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12:16 AM
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Q: Is the Dragonriders of Pern series science fiction or fantasy?

Rand al'ThorThe Dragonriders of Pern is a series of many loosely connected stories set on the fictional world of Pern. It has elements of fantasy (being set on a world with medieval-level technology, it has all the hallmarks of classic fantasy in terms of the atmosphere and 'feel' of the story - plus, well, ...

 
@Bookworm mu
 
@BESW Coefficient of friction?
 
@Randal'Thor No, the philosophical concept of a question to which there is no answer, yet considering the question is still worthwhile.
 
@BESW Isn't that what a lot of literary analysis is about?
 
In the sense that we think of literary analysis through primarily Western epistemology, and mu is a Zen Buddhist concept, yes.
[grin]
The Stack Exchange isn't good with mu.
 
12:22 AM
Oh, I thought it was just the sound a cow makes...
maybe they're making that sound because they're engaged in worthwhile consideration of questions to which there is no answer
 
Ruminating on them, perhaps.
 
(To be clear, my representation of mu is itself very Western. There are subtleties and contradictions inherent within it that are nigh impossible to remove from their original epistemology.)
 
@Randal'Thor oh man, you're too clever for me
 
(mu can just as easily be said to mean that the question is worth doubting.)
(or even that mu is the sound of not trying to answer a question.)
 
I'm too tired to ponder that right now... been proofreading a rather tangled-up document all day, on the computer, with nothing to eat but one peanut-butter sandwich... I need a vacation.
 
12:28 AM
....Don't use Wikipedia to understand mu.
 
Alternating between proofreading said tangled-up document, and engaging in a discussion of whether people in the "toki pona taso" FB group should correct each other's toki pona grammar... which discussion nearly turned into a grammatical dispute.
 
@DForck42 This is not off-topic and you should stop acting as if it is.
 
@BESW Sounds deep.
(Not sure how it sounded, but I don't mean that sarcastically.)
 
@Randal'Thor Heh. Zen Buddhist philosophy is very nuanced, and seems even more esoteric and wild to folks with an ethnoepistemology that regards science and individualism as primary sources of truth.
(BTW, to be clear, Western lit analysis is not anything like mu at all: lit analysis offers many answers which can be regarded as equally valid, while mu indicates that at best all answers are equally invalid, but more accurately that true contemplation of the question will not yield any answers at all--and yet the contemplation is valuable.)
 
@BESW I keep feeling irredeemably western when I read what you write
 
12:39 AM
It's kind of an Ithaca.
@amaranth It's okay to be Western. But it's also always good to be aware of what about one's world is mutable and defined by context.
2
Epistemologies of ANY sort are inherently difficult to see past or through, because they shape assumptions about our reality which are so fundamental it takes active work to recognise they're assumptions and not just organic truths.
 
I'm starting to wonder if my diet of 100% science fiction, fantasy, and literature from Victorian England is hemming in my worldview or something :-|
4
 
The more we meet other ways of thinking--both inside and outside our own epistemologies--the broader our minds can turn.
@amaranth I'd say yeah, that's probably not helping.
[rummages for book]
Hah. Try Mycroft Holmes by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (yes, the NBA athlete).
It may function as a gateway novel if you're interested.
 
thanks
will my brain explode?
 
I dunno. It's not epistemology-challenging like Leaves of the Banyan Tree or Story of Your Life, but it's likely to shake up some of your ideas about period and culture.
 
I'll change my avatar to a puddle of wax if necessary after reading it
 
12:49 AM
(BTW, the film "Arrival" dramatically changed the central conceit of Story of Your Life because the script-writer didn't understand what Chiang was talking about.)
(But he didn't know he didn't understand--he thought he understood but disagreed, and wrote "Arrival" as a rebuttal to his misunderstanding of Chiang's point. That's what epistemology clashes often look like.)
 
my candle is melting already
all I know about Arrival is one trailer
 
Both short story and film have a clever twist, but it twists in opposite directions for each.
Ostensibly it's sci-fi about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, but I read Story as using SWH as a tool to deliver commentary on the psychology of people living in multicultral contact zones. That's probably just me bringing my perspective to it, though.
 
user15026
@Bookworm I'd say you could consider the stuff before Landing/at the beginning of Landing scifi maybe, but teh rest I'd say is pretty firmly fantasy in my eyes. (although it gets weird when you consider some individual books, like when they have that plague/illness thing and the whole saved tech to teach them to solve it)
 
user15026
Although I don't have enough thoughts to make a full answer
 
@Ash I think it's a good example of how genre is more about who the book is marketed to, than about the content of the book.
Pern mostly follows the narrative forms and conventions of fantasy, and the visual trappings of fantasy, but it's solidly sci-fi in its actual worldbuilding.
In detail it's more like Lords of Light but in function it's more like The Dinosaur Lords.
 
12:57 AM
@BESW Sounds like you've got the makings of a good answer there.
 
(All three series are about spoiler, but each varies the correlation of scientific justification vs supernatural justification.)
> Any sufficiently advanced society will mistakenly believe all magic to be unknown technology. -Dean Koontz, The Taking
(If I wanted to get burnt in effigy, I could also mention Star Wars.)
@amaranth Other relatively gentle brain-melters that are further from your "Victorian England" comfort zone: Okorafor's Lagoon and Leckie's Ancillary Justice (that one's first in an excellent trilogy).
 
@BESW thanks. I'll take a look soonish.
 
If you like Mythos stuff, try Victor LaValle.
 
Mythos?
 
Lovecraftian horror.
 
1:12 AM
oh that
 
LaValle writes novels set in and near the Mythos, but with black people claiming their rightful agency as protagonists. I found Ballad of Black Tom very affecting, and I couldn't finish Devil in Silver.
 
why couldn't you finish it?
 
It's... interesting, I guess you could say. Harrowing is another word. A central conceit of Mythos literature is that the revelation of one's insignificance to the grand scheme of the universe will drive men mad. LaValle explores what revelation might mean to groups of people who are told their entire lives, personally and by the institutions of society, that they're insignificant.
 
I've never read any Lovecraft, but depictions of mental illness freak me out, so it worries me a bit
 
Lovecraft himself did not handle depictions of mental illness well at all.
But then, Lovecraft wasn't very sympathetic to any marginalised persons he wasn't directly associated with.
It's a legacy that other writers in the Mythos vein have been struggling against ever since.
LaValle is writing in that context, of claiming a significant spot in the Mythos for people who Lovecraft treated very poorly indeed.
On a brighter note, you might try the new comic series Yohancé.
And of course MedievalPOC's Fiction Week tag is a great resource.
It's curated more toward books that feature people of colour rather than specifically books with marginalised or non-Western cultural experiences, but there's a good bit of overlap between those topics.
 
1:30 AM
hmm
looks like I need to allocate more of my free time to reading
playing Skyrim doesn't seem to broadening my horizons
 
1:42 AM
Is it just me or has anyone else been rejecting many of the tag excerpt edit that end with "Use in conjunction with author". I feel like these are pointless and redundant.
 
vanity, vanity, all is vanity
 
@fi12 I'm been approving them because they provide usage guidance for the tag, which is exactly what a tag wiki excerpt is supposed to do.
Although it's true that someone is going a bit Crazy Eddiet with tag wiki excerpts.
 
@BESW wow, I need to find time to read LaValle
 
2:09 AM
@Hamlet What in particular recommends him to you?
 
 
4 hours later…
user61230
6:19 AM
At least nobody can complain that my latest answer doesn't want for sources.
 
@Emrakul Great answer! I just up voted :)
 
I spy a squirrel :-o
 
@amaranth Hey there!!!!
 
hello squirrel
 
Have you asked your question over here yet?
 
6:24 AM
what question? the one I don't have anymore? :-\
 
Awwwww. What happened?
 
I figured out the answer
I had a question or two about Christabel, but not anymore
 
Bummer. I hate it when that happens.
 
my new quest is related to those 5 stars I got ---->
@steelersquirrel having knowledge is so pesky :p
 
Hehehe! Are you saying that you will be reading other genres now? ;)
 
6:26 AM
apparently
 
user61230
It's so very worth it.
 
BESW will introduce me to the world of non sci-fi/fantasy and English literature
^ there are lots of reading suggestions in the transcript
 
BESW frightens me with the amount of knowledge that he/she has ;)
4
 
I think my brain is going to melt
I'll have to punctuate my reading with Taylor Swift videos to re-solidify my brain
 
A J
Ha I found another Taylor Swift fan.
 
6:30 AM
Dammit! ;)
 
I mainly like her because steelersquirrel doesn't
3
muahahaha
 
Hehehe! Yeah, Ankit and AJ like to inform me whenever they listen to her ;)
 
I'm listening to some sort of Russian club music right now though
because the language sounds cool
 
user61230
 
user61230
@amaranth This? This is BESW's fault. You're not the only one. ;)
 
6:32 AM
^ that was one of the suggestions
my impending melting brain is BESW's fault, but not my music choices... pretty sure....
 
Yeah...Taylor Swift doesn't melt anyone's brain or anything ;)
 
she melts different portions of my brain
@Emrakul oh wait, that was just a ping, not a reply. yes, that is BESW's fault
 
@amaranth Mine too. Pretty sure that they are not the same portions of the brain, though :P
 
pfft
you know she's cute. ADMIT IT. :p
 
Yeah...until she opens her mouth ;)
 
A J
6:38 AM
I do listen to her whenever I feel sleepy so I can stay awake.
 
@steelersquirrel ಠ_ಠ
 
A J
@steelersquirrel O.O
 
if a girl has a nice enough voice, I'd listen to her reading the phone book all day
 
Hehehe!
 
A J
I always get confused between avatars of Emrakul and Himaram.
 
6:45 AM
they're kind of similar
 
Well...when in doubt, Emrakul spells correctly :P
 
A J
Yes
@steelersquirrel hehe
 
God Love Himarm ;)
 
 
6 hours later…
1:05 PM
1
Q: How old was Tatiana during the main events of "Eugene Onegin"?

GallifreyanEugene Onegin is a novel in verse, by the great Russian poet Alexander Pushkin. The main characters are Eugene Onegin, a young and bored man, and Tatiana, an even younger girl who falls in love with Onegin. Onegin is said to be in his twenties during the main events of the novel, but I don't ac...

@DVK waiting for an epic answer on this ^^^
 
1:18 PM
I have some tag wiki edits in need of review
 
1:47 PM
@Benjamin Yeah, I noticed ...
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1:58 PM
@HDE I think this only needs one more "Recommend Deletion" to get deleted.
 
> This item is not reviewable.
 
@HDE226868 Oh. Is that because you flagged it or something?
 
I saw it when it was posted and flagged, but the system's been funky, apparently.
Maybe that's how it's supposed to work.
 
Right. I think we're not allowed to review LQPs which we ourselves have put in the queue by flagging.
That's why I can't review it either.
I just voted to delete, as a Trusted User, but that only made the counter go to "delete (1)" rather than counting as the final vote.
 
Urg. I wish I could improve suggested edits to wikis.
@Benjamin Lois Lowry is a woman, not a man.
 
2:02 PM
@HDE226868 I can, but I'm out of reviews for the day.
Go and get yourself some more rep! :-)
 
I would if I could. Still looking for something I can answer.
2
 
2:34 PM
When will the mods be announced?
 
Huh, I got a -1 from "User was removed". Someone who'd upvoted one of my questions and downvoted me twice?
@Gallifreyan Who knows. Within a week or two, I guess?
 
From Wikipedia:
> John Jay became sick after writing five. Madison wrote 29. Hamilton wrote the other 51.
Looks like Hamilton has been plagiarized.
 
@Randal'Thor I'm just asking because we could use some folks with delete hammers
 
3:09 PM
Already?
 
@NapoleonWilson they're always useful
 
@HDE226868 Remember, you don't have to know a work beforehand to be able to answer questions about it ;-)
(he said, as he emerged from researching Eugene Onegin)
 
@Randal'Thor I just finished an answer.
 
@Randal'Thor you sly dog :P
 
It only took an hour or so.
 
3:23 PM
Seriously though, Eugene Onegin is among the best works of Russian literature. Certainly, it may have greater impact on those of delicate age, and it may lose something due to translation, but I recommend it nonetheless.
 
The Librarian is slow, so I'll drop a link here:
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Q: How do we feel about genre-based tags?

Rand al'ThorWe've already had several discussions about the issue of country/language-based tags, culminating in Do we need such broad tags on questions about specific works?, a rather broad question which attracted one answer (score of +1) saying that broad tags in general (it mentions book, question, ameri...

cc @DVK @Gilles since you've been the loudest proponents of language-based tags so far
 
A J
I posted a movie rebus there.
 
@AJ Are you sure you're in the right room?
 
A J
@Randal'Thor Oh I forgot. I'm right now in three rooms.
Anyway, I wasn't here to notify you about the puzzle, but about the answer I got for my literature question.
 
3:56 PM
1
Q: Why is the Agatha Christie play called "The Mousetrap"?

Rand al'ThorThe Agatha Christie play The Mousetrap has not only the longest initial run of any play in history (it's been running continuously for nearly 65 years, mostly in the very same building in London), but also an ending which is traditionally kept secret, the audience asked after every performance no...

 
4:35 PM
1
Q: Why is the tense wrong in the beginning of The Stranger?

GGMGThe first lines of Albert Camus' The Stranger go something like this: Mother died today. Or, maybe, yesterday It's told in the present tense, as in, when Meursault is recounting the event it had happened that very same day. This tense continues for the next two paragraphs, emphasis mine: ...

 
4:51 PM
2
Q: How do we feel about genre-based tags?

Rand al'ThorWe've already had several discussions about the issue of country/language-based tags, culminating in Do we need such broad tags on questions about specific works?, a rather broad question which attracted one answer (score of +1) saying that broad tags in general (it mentions book, question, ameri...

 
5:03 PM
@Randal'Thor I got a - 3. *shrug* Did Cascabel go ahead and delete his account?
Yep, looks like he did.
 
A J
5:23 PM
4
A: What circumstances is the poet referring to in this poem?

Karan DesaiPlease See: Since there is no source available which states on which year exactly this poem was written, it becomes difficult to predict what exact situation poet might be referring to. But considering the life span of poet and the meaning of the poem itself, I have written my own assumptions. If...

Finally an answer to my Literature question.
 
Congratulations :P
 
6:00 PM
@Mithrandir I got -2.
 
@Benjamin just BTW, I like to use for when I mention an author or a book that I know has a tag in my posts, so please don't edit those out, and changing J K Rowling to J. K. Rowling is.. kind of useless :p
 
@Mithrandir Ok, I won't edit the tag-formatting, but JK or J K is different than J.K. or J. K.
 
7:01 PM
Ahhh, I've finally come up with (what I think is) a sensible plan for the and tags. Just trying to work out how to propose it on meta ... post a question and self-answer it? Post a proposal question?
 
7:15 PM
@Randal'Thor self answer, less confusing that way. Or simply add answers to the existing questions...
 
7:35 PM
0
Q: Why is Pechorin a hero of our time?

GallifreyanIn Mikhail Lermontov's A Hero of Our Time (Герой нашего времени), the main hero is Grigory Pechorin, a cynical noble army man, an example of superfluous Byronic hero. The title of the novel has to refer to Pechorin himself - but why? What traits make Pechorin a "hero"? Or is it a negative descr...

 
@Mithrandir One of the problems with fragmenting the discussion into lots of different related meta posts is that it's hard later on to point to a definite consensus.
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Especially if the top answer on one meta post says one thing and the top answer on another says something completely different.
Wow, I'm really close to a Reversal badge on two different metas for posts about self-answered questions.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:01 PM
@Randal'Thor Natural when the people askinging about that stuff usually seem on a really wrong track and everyone reasonable can see that.
 
9:16 PM
I have a cold and a bad headache, so I'm off to bed. Adios fellas, see you tomorrow!
 
10:09 PM
@NapoleonWilson "askinging" - is that when someone goes on a question-asking binge? ;-)
Night @Mithrandir - feel better soon!
 
@Randal'Thor Yes.
Now that the word experts are here, is "aetheric" an actual word?
 
I'd never heard it before, but it seems legit.
 
Is there a more "English" equivalent, like "etheric" or "ethaeric"?
Hmm, maybe I'm looking for "ethereal", but it doesn't feel that way.
 
@NapoleonWilson "Etheric" would be the American spelling of "aetheric", I think.
@NapoleonWilson "Ethereal" originally meant the same as "etheric", but it's come to have a more everyday meaning and isn't always associated with the mystic concept of aether.
 
10:24 PM
@Randal'Thor Oh, then I'd prefer "aetheric". ;-)
 
@NapoleonWilson Good on you! That's what I like to see in a European :-)
 
I prefer most Britishisms, especially the more elaborate vowel constructions.
The only American thing I prefer is "ize" over "ise", since it feels smoother.
But thanks for your input. I'll go with "aetheric" since the concept of an aether (be that mystical or physical) is pretty much what I'm trying to evoke.
 
10:39 PM
What kind of aether are you trying to evoke? Luminiferous, deific?
 
Somewhat of a combination of the two. But either one is fine.
Let's say the practical meaning of the former with a hint of the sublime feelings associated with the latter.
 
Sails Full of Stars uses "rheus."
From Greek rheo, flow.
(See also "panta rhei")
 
The meaning of "aether" as a medium for storing/transporting something that on first thought seems to require a medium but actually doesn't is very appropriate for my needs. But if people associate it with a more mystical concept than that, that's not particularly undesirable either.
 
Quintessence, empyrean, Akasha, pleroma, hyperuranion...
There are some similar concepts in Kabbalah, but I don't think I'm able to say which, if any, would be appropriate to use.
Personally for most uses I'm usually a fan of using common words; I'd rather make up a phrase than use an existing esoteric one.
Aether is air, light, purity, clarity, conductive, so it's ironic that the modern scientific equivalent of aether is dark matter. "Dark" in this case actually bends around toward the meaning of "aether" though: they're both indicative of an unseen ubiquity.
 
10:58 PM
Well, I felt it fitted nicely and isn't too esoteric for anyone who has ever heard of either issues related with the development or special relativity or even just the common phrase of sending something "over the aether". While the primary purpose of an answer is still to convey information in a clear way, nothing speaks against employing a language fitting to the topic discussed. At the end of the day, an SE answer is still a product of creative writing.
 
I'd toy with mashing those ideas together into a phrase like "invisible sea," "dark air," etc.
(For the first few years of worldbuilding, I'd enthusiastically use obscure and unusual words which meant exactly what I needed. Then I figured out that folks remembered a name or concept more easily if they didn't have to also learn a new word to go with it.)
 
Sure, I won't fall all over myself. It's really just an adjective within a larger explanation.
@BESW But that's appreciated. I know other users with a background in arts and the humanities whose questions and answers I sometimes really have difficulties making 100% sense of (but when told so might react less pleasantly).
 
[grin] My game maps are kind of a timeline of my slow realisation that I was losing my players.
 
11:19 PM
The Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppet Theatre does Romeo & Juliet.
 

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