The Reading Room - 2017-03-07 (page 1 of 2)

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12:06 AM

1

Q: Story about two siblings who run away from home and stay in a museum at night

I remember when I was a kid my dad read us a book about two children, brother and sister, who ran away from home, and stayed the night in a museum. They slept under a bed (that was an example of a certain style of furniture, if I remember right), because nobody ever cleaned under there. I'm havi...

story-identification

2 hours later…

2:00 AM

@Mithrandir Hey Mithrandir, post your question.

:-P

@Hamlet The longer we wait, the more opinions and suggestions will come floating in, and the more people are likely to actually participate in it. We don't particularly gain anything by doing it right away rather than in a few weeks. The point of making Emrak's meta post featured is in order to attract as many eyeballs and thoughts as possible, and thanks to caching it isn't even showing up in the sidebar yet. Gotta fall back to my old maxim "patience, my young padawan" on this one.

2

Napoleon Wilson

Gheez, isn't that, like, a day old?

By the way, I'll officially volunteer to help set this thing up once it's ready to get going. I have experience from other sites with running topic challenges; on Puzzling, I was the one who proposed the idea in the first place, worked out a system for organising them, kickstarted the project into life, and finally established a regular system after they'd been running sporadically for a while.

@Emrakul Don't worry, you three aren't alone ;-)

2:33 AM

0

A: Do we want something akin to topic challenges for books outside our bailiwick, to help alleviate the book diversity problem?

Each month (month? discuss:), we pick the top answer, which has been selected by the community for its diversification, either culturally, structurally, or really in any positive way, and those of us who wish to do so go ahead and read it. It can be anything - oral tradition, mythology, fantas...

3 hours later…

5:26 AM

@Randal'Thor I failed. I fell asleep (cc @Riker)

0

Q: Where did the spells come from in The Magic Grandfather?

In The Magic Grandfather, by Jay Williams (published 1979), there are several spells that do certain things. For instance, Aldoragamba luro vopo vir voarchadumia is a transportation spell. Tripsarecopsem helps with the crystal ball. Near the beginning of the notebook of spells he found a desc...

the-magic-grandfather jay-williams

2 hours later…

7:29 AM

@Bookworm I have discovered the problem with asking about stuff that nobody knows about. Nobody looks at it because they don't know anything about it :P

2

2 hours later…

9:09 AM

@Mithrandir ding ding ding. We have a winner. This is why challenges for specific authors or works may be more useful than broad "fill in gaps please" challenges.

If we've got even five people reading the same author or the same work, questions about it will automagically have people who are at least generally in the ballpark of being able to start answering it.

@BESW that's why I mentioned that in my suggestion :)

I don't see it.

...I thought I said it...

3

Q: Why are Dido and Cleopatra in the second circle of Hell?

Dante places Cleopatra and Dido in the second circle of Hell, on account of their lust. However, both queens took their own lives. Shouldn't they be placed in the seventh circle, with the other suicides?

christianity dante inferno divine-comedy

This was flagged for migration to Lit. Although I'm not 100% certain I want it off Myth, I figured I'd ask if it's on topic here first.

What do you all think?

What work is it from?

9:24 AM

Dante's Divine Comedy

Seems legitimately topical for us.

Yep, looks okay.

Cool thanks. I'll probably not migrate it right now - Myth isn't getting a lot of questions, we can't afford sending good ones away. But I'll let the OP know their question would also fit here, and let them decide where they'd post their next one (this is their fourth Dante question).

Sounds good.

user61230

9:43 AM

@Mithrandir This is partially why diversifying our knowledge as readers is important.

11:38 AM

@Emrakul The one issue I see with the top-voted answer being selected for a challenge is that then popular books will be selected. Otherwise, I like your idea and it reminds me of one I had initially earlier.

I think that may be invoking a false equivalence between two uses of the word "popular."

@Benjamin Not if we specifically mention that we're looking for books that most people haven't read yet.

@BESW Yes, but it is my concern that what is 'popular' in one way will also be 'popular' in the other.

The most popular suggestion for a challenge as determined by user votes is, I'd like to think, going to be usefully different from popular as determined by the New York Times Bestseller List or common academic reading lists.

@Mithrandir Yes, I guess that works.

@BESW I hope so.

11:44 AM

If it's not, we can always look for other ways to do it.

Roll a d6 and take the 1st to 6th most popular suggestion as determined by the die. [grin]

Tape the suggestions to cups and have someone's cat knock them off a high shelf--last one standing wins.

Or, you know, just have someone who gets the point of the thing pick a suggestion that will push the reason we're doing it.

We don't have to build elaborate cantilevered contraptions to accomplish simple goals.

...You don't like Rube Goldberg machines?

Oh, I love 'em. I just think they're a sometimes treat.

In amateur RPG design, a common early stumbling block is thinking we need to design brand-new subsystems for each possible contingency rather than trusting players to use a smaller set of basic systems creatively.

It's left me with a sensitivity to over-engineering solutions, especially in the name of neutral arbitration, because often neutral arbitration is unnecessary or even undesireable.

Over-engineered made an appearance on that question too... :P

We've got a voting system, and we've got people who get what the challenges are for. Some combination of those should work for us in most every case.

If/when we run into a situation where those aren't sufficient, it's likely the problem will be something we couldn't have designed for ahead of time anyway.

@HenryWHHackv2.0 Hi!

Henry WH Hack v2.0

Hi!

11:59 AM

@HenryWHHackv2.0 'ello!

Henry WH Hack v2.0

Hi

Wait Hold Up:

@Mithrandir is a MOD! :O

Congrats! :)

...Yes. :P
Thanks! ;)

Henry WH Hack v2.0

How does it feel to be a mod?

in The Sphinx's Lair, Feb 28 at 21:07, by Mithrandir

in The Reading Room, yesterday, by Mithrandir

@DForck42 MY REIGN OF TERROR HAS BEG- *cough* *hack*

Blue?

Henry WH Hack v2.0

12:01 PM

Oh

An idea for a book: Mod Blue.

Illustrated by George Rodrigue?

Henry WH Hack v2.0

No Mod'D Mod

Or perhaps made into a film by Derek Jarman.

...I always get Derek Jarman and Jim Jarmusch mixed up. [sigh]

Current task: remove dead images from SE. (Current site: RPG)

(this includes switching images to the i.stack.imgur url, to avoid them dying in the future)

12:21 PM

@Benjamin I like to think that our meta users have enough sense to get the point of the whole thing and not vote for (or even suggest) popular works like Lord of the Flies for topic challenges.

IMO, both you and @Hamlet are worrying too much about setting up rules to restrict the possible choices for topic challenges. Why not just let things evolve naturally, see what happens, and then establish restrictions only if they're needed?

4

Have some trust in the meta community ;-)

I think Hamlet's guidelines are good ones. They aren't rules.

@Randal'Thor Yes, yes, yes. Exactly.

But they give a good sense of the kinds of things we should be thinking about when making choices.

@BESW I agree with all of them except the first one, if they're intended as "things to bear in mind when up/down voting suggested topic challenges" rather than as "anything not satisfying these conditions isn't eligible".

I'm pretty sure he uses the word "guidelines" and not "rules" for a reason.

Also while I agree that SFF shouldn't be unilaterally banned, I do think it's reasonable to see how many of our users are coming from SFF and think that downplaying that genre in the challenges is reasonable with the actual goal of the challenges in mind.

2

I think your comment on his proposal misses the mark quite widely by attributing intention and motive which aren't present in the guideline as written.

I think it's VERY clear that the community feels free to modify the challenge as needed for whatever circumstances it brings up; I see no reason for guidelines to be phrased as wishy-washy "maybe if we feel like it we should perhaps think about doing it kind of like this" in order to head off some theoretical rules lawyering that the community wouldn't actually stand for.

user image

12:38 PM

@Randal'Thor I don't want to restrict the choices, but I think we shouldn't commit to a hard and fast the highest voted wins, because I think it should be more of a consensus model. I disagree with @Hamlet about putting any restrictions.

@Benjamin How is consensus decided, if not by votes on meta?

I think we should default to "highest voted wins", with the possibility of an executive decision to use a different topic if there's a very good reason to do so.

12:53 PM

1

Q: Does Snape talk in code?

In Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, Snape asks Harry many questions during his first Potions class. The first thing Snape asks Harry is “Potter! What would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?” According to Victorian Flower Language, asphodel is a type...

j-k-rowling harry-potter

@Randal'Thor Yes, this is mainly what I am talking about. I just didn't want us to make a commitment we wouldn't want to keep.

@Bookworm Fascinating. I never knew that.

But now that I answered it, I do :P

1:16 PM

@Mithrandir Really? You should pay more attention to SFF :-P

Or HP fandom.

Also, damn you fast people posting answers while I'm still writing up mine :-/

:P

Your answer is way better than CHEESE's, btw.

More discussion rather than just citing one source.

Thanks!

But I'm hoping to make an even better answer ;-)

It's still not finished yet.

I've got plenty more sources and evidence to add.

*eyebrow* Why post it like this, then? ATM it doesn't add a whole lot, and you already lost FGITW.

1:19 PM

Doesn't add a whole lot? :-/

It adds something.

That his other lines are important.

Free Gift Inside The Wrapper.

I've already put lots of effort into it, and included info about floriography and the surrounding context for the quote which isn't in either of the other answers AFAICT.

Right, yes.

A Frightful Accordion's Incisive Counter-Tempo.

1:21 PM

That sounds... amalgamated.

@Mithrandir What do you think now?

2

A: Does Snape talk in code?

We don't know, but there's a lot of evidence supporting it. The Language of flowers, or floriography, goes back much further than Victorian times. It was used or alluded to in Shakespeare's plays (see also this question) and even the Hebrew Bible. It's unknown whether J.K. Rowling knew about it ...

@Randal'Thor reading

Much ~~beeter~~ better.

Also, congrats @kristan and @Riker on the HNQ.

>.<

Wow, and the Snape question is already on the first page of the HNQ list.

1:34 PM

@Randal'Thor I'm afraid I have to downvote that...

'No research effort'.

It's the first Google result for 'brother and sister live in museum'

@Mithrandir Hmm, so it is.

I'd never heard of it, or even thought to try such a simple Google search.

You should leave a comment on the question to say that though, rather than just explaining your downvote in chat.

@Randal'Thor Too dangerous for @kristan.

If a mod leaves a comment saying that they downvoted, more downvotes are likely to come.

@Randal'Thor :P I was 99% what book it was as soon as I saw the title.

@Mithrandir Well, surely if you think it's so poorly researched, you won't mind other people downvoting it for the same reason?

shrug Up to you. I just think chat is a strange place to explain votes and provide feedback on a specific question.

Ah, whatever. I'll leave a comment...

I'm afraid I have to downvote this for 'No research effort'. It's the first Google result for 'brother and sister live in museum.' — Mithrandir ♦ 13 secs ago

[eyeroll] Are we seriously still hung up on the idea that it's impossible to have a reasonably researched question without using Google?

1:45 PM

@BESW Bing doesn't return a page specifically about the book, but the first result for ''brother and sister live in museum' is a question, with the answer being Mixed-up Files.

Same with DuckDukcGo.

That's... a ridiculously narrow response to my question.

I know :P

Makes me think you're not really interested in the idea I'm asking it sincerely.

Also first result on Yahoo...

The point is...

Any search could have revealed the answer very quickly. That's pretty much the first thing most people would do when looking for a book or something.

Web searches are not necessary for research effort. Even if they are, effective web searches for a particular topic (like looking for a book based on its plot) are an acquired skill that some of our users can share with those who don't have it yet.

To downvote because somebody's not as good as you at using web search functions is... frankly condescending.

1:48 PM

I'm interested in hearing how else you define research effort.

@BESW If I take the title, verbatim, to a Google search, the Wikipedia page is the second result. The first is that question, probably based on my history and stuff.

Well, for example, I thoroughly searched a book for an artist credit before asking about it on this site, and then got downvoted for not taking Wikipedia's uncited article at face value.

I wouldn't downvote for that

And yet.

That's different.

How about "I went and asked my local librarian and she didn't know?"

1:52 PM

The question says nothing about any such effort.

If it had mentioned anything, I most likely wouldn't have downvoted.

Since when do questions have to describe their research effort in order not to get downvoted?

4

See, here's the underlying issue: if you downvote (and thus discourage) all questions that can be answered by simple Googling, lit.se will never become a place that simple Google searches point to.

This isn't ELU.

@Randal'Thor Because then people can't see that any effort happened.

What if they said "I Googled it and found nothing"?

You clearly don't believe that's possible.

So if they make the claim, what then?

1:53 PM

@Randal'Thor 'this question does not show any research effort' is what the DV button says.

@Mithrandir So we should downvote questions like this and this?

Do you recognise that maybe your ability to Google the right phrase is a learnt skill they don't have, or do you accuse them of lying?

@BESW I'm not saying anybody's lying.

No, you're saying that effective web searching is an innate ability available to everyone without training or practice.

...No?

I'm saying that the title of the question is a good enough search term.

1:55 PM

[amused] Did you google the title?

Because you don't say you did.

Yes.

@Randal'Thor @Mithrandir And this and this?

Google also shows different results for each person, FYI. If I google a word, I'm more likely to see something fantasy- or game-related, than an old Canadian woman who's into sports, who will more likely see something sports-related. I can google ordinary terms and get programming-related results because Google's sure I'm after that stuff.

@Randal'Thor Sure, go ahead. That would fit the downvote button.

@doppelgreener That's why I used four other search engines also.

"I googled these words and found this result" doesn't mean anyone else googling the same words will find any of the results you saw.

1:57 PM

I mean, gosh, we don't even require the people read the books they're asking questions about.

@Mithrandir Aren't those other search engines also trained on your past searching history?

@Randal'Thor Yes. Unless they're DuckDuckGo, in which case, maybe.

@Randal'Thor DDG specifically states no. I've never used the others, so.... *shrug*

If not reading the material doesn't trigger the "no research" button, I don't see how "doesn't mention Googling the question" does.

This seems like we should have some basic good faith assumptions going on.

On the other hand, downvotes are still everybody's to do with as they wish. If @Mithrandir wants to downvote that question for being easily Googleable, it's his good right to do so.

2:00 PM

@Randal'Thor It's also significant whether we have it in our community zeitgeist that questions of that nature should be downvoted.

Sure.

@BESW If you haven't read the book and ask something completely obvious, then yes, I will downvote. If you haven't read the book and ask something not obvious, I most likely will not downvote for that reason.

Communities do form unwritten agreements on what kinds of things should and shouldn't be voted on in certain ways.

@Randal'Thor Absolutely. But I feel free to give a moderator a piece of my mind about leaving a comment telling people they have to explain that they Googled before asking.

@BESW Right, that would be implying certain community expectations very heavily.

2:01 PM

But the broader community response to most questions so far suggests that most people aren't downvoting questions just for being easily Googleable.

On RPG.SE we don't suffix each question with:

* I read the book
* I didn't google this
* I did ask my librarian

...

Right, but also story-identification questions are, ATM, going to be held to a higher standard, because of what happened to the last Lit. (I think.)

We just expect that if someone's asking a question, they've made a reasonable attempt to resolve it for themselves. We only really start bringing in severe scrutiny when someone says "Hey, how does magic work? What are cantrips?" when the game's primary manual has an entire section called MAGIC and a subsection called CANTRIPS and both are in the table of contents -- we tell them "try reading the book first, and tell us where you get stuck."

@Mithrandir Is there a meta about requiring more rigorous evidence of research for story-id? Is there a community consensus?

@Mithrandir Well, I suspect some people (about whom I shall say no more) are downvoting story ID questions just for being story ID questions.

2:03 PM

@Mithrandir As an elected moderator of the site, requesting specific actions of a question is effectively introducing formal policy.

If so, link it in your comment. If not, have that meta discussion.

I've even seen people trying to apply M&TV standards here and close-voting perfectly answerable story-ID questions.

Consider yourself to be seen as a representative of the community's will and the site's policy, whether or not you're expressing what is merely your own viewpoint.

@BESW No. So we should have that conversation.

@Randal'Thor ...That's a different problem.

It's not fair that mods can't take visible actions as ordinary citizens, but it's absolutely true.

2:04 PM

@doppelgreener I disagree with that. Moderators can leave comments and express opinions with their 'mod hat' off, without those opinions necessarily reflecting site policy or community consensus.

The Blue Text doesn't rub off.

except mods should make it clear their mod hat is "off" if thats the case

@Randal'Thor They will be seen as representing site policy or community consensus or acting on the community mandate, especially to newbies, unless they make it very clear it's their personal un-mandated stance.

@Himarm Sure, I can go edit the comment to say that.

@Himarm Sure.

2:05 PM

@Himarm Yes, indeed.

I've never seen a mod successfully "take off the hat." Most of the time in my experience mods who want to regularly take off the hat get their back up at the idea that the hat's always on unless they take it off.

"It's my personal feeling that you should be googling this. What have you tried? -- Mithrandir ♦" is a whole different beast from "You should be googling this. What have you tried? -- Mithrandir ♦"

I'm afraid I have to downvote this for 'No research effort'. It's the first Google result for 'brother and sister live in museum' or the title of this question (verbatim). Note: This is my own personal opinion. I'm not saying anything about site policy here, just my own personal standards (which, ATM, are higher for story-ID then other questions). — Mithrandir ♦ 30 mins ago

@BESW Yes. There is a moderator on RPG.SE who for a while professed to generally having their hat off -- it doesn't work. They will be seen as having their mod hat on by everyone at all times unless they are making a specific and very clear claim that the hat is off at the time.

@BESW i have yet to see this as well

2:08 PM

@Mithrandir See, being a mod isn't all fun and games and hammers :-)

@Randal'Thor *gasp in horror* Really??

@doppelgreener Even then, it can be difficult to make work. It requires the mod to exercise great restraint and transparency when the hat is on, or the community will slowly develop suspicion that the hat is being used in furtherance of non-hat agendas.

@BESW Yes, indeed; we saw that in action and the community skepticism and response it can generate more than once in multiple people.

14

Q: Can Mods "Take Off Their Hats"?

While moderator positions are voluntary, I've always understood them to be full-time in the sense that there is no time a moderator is temporarily just a regular user. As I've seen it, with great power comes great responsibility™. Once a person becomes a moderator, all actions they take - whethe...

user image

2:10 PM

Okay, I've made it clear now that this is my own personal opinion. Are we finished Mith-bashing now? :P

This is one reason I don't mod.

Although, thanks, this conversation was informative.

@Mithrandir Please don't see it as Mith-bashing. This isn't personal. This is: you have taken up a particular set of responsibilities; we are expressing to you urgent feelings about our expectations regarding how those responsibilities are attended to and minded. Interpreting feedback on what you're doing in your position from those people the position represents as "bashing" is a road to ruin for yourself and those you interact with.

I know that; hence the :P.

The :P doesn't do what you think it does, then.

(It might soften the severity of the words you said, but it doesn't un-say the words, and seeing this stuff as "bashing" is inadvisable.)

2

2:15 PM

Okay, I'm not taking it personally, I was kidding when I said that.

That's good then.

Thanks for listening to us.

@doppelgreener Heheheh.

@BESW Hahaha

@BESW I saw the title and wondered if this was a HP question, then saw the tags and decided it wasn't, then saw "Muggle" in the text and got really confused.

(Also, it's probably a bad idea to flag the comment that we've just spent half an hour discussing when the mod who created it is active. I'm not doing anything with the flag, leaving it to Hamlet and Emrakul.)

2:20 PM

Having Googled it ... some kind of HP fanfic?

Yup. Novel-length HP fanfic.

I highly recommend it. In many ways Hall is a better, more nuanced author than JKR, and suffers mostly from not having a professional editor. Also she writes more in the style of a golden-age mystery author, which I love.

@Mithrandir Good. As a general rule, don't decline flags on your own stuff, ever, even if you think it's an obvious case. That's part of why SE sites have mod teams.

(And I don't see why the fact that we've discussed it for half an hour makes it a bad idea to flag it - especially if the flagger is someone who wasn't involved in this discussion.)

@Randal'Thor Because if I've just spent half an hour defending it...

@Randal'Thor Right, I kinda assumed that.

...actually, Hall's HP/Vorkosigan crossover is how I first learnt about Lois McMaster Bujold.

@Mithrandir ... then it might still not be a good comment. (I'm not saying it isn't, and I wasn't the flagger, but it isn't necessarily worth keeping just because you've spent half an hour defending it.)

2:27 PM

@Randal'Thor I woke up this morning and thought my eyes were decieving me

I gained 135 rep from that :p

@Mithrandir rip

2

Q: What's the significance of Draco's reading material?

In chapter 2 of Lust Over Pendle, we see a pile of books and magazines that Draco's been using to study for pretending to be a Muggle: Draco gestured at the window seat of the breakfast room. It was piled high with Muggle magazines; she spotted Living etc, Elle Dec, Tatler, Country Life, FHM ...

aj-hall lust-over-pendle

@Riker van winkle?

idk

all I know is my head is killing me and I'm hallucinating

so imma prolly go lie down somewhere and think about my life

Aww :-( Feel better soon!

@Riker No more jalapenos for you...

2:30 PM

BTW, @Mithrandir, I would've dismissed any Google result saying "Mixed-Up Files" because they don't sleep under a bed in that book. It requires familiarity with the work and a modicum of effort to filter the querent's faulty memory into useful correlation for these kinds of questions.

@Mithrandir this isn't those i don't think

I had the familiarity but didn't put in the effort.

this is just a combination of a migraine and allergies

@BESW they do?

@Riker They sleep in a canopied bed.

ah

I honeslty thought they did sleep under it lol

2:31 PM

@BESW Yes, working out which parts of the question can actually be discarded as incorrect recollection is part of the art of answering story-ID questions. As seen in the famous 3:33 question on SFF which was actually 5:55.

yeah

I could go double-check, I've got two copies of the book, but they're old and neglected enough that I'd have allergy trouble too if I did.

(link for those who don't know that question)

@BESW I just did and you're right

"Jamies climbed into bed"

@Randal'Thor that's such an epic answer

The querent missed all the things I found most memorable, like bathing in the coin fountain.

2:33 PM

@Riker The most bountied answer on the entire SE network.

oh cool

lol

user image

4*500 + 2*250 + 1*500 + 1*100 + 1*50 = 6*500 + 150 = 3150

that's a lotta rep

@Randal'Thor There was a period where I could not for the life of me get the number in Metro 2033 right without checking a source every single time.

holy shit

that guy has the exact same amount of rep on SO and SFF

i.stack.imgur.com/9e1cK.png -

(Now there's a book we could ask some lovely questions about.)

i.stack.imgur.com/8gBR5.png -

2:37 PM

@Riker With one post on SFF and three hundred on SO.

yes lol

He also seems to have a thing about dropping in to new SE sites and providing excellent one-shot answers. (Assuming that's the same guy, even though the accounts aren't linked.)

@Randal'Thor He does have an account on ELU.

...his activity on RPG.SE is kinda disheartening.

Three upvotes, no downvotes, no questions, no answers, no edits, no useful flags, two comments one of which is advocating bullying back against mean players.

lol

btw, can mods see all hidden accounts of a user?

on the page of their site

2:41 PM

yes

oh cool

@BESW IIRC, they do hide under a bed at one point...

3:23 PM

imgur.com/gallery/A4kFu

2 hours later…

5:02 PM

@Benjamin note that I specifically said guidelines, not restrictions. CC @Randal'Thor

@Randal'Thor fwiw that took a while to find

my googlefu was not en pointe that day

6:01 PM

0

Q: Time-turning in the Harry Potter World.

In Harry Potter, and the sequels (and prequels), there are many mentions of time turning. How does this work? There are many flaws. For example, say: You time turn one hour back, and you see yourself, who is that self? Is that the self you were in 'an hour ago', (but actually now), or is that ...

j-k-rowling harry-potter theory

Michel Strogoff part 1 chapter 5 first says the market is in the city for 3 weeks, then later says it's for 6 weeks. Why do the two numbers differ? I don't understand. fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Michel_Strogoff/Partie_1/Chapitre_5

@Bookworm WTF not this again!

6:30 PM

@b_jonas sounds like you have a question...

@Mithrandir Yes, I'm writing it now.

Though it's a rather banal question.

0

Q: Versions of Watership Down

I have the 2005 version of the Book Watership Down. I have just read it, and also, I have read an online review about Watership Down. The summary doesn't seem to fit the storyline I have read, leading me to think there are different versions of it. Can anybody confirm (or disprove this)?

> I'm downvoting this question because I wish that the attitude of interpreting rules of magic literally would stay on the Science Fiction and Fantasy website. Looking for logical flaws in a magic system just doesn't tell you anything about the meaning of a story.

6:57 PM

16

Q: Please stop "pushing" stuff away to other sites

I keep seeing comments left on questions to the regard of: I think this question would be more appropriate for the Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange or You should ask this on SFF instead These comments are at best annoying and at worst undermine the potential for this site. ...

user61230

@Randal'Thor To be fair, I think Hamlet's identifying something that's a systemic problem, which is, well, taking the author too literally.

3

user61230

(Separating "should they be moved?" from the issue identified, so we don't conflate them.)

user61230

I mean, most of the highly upvoted questions on SciFi have this assumption, and it's not one that's valid under nearly any literary lens.

user61230

Why do Federation starships wait to fire? Because the writing is better that way.

@Emrakul "Should they be moved?" is the issue I'm talking about. I'm not disagreeing that these aren't great questions; what I object to is saying "go to SFF instead".

user61230

7:06 PM

@Randal'Thor Oh, gotcha.

0

Q: How long is the Nijni-Novgorod trade fair?

In Jules Verne, Michel Strogoff, part 1 chapter 5, when Michel arrives to Nijni-Novgorod, there's a huge trade fair going on in the city. The text seems to give two contradictory numbers about how long the trade fair is. Nijni-Novgorod, qui en temps ordinaire ne compte que trente à trente-c...

0

Q: Did Plutarch Heavensbee actually not know the details of the Quarter Quell?

At one point (in the book, at least), Plutarch Heavensbee claims that he didn't know that Katniss was going back into the Games. This would seem very odd if true, especially given that he was the head Gamemaker and was already involved in the conspiracy against the Capitol. Was he lying? If so, w...

suzanne-collins the-hunger-games

0

Q: How did they plan the conspiracy against the Capital given mass surveilance?

The books and movies strongly imply that President Snowe was using mass surveillance (e.g. When he revealed that he knew about Katniss and Gale having kissed). Between that, President Snowe's paranoia, and the fact that Snowe would presumably be watching Plutarch Heavensbee carefully given what h...

suzanne-collins the-hunger-games

Oh look, Hunger Games questions. I should probably try to answer these.

multitasking intensifies

3

lol

@Randal'Thor Even though these questions are being asked by people who come to this site from the SFF site and are assuming that our norms are the same as SFF's norms, in the future I will not mention SFF, I will just point out that these are bad questions

user61230

Is anyone else having trouble understanding what this user is asking here? I feel like I'm staring into mud that's trying to be glass. Maybe it's a language barrier?

7:14 PM

Also the Hungarian text talks about criminals released from prison, the English text about birds released from cages, and the French version talks about both, unless one is intended to be some sort of a metaphor for the other.

@Emrakul they're trying to understand if their copy might have been abridged, because the reviews don't match their copy. That's how I understand it.

@Emrakul he read some review that mentions a scene he claims to not have had in the version of the book he read

user61230

Gotcha. Okey-doke.

> au-dessus de toute cette foule, une nuée d’oiseaux s’échappaient des cages dans lesquelles on les avait apportés. Suivant un usage très-suivi à la foire de Nijni-Novgorod, en échange de quelques kopeks charitablement offerts par de bonnes âmes, les geôliers ouvraient la porte à leurs prisonniers, et c’était par centaines qu’ils s’envolaient en jetant leurs petits cris joyeux…

@Hamlet The user who asked that Time-Turner question doesn't even have an account on SFF.

7:21 PM

@Randal'Thor Yes, but we have a lot of those questions on SFF.

user61230

@Randal'Thor To be fair, this problem isn't localized to SFF. It appears constantly everywhere. (And incidental exposure to SFF is also precedent-setting.)

@b_jonas True, and some of these questions are being asked by people familiar with SFF. But it rubs me the wrong way to see a new user, one without an SFF account, join Literature and then get told by a mod to go to SFF instead.

@Randal'Thor Yes, he should be told to read particular dup questions on SFF instead.

Wait, what happened to the question? It looks like it's deleted.

so, I've been reading The Princess Diarist by Carrie Fisher, and I honestly don't like the style of it

Did the poster delete it?

7:26 PM

They removed it voluntarily.

Without knowing who the reviewer was or what they said about the book, this question is awfully difficult to evaluate. Is there any way you could indicate who it was, or where it might be possible to find a copy of their review? — Emrakul ♦ 11 mins ago

@Emrakul It sounds like the reviewer may be someone the OP knows personally; at any rate, they're clearly trying to protect their identity. I doubt they'll be willing to do this.

@Mithrandir Oh pity. We shouldn't have scared away that much.

user61230

@Randal'Thor That's true, but it doesn't hurt to ask... given that, it is necessary to properly answer the question.

user61230

If they can't provide that information, it's not answerable.

@Emrakul I'm trying to decide whether to VTC as "unclear what you're asking".

user61230

7:27 PM

@Randal'Thor I'd be hesitantly in favor.

@Emrakul The question of "are there different versions of Watership Down?" is answerable, regardless of what that particular review may or may not have said.

The review provides motivation for asking the question, but it isn't necessary to answer it.

user61230

That's true, but the question seems to be asking "why is this review different?"

user61230

Not, "are there different versions of Watership Down?"

user61230

Or, at minimum, it's asking "are there versions of Watership Down that could lead to these differences by this reviewer?" which absolutely requires knowledge of what differences the reviewer has.

Mmm, true.

But if (as I suspect) all versions are essentially identical - different covers or whatever, but same text - then the question is answered regardless.

It's only if there are versions with significant differences that the details of the review become relevant.

user61230

7:31 PM

That's reasonable. On the other hand, it can be hard to say, without having read them side by side...

user61230

Because it seems like the differences OP is picking up on are... pretty minor, at best.

In the list I found, nearly all the editions seem to have the same page count, with slight (and consistent) differences between paperback and hardback.

what Q?

That's already suggestive. And I didn't spend much time on this - just a quick Google search threw up that link.

-3

Q: Versions of Watership Down

I have the 2005 version of the book Watership Down. I have just read it, and also, I have read an offline review about Watership Down. The summary doesn't seem to fit the exact details I have read, however, leading me to think there are different versions of it. Can anybody confirm (or disprove t...

user61230

@Randal'Thor I'd trust that as a good indicator, though not a rigorous guarantee.

7:59 PM

Sorry guys, I didn't think it fit SFF

1

Q: Is the treatment of Jar Jar Binks in Aftermath:Empire's End a reflection of audience treatment?

In one of the Interlude scenes in the book Star Wars Aftermath: Empire's End, a child interacts with Jar Jar Binks, and gives more details about how the adults don't like him due to their beliefs that he helped the Empire come into being. However, the kids love him because he's a funny clown. I...

character-analysis

@Bookworm hm, interesting point

are movie novelization and spinoffs still on-topic?

I'd say yes, as long as it's specifc to the book

@Riker Yes.

8

Q: Are novelizations of films (or television) on topic?

Quite simply asked, novelizations are literature, but they started as "screen" works. Should they be considered on-topic?

discussion scope

ah, ok

@CBredlow Well it is an SFF work, so it would fit SFF too, IMO.

8:05 PM

@Skooba But wouldn't it be opinion based for SFF?

@CBredlow that would be a fault of the question not the site. Unless character analysis is off-topic on SFF which I don't think it is.

SFF actually has a very broad scope. Other site Like M&TV and Lit don't allow fandom questions

SFF would close a lot of questions as "too broad" or "primarily opinion-based" which are fine here.

Literary analysis is by nature more subjective than the canon-based stuff that SFF generally prefers.

@Skooba that's what reddit's for ;-)

(disclaimer: I know that it's a difference in the sites, I'm just poking fun, please don't take that seriously)

1

Q: Why was my question about Watership Down downvoted?

This is a copy of my question about Watership Down, which I have since deleted. I have the 2005 version of the book Watership Down. I have just read it, and also, I have read an offline review about Watership Down. The summary doesn't seem to fit the exact details I have read, however, leadin...

discussion support down-votes

@Librarian cause we're meanie heads

8:17 PM

@DForck42 yeah if you are a fan of dank memes ad food pron

@Skooba I like them dank memes

@Randal'Thor that's why I asked it here, and left my other jar jar question on SFF. I've got more jar jar questions, but I'll gradually release them instead of spamming

oh and don't forget r/cute

@Skooba r/aww

r/PrequelMemes

8:20 PM

@CBredlow r/ redacted

that didn't work like I wanted it to

r/watchpeopledie

r/TheEmpireDidNothingWrong

@Himarm I get enough of that on r/wtf

then theirs the fun subs

with the lack of clothing

though my favorite right now is r/4chan

@Himarm eww

i just had a funny thought, what if we allowed questions in regards to works published on r/writingprompts?

8:33 PM

@Emrakul literature.stackexchange.com/questions/1974/… See my comment

@DForck42 We already established that any self-published writing was on topic, so that would count.

8:45 PM

@Mithrandir A.J. Hall does not put a space between her initials. Are we really going to "correct" atypical but internally consistent syntax in tagging?

For that matter, neither does J.K. Rowling (though Wikipedia does) or the Tolkien Estate (again, Wikipedia standardises).

...Maybe it's a British thing? [pokes around]

To meta!

...consistency is good.

@BESW Since tags can't include spaces, that may be a way to make it clear. But, I don't have any strong thoughts, just throwing that out there.

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