing on one race (black people) in these (absolutely justifiable!) efforts to reduce poverty and human suffering, and suddenly all the others who are suffering
Feminism is huge and diverse, with much internal disagreement about goals and tactics and whatnot. I'm sure you can find objectionable examples. I think opponents of feminism try to paint those examples as typical, when they are not.
the same thing (comparably fewer, but still some are suffering) feel left out and disenfranchised. THAT is why progressivism is failing with poor white people
@Magisch so tell me what happens when you get there early? Do people just hang out outside the building? Down the block? What does that look like?
Like it or not these people are deciding the fate of the country you live in, so turning your back on them wont work (see the most recent pres. election in the US)
@Magisch So, Black Lives Matter shouldn't focus on Black people?
2:41 PM
It should focus on issues affecting black people
nobody loses if you change the lives of poor inner city people for the better for everyone instead of just black people
@AaronHall You go for a drink nearby. Maybe a snack. Maybe you sit in the lobby and rehearse. Never be late.
lol@"sit in the lobby and rehearse"
@BradC You can absolutely focus on societal issues like inner city poverty and the school to prison pipeline. You don't have to make it racial these things are really bad itself and you could get most people on board to fight them
This is just a repeat of my conversation yesterday. Black activists can't say "hey, we'd really appreciate it if you'd give us some justice and fairness" without everyone jumping in with BUT WHAT ABOUT THE WHITE PEOPLEZZ!!
"We'd like you to give poor disenfranchised people some justice and fairness"
Suddenly everyone is on board
Maybe you could move the poor to the country to found a village or something - they'd immediately create jobs for themselves, right? Inst-economy.
2:44 PM
Same thing with feminism, every reasonable "you know women really do face some serious issues" is faced with BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MENZZ!!
Because wanting justice more and especially for black people is just overtly racist
I have no issues with concentrating on women's issues
It's actually kind of a hilarious/sad/tragic when you are looking for it - its so annoyingly persistent
Elon wants to build cities...
I have issues when feminists "collect male tears" or think "reverse sexism isn't real I can hate men all I want"
@BradC Maybe because wanting society to exclusively (to the detriment of other issues - most progressives are on an all or nothing approach) focus on one race is pretty much textbook racist
Well, just like misogyny isn't ok, neither is misandry, so you call them out on it.
2:46 PM
"collecting male tears" is mostly humorously sarcastic
And despite what you may think a whole lot of people are just inherently repulsed by racism
No, focusing on real issues faced (primarily) by members of one race *isn'
isn't racist. It's dealing with reality.
As long as you focus on these issues for everyone affected by them
"Lets make college more affordable for poor and traditionally disenfranchised people" is ok "Lets make college more affordable for black people" isn't
"Lets adress police brutality" is also ok
So if you agree that addressing an issue (say, the cycle of punitive courts in the inner city) will help everyone, why can't we still discuss it in the context of BLM?
Just cause you hate the label that much?
Pretty much all of BLM's goals are laudable just the modus operandi of going after them turn people against them
I dont even hate the label
I hate when people tell me I can't possibly have an opinion because I'm white and/or male
2:48 PM
@Magisch No, laughably wrong. There are huge swaths of population in this country that couldn't care less about the plight of black people
It isn't the label that's the problem
If you noticed yet I'm already on your side I'm trying to convince you to be more considerate to win over others
there are just a bunch of tactics commonly used by progressives I disagree with so strongly that I can't help but oppose them when ever they try to use them
And I'm telling you: 1) Your suggestions won't work. People opposed to BLM aren't opposed to it because they don't ask nicely enougyh
And 2) Your suggestions ("tone policing") are a frequent silencing tactic of actual opponents of progressive values, so it is sometimes hard to tell the difference
Among them:

- No platforming
- Silencing opposition
- Shouting down debate
- Declaring whole groups of the population to be "-ist"
- Changing word definitions to make injustice comitted against the majority ok
- Wanting to be shielded from being disagreed with (trigger warnings)
- Getting people fired for political opinions
- Doxxing
All of these I've personally seen comitted by people on my side of most issues
It's disheartening
so oppose those tactics when you see them
I don't approve of them either
I do
BLM has been no platforming agressively
i dont condemn all of BLM for that
they're not a uniform group
2:54 PM
But make absolutely sure you're not seeing those things when they're not actually there. As I said, it is an extremely common tactic (among actual opponents of progressive values) to strawman the positions of BLM or feminists or whatever, when that's not at all what they said or intended.
Of course
but retrograde right wingers are very easy to see and dismiss
"I think women should get equal pay" "You're advocating raises for underperforming women!!" "... what? that's not what I said"
Having to fight someone you agree with because they're attempting to use the tools of evil for good is painful
I used to be a retrograde right winger, so I'm pretty familiar with their beliefs
@BradC Conversely, when they say Lets just pay men less artificially
> Over the weekend, former New York Times executive editor Jill Abramson – fired in part, she says, over conversations about pay disparity – told a reporter that the best way for newsroom leaders with a limited budget to fix salary inequalities is to “bring the guys down to give a little more to the girls”.

“I did that at The Times. No one’s happy to get a cut, but too bad.”
Then it's actually sexist
That right there is a sexist and unfair solution to an actual problem
This is the image progressives project to the world
People don't see the millions of sensible suggestions they see the couple dozen completly idiotic and sadly still not widely condemned nutjobs that outright ruin it for everyone
This is what led to the sad state of affairs that makes it so I have to qualify me being a progressive with "But not like these idiots"
2:59 PM
So not all ideas are great, that goes without saying. But its not the fault of feminism that the Guardian chooses to publish that, or that the anti-feminists pick up that story and spread it far and wide and shout "SEE SEE SEE THIS IS WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO TO US!! WE WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG"
It is the fault of progressives to not go "Obviously thats idiotic" when questioned about it though
It's amusing to me how the media is the worst enemy of progressives
@Magisch Of course they do, if they're asked
It tears me apart to see reasonable people turn their back on issues due to this and so many do
Where is the widespread condemnation for Jessica Valenti (who has been spouting this retrograde sexist bullshit on the guardian for years now) in the same way "sane" right wingers condemn the likes of richard spencer?
There may be reasonable people who do so. But there are also people looking for an excuse to oppose a moment's "tactics" when they don't feel free to admit that they actually oppose their values
3:02 PM
Where is the widespread feminist outcry against the overt and hardcore misandrists like the right wingers condemn the open racists?
Progressivism has an image problem and a tactics problem, not a truth problem
And it angers me because we could legitimately shape the world into something much better if we didn't fail to properly excise the idiots from our ranks
@AaronHall True, but it's implicitly telling the OP to find a new job and not let the troubles of the company concern him. Its short like most of Kilisi's answers but sufficient for an answer I think.
@Magisch Strongly disagree. Image and tactics are used an an excuse by true opponents, and others (who haven't carefully examine the issues) pile on
course they are
but it works
onlookers think "geez progressives are moronic" and the battle for hearts and minds is lost
rightwingers know what they have to do to not appear to idiotic
but its a tactic of opponents. The "image problem" is primarily a strawman of true values. A deliberate distortion, for the most part, of what reasonable progressives believe
we should get on that and beat them with our ideas in the even playing field we need
3:05 PM
And yes, I agree, it has been largely successful
But it's not the fault of activists
and you can fight a strawman
rightwingers know how to fight strawmen
they fight "you're all racist like spencer" by shitting on him every chance they get
We need to do likewise and excise the crazy idiots so people see we're not at all like that
It sucks that real issues play so small a role but thats political reality. We got to use human nature for our cause and not try to resist it
If we were as good at PR as the right wing is we woud have thrown them out of political power a decade ago
You seem to think that (mainstream) feminists don't actively disagree or distance themselves from others with whom they disagree. They do. All the time.
like I said, it's a media problem, they love to show controversial things/people
3:08 PM
You seem to think that because we haven't won the PR game that we're playing it wrong
the irony is that the media nearly all support more progressive types of ideas
The progressive media needs to get its shit together and stop giving these people a platform
@MonicaCellio As promised, here is the meta question.
Q: How do we handle existing useful answers when a question has been modified to fit our site?

Masked ManSee question: What are the pros and cons of a bi-weekly versus semi-monthly payroll schedule? The question started as an opinion poll, but received a couple of answers anyway. It was then edited to a "pros and cons" question (and has received a couple of more answers since). This edit invalid...

@BradC We are, poll after poll shows people side with us against the republicans on nearly all individual issues
@Magisch Except "who will you vote for"
3:10 PM
our ideas arent the problem
@EthanTheBrave Could you please share a link to where to find a definition. I thought it was something like trying to get advantage of others in a society. Actually killing it in the process. — rraallvv 2 mins ago
the fact that the right is better at PR is the problem
they con people into voting against their interest
time and time again
I really just want to post a LMGTFY link, but I don't think that fit's under "Be Nice"...
It's so frustrating to see that a mere PR failure is costing us the societal change we could have had
I don't think its quite that simple, but I think it is part of it. For example, democrats want the government to work, republicans (recently) want to break it, tear it down. It's like playing chess against a pidgeon, you're thinking about your bishop, and they're pooping on the board and knocking over all the pieces.
So do democrats flip the board too? use the same underhanded tactics? Isn't "we want the government to work" a progressive value?
3:14 PM
Democrats in the last elections completly failed to speak to the slowly dying working class in central america
Oh, I see there's a political discussion happening. I'll just let myself out.
you know, the people trump (lied to but still) talked about all the time
the people that won him the election
@BradC "republicans (recently) want to break it, tear it down" <-- I think that this mischaracterization that doesn't really help your cause
@enderland What? They LITERALLY want to destroy and disassemble major departments of our government
Republicans LITERALLY shut the government down during Obama's term, so they could turn around and say "see, the government is really bad at what it does"
This is not a secret tactic. This is a major platform of the republican party
I have to agree with brad there
the american republican party by and large is interested in dismantling the government to the maximum possible extent
3:17 PM
a different vision for government is not the same as "break it"
it means people have a different vision for what it should be
Their vision of the government is nearly no government
Trump's appointments to all the heads of gov depts are LITERALLY (they admit) people poised to dissassemble those departments
makes it all the more bitter progressives threw a sure thing (bernie) away in favor of identity politics
bernie would have crushed trump by 20+ points
@Magisch Ah, no. I'm not going to get into Bernie here, but he was far far far from a sure thing. The Republicans had a DEVISTATING book of dirt on him.
they had even more on hillary
Hillary was peak negative PR
3:20 PM
I'm pretty sure bernie would have demolished Trump
Clinton was literally the worst possible candidate to run vs Trump
she was the epitome of a career politician
Bernie by virtue of not being hillary would have ran away with it hard
trump is a failed businessman orange urangutan with an IQ of maybe 90
everyone knows it
Trump is far more intelligent than people give him credit for
they just couldn't bring themselves to vote for another 100% corrupt career politician instead
Thats why trump will win again if they run tim kaine 2020
It's frustrating that my ideas are represented by a party that is led by complete and total failures when it comes to politics
The republicans dirty as their ideas may be know how to play politics
Because they don't mind lying to their constituancy and promising them things impossible to deliver
And because the democrats frequently fail to call them out on their truly shit ideas in favor of yelling "You're racist and sexist REEEE" instead
There was enough PR dirt on trump to completly forego this line of attack and destroy him utterly on his stated policy alone
But they didn't
3:26 PM
This gets into the convo we had yesterday @BradC - democrats this past election completely failed to acknowledge the "poor white" group of America and Trump didn't, so they voted for Trump
It's not surprising at all to me, though most mainstream Democrats seem clueless as to how that's possible
3:40 PM
Goodness, gracious, you people are tempting me to talk politics on Stack Overflow - and I don't do that. Hit me up on twitter and I'll be happy to tell you how the world works.
@AaronHall Isn't that the way it's supposed to work? The internet isn't there for you to have your own opinion, it's for other people to shout at you their opinion until it's believed. Serious civil discussion on the internet is hard to come by and worth it's weight in gold
Yeah, but if you do it here, you do so at your own risk. I'll stick to speaking my political mind on twitter.
Don't have the energy to rehash the election at the moment. You might not be surprised to find I don't agree with that "common wisdom" about what the democrats failed to do
plus it's friday. I don't have the energy for an intense political conversation again ;)
@BradC Did they not provide enough sandwiches at their events?
3:50 PM
@Draken there will come a day when free food isn't enough to bribe me. but... that day has not yet arrived lol
@enderland I don't think anyone should ever have to make a serious decision on an empty stomach. Food is the fuel of life after all
@Magisch Just been reading through your comments. I may not agree with everything you say, but you sir, are BRILLIANT
@Draken Its all about the catering. Big missed opportunity for the left.
@RichardU I don't think I'd go that far... :D
These days, I'm more of a political atheist than anything else.
3:58 PM
did you guys know there's a room for politics.SE called "agora"?
The one argument I can't get around is "Government sucks, therefore we need more government"
@RichardU And who is arguing that?


General discussion for politics.stackexchange.com
@AaronHall Not sure this discussion belongs there either, probably its own new room under politics.SE
4:02 PM
I just want to say, being cursed at sure convinced me to change my mind. Well, no it didn't, but it was amusing.
opened a new chat room under politics.SE, titled "BLM and feminism", in case anyone wants to continue

 BLM and feminism

Discussion of BLM and feminism, overflow from workplace.SE chat
Don't know that I have much more to say, but if you do, it doesn't really belong here
4:21 PM
Now just add religion to the mix of feminism and politics, and we are all set for a great weekend. :P
@MaskedMan I'm going to a black mass this weekend held by Anton LaVey's group. There's going to be a discussion later about fascist politics and feminism.
@BradC I don't think you'll get many takers
I had a lot of time watching paint dry yesterday
so it was easier for me to be engaged :)
it's best though for this to be more discussion of The Workplace rather than lots of political issues though ;)
4:38 PM
yep. Still sorry for how everything worked out for eipi. Glad the dude's gone, but sorry it turns out her boss (and other managers) knew in advance
(Which is how this whole discussion started)
But glad that she updated us (and her post)
yeah. regardless of the philosophical implications, it still sucked for her
unsurprising really
If the guy was the boss's friend, it's very likely the boss knew that he's a harasser
@Magisch probably there was an understatement on the other guy's fault and naivety on the bosses fault
5:17 PM
5:31 PM
@enderland that got ugly fast.
5:44 PM
it's ok. easier to just move the convo to a dedicated room ;)
I like the constructive discussion
It's been long since I've been able to discuss any of this before being accused from both sides to be some kind of monster
@Magisch I'm pretty sure we're all some kinda of monster, it just depends on how big a monster you are :)
I'm monstrously obsessed with my cat
I didn't think it possible before, but these days, if someone were to harm my cat, I'm pretty sure I'd just end them
meanwhile your cat would only think "why didn't @Magisch feed me when I wanted" :P oh cats. haha
I think my cat is embezzling from me.
5:56 PM
@enderland It is even easier to drop it altogether. ;)
6:15 PM
Q: How do we handle existing useful answers when a question has been modified to fit our site?

Masked ManSee question: What are the pros and cons of a bi-weekly versus semi-monthly payroll schedule? The question started as an opinion poll, but received a couple of answers anyway. It was then edited to a "pros and cons" question (and has received a couple of more answers since, but that's not relev...

6:29 PM
@RichardU Your cat doesn't happen to be red with pointy whiskers and round glasses, does he?
1 hour later…
7:38 PM
@DavidK He did mention taking an HR position somewhere.....

« first day (1822 days earlier)      last day (2619 days later) »