Math Mods' Office - 2016-12-03

1:16 AM

One more (final for now) thought: if anything the syn should go in the other direction. It's hardly ever a good idea to map tags from general to special, as it can result in mistags.

Martin Sleziak

5:06 AM

Were past winter-bashes featured? 2013- yes, for 10 days; 2014 - no, 2015 - yes, for about a week.

However, since it will appear in community bulletin naturally, due to number of upvotes. It is probably better that it does not bump something else from CB. How are the contents of the Community Bulletin determined?

arjafi

7:59 AM

@quid The topology tag was additionally merged into the general-topology tag when the synonym was made (see Qiaochu's comment to this deleted answer. So unsynonymising should just remove the synonym, allowing topology to be added to new questions without changing the tagging of any older questions.

When I have a bit more time to observe the effects I'll do the dirty work. Perhaps in a couple hours.

Martin Sleziak

I see that subspaces tag is gone. Thanks for that! I guess it was just removed and blacklisting will be discussed if it reappears.

@MartinSleziak Simple removal would be fine for now. If it becomes a recurring problem, then a blacklist might be appropriate. But there's no need to involve CMs at this moment. — arjafi ♦ Sep 10 '15 at 16:37

@arjafi Should perhaps your answer suggesting removing the tag be updated. Or at least should it be mentioned in a comment there that the tag has been removed?

quid

11:52 AM

@arjafi exactly. Therefore a fortiori there is zero immediate negative consequence in undoing the synonym right now. A benefit is though that future mistags are avoided. As long as none explains a future negative effect that outweighs this, it seems clear the synonym should be undone.

Thank you for your intention to look into the matter. I appreciate this.

Interestingly it seems Asaf was skeptical about that merge then already. I hope I do not misrepresent him there, but the intent of the comment seemed to explain why there is some reason in keeping the tags apart.

Martin Sleziak

2:12 PM

@MartinSleziak The answer related to removal of subspaces has been updated:

7

A: What to do with the (subspaces) tag?

Update. The subspaces tag has been removed thanks to a friendly neighbourhood Community Manager. There's another possibility that hasn't been mentioned in the OP, and the one I would prefer: kill it! I don't see subspaces as a tag that will ever be consistently used, and not something that ...

Martin Sleziak

4:45 PM

If I correctly understood, the tag (topology) has been completely removed today. So is this intended as the discussion how the tag warning should look like if the tag reappears? Or is it possible to create tag warnings for tags which are non-existent tags, too? — Martin Sleziak 18 mins ago

@MartinSleziak I wouldn't say that it has been completely removed, but that previously its only existence was as a synonym of general-topology. Over the last 5 years there were over 1000 cases where the topology tag was "added" to a question, only to be silently switched to general-topology by the synonym. It's only a matter of time before this tag appears on its own. (I'm sure that it's possible to add tag warnings to non-existent tags, since I'm pretty sure it's all about regexes, similar to blacklists.) — arjafi ♦ 12 mins ago

@arjafi Let me respond here, so that we do not have too long exchange in the comments there.

The tag (topology) was indeed removed. You can check that it is not offered among tags when you ask question: math.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/topology

If you compare it for example with: math.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/prove-disprove

In both cases the page says that there are 0 questions. But in the second case you can see: "The prove-disprove tag has no usage guidance, can you help us create it?" No such thing is shown for (topology) tag.

This means that (prove-disprove) was removed only today - that page will look like that until the daily script removes the tag.

arjafi

@MartinSleziak My point is is that it didn't really exist to begin with. It's only existence prior to my removal of the synonym was as a line in the TagSynonyms table in the database. How can you remove something that wasn't really there to begin with?

Martin Sleziak

So the topology tag does not exist at the moment, if somebody wants to add it to the post, they will have to create it again.

@arjafi I disagree. If you start typing topol in the tag field, it was offered, now it is not.

I think that there is a difference between tag which is in the system as a synonym and tag which is not in the system.

But that is not the main point - and not important. I was just trying to explain what I meant.

Basically I am wondering what is the thing you are suggesting in the post on meta.

You have mentioned regular expressions and warnings, I remember seeing them here: meta.math.stackexchange.com/questions/21966/…

arjafi

@MartinSleziak You are missing my subtle point. The topology tag didn't exist as a tag prior to my removal of the synonym. It only existed as a synonym to another tag. (There weren't even any remnants of the tag from prior to the synonym because the tags were merged.) The system often acted as if there was a topology tag, but in actual fact there wasn't one.

Martin Sleziak

Ok, you are right.

So you agree that the tag does not exist now, right?

I was wrong to say that it was removed - it did not exist before either.

arjafi

Yes, the tag hasn't existed for a number of years. And continues to not exist, AFAIK.

Martin Sleziak

4:57 PM

So if somebody wants to use it in question, they have to create it.

arjafi

Yes. So they'd need 1000 rep, IIRC.

Martin Sleziak

So in the post on meta you are suggesting tag warning which will be implemented if the tag is created by someone in the future...?

Or is it possible to create tag warning for topology tag despite the fact that no such tag is in the system?

Or is there actually no difference between tag warning and other types of warnings - the ones mentioned here: meta.math.stackexchange.com/questions/21966/…?

arjafi

@MartinSleziak First shown if someone attempts to create the tag. (When someone attempts to use/create a blacklisted tag a "warning" of sorts pops up. These tags don't exist, so I don't see the big deal.)

Martin Sleziak

Well, in the case of blacklisted tag it's a bit different - since the user is not allowed to create the tag.

arjafi

Blacklisted input additionally will not allow the post to be posted. But there's still a regex check somewhere in there. I mean, if the tag was created, and the warning is put in place, and later that tag is removed (for whatever reason), I see no reason why the warning should stop showing.

Martin Sleziak

5:04 PM

Maybe it is just a terminological things.

So tag warning is just another name for the usual type of warning. Some warnings can be triggered by text in the body (like don't shout), some in the title (short title, some words).

This would be warning dependent on what's in the tag field.

Is it more-or-less what you meant?

arjafi

That's my understanding of things. Warnings are warnings; the might be localised to certain input fields, but they all do basically the same thing.

Martin Sleziak

Re: why the warning should stop showing. That depends on how things are implemented. Some things associated with tags are lost when they are removed, like tag wiki and tag excerpt.

Since they are called by different names (warnings vs. tag warnings), I thought that they are different thing. And I thought that tag warning is associated with a specific tag, not with some regex or something else.

So I guess I was wrong.

arjafi

I mean, a tag warning will show up when a specific tag is used (or attempted to be used). But I'm pretty sure it's still basically a regex check. Hypothetically I think you could have a warning show up for a large class of tags according to a regex. Similarly, tags are blacklisted according to regexes. So number and numbers are matched by ^numbers?$.

Martin Sleziak

Ok, since you say you're sure about this, I should take your word for it.

Sorry for wasting your time by having to clear up confusions of a noob...

arjafi

I mean, from what I can see this is how tag blacklists work. If I were designing a system I wouldn't have two very different ways of doing essentially the same thing.

Of course not being an SE dev I have no first-hand knowledge of these matters, and perhaps it is all a ruse and they hard code everything instead of ever relying on regexes.

Martin Sleziak

5:14 PM

I simply did not understood how things work. I thought that tag blacklist (like your example with numbers) work differently as tag warnings.

And similarly, that warnings work differently as tag warnings.

arjafi

As I said, I think those two (warnings, blacklists) do largely similar things. One allows input to go through, the other not. Rather than having two different routines, I'd code one with an if statement somewhere in the middle to catch this difference.

Martin Sleziak

Ok.

It's probably moot point at the moment anyway. We will see whether somebody tries to create the tag again.

And if it is created, whether it survives longer than a few hours.

And by the way, thanks for both - for removing subspaces and also taking care of the topology synonym.

Martin Sleziak

5:29 PM

And thanks also for your time and patience. It seems that all was caused by my misunderstanding how things work (and not reading your comment carefully enough).

quid

9:40 PM

@MartinSleziak nit-pick and attempted humor alarm continue reading at your own risk: "lost when they are removed, like tag wiki and tag excerpt" they are not lost, they became orphans and as such are put in a home for orphans under the tutelage of the moderators. (They are actually called orphaned wikis or some such thing and there is a mod only list of those.)

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$Mathematics$ Math Mods' Office