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01:00 - 16:0016:00 - 21:00

4:02 PM
@JNK I stole from you for that question on CRYPT_GEN_RANDOM
@JackDouglas Just did some copy for the 'ETL' tag. Want to take a look?
looks better than a tag with no text :)
@DTest About the right level of depth, do you think?
> ETL stands for 'Extract, Transform and Load' and descibes data load processing, normally in the context of data warehouse systems.
Also, should I include examples of particular tools?
4:11 PM
How about: 'Extract, Transform and Load': Data load processing, normally in the context of data warehouse systems.
@JackDouglas Fine.
Yet another smacks forehead moment. Despite being told to not point their backup software at a clients cluster, they have indeed pointed their backup software at the cluster. So my diff and log backups are being rendered "baseless". JOY!
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells No idea what people want in a wiki tbh. Learning experience here
@JackDouglas But the level of detail in the tag description is about right?
@MarkStoreySmith doh
4:12 PM
testing my internet connection ...
@DTest I'm sure I remember editing a couple of tags on Stackoverflow when they first introduced the tag wiki but I'm buggered if I can remember which ones.
somebody do me a favor and give me a reply?
@jcolebrand Consider yourself replied.
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells possibly - it is only the excerpts I'm bothered about though because they pop up on the faq when you hover over a tag
@jcolebrand no
4:13 PM
merci beaucoup
so whatever's going on is affecting Chrome specifically, but nothing else
@DTest you are quick :-)
@JackDouglas meh
Sup, DBA?
i herd you have FAQ questions
@JackDouglas OK. Sounds like a couple of lines - about the length of what I wrote - is about the right size for the summary?
4:14 PM
so i put an FAQ in your FAQ so you can FAQ while you FAQ~ :P
we discovered SF got their proposed faq slapped down
@JackDouglas More like, send back for edits, but yes.
@JackDouglas 'Extract, Transform and Load' (ETL) describes data load processing, normally in the context of data warehouse systems.
can you take a glance at our new and improved (and BI merged) faq and tell us if you think it is slim enough
4:17 PM
@JackDouglas Want to trim the B.I. stuff down now?
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells all done already :-)
@JackDouglas @jcolebrand Shog as words for y'all in TL. :P
I've got a bit of a broken PC atm
@jcolebrand convenient
@JackDouglas It is? Do you mean:
• Data Warehousing including data-warehouse design and etl processing
• Business Intelligence: Reporting , ROLAP systems and OLAP cubes.
4:20 PM
not so much, no
Because when I refresh the FAQ I see the previous incarnation.
odd try 'really' refresh?
Chrome refuses to work with anything
oh, I update chrome and relaunched it
it seems like all my javascript requests are timing out
I still see
•Data Warehousing including data-warehouse design, etl processing
•Business Intelligence and Reporting: reporting tools and queries, rolap tooling, olap cube design, tuning and other business-intelligence queries including mdx questions.
cacheing oddity I guess
4:22 PM
So I notice that some of these tag summaries have this ':' format...something like "TagName: definition". Is that the format we're going for or do we just want an actual sentence describing it instead?
@AaronBertrand happy to help!
@DTest the latter
absolute minimalism
would absolute minimalism be the former: "Tag: definition"? My question isn't about the length of the summary, but the sentence structure. Something that reads like a sentence with the important stuff near the front.
no need to include the name of the tag in the excerpt - they already know that :-)
4:41 PM
is it beneficial or no-gain from linking to other tags within one tag summary. Example: InnoDB mentions MySQL in the summary, so would we gain anything by linking to the MySQL tag?
@JackDouglas you guys in trouble or something?
The hate our faq :-)
or rather Shog9 does
He wants the tags out
(or just 3 or 4 left) :-)
oh well
too bad @shog9 smells, so his opinion doesn't count
well, he wants less a wall of text and boxes, more a lean list
which, to be honest, and you can ask @ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells, we've been discussing this anyways
it is very wallish
4:49 PM
@jcolebrand nah, he just hates the tags
@JackDouglas specifically because they're boxes
@Shog9 just kidding pal
Hello @Shog9
if we could redo the formatting so it wasn't boxes, I think it would be mildly more acceptable
@JNK ;-)
4:50 PM
@JNK lmao, see what happens?
@jcolebrand I don't think so
i done it on porpoise
@JackDouglas that was actually one of my takeaways from something he said, but he never ack'd it
ok shog sorry to ping you
@JNK You could ask him to hold his nose.
4:51 PM
he's an SO mod
im pretty sure his sense of smell died ages ago
@Shog9 What exactly is your problem with the FAQ?
@JNK No worries. I don't hate your FAQ, I just hate the wall of boxes effect
it is kind of user-hostile
which I think is absolutely appropriate for a site called DBA.se
what are DBAs if not user-hostile?
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells too many boxes. It's very functional, if you're looking for a DBA-scope-cheat-sheet, but it's not great for "I want to spend 30 seconds scanning this and learn what the site's about"
4:54 PM
@JNK I think I should pin this
Remember: this is where folks look when they're deciding what to migrate as well (to bring up another sometimes-sensitive topic)
@Shog9 Less bullet points and more of a short blurb?
it has been sensitive recently
@Shog9 well, as we've seen, some of the other mods who migrate here have a problem deciphering what's on target, and I won't rehash the particulars of the last time that was discussed.
its hard here since there is some overlap
on SU/SF its pretty clear and no Q can go both ways
4:56 PM
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells yeah... Bullets are good if you can sorta keep 'em all in your head at once - 3-5 list items.
@Shog9 pffft, programmers man, 7-9 bullet points
Programmers is insane
(And I don't mean the FAQ)
that sounds like something will would say
lol, I meant more like "programmers are insane" but ok :p
"Programmers is insane, like monkeys with guns in their hands"
or something
4:58 PM
How about something like:
o Database design, including data modelling, physical setup and configuration of database instances, performance tuning and server disk layout.
o Advanced database querying, tuning and server side development.
o Operational database management, including backup/restore, replication, disaster recovery strategies and system monitoring.
o Data warehouse and business intelligence system design, including ETL processing, reporting and ROLAP tooling and OLAP cubes.
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells about 90% too many words I think
And we are keeping the tags until we are actually told point blank to remove them
which will be next week if we don't get it right enough to make Shog9 happy
@JackDouglas I'm fine with the bullet points - in fact IMO you should replace the one describing server configuration.
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells I removed that one?
5:14 PM
If you have a question about...

•Database Administration, including installation scaling replication partitioning referential-integrity•Advanced Querying, including windowing-functions dynamic-sql and query-performance
•Data Modelling and database-design•Advanced Programming in built-in server-side languages, including stored-procedures and triggers.
•Database backup/restore, export/import, and recovery•Data Warehousing including data-warehouse design and etl processing
•Business Intelligence: reporting, rolap systems and olap cubes
Yes, it's missing.
@JackDouglas I have a suspicion that rchern will help us in that respect (not riding herd over him, just a mellowing effect)
@jcolebrand I take her point that the SF css makes the tags look far to prominent for their faq - I'm glad she is not dead against
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells Our job is to trim brutally and then have a meta page with detail - 5 bullets max he said
@jcolebrand can you see the latest faq edit?
@JackDouglas You could combine data warehousing and business intelligence into something like:
o Data warehouse and business intelligence systems: ETL processing, reporting, ROLAP tooling and OLAP cubes.
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells too long :-)
Shog9 wants 3/4 tags in total
I am hoping to persuade him to accept about a dozen
@JackDouglas I'd be inclined to go with more, shorter tags. It's clearer.
5:23 PM
as you cant see the latest version
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells He'll say no - he hates the tags
or do I misunderstand?
More, shorter bullet points, sorry.
I'm OK with the B.I. line - I think it makes the scope pretty clear.
How about:
Database administration, including Configuration, backup/restore and monitoring.
@JackDouglas Actually kinda like that
Last bullet needs some bold
@Shog9 :-)
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells related: should be a synonym of ?
@JackDouglas I would think so.
I've swapped in for
5:33 PM
Sodding proxy is still caching old versions.
we can add if we get rid of something else
@JackDouglas Not enough room on the line?
How about:
- Database Administration - configuration, backup/restore and management.
or monitoring
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells not concise enough
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells administration implies management IMO and monitoring is not big enough to knock off any of the others
@JackDouglas I believe I do, yes
@JackDouglas I think so
how do I quote someones message?
5:38 PM
@JackDouglas That'll do.
eg retweet
@JackDouglas copy and paste it into here?
do you mean on twitter? there should be two arrows feeding each other
Database Administration - installation, backup/restore and monitoring.
@jcolebrand sorry no I meant here - is there a way of doing it that links it?
1 min ago, by Jack Douglas
@jcolebrand sorry no I meant here - is there a way of doing it that links it?
like that?
5:39 PM
that was cut'n'paste?
no, I drug the link arrow down to the textbox
there's other ways to do it, but that seems fastest to me
and you can do it in reply to another post
:3441190 http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/3441190#3441190
12 mins ago, by Shog9
@JackDouglas Actually kinda like that
was what I was trying to do
Which makes me think we should stick right here and have future refinements thrashed out on meta - what do you think?
@JackDouglas that's what I've been asking for
Q: FAQ for Stack Exchange sites

Justin StandardCommunity FAQ For sites in the Stack Exchange 2.0 network To see a list of commonly used words and phrases, see the glossary. Content Asking questions How do I write a good title? How to ask a smart question? How can I get answers fast? Is there a limit on how many questions I can ask? ...

5:44 PM
@jcolebrand oh yes - that is a great idea, but I meant refinements to the 'real' faq
@JackDouglas ooooh, I thought you meant concept refinements
yes, I agree.
5:55 PM
Anyone who feels qualified, please write or refine the tag wikis that are linked from the FAQ - the excerpts are vital because they are visible from the faq itself in the hover box
No 'reporting' tag. I'll re-tag something.
I thought there was one for like reports or report
nope, just reporting-services
6:18 PM
There's a tag for 'window-functions' but not 'windowing-functions'
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells so we need to update that part of the faq?
@jcolebrand Yes, just change the tag to window-functions. I'm doing a tag blurb for it now.
so changed
ok, so I'll probably be AFK for a good bit this afternoon
Just an FYI
6:51 PM
I think that's all the tags in the FAQ documented now.
There are still a shit-load of tags without descriptions, though.
Maybe I'll amuse myself by writing tag blurbs over the next few days.
you really know how to live life to the fullest
@JNK What is this 'Life' you speak of?
It's a good cereal
Life is a breakfast cereal made of whole grain oats, distributed by the Quaker Oats Company. It was introduced in 1961. The cereal's advertisements currently sport the slogan "Life is full of surprises". History Life was popularized during the 1970s by an advertising campaign featuring "Mikey," a hard-to-please four-year-old-boy portrayed by John Gilchrist. His two older brothers were portrayed by his real-life brothers, Michael and Tommy. The commercials featured the catchphrase "He likes it! Hey Mikey!" The ad campaign ran from 1974 to 1986, becoming one of the longest-running telev...
@JNK Perhaps I shall buy a box and try it.
I recommend it
6:56 PM
@JNK Actually I don't think you can get it on this side of the pond. I've never seen it in the supermarkets here.
However, if you want to experience the best of British cuisine, may I suggest:
Image not found
So there is no good british cuisine
oh yes
yeast paste!
vegemite in AU
there is a store near me called "U.K. Gourmet"
that carries this terrible stuff and many other items
@JNK Actually I started out as an orthodox marmite eater (it's made locally in NZ, but tastes a bit different from the British version) and then converted to Vegemite.
it can be forgiven because of your awesome place names
7:00 PM
@JNK Ah, yes:
Pratt's Bottom.
I really did live just up the road from Pratt's Bottom at one point.
@JNK I think that one actually has a leading 'S'
Deep fried mars bar (technically scottish)
Melton Mowbray Lard Pie
Jellied Eels
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells Now that is delicious
@MarkStoreySmith Fatty enough that I can't eat them in quantity.
Something I did notice about the local cuisine when I came here is that it is a lot fattier than I was used to.
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells Prefer my eels smoked.
7:04 PM
@MarkStoreySmith I like smoked eels as well.
Actually I've got a taste for black pudding. Have you ever had it with scallops?
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells Right up there among my favourite foods and that is one combination that I almost always HAVE to order if its on the menu :)
Glad to see the non-dba bollox rate has got back on track for the day :)
@MarkStoreySmith Absolutely - I spent so much time on modding work this afternoon that I had hardly any time for bollocks at all.
@SimonRigharts Evening.
I wonder if I'd get in trouble for asking one of the network engineers if I can SSH home. For "work purposes", obviously
7:08 PM
Just in time for the bollocks
@SimonRigharts Can you go the other way - vpn into work and tunnel a session back to your home PC?
our remote connectivity is some bastardised web version of remote desktop so possibly not
@SimonRigharts Run a proxy off your PC and set up your firewall at that end appropriately?
now you might be on to something
Bonus points if you can get your ISP to lease you new IP addresses through DHCP relatively frequently.
pff, that's no problem. just reboot the router and leave it off for five minutes
presto, new DHCP lease
7:13 PM
@SimonRigharts Now, for bonus points can you do that programatically. If you can't there are various models that people have built custom linux builds for.
Quite a few Linksys models have third-party linux builds available for them with much better feature sets than the standard firmware.
it's a little linksys wag120N, so probably not
the wag120n is a modem/router combo, I don't know if it has a tomato/dd-wrt build because it's not widely sold
@SimonRigharts I imagine you can probably cure that with a bit of google-fu to find out which models are supported.
Ebay is your friend. Trademe is almost as friendly.
Anyway, time for tubby bye-bye. The pub beckons.
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells good work on the tag-wiki, just pinged them through
7:40 PM
@MarkStoreySmith I think I really need to work on getting my rep up to 10,000, I think.
Did you see these stats?
dba.se: 29 with SSIS tags, 8x reporting-services, 25xSSAS, 15xETL, 11xOLAP, 11xbusiness-intelligence.
On Stackoverflow: 500xMDX, 2624xSSIS, 652xssas, 144xanalysis-services, 1305xreporting, 3911xreporting-services, 381xOLAP
Unanswered on stackoverflow: 236xSSAS (36%), 643xSSIS (25%), 1,362xreporting-services (35%), 130xOLAP (34%), 66xETL (20%), 188xMDX (37%)
All of these tags have considerably higher unanswered rates than the average across Stackoverflow (about 18% IIRC).
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells Lends credence to shifting them over here. Move the unanswereds over gradually, answer them, 10k in a couple of weeks :)
B.I. Questions get quite a poor answer rate on SO.
By the OP, on an answer
@MarkStoreySmith Something like that. I'll probably go through the unanswered on SO over the next few weeks and answer/migrate any half decent or salvagable ones.
I've got truckloads of rep on SO so I can do pretty much any necessary edit-fu except maybe convert to comments.
@MarkStoreySmith :D
Normally I'd view it as cheating, but I think a bit of rep-whoring on B.I. questions is probably what's called for here.
@MarkStoreySmith fantastic
7:47 PM
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells Helps SO (bring down unanswered count), helps here (boosting B.I. content)
@MarkStoreySmith Exactly, it answers actual questions where SO can be shown to be weak, helps seed the B.I. content.
8:06 PM
hello Dr. Bertrand
hello sir JNK the 14th
anybody see my burger?
was it burger-shaped?
its been eaten
COTW had a culinary spree earlier
it probably was sucked in there
@MarkStoreySmith awesome. Though I agree with the OP that the opening statement was a little crass even by my standards. :-)
@JNK covenant of the witches? What is COTW?
8:08 PM
Concerned of Tunbbridge Wells
oh I see
@JNK You rang?
explaining your acronym to aaron
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells and I think he accused you of eating my missing burger
Q: "Concerned of Tunbridge Wells" - what is the etymology of the name?

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWellsWhat is the origin of "Concerned of Tunbridge Wells" - a possibly fictitious writer of letters to the editor? Can anyone dig out a definitive etymology for the term, or is it just a conflation of 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells'?

8:10 PM
Why do people call a Numbers table a "tally table"? It is not neccessarily tallying anything. It's just a collection of unique numbers.
And yes I know how to spell necessarily. I just type faster than I think.
not sure aaron, havent heard that name before
It's like calling a car a drive-in movie viewer. Yes you can use it for that but you can also use it for other things.
@JNK do you always refer to it as a Numbers table?
Ok, phew.
its got numbers in it right?
8:12 PM
ding ding
i also call date tables "date tables"
because they contain dates
actually correction I call it a "number table" singular
well I'm a hypocrite there. I've always called those calendar tables.
because they contain at least one calendar of dates. :-)
@AaronBertrand Date dimensions?
In the right context
8:14 PM
Jeff Moden has sadly perpetuated this "tally table" term all over the Internet.
It came up today in this question:
Q: Disaggregate Table Over 2 Columns in T-SQL

Brad UraniIf I have the following table Hour Clicks Conversions 12:00 2 0 1:00 3 2 2:00 1 1 How do I write a SELECT statment that dissaggrates it across both columns, so I get: 12:00 1 0 12:00 1 0 1:00 1 0 1:00 1 1 1:00 1 1 2:00 1 1 If I can't do it with ...

Know what a tally pad is?
@jcolebrand must be from before my time, something nerds used in the 70s to solve quadratic equations?
@AaronBertrand You could probably do it with a TVF if that took your fancy.
i saw that q
8:16 PM
Do you know why they're called tally pads?
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells yes, it can be done inline too, there are a number of different ways. All depends on the problem and how often it will be re-used.
Because you jot down a sequence of numbers, and later you generally sum them up
but tally pad's are always temporary, ephemeral, peripheral to the task at hand
Anyway gentlemen and @JNK, the pub awaits.
i would expect a tally table to have a running total of soemthing
and so, in the same way, a tally table is peripheral, often they are temporary by those who do not recognize their true value as a permanent structure.
8:17 PM
@jcolebrand gotcha, thanks. I still prefer "table of Numbers" :-)
But you ask anybody who's been using one for years, and you'll find that for those people, they are permanent additions to their lives.
I bet those in this room that use number tables make sure they're one of the first things generated on a new database.
I do.
I create a numbers table in a utility database, and then a synonym to it in model.
Which puts it in every database except those restored / attached from elsewhere.
Just like my old boss used to always have a tally pad in his shirt or coat pocket ;-)
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