The Reading Room

Zizouz212

12:00 AM

That's possible?

Rand al'Thor

Sure. But the threshold for Trusted User in private beta is only 2k and not 4k.

Zizouz212

Still... I've never seen that before

doppelgreener

@Mithrandir cute. goodnight!

Rand al'Thor

Also, woo, site analytics.

Apparently activity here increases on Sundays.

Zizouz212

@Randal'Thor You've got mod tools, right?

Do you know if we have any tag synonyms?

Rand al'Thor

12:03 AM

@Zizouz212 Yes, that comes before Trusted User. (Assuming you mean 10k tools and not diamond mod tools.)

Zizouz212

I doubt we do, but I figured I'd ask

Yep. 10k toos

Rand al'Thor

@Zizouz212 Yes:

12

A: Should the [1984] tag be changed?

Sounds like a good time for a tag synonym. I'd recommend making the nineteen-eighty-four tag and then getting the CMs to make 1984 a synonym. That way, if anyone tries to use just "1984", it will still get the appropriate tag but if the title is officially spelled out, that should be the primary...

Zizouz212

Oh thanks :)

Actually, that meta post is even better :)

Rand al'Thor

Interestingly, we've had more questions posted than answers nearly every day so far.

Librarian

3

Q: Translations, and books with different titles with respect to tags

I recently answered my first question on Literature, Yaay! Why does Meursault kill "the Arab" in The Stranger? The question is about a book by Albert Camus. The book was originally written in French, with the title "L'Etranger." Now the French title translates to different things. Many books of...

Zizouz212

12:06 AM

@Randal'Thor Working on writing answers to questions I can answer :)

I kind of want to get my rep up, especially since I've come like what, 15 days after the start?

Rand al'Thor

@Zizouz212 Day one was the 18th, so not quite.

Riker

@Randal'Thor ah thanks

uh

I just noticed

>_>

haven't checked my rep for a day or so

Zizouz212

Ah. 12 days.

Still a lot for private beta time

Rand al'Thor

I guess that part of the analytics page is heavily cached ...

Zizouz212

lol

You need to see the analytics on OS - they can be hilarious to see

Riker

12:11 AM

lol

screenshot?

Zizouz212

Getting one...

How do I screenshot...

Rand al'Thor

@Zizouz212 Prt Scr?

Zizouz212

Yeah, but how do I get that into an image?

Riker

doesn't it copy it to your clipboard

Rand al'Thor

@Zizouz212 Ctrl + V?

Zizouz212

12:14 AM

Yeah, but where do I paste that?

Rand al'Thor

Into a blank image file?

Riker

try pasting into chat

it's not like it can only be pasted once

Rand al'Thor

(I can't believe somebody on SE knows less about computery stuff than I do! :-) )

Zizouz212

@Randal'Thor I wish I was on OSX. Then, it would be Shift+Cmd+4, and a magical adjustable box would appear!

God, and somehow I can program in three languages -_-

Riker

lel os x 4 life

Zizouz212

12:16 AM

Oh, but the new macs are horrible and ugly

Riker

get an older one >_>

Rand al'Thor

@Zizouz212 OK then, you don't know less about computery stuff than I do.

Riker

lel

Zizouz212

I was thinking about getting osx before uni, but now I'm having second thoughts

Yeah, I'll get an older one

Riker

do it

yeah

Rand al'Thor

12:17 AM

I don't even know what OSX means.

Riker

my 2015 macbook pro is amazing

Zizouz212

o_O

Riker

@Randal'Thor ..... it's the brand name of an apple computer

@Zizouz212 from a windows-using friend:

EasterlyIrk: how use print screen on windows
EasterlyIrk: does it copy a link to your clipboard
Sock: carefully
Sock: copies image data

Zizouz212

Yes, but how do I paste it? I would paste it to my desktop, but I can't.

Riker

make a new image file

open a new file in paint or something

Zizouz212

12:20 AM

Got it!

Riker

congrats!

Zizouz212

Riker

you've mastered the art of printscreen

Rand al'Thor

5 mins ago, by Rand al'Thor

Into a blank image file?

@Zizouz212 Ooh, spiky.

Zizouz212

And @Randal'Thor doesn't know a lot?

Riker

12:21 AM

he knows nothing

Zizouz212

@Randal'Thor 120 page views, but 0 visits somehow...

Rand al'Thor

Also, you have a lot of unread emails :-P

Zizouz212

Traffic sources are even worse.

Rand al'Thor

@Riker I'm not Jon Snow.

Riker

yes you are

Zizouz212

12:21 AM

@Randal'Thor Oh of course. That's what you look at :P

Riker

I'M PLUGGING IN MY PHONE BUT THE BATTERY ON THE SCREEN ISN'T CHARGING

Zizouz212

lol

Rand al'Thor

@Zizouz212 I do tend to fixate on tiny irrelevant details when people post pictures.

Zizouz212

Surprised that you didn't inquire to my other tabs

Riker

@Randal'Thor you can remove the "when people post pictures" though >_>

Zizouz212

12:23 AM

Social Justice, and CarletonU

And then an Indian song playing

Riker

@Zizouz212 Rand is known for being a pedant

Zizouz212

You're more interested in my email, then the strange youtube words...

Rand al'Thor

@Zizouz212 Well, I didn't want to be nosy about stuff like your university.

Also, I'm a mathematician, so numbers are what catch my attention :-P

Zizouz212

lol okay :)

Rand al'Thor

686 = 2 * 7^3

Riker

12:25 AM

@Randal'Thor is doing math your job IRL?

Rand al'Thor

Anyway, getting back to the point ... SFF has a few interesting spikes too: meta.scifi.stackexchange.com/search?q=spike+is%3Aq

@Riker Pretty much, yes.

Wait, no. It's actually doing maths.

Riker

are you a professor

BESW

1729

Zizouz212

Well, I'm hungry. I'm heading out

Riker

@Randal'Thor oh god I found something worse than a pedant: a british-english enforcing pedant

@Zizouz212 see ya!

do you have in-n-out in canada?

Zizouz212

12:26 AM

in-n-out?

Riker

@BESW ?

BESW

@Riker I'm (maths) nerd-sniping.

Riker

@Zizouz212 really epic burger place

rip rand he hasn't been heard from he must have fallen into your trap

Zizouz212

Never heard of it. There are a few local burger places that are really good though

Riker

ah ok

Rand al'Thor

12:27 AM

@BESW :-D

Riker

yeah I didn't think so it's mostly a CA thing

Rand al'Thor

1+2+3+4+5+6+... = -1/12

Riker

no f*** ramanujuan

Rand al'Thor

That equation is actually true ... from a certain point of view.

Riker

yes

I didn't say it wasn't

so it looks like our mods are dforck, emrak, and rand?

Loong

12:31 AM

8 hours ago, by Loong

@Emrakul It's not an election.

BESW

Citizen voting is just one input that goes into the decision.

Rand al'Thor

@Riker That would be a dream team, IMHO. (I hope @DForck and @Emrak would agree!)

But it's not up to us - any of us.

Hamlet

12:47 AM

@Nathaniel I just want to thank you again for the nomination. I don't think I'll be chosen, but thank you for the thought and the kind words. I've enjoyed your questions and answers on this site immensely.

Zizouz212

@Hamlet You don't mind if I update my answer tomorrow, do you? I just looked at the time, and I have my last exam this semester tomorrow.

Riker

rip zizouz

Zizouz212

I have a whole bunch of my stuff here beside me, I just keep getting distracted

I'm comfortable with the material, I just have no clue what my teacher will throw on the exam

Riker

ah lol

Zizouz212

She gave us a list of 30 completely different topics to study

Ranging from paradigms, to population theories, to nutritional deficiencies, to public/private debates (e.g. privatization of water)... It feels exhausting

But welcome to Canadian and World Issues :)

Riker

1:01 AM

lol

Zizouz212

It basically ended up with (no offence) the US election coming up at least once a week, especially in December and January

Riker

kek

no offense taken

it's dumb af

Zizouz212

Ugh it's such a pain to get out of here. I keep exploring the site

Loong

Hamlet

:35111643 like I said, take your time! I don't mind if you take 6-8 weeks.

Zizouz212

1:10 AM

Okay. What do I have to do this week...

I need to like, organize my time :P

Nathaniel

@Hamlet You never know! I appreciate your vision for the site and hope that's where it goes, one way or another.

Zizouz212

Exam tomorrow, Exam review on some day (I think Thursday or Friday?), then I need to fix my answer, finish my Application Profile for uToronto, get a passport so I can get my drivers licence, oh and fix my phone that has been broken for a month

BESW

I'm combining the bullet journal and personal kanban techniques to organise my workload.

Hamlet

@Nathaniel thanks!

Zizouz212

Somehow that will all get done

Benjamin

1:35 AM

@Zizouz212 I don't think you are supposed to share these.

Zizouz212

@Benjamin Why not?

HDE 226868

@Benjamin That's not mod-only data.

Mod analytics look different.

More detailed, for instance.

Benjamin

@HDE226868 Oh, I thought that was mod analytics. Carry on.

Zizouz212

Hehe :)

BESW

mmm. I can access that page for sites where I've got a good stack of rep, and I'm not a mod anywhere.

Zizouz212

1:37 AM

It's part of the 5k site analytics privilege

steelersquirrel

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Thank you for your kind comment. Much appreciated :)

@HDE226868 @DVK-on-Ahch-To Would either of you have any interest in being a mod on this site?

Riker

HDE already said no

steelersquirrel

Ahhhh...gotcha.

Benjamin

Well, I think we need someone uncontroversial to get a more positive vote. @Riker have you nominated yourself?

Riker

yes

HDE 226868

1:47 AM

@steelersquirrel Not particularly. Only if there were no other good options, and I think we've got some good options.

Zizouz212

Uncontroversial? But controversy is where the fun is! :P

steelersquirrel

@HDE226868 Okay :)

Benjamin

Yes, but I wish we had at least one person who could be minimally downvoted.

Zizouz212

Anyone who isn't nominated yet?

Riker

@Benjamin I have been nominated

not by myself though

Benjamin

1:48 AM

@Riker Did you accept?

Riker

yes

steelersquirrel

Emrakul and DForck42 seem to have a positive reaction so far.

HDE 226868

@Benjamin Ever seen The West Wing? You're describing "Bingo Bob" Russell, the replacement Vice President who got the job because he had no stances on anything, and therefore was disliked by nobody.

I have no desire to be Bingo Bob.

Benjamin

@Riker Okay, I have upvoted you, I just wish someone could get near universal support.

Riker

dforck

:P

Zizouz212

1:49 AM

I haven't voted yet... I just haven't seen anyone in action yet

I probably missed it all :P

Benjamin

@HDE226868 No, I want someone who has stances but will not force them and will support whatever the community agrees on.

Riker

@Zizouz212 #VoteRiker2017

Zizouz212

But it's not 'technically' a vote...

BESW

[amused]

Zizouz212

[how]

Riker

1:53 AM

lol

BESW

Good moderators tend to be the folks with the emotional stamina to take on thankless gruntwork punctuated by sudden uproar, without burning out or becoming misanthropic.

[amused]

@BESW ...

@BESW so you

Popularity can help, but you can't please all of the people all of the time and folks who try won't make good mods.

Zizouz212

1:54 AM

I feel like even though I'm a mod, I haven't been through the community led "moderator initiation"

steelersquirrel

You can't have a mod who let's the moderator powers go to their head and misuse them and come in and start barking orders at people rather than trying to solve the problem. Just my opinion.

BESW

When I'm considering candidates for moderator, I look for a willingness to listen and learn and admit they're wrong, a solid grasp of the Stack Exchange network's policies (and more importantly the philosophies behind those policies), a willingness to intervene when it's needed but the ability to recognise that most of the time it'll sort itself out without a hammer--and being content to let it do that.

Zizouz212

You sound like you're a mod already :)

BESW

I frequently get mistaken for a moderator, yes.

But I know myself well enough to recognise that I don't have the stamina for the job.

Zizouz212

It's cool. You sound like the non-moderator authority of the site already :P

BESW

1:58 AM

I'm much more valuable to a site in the role of active citizen, if it's a site where I can do that.

Zizouz212

You know what, that's a good thing. You and @steelersquirrel from what I've seen look like excellent people, who can lead the community from any role or position :)

BESW

I'm not yet sure this is a Stack where I will be consistently active; I'm seeing potential for a repeat of the worldbuilding shift.

Riker

?

Zizouz212

Worldbuilding shift?

BESW

worldbuilding.se is no longer a place where I feel my experience is useful, because it's focused on speculation about extrapolation of the physical sciences without much interest in what I consider worldbuilding: the art of designing a setting to support the themes and requirements of the narrative or game or whatever you're going to use the world for.

Zizouz212

2:03 AM

So where do you see Literature going (I can't quite see the shift in a Literature context)?

BESW

Lit.se is in the throes of figuring out what it's about and what it values.

It would be very easy to slide into a narrow populist concept of literature, and to equate the consumption of media with critical thinking about media.

steelersquirrel

@Zizouz212 Thank you so much! That's much appreciated :)

Zizouz212

@steelersquirrel Really! I truly mean it!

steelersquirrel

:)

Zizouz212

@BESW I find that interesting. So you're suggesting that the site might narrow itself down into a particular subset of literature thinking sort of thing?

BESW

2:07 AM

I'm especially concerned because scifi.se is immersed in subcultures of critique where authorial intent is elevated to the level of a fetish (ie Word of God), and it's very easy to forget that there are other ways of reading a text.

2

Zizouz212

I had never thought of that actually. But it's completely valid.

BESW

As a very blunt example, Rand's original answer to this question simply invoked an essay by Poe about his intent when writing the poem, and considered that conclusive.

Zizouz212

It's also weird because are we to deem an expert opinion as an answer, or the author opinion. I wonder how that might come across for questions that ask for interpretation - is one sole thought correct? Darn, this is boggling my mind :P

BESW

Many people think Poe's essay on the subject is a hot mess of half-truths written to defend himself against accusations of plagiarism.

I gave Rand advice, and it's a better answer now because it compares the author's statements to evidence within the work itself.

Riker

interesting: I've approved/rejected more edits than community

BESW

2:12 AM

@Zizouz212 This is the kind of dualistic thinking that lit.se can't sustain, and makes it difficult for a really robust literary discussion to unfold within the Stack mechanical structure.

Zizouz212

Yeah...

BESW

It's not about right or wrong, it's about supportable and unsupportable.

Zizouz212

Sorry, I'm slightly speechless here. (I'm also kind of moving back and forth to browsing around, and studying for my exam though...)

BESW

GS/BS is vital to the health of a lit.se that actually tackles these questions in a way which attracts professionals and learned experts.

But for many people (yourself included, I suspect), "Poe says Lenore is dead" doesn't look like a subjective answer at all.

steelersquirrel

@BESW Good point. My sister who is extremely well versed in all of Poe's work agrees with that as well

Zizouz212

2:14 AM

@BESW I wouldn't be surprised. The key is how do we find an adequate community to start of well with the thinking that all viewpoints are equally valid when supported.

BESW

So the community will push back against the need to vigorously support their answers, because our community is mostly composed of people who are used to a different form of analysis.

Zizouz212

Actually, that reminds me of one of the novels I read for my AP English course. Many of my friends' answers to questions relied heavily on the author's essay, A Clockwork Condition

BESW

In short: movies.se and sff.se are bringing in lots of interested people with experience consuming the text, but with little understanding of how broad the scope of analysis really is.

Zizouz212

@BESW Very true. It's all cite this and it's right. The mindset harms other viewpoints that could just as well be supported.

BESW

I'm not confident lit.se will evolve out from under the inertia of the analytical pigeonholes we're bringing with us from other communities.

We also see this in discussions of scope, where for example, there's a vocal contingent which believes it's beneficial to analyse an opera's lyrics divorced from its music.

I've worked professionally with a literary magazine that explicitly created a space for Pacific authors whose work was not recognised as literary by either Western or Eastern journals. I'm very familiar with arguments about what is and isn't literature, and they're all artificial constructs. Usually, they're used to draw a line in the social sand between what's valued and what's valueless.

By creating literature.se, we've inserted ourselves into that space and given ourselves the task of making that value judgement.

But we don't really seem interested in facing that head-on.

enderland

2:20 AM

I think the problem is many SE sites of "experts" are more "armchair experts" than anything else

4

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@b_jonas Worst? Grey Goo will descend from the heavens and nan-consume everything.

BESW

@enderland This is why I'm most active on RPG.SE, where armchair experts can tackle rules questions but the lion's share of the site's value comes from drawing on real-life experiences.

steelersquirrel

@enderland Sooooo true! Well said!

BESW

Don't get me wrong though, I think the vast majority of Euro-American lit crit is conducted by armchair experts who don't consider how their sciences might result in action.

What I know about literary analysis, I know largely in self-defense.

Zizouz212

Sorry, I kind of zoned out into my notes there

BESW

2:23 AM

No worries, I'mo get some coffee.

Napoleon Wilson

Neither should we have a philosophical debate about what is and isn't literature stop the site from finding a scope that it can conveniently be about. A proper site scope isn't an automatical statement on what is and isn't to be seen as literature in the eternity of the world's conciousness, neither is it a serious attempt to settle a philosophical debate at a scale that a litte SE site's meta is unfit for.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Randal'Thor joke as in a question that's a joke? That seems like a bad idea. However, humor tag as in questions about humorous content in literature, may be worthwhile.

BESW

@NapoleonWilson These are not things I'm calling for.

Napoleon Wilson

Good.

BESW

You've got a tendency to put words into my mouth, and it's not helpful.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

2:26 AM

@Gilles Hey, I tried my best. My Meta foo is generally weak.

Napoleon Wilson

Agreed.

enderland

The bigger risk would be alienating actual experts, by watering down or otherwise trivializing their knowledge and selling a cheap substitute

steelersquirrel

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Hey, I proposed that fortune cookie sayings be on topic...so, there's that ;)

BESW

A lot of the issues I'm bringing up about scope are hotly debated, and it's awareness of them, not taking sides, that will attract people more familiar with the issues than we are.

But if we want to act like there's some neutral concept of literature divorced from real-life erasure and marginalisation, that's a one-way ticket to nowheresville, population: Texan textbooks.

SevenSidedDie

@enderland That's what I'd be looking for after private Beta. For example, do any of the vast number of academic analytical frameworks ever get used/invoked, and if so, how does the community position itself relative to that academic approach.

(FYI, I'm not in the private Beta. It's odd being able to only see the site through the lens of chat. Interesting, too, though.)

enderland

2:30 AM

@SevenSidedDie it's trivial to get an account even on a private beta, FYI

Zizouz212

@SevenSidedDie You've been spying on us?

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Randal'Thor Computers lesson 101. Part one. It's not called "computery stuff". It's called "IT" </nerd> </pedant>

SevenSidedDie

@enderland It's locked to only Area 51 committers.

enderland

@SevenSidedDie false

Zizouz212

@BESW I completely agree. Not only that, but this understanding is what will help everyone grow and develop a common community-developed approach that's accepting of all.

SevenSidedDie

2:32 AM

> To log in, you must have commited to the Area 51 site proposal and received the invitation email. Click the invitation link in the email to log in!

Zizouz212

@SevenSidedDie Go to the area 51 page and enter the site through the link there

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@steelersquirrel Nope, I'd not make a good mod (and even if I did, I can't honestly promise to commit enough time to be an effective one. Moddery, from talking to people who did moderation job on SE, is a LOT LOT LOT of hard effort)

BESW

I don't expect people here to know about Harold Bloom's influence theory (I'd be happier if Bloom didn't), or Houston Wood's ideas about the need to retheorise Oceanic texts. But we need to be open to the idea that they exist and they matter: that the ways we think about literature are not the only ways nor the right ways, and the more ways we can represent the better the site will be.

2

SevenSidedDie

@Zizouz212 Oh really?! What an odd message then.

Zizouz212

@SevenSidedDie It does that if you're trying to access the site directly without having an account. Not sure why though

SevenSidedDie

2:33 AM

@Zizouz212 Because puzzles are more fun in UX design…

Zizouz212

lol :P

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@enderland I tried bringing that concern up on Meta and it seems people strongly disagree

steelersquirrel

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Okay. No worries :)

SevenSidedDie

Welp, that's for another day perhaps. Tonight is game night, and I'm running it, and my partner just got home so's I can head out. Later!

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@steelersquirrel I'm not sure fortune cookies have enough literary content (narrative, at least) to be worth including in scope, sorry.

BESW

2:34 AM

@SevenSidedDie Ooh, enjoy.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW Session 4 of our JRPG Dungeon World campaign. Tonight we open with the cliffhanger of why are they being attacked by a swarm of voles with moth wings.

steelersquirrel

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Hehehe! Bummer. My hopes and dreams are shattered! :P

BESW

@SevenSidedDie ...because they're in the Avatar setting?

@Zizouz212 A big challenge facing us is that definitions of literature have social weight. Knowing and understanding literature is a hallmark of a valuable person, while a literary canon is a hallmark of a valuable culture. This means discussions about literature quickly turn into discussions of personal identity and worth.

It's hard to discuss literature dispassionately when it feels like we're discussing our own selves.

Zizouz212

@BESW So in other words, particular forms of literature are held to higher value based on culture and the individual?

BESW

yup.

steelersquirrel

2:43 AM

Getting deep in here... ;)

Zizouz212

That's so true.

@steelersquirrel lol, I need to have these sorts of conversations before I start my exam tomorrow to get my brain thinking :P

BESW

And being able to quote them, or explain them, or recognise references to them, is a sign of being a valuable person.

steelersquirrel

@Zizouz212 Hehehe! Fair enough :)

BESW

But being able to quote or explain other forms of literature is devalued.

Zizouz212

So in Western Culture, Shakespearian poems are held to higher value, and a person who recognizes them is viewed smart, whereas a person recognizing say, a traditional Indian poem would not be viewed so highly.

BESW

2:45 AM

Yes. Or, say, in this community I suspect my ability to quote the British murder mystery author Margery Allingham is less valued than my ability to quote Tolkien.

Both of which pale in broader society beside my having memorised TS Eliot and Shakespeare.

Zizouz212

Surely though, society has a grand role. Shakespeare is taught in every year in my school - I would never touch a book with say, a Russian or Indian author.

BESW

Right, and that's a major part of it.

Zizouz212

Actually, the only book I've read from an international author during my last four years was The God of Small Things

And the only reason why I was able to read that book, was because it's appeared on the AP exam

BESW

The literary canon (those works which are valuable to study) is what's taught by the good schools.

And what do good schools teach? The literary canon.

Allingham has a great satire of this, where a low-class man decides he should be able to drop quotes like his upper-class friends, so he buys a book of famous quotes.

He quickly decides these quotes are rubbish because they have nothing to do with his life experience, and instead he starts making up his own aphorisms.

Zizouz212

So it's a viewpoint that Literature carries equal value, determined by the individual and his/her experiences?

BESW

2:50 AM

I think Allingham's probably a bit more complex than that, but yes--I think she's digging toward that kind of idea.

Zizouz212

It probably is... My Grade 12 brain is probably very inexperienced and shallow :P

BESW

From Houston Wood's "Preparing to Retheorize the Texts of Oceania"...

> Although they seldom feel powerful themselves, Euro-American critics today still typically function as defenders of the rights of elites. In their writing and teaching, critics speak on behalf of and help to educate the capital possessing and capital managing classes. Williams points out that whereas in earlier eras scholars and critics offered learned commentary on and elaborations of knowledge, later critics of the reconceived literary focused on "the conscious exercise of 'taste,' 'sensibility,' and 'discrimination'" (1977, 49).

(This is the sort of thing on which I rest my career as a print-media layout designer who's open to intersectionality and interested in designing for cultural contact zones.)

Zizouz212

I don't know what to say...

BESW

Like I said, I know about literary theory largely in self-defense.

Zizouz212

No, you're very smart. I think it's just a lot for me to take in :)

BESW

2:55 AM

These are deep, complex issues and just being aware of them is a massive step in the right direction.

They're the forces that rumble underneath a site with the gall to call itself "literature" and if we ignore them, chances are we'll be swallowed in self-referential obscurity.

On a personal note, if you want to read more international literature, especially outside the Euro-American sphere, I could make some recommendations and point you at some well-curated lists.

Hamlet

@BESW yes please

Everything you've written so far has been fantastic

Would you mind shooting me an email at taxicrash@zoho.com ? I would love to ask you some questions privately

Zizouz212

@BESW That would be great! It may be a while before I can get to them though, because of school. I've had a super rough semester because of a whole bunch of complex things, so I need to work very hard next semester and somehow juggle 5 courses.

BESW

3:12 AM

@Hamlet Sent.

@Zizouz212 When you've got some time, we can talk about the sorts of stuff you like and are interested in, and I'll see what I can point you at.

On general grounds for anybody interested, medievalPOC does semi-annual Fiction Week events, and is just starting one up again now.

She focuses more on the characters than the authors when compiling the lists, and it's mostly scifi/fantasy, but there's a lot of good authors from a wide variety of backgrounds, cultures, countries, and occasionally epistemologies.

Hamlet

@BESW have you read Toni Morrison's Playing in the Dark? It's a fantastic book: it changed the way I thought about race, gender, and literature.

Zizouz212

@BESW Haha, that could take forever. I don't even know what I'm interested in myself

For what it's worth, I can tell you where I've applied for university

BESW

@Hamlet I have not, though I've probably been exposed to thinking inspired by it.

I'm a graphic designer who works around a lot of literature/composition folks in the Pasifika context. Most of my in-depth reading about literary theory has been about Oceanic challenges to mainland thought.

So I get the mainland thought second-hand.

(I read a Harold Bloom book... kind of on a dare. The Authorship Question is perversely hilarious.)

(Speaking of the social value of literature, the Authorship Question usually boils down to an argument over whether a middle-class man could've written the works attributed to Shakespeare, or if they had to be written by nobility.)

Zizouz212

3:27 AM

I'm going to step out... It's been great talking to you, I just have an exam tomorrow, and it's 10:30 pm here, and I'm still studying :/

BESW

Don't let me keep you from your edyoomukayshun.

Zizouz212

Lol thanks. Exams on Canadian and World Issues, which oddly has connections to this

BESW

@Hamlet Did you get the email? Not expecting a reply lickety-split, just want to make sure I sent it properly.

Hamlet

@BESW yes I did, thank you! I'll get to tomorrow.

BESW

Yey!

Not sure how much help I can be, but maybe I can point you toward articles or something.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

3:35 AM

@BESW What exactly were the arguments used to support "this is not literature" argument? (as in, something as silly as "it wasn't printed"?) If something is creative and has a narrative, I find it very hard to entertain "it's not literature" side of arguing.

BESW

@DVK-on-Ahch-To It's about value. An editorial board won't print things they think aren't valuable to share, and if something comes from outside their concept of literary structures or themes, they're likely to discard it.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@BESW Sorry, but you seem to be misinterpreting the position on opera somewhat. The argument isn't that opera must be analyzed separate from the score. It's that if we include the score, the entire opera becomes too easy to argue to be offtopic on a literature site because of Music.SE - so, the only two practical, viable options are "no opera at all" or "lyrics only". Between the two, people who'd like to include opera, have to pick the latter.

BESW

@DVK-on-Ahch-To That's a false dichotomy based on a false pretext, though.

Hamlet

@DVK-on-Ahch-To what would your position be on questions about the rythm/scansion of poetry?

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@BESW It's based on reality of what will be acceptable to enough people to survive Meta votes.

@Hamlet I wouldn't be strongly opposed to it, but I can't honestly say I'm able to form an argument on Meta that would convince others not to oppose it.

BESW

3:40 AM

Overlap with another Stack is not a reason to restrict scope.

user61230

I still think that topicality shouldn't be decided by the nature of the content, but the kinds of questions you're asking about it. Understanding the content itself, or its cultural significance, or how it builds its central elements, is really one of the central ideas of the reason to study literature at all.

2

user61230

Questions like "How do I write opera music?" are off topic because they're not about that. Questions like, "How does the operatic score create this emotional effect in a song?" would be on topic.

Hamlet

@Emrakul can't put it better than that.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@BESW As in "will get us enogh views/ad dollars" value? That seems different from "this isn't literature". Just commercialism.

BESW

@DVK-on-Ahch-To It's not common to flat-out say "this isn't literature," but popular concepts about what is and isn't literature are still fueling the selections.

And even when works get accepted, they're often edited to conform to Euro-American standards.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

3:42 AM

@Emrakul I believe the biggest argument there is that it has to be textual-based. E.g. interaction between score and lyrics is tied to text, but pure score as instrumental piece, is not.

BESW

Often in ways that they wouldn't be edited if the author and subject material were Euro-Emerican.

user61230

@DVK-on-Ahch-To How are you defining "text"? (I'm genuinely not trying to equivocate - "text" has a lot of meanings depending on who you ask. Video game critics call diegetic elements the "text" of the video game, but I'm not sure that's what you mean.)

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@BESW I'm not familiar enough with publishing to be sure, but isn't that simply "what will the readers like"? Unless it was an academic publication, where criteria should be different.

BESW

@DVK-on-Ahch-To This gets deep into positionality and assimilation forces.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

... at which point we arrive at the old gripe of "why are there 100M copies of '50 Shades of Gray' sold, and only 5 copies of a deep philosophical work on nuances of BDSM psychology"

"because there's 100M people willing to read the former and 5 people willing to pay for the latter. Humans suck"

BESW

3:46 AM

"Market forces" is not a get-out-of-politics-free card.

Hamlet

@DVK-on-Ahch-To how about the gripe that half of all human languages are going to disappear by 2100.

BESW

A lot of what's attributed to the invisible hand of the market is about as "natural" as Moore's law.

Hamlet

@Emrakul very tempted to ask a question about video games.

user61230

@Hamlet I did - it was astonishingly poorly received.

user61230

(And continues to be, oddly. It keeps accruing downvotes.)

BESW

3:48 AM

@Hamlet I'm trying to come up with a good question about Never Alone, which is an intersemiotic video game derived from Alaska Native oral traditions.

....Or possibly Dear Esther.

user61230

Dear Esther might be better, because it's a text that you walk through.

Hamlet

I think it would probably be helpful if you could ask questions about very specific aspects of these video games, with specific quotes/screenshots.

BESW

@Emrakul It's kind of an extremely illustrated choose-your-own-adventure audiobook.

user61230

@BESW That's a great description.

Hamlet

this question about video game theory was positively received. I just hope someone doesn't get the wrong idea and close it: when I wrote the question I had based it on several papers that I had read. I've been meaning to write an answer, but I never got around to it.

Thinking about it, I guess this question is similar to the opera controversy on meta.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

3:51 AM

@Hamlet I find the "all" part exceedingly unlikely given actual reality. At least at that short timeframe.

@BESW It's not so much invisible hand as the judgement of the gatekeepers (presumably, editors). Whether they have a clue or not is a different story; following Sturgeon's and Peter principle, I would venture a guess most operate on "Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM" principle at best. It's less politics and more lack of actual clue.

BESW

I'm not sure what you're arguing here.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@BESW That's because I don't have an argument per se. I'm just trying to understand your assertion that Pacific literature would not be considered "literature", especially in context of this SE site.

Hamlet

@DVK-on-Ahch-To it's past my bedtime, so I'm going to log off now, but I'm not sure why you find this unlikely: the research is telling us that one language disappears about every 14 days.

BESW

It's a specific example of a broader observation: that things which don't fit neatly into the received concept of "literature" have to change in order to gain entry. Those which don't change are ignored. Our concept of "literature" is not some absolute truth, nor a neutral declaration, but we have great reluctance to adapt it in the face of new material--instead we demand that the material adapt to fit our Platonic construct.

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