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12:01 AM
Hyperlink to Google Books, simple.
@alan2here Unfortunately it's quite common for there not to be an easily available source like google books
@BenBrocka Oh, ok, somewhat annoying. Also the notification sound here :¬o thought something had happened to my laptop at first.
@BenBrocka The world should get more organised.
@BenBrocka I always hated Harvard Refrances, unlike Hyperlinks, they seem designed to be inaccessible and confusing.
I've got a question btw, I may or may not try and make it into a question on the site. I'm just going to open it up to the room for now and see if anyone knows anything more about it.
@BenBrocka I love thease XKCD's btw. Many seem to be based on the power association like this one is, to great effect.
There is behaviour I'm looking for information about, below are two examples of it in people, although the 2nd example is from fiction.

Featured on the TV show QI. "Jumping Frenchmen of Maine" refers to various symptoms, one of thease is that they "obey any command given suddenly", there is also the suggestion that unexpectedness is factor too, it seems to be to do with the startle reflex although information on the startle reflex in related conditions (that arn't that related) don't seem to provide much information. Do any other disorders or similar have this symptom? Is there more inform
12:29 AM
@alan2here Yeah, you can turn off the sound effects, click the speaker button to the left of the "all rooms" button, top right
@BenBrocka I like it now I know it's not actually something breaking :¬P
Finding and citing references is easily my least favorite part of research. The DOI set up is supposed to make it easier but the scientific community has been woefully slow in adapting to the internet and even worse in providing a good user experience for finding,citing and reading articles
hence currently the best one can usually hope for is a free PDF on a site that Google Scholar manages to find...
@alan2here hyperlinks are great but they break. Our reference guidelines (and APA's) are put together so that regardless of any (non-DOI) hyperlink, a reader can find a referenced article
Q: Controversial questions

JeffConsider this question: Do porn and other remotely perceived entertainments work because of Mirror Neurons? This touches on a very controversial topic in Cog Sci, the idea of mirror neurons. Many pop-science books and magazines sensationalize mirror neurons, due to their parsimonious explanati...

Does anyone have an answer to my QI question btw, or comments of how to phrase it as a question other than just going though it with a comb and correcting confusingly workeded bits and typos, which I plan to do anyway. I don't really want to trawl all the tourettes stuff again for refrances and the such because it's not really relevent.
@BenBrocka Theres a TED talk on it, it can't be that Controversial. TED talk makes it offical :¬P
I do hope you're not serious >>
@alan2here what question is that?
oh nvm I see it, reading
@alan2here Sounds interesting, post a specific question if you can and give a little backgronud to what it is. you probably won't get much response in the chatroom on a weekend
In fact I'm about to head off myself, nice chatting with you though. I look forward to the question :)
12:45 AM
@BenBrocka Somewhat. The :¬P is that I'm joking about TED Talks being infallible. Although I do consider TED talks to be reliable, accesable, acurate, morally in the right directionsm generally excelent.
Ok, thanks for that. I had a bit of troubble with my last question you see. I'm going to try then on the main site with a question.
Unfortunately thanks to Old MEdia accessible news often equates with an astounding lack of scientific rigor or outright incorrect interpretations of results. I've been too lazy to check out TED talks directly so far so I can't speak as to their specific accuracy
@alan2here I'll try and look over it tomorrow and I'll let you know how it can be improved if there's a problem
@BenBrocka It's ok now, just took a whole day to sort out at the time :¬P
@BenBrocka TED walks the line, it's accessible due to being so well designed but also very in depth.
@BenBrocka I'm exaggerating on the very, lets just say more than what you might expect.
Can't think of any tags :¬(
1:06 AM
Q: Obey any command given suddenly, as in the Jumping Frenchmen of Maine

alan2hereThere is behaviour I'm looking for information about, below are two examples of this behaviour, although the 2nd example is from fiction. Featured on the TV show QI. "Jumping Frenchmen of Maine" refers to various symptoms, one of thease is that they "obey any command given suddenly", there is al...

No down votes yet, this is promising.
1:47 AM
@alan2here I've been disappointed in a few TED talks before. I'd say, never lose your guard.
Something being famous should always raise your guard even more.
1 hour later…
3:02 AM
@StevenJeuris I'd like to know ones that are inaccurate and why. I've just had to delete paragraphs of text about why I think it's so great as to not be too fanboy :¬P
3:17 AM
@alan2here Don't get me wrong, I love TED. But the entire format (short 'novel' talks) inspires talks which just mention the good stuff.
3 hours later…
5:59 AM
@alan2here 'scientific' TED talks also have a tendency to take out all the science and leave in just the punch-lines, motivations, and fluff
they really don't give you a good idea of what science looks like
8 hours later…
2:08 PM
Great to see lost of chat in here over the weekend!
I've been AFK a lot but checking in periodically. As always if anyone needs me just @Josh and I'll respond shortly!
@ArtemKaznatcheev ted.com/talks/drew_berry_animations_of_unseeable_biology.html
Hey there @alan2here, how are you doing?
@ArtemKaznatcheev I know thats not what you meant :¬P And abstraction can be nice, however, if cells were also taught like this, they could be understood in a few weeks, instead of a few years.
@JoshGitlin Well, feel free to post a reply to my new question, not about dreams this time.
@JoshGitlin Just lots of work at DMU, but I've some time to spend here.
@alan2here I was just reading that!
I don't know if I'l be able to help answer it, it's above my level of expertise, but I'll be interested to see how others answer it!
@ArtemKaznatcheev I'd aprove of more detail too tbh, it's still a big step forward from other things. While were on it -> khanacademy.org/exercisedashboard
@JoshGitlin :¬)
2:25 PM
But for the moment I need to head away from my desk. I'll catch you later @alan
@JoshGitlin ok
Why are there only two rooms showing at chat/stackexchange.com/rooms?
2:43 PM
@alan those ate probably just the cogsci rooms. You should be able to choose a site
I am on mobile atm and can't check
If you can't figure it out check or ask on meta.stackoverflow.com
1 hour later…
3:53 PM
Q: Can an average person be involuntarily hypnotised?

CasebashFrom Skeptics Stackexchange: Often hypnotism is accomplished by convincing an audience member to play along, or by selecting out someone who is suggestible. Can an average person be involuntarily hypnotised? Update: Let us assume that the situation is as follows. A man is willing t...

Is this being downvoted because it's too basic?
I was wondering the same thing.
Although my guess is it's definitely lack of research.
@alan2here I don't know, the normal introduction of cells in middle school is easy enough to grasp if you pay attention. Cells aren't extremely complex unless you get into the hundreds of minor details
As far as I know you aren't even able to do things against your will under hypnosis.
@JoshGitlin lack of research effort, fairly general question since he's not asking based on any information from research, and hypnosis is quite well understood to be a voluntary phenomenon in psychology
You guys can vote to close right? Or should we?
Rather see a few vote to closes by the community.
3:59 PM
@StevenJeuris Depends how you define "against your will", you're able to do things "against your will" in the same way you can ever do something against your will. Arguably everything is either willfully done or done unconciously or due to automated processes like breathing
@BenBrocka Now that starts to sound a bit philosophical. ;p
well there's only 7 of us that can cast close votes, and 3 of them are mods
@BenBrocka those all sound like valid reasons to me. I don't like seeing nothing but a blockquote from another site
@StevenJeuris it's true though, if you initiate an action it is by definition by your will. Hypnosis would have to be a state without ability to willfully decide to do things
@StevenJeuris we should not close unless the community feels it should be closed
4:01 PM
even with a gun to your head you voluntarily do everything you do, you can just as easily get yourself shot. It's a matter of pressure to perform an action, not an actual loss of will
Remember we can't vote to close anymore
@BenBrocka good explanation
@BenBrocka anyone can flag
True, have any flags been raised?
@JoshGitlin I know, that's why I was asking others to vtc. :)
I saw wiki except flags yesterday evening.
4:02 PM
@StevenJeuris okay cool :-) Just making sure
But I had a few beers, so decided to pass them on to Josh or Jeromy. :)
IMO the question can be answered...I just wasn't going to bother to put together a comprehensive answer for such a question when "read the damn wikipedia" should really suffice
Oh, I meant no flags on that question. one flag was raised and Jeromy handled it
@BenBrocka especially not worth your time if it's likely to be deleted
You mean tag wikis? I added one and I think @ArtemKaznatcheev added a bunch more by example, I approved them
Can we see an overview of all the tags which contain info?
4:04 PM
Eh, possible to be closed, I don't see why deleting it would be necessary
Tag excepts show up below the tag, it's very clear which don't have them
@BenBrocka In that case, let's just keep the down votes as an indication of that. Your comment already mentions it lacks proper research. Closing might not be necessary if somebody feels like answering it.
goes afk again
@BenBrocka facepalm ... should've checked tags of course.
My head is still spinning a bit from yesterday, but on the bright side, I was able to pass the blind beer testing 'exam'. :)
I recognized 10 out of 14 beers correctly.
wait, how does Skeptics get this notification at the end of this post: skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/508/5040
4:19 PM
@BenBrocka :O WANT!
I'll ask on meta, or check their meta
yeah, that's what I was thinking
Q: "citation needed" header

vartecShould answers, which allegedly lack references be "decorated" with following header? This post does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this answer by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be down-voted or removed.

That's not it, it's not part of the post like that
add post notice
citation needed
This post does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.
See this is why I wanted to be a mod :P Didn't even know a too like that existed
4:25 PM
@BenBrocka Help us get out of beta, and run in the elections! You have my vote. Hell, I'll actively campaign for you :-)
In the mean time @Ben flag anything you want that on (or any other mod action) and I'll mod-by-proxy for you, in a way
This will also raise your helpful flags so when election time does come, you'll show as an outstanding candidate
Yeah, judging from UX I'll only have to wait 500 days and we'll be out of veta!
:-( I really hope we can get out of beta much sooner than that
We need more users
@JoshGitlin When we have more users we get out of beta faster right? :) So that's a moot point.
UX.SE beat all of the metrics easily before it was out of beta except questions per day I believe
@StevenJeuris I'm not sure what you mean by "that's a moot point"?
4:27 PM
For several months actually
@BenBrocka Really. Well, I'll ask about what took them so long to launch
unless you already know
Also, if we're doing that well, we'll probably need a fourth pro tem mod
@JoshGitlin Hmm 'moot' might not be the correct word, and I see I misinterpreted you. :) I read it like this "get out of beta much sooner .... so that we can get more users".
oh, yeah, you misread me. I meant get more users so we can get out of beta :-)
@JoshGitlin ;p confusion solved!
As far as new users/day, we did good on Friday! Saturday not as well, but that's no surprise
4:31 PM
@JoshGitlin if you mean ask UX.SE, we don't really know
we were pretty much just waiting for executive approval
@BenBrocka I mean I will ask the Stack Exchange staff why that site took so long to launch, specifically Robert Cantriano, rchern, or Aarthi
We were told for a couple months either "we want it to catch on more in the UX community" (we're on page 2 on the Google results for UX or user experience) or "not enough users/stats" which was BS because we beat the metrics
specifically I will ask them "What can Cog Sci do better than UX? We don't want to wait 55o days to get out of beta"
I don't think there was anything particular is what I'm saying
I think they were just doing other stuff and never got around to it
I'll note 3 other active betas are in the 500+ day range as well...
all of them "excellent" in all stats except questions per day (which no one seems to meet by the way)
Ug. That's a really long beta.
DBA was in beta for less than a year, that seems much more reasonable
4:37 PM
@JoshGitlin: I found another thread of ours on meta yesterday. :) And I'm hoping @BenBrocka would be on my side on this one. :)
Q: Always show chat and blog link in the top bar

Steven JeurisIt's been addressed before, the "chat" link which either shows up or doesn't show up in the top bar is confusing. (hardly surprising) I suggest the following: Always show the "chat" link. Always show the "blog" link (when the SE site has a blog). Highlight the blog link instead of putting "new...

I still don't understand their decision on this at all.
@StevenJeuris pointing out my MSO snarkyness are we? ;-)
@JoshGitlin No, just found it funny, because we rarely disagree. :)
Oh, haha, I see :-) I also don't disagree quite so vehemently if I'm not on MSO :-)
Actually, I could turn part of that meta question into a UX question and into a HCI question here on CogSci perhaps ... but not today.
Turn science against SE decisions. :)
> Well, this is a feature-request, asking to reconsider the status-bydesign. ;p – Steven Jeuris Dec 15 '11
> Good luck with that Steven, I haven't seen many succeed on that quest! ;-) – The Unhandled Exception Dec 15 '11 at 15:19
Sad but (still) true
4:41 PM
@StevenJeuris I think a worse problem is that chat doesn't show up in the beta site sidebar, only on meta (which is rarely used)
"I that case, never put it in the top link. It's not an issue whether it's hard to find. The issue is it's inconsistent and confusing. I learned I was able to find it there, and afterwards it's no longer there ... that's the problem." .. got 4 up votes. :) More than the actual feature-request.
@BenBrocka I hadn't noticed! That is terrible!
The "help this site grow" thing seems to replace it entirely. IT should really just push down the chat box.
I swear if this damn ipad doesn't restore properly...
I really wonder what was gonig through their brains when Apple decided the only way to stop syncing iOS apps to a PC would be to $%^ing delete everything from your iPad
It's punishment for using anything other than an Apple device? :)
It'd happen if I did the same on a Mac :/
Turns out retarded iTunes was syncing all my apps (15GB of them) to my SSD for no reason (they're backed up in the cloud anyway)
I think iCloud backup has me covered but I'm waiting for all my apps to redownload
Q: Is the 15 questions per day metric a fair evaluation of beta sites?

Ben BrockaBrowsing through the longest beta period sites, like Personal Finance, I noticed not a single one actually had 15 questions per day. Even for our Launched Sites 15 questions per day is fairly uncommon. Is the 15 questions per day really a fair metric to judge sites on? Of the top betas none of t...

5:08 PM
Sorry guys my iMac locked up while trying to post on mso
This is why meta means murder!
I don't have a grudge against Apple or anything, but the past hour hasn't been too postive about Apple. :)
Lol indeed not
5:31 PM
There we go
Q: Can we display how long launched sites were in beta on their Area 51 proposals?

The Unhandled ExceptionWhen evaluating how well a given Area 51 site in public beta is doing, it's helpful to compare to other Area 51 sites that have launched. I think a useful metric to see would be how long each site that has now launched was in beta for prior to launch. This should be trivial to add: This would ...

5:48 PM
^^^ Prime example of why I love Meta. Such hideous drawings are quite unbecoming of a mod, but as "The Unhandled Exception" I can post those and get mass upvotes
I am going out now. @Josh me if anyone needs me!
6:02 PM
unicorns freehand circles and waffles
what Could go wrong?
Hello all
@StevenJeuris I think we should close the question. If a question is bad and does not comply with our standard of initial research then we should make it know by voting to close, in order to discourage others from asking such questions. I will go vote to close on that question as off-topic.
6:28 PM
@digitaloday hello
not a whole lot going on here
Not much chat on weekends (or any SE activity)
I usually check in at work
6:44 PM
@JoshGitlin It's because people here love to downvote :¬P
I'm back btw.
@ArtemKaznatcheev Thanks for the feedback, I'll see whether there is any official guideline on this. Technically the question can be answered, and it's just low quality. I see how you can interpret it to be off-topic, as it's too broad and this site expects a narrower scope. Although generally off-topic is used in a sense that it doesn't relate to the area of expertise this site is about, so I'm not really convinced it is that suitable.
@BenBrocka The hundreds of minor details, the crooks of how the atomic mechanism was what I was thinking in this case, although a nice 3D interactive diagram like in the video that could be set to levels of detail would be nice, even when just used on a large scale to circle, label and describe key systems. I supose it's a way of thinking about how to make otherwise complex things accessable while potentially keeping the complexity I partically like.
@JoshGitlin I'd like to know the answer to this as well, we could help up-vote it a bit.
Wasn't there ever a 'low quality' close reason?
Or I just requested that. :)
We have such differnt attitudes to post quality reguarding sources and the such agaisn't something like stack overflow.
Sorry, replying to posts made this morning is probbably a bit confusing, just I've been busy.
Q: Obey any command given suddenly, as in the Jumping Frenchmen of Maine

alan2hereThere is behaviour I'm looking for information about, below are two examples of this behaviour, although the 2nd example is from fiction. The first example is featured on the TV show QI, "Jumping Frenchmen of Maine" refers to various symptoms, one is that those affected "obey any command given s...

Is anyone who is thinking the two examples are really different here. I don't agree, especially since there are no answers yet, but if you can convince me then I'd apreceate the opertunity to imporove the question.
@StevenJeuris I would think low quality is not a specific enough reason for a close, they should give more detail.
Everyones not talking now I'm back :¬(
7:02 PM
@alan2here I just wish most people would appreciate what the hell a cell is and DNA
Organic, self replicating computer, like a non-synthetic rep-rap, but better.
Could whoever that was re-send the invite? I seem to have messed it up.
A science net on Khan Academy would help loads. You could just point people towards it and let them spend a few days getting up to A level\pre-degree level.
7:18 PM
Casper, you've invited me to a room then left the room :¬P
I'm putting a bounty on my question soon.
@StevenJeuris at cstheory we close below-level questions as off-topic, because the scope of the site was defined as research-level, so non-research level is outside the scope. A similar thing can be done for CogSci, if the scope is questions not answerable by an obvious wikipedia search, then a question that is answered by wikipedia would be not in scope and thus off-topic.
However, the reason we all have individual ability to cast close-votes is so that we can express our opinion on what is the topic on our own
thus, if most people disagree with me, it is fine, the question will just remain open with only 1 close-vote from me.
@ArtemKaznatcheev Wouldn't that quickly result in problems when new wikipedia articles are created or are adjusted?
I rather close as NARQ, even if in my opinion some kind of no effort close reason would be more suitable.
@StevenJeuris I obviously didn't mean it as a hard guideline. The guideline I would follow is to not allow questions that are at the level of introductory psych courses.
but we have discussed this on meta
yeah, I agreee... the real reason I want to close that question
is no-effort
but I deem no-effort as off-topic
I guess you deem it as NARQ
I am just following the conventions of SE I am most used to
but if we decide to deem no-effort questions as NARQ on this SE, then that is also fine with me
I just don't like the idea of keeping no-effort questions open
even with down-votes
because they will get answers, and people will continue to ask no-effort questions
which will reduce the quality of the site
especially since no-effort questions usually come from one-time users who don't care about the rep consequences of being downvotes (and really, there are no rep consequences, since a downvotes does so much less than an upvote)
7:31 PM
@ArtemKaznatcheev Whathever we deem it as, we should be consistent about it. I have noticed users get confused quickly about why a question got closed, even when the close reason says so. It randomly being closed either NARQ or off-topic doesn't help.
we can comment upon closing
"closed as off-topic (or NARQ) because did not show any (or enough?) initial research effort"
The problem with your definition of off-topic is it is bound to one moment in time. A user might have encountered other similar questions which weren't off-topic.
it is bound to the community
I definitely always encourage to leave a comment, and even more so in edge cases.
like, today I was trying to recruit one of my co-authors to the site
and I read the titles of some of the questions to him
and he just face-palmed
so I continue to push hard to discourage no-effort questions
7:35 PM
@ArtemKaznatcheev Thanks for all the input, I've linked to this discussion in the mod room so they will definitely read this as well. Meanwhile, consider putting down your thoughts in more detail on meta?
I've done so before, and maybe I will again
don't want to be that much of a hastle
I see your answer there is quite limited. Consider expanding on it. You actually said more here in chat than on meta. ;p
also, I only have so much time and effort I am willing to invest in this site
@ArtemKaznatcheev Oh but it is not a hassle. We don't have enough meta users, so we definitely need a more varied set of opinions.
7:37 PM
K. Thanks for all the input! I'm having dinner now, followed by a few beers in town. ;p Talk to you later!
have a good night
7:56 PM
I just closed this question because it had 3 close votes and 4 downvotes. If anyone wants to discuss my reasoning here, please contact me in here or better yet, ask on our Meta site.
Q: Can an average person be involuntarily hypnotised?

CasebashFrom Skeptics Stackexchange: Often hypnotism is accomplished by convincing an audience member to play along, or by selecting out someone who is suggestible. Can an average person be involuntarily hypnotised? Update: Let us assume that the situation is as follows. A man is willing t...

@alan2here I think it was downvoted for better reasons than that :-)
Now I have to go AFK again, but I will be back later
Josh closed Casebash question, so rules of engagement dictate that he must answer it himself in the chat :¬P
btw, if anyone else wants to try with a similar question I'll give a free upvote.
why would you give free upvotes to bad questions?
an upvote is not suppose to indicate "I like this topic" it is suppose to indicate that you think this is a well researched, well asked, well scoped question
I voted to reopen the following question:
Q: What are the "Must Know" papers of Cognitive Science?

Ofri RavivWhat are the works/papers/results/theories any expert in cognitive science should know, even if they're outside his/her specific field of expertise? One paper/theory per answer please, and state why do you find this work important to know (and ideally, not just because it has lots of citations, ...

however, my vote is under the condition that it is made community-wiki
I don't think the question is too broad
or off-base for a research site
8:15 PM
hello room
8:26 PM
kinda dead in here i see
it is a Sunday, tho ;)
8:41 PM
I wouldn't ofc if the question was clearly poorly writtain.
anyone here interested in the intersection of linguistics and cognitive science?
9:03 PM
linguistics ∩ cognitive science?
We're up 100 visitors per day compared to a week ago :)
@digitaloday we have some linguistics people around (and some users of linguistics.stackexchange.com) but I'm not a linguistics person myself
i just jumped in that room, thanks for the referral
9:24 PM
Must resist asking what rymes with "orange", then answering with "door hinge".
I know somone who loves ligustical stuff, I've sent him the link.
10:07 PM
@alan2here And I will do so!
I closed that question because it had three other close votes and four downvotes. The future for that question was not very bright.
However, I will gladly reverse my decision if the OP improves it and the downvotes are reversed, or if the community requests that I do so.
Q: Reopen request - Can an average person be involuntarily hypnotised?

CasebashThis question was closed. I'd like to request for it to be reopened. I added a paragraph to explain why I don't consider it to be convincingly answered. This question was never convincingly answered. Of the two answers, one was a philosophical discussion of what involuntary means and the ot...

@ArtemKaznatcheev I voted to close that question before I was a mod, for the record
We need to get Casebash onto the chat.
@ArtemKaznatcheev I will reopen and make community wiki if the community decided we want to allow such questions. Please ask on our Meta site
@alan2here Would you like me to summon him?
Yes please.
I am about to go AFK again (weekends are bad for me) but I will read any conversion you have with him while I am gone. And I will be available to chat again starting tomorrow
@casebash If you would like to discuss the closing of your question, please join us in chat
@alan2here Done! I'll check back later and see what is discussed
10:14 PM
@alan2here You're very welcome.
10:32 PM
@JoshGitlin thanks for the info, I've been paying attention for the last month, don't worry so I am aware that you guys JUST became moderators.
What should I tag the obey any command question with? I've still just got it tagged as cognitive-psychology.
11:05 PM
@alan2here Feel free to add a new tag if you find it appropriate. If it doesn't get used after a while the tag will simply be removed automatically.
However, please keep these instructions in mind when tagging.
11:19 PM
I don't have the rep.

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