Election 2016!

ArtOfCode

12:00 AM

It will have been a factor, yes, but only in a small, insignificant chunk of the electorate

El'endia Starman

Obama was (and still is) black and he still won. I doubt gender had all that much to do with it.

Shog9

Lots of things were factors. Be careful about attributing any one of them to an individual and even more about painting millions.

Kaz

@Zizouz212 Maybe. A little. But I'd actually expect the pro-female support to outweigh any lingering misogyny. Much like how Barack Obama did the same with race.

The problem with Clinton is, first and foremost, her surname.

ArtOfCode

I'm not sure I'd put a surname first and foremost...

El'endia Starman

@ArtOfCode The Japanese do.

ArtOfCode

12:02 AM

@El'endiaStarman took me a moment

Shog9

/instantrimshot

Rand al'Thor

@Shog9 Yeah. It's easy to say "oh, all Trump voters are sexists", just like it's easy to say "oh, all Brexit voters are racists", but ... half the voters in the country? Seriously? There has to be more to it than that.

quartata

@El'endiaStarman hahaha

ArtOfCode

"What did the Japanese have to do with the election voting?"

Rand al'Thor

@El'endiaStarman Nice :-D

El'endia Starman

12:03 AM

^_^

Rand al'Thor

@ArtOfCode They rigged it, of course :-P

ArtOfCode

sigh here goes the rigging again...

Kaz

@ArtOfCode It's what it represents. The Clintons are as arch-establishment as you get. The only candidate who would've been even more unpopular was Jeb Bush. The republicans tried to rig the primary for him, they failed, and they got Trump. The democrats tried to annoint Hillary as their chosen successor and she *nearly* lost to Bernie Bloody Sanders.

Zizouz212

lol

Rand al'Thor

@ArtOfCode Note the :-P. That wasn't a serious claim. (But I'll delete it if it hits too many raw nerves.)

Shog9

12:05 AM

@Kaz lotta folks assumed it was gonna be Jeb vs Hillary at the start of this. That... Probably wouldn't have made folks any happier, to be quite honest.

Zizouz212

@Randal'Thor I have a hunch he was in :P mode too :)

Shog9

@Randal'Thor we'll tell you to go listen to the Sex Pistols if it comes up again.

ArtOfCode

indeed

@Shog9 there's a reference here that I'm not getting

Zizouz212

Umm... Wat?

Shog9

@ArtOfCode google it

ArtOfCode

12:06 AM

or perhaps am too young to get

Zizouz212

If you're too young, I'm waaaay too young

Rand al'Thor

@Shog9 "God save the Queen / Of this fascist regime"?

Shog9

heh, not that pointed

ArtOfCode

@Shog9 quite a lot of those hits could apply here... "Anarchy in the UK", "Pretty Vacant", "No One Is Innocent"... says Google.

Rand al'Thor

I may be a Brit, but I'm no monarchist. Feel free :-)

Zizouz212

12:08 AM

Oh dear

Shog9

Anyway, Rand had it right a minute ago: it's very tempting to pick the least complementary rationale and assign it to the folks you disagree with. Very tempting indeed. But not very productive.

Millions of people voted yesterday; millions of men and women, of many ages and from countless backgrounds. Each of them had a very hard decision to make, and while there's little doubt a good few did fall into the stereotypes, it's just as clear those didn't apply in a solid number of cases.

ArtOfCode

Josh Heyer for president 2020

4

Helka Homba

@Kaz For the record, black men were allowed to vote 50 years before any women in the US. (15th amendment vs 19th)

Shog9

We've already discussed the failings of a two-party system when it comes to representing the real views of the populace; unfortunately, that's what we've got for the time-being. Let's hope folks learn something twixt now and the next election...

ArtOfCode

The ultimate job in community management

Shog9

12:12 AM

It's selfish, but I was rather happy to see a good 3rd-party showing here in Colorado yesterday. I do believe it'll be remembered.

Zizouz212

Shog, I figured I'd just try to figure something out. For the presidency, do you have to win over entire states (which are themselves weighted)? Coming from Canada, it's a little confusing, where we just have simple ridings (and the PM has to win their own seat!)

Shog9

@Zizouz212 So... this is where you want to read up on

Electoral College (United States)

The United States Electoral College is the body that elects the President and Vice President of the United States every four years. Citizens of the United States do not directly elect the president or the vice president; instead they choose "electors", who usually pledge to vote for particular candidates. The number of electors in each state is equal to the number of members of Congress to which the state is entitled, while the Twenty-third Amendment grants the District of Columbia the same number of electors as the least populous state, which is currently three. Therefore, there are currently...

Kaz

@Zizouz212 Each state sets their own rules, but almost all are winner-takes all. There are 438 votes apportioned to the states based on the size of their population, and then each state gets an additional 2 votes each.

El'endia Starman

@Kaz IIRC there are two that split their electors proportionally.

Helka Homba

@Zizouz212 You have to win over half of the 538 electoral college votes. Each state's amount depends on population. Most are winner take all.

Nebraska and...

Zizouz212

12:15 AM

But all the "electors" seem to vote for the opinion of the popular vote in that state?

Rand al'Thor

In this particular election, I believe the candidate with the most actual votes wasn't the one who won?

Zizouz212

@Randal'Thor Clinton leads in the popular vote

Kaz

@Zizouz212 It's up to the states to choose the electors and tell them how to vote.

Helka Homba

@Kaz oh, cant read

Rand al'Thor

@Zizouz212 Yep. Because she got more city voters while Trump claimed rural areas with fewer people.

Shog9

12:18 AM

Keeping in mind that the Federal government originally had much less power than it does today, the system has a few (some would say vestigial) properties intended to preserve the autonomy and influence of individual states - or if you prefer, to prevent more populous states from having too much influence.

Zizouz212

@Kaz But in general, whoever gets the most votes in that state will get that electoral vote (except Maine and Nebraska, as I'm reading)

Kaz

If the system had a voice it would be "Whoever wins the popular vote is president, except that if it's really close, I'll choose the candidate who appeals to the broadest number of states, as opposed to the one who wins a few large cities and ignores the rest of America."

HDE 226868

@ArtOfCode Checking the records, Undo actually started the 2016 one on September 27.

Zizouz212

@Kaz I'm not sure I completely understand...

Kaz

@Zizouz212 There is a slight bias towards small states in the electoral college.

Wyoming gets 1 vote for the population.

But 3 overall, because every state gets 2.

California gets 53 for population, but 55 overall.

Helka Homba

12:24 AM

I'd be ok with it if it weren't winner take all in nearly every state.

Kaz

This means that, in effect, every voter in wyoming is worth 3x the electoral college votes of a voter in california

Zizouz212

Yeah, but a candidate has to win the popular vote within that state to get all electoral votes?

Kaz

Which means if you win 60 million votes in big, concentrated, urban, coastal centres. And the other candidate wins 60 million votes across a wide swath of America, the latter will get a slight preference in the electoral college result.

Shog9

@Zizouz212 consider that in California, far more people voted for Trump yesterday than the entire population of Vermont. Vermont would essentially not have a voice in the election. If you consider that a President can and does make decisions that disproportionately affect these states, putting most of the voting power into population centers has the potential to really screw over everyone else.

Kaz

@Zizouz212 Within a state, in most states, yes.

But that's the states' decisions.

They get the electoral college votes. It's up to them how they want to assign them.

Zizouz212

12:26 AM

Wow. That's sounds... overly complicated.

Shog9

In practice, candidates try to campaign everywhere. How much of what they do is actually influenced by smaller states is... very debatable, but the idea that they have to be at least somewhat accountable is still alive and well.

Kaz

@Zizouz212 It was put in place 200 years ago. They had different constraints.

Shog9

@Zizouz212 wait'll you get into the crazy that is the primary system...

Zizouz212

Every time I see the American political system, it feels very strange. Primaries to select candidates in the two parties, then a massive election, where you vote for the house rep, senator, president, and other random stuff too

I'm probably completely wrong, aren't I?

Shog9

@Zizouz212 well, to be fair, we vote on those things even when we're not voting for a president.

They just happen to align every 4 years.

Zizouz212

12:29 AM

And that's on the ballot?

feersum

And in some states, the primary is the election that actually matters...

Shog9

(and also... not align. Terms for house, senate, and schedules for other voting are determined by other things)

Kaz

@Zizouz212 You've got the general idea right. It's a big country. Governing it is not simple.

Many US States would be first-world countries in their own right.

Shog9

One of the other things that made me happy yesterday was that Colorado voted to implement voting for the primaries (and open it up to unaffiliated voters). Up to now, they've been decided by caucus, and you had to be a member of the party to even participate.

Zizouz212

Canada - one ballot for your local Member of Parliament. Whichever political party that gets the most votes gets to be PM. Sounds so simple compared to the US :P

Shog9

12:31 AM

how's Quebec liking it these days?

feersum

Are there only 2 parties with MPs in Canada?

Kaz

@Zizouz212 As a stand-alone country. California by itself would be the same size as Canada.

Zizouz212

@feersum Oh no. There can be unlimited political parties (though the main ones are Conservative, right-wing, Liberal (currently in power) - centre-left, and the NDP, which are more left-wing)

feersum

So when no one party has a majority of MPs, fun stuff happens, right?

Rand al'Thor

@feersum A coalition, I assume. Like there was in Britain a few years back.

Zizouz212

12:33 AM

@feersum Minority government - the leader of the party with the most seats is PM, choose cabinet minister and so on, but stuff rarely gets done

Rand al'Thor

(Quite a few years now. How time flies.)

feersum

Oh so it uses the plurality rather than coalition?

Zizouz212

Sometimes, they get a new election. Sometimes, they just deal with it. Last provincial election in ontario transformed the minority to a majority, cause the opposition disagreed with the budget, which means that there's no confidence in the house, which forces an election :P

And to think that I want to go into the public sector and deal with politics...

feersum

Seems plenty complicated and confusing to me ;)

Zizouz212

@feersum All you vote for is the Member of Parliament to represent your riding (which is often an area with under 200k people). They're often affiliated with a political party, but don't have to be

@Shog9 They're umm... kind of liking it? They're equally divided in all 4 parties

Shog9

12:39 AM

Heh.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

12:57 AM

PSA: Impeachment can only happen if a candidate commits a crime - it is not something can just "do".

quartata

Impeachment is just charging

Rand al'Thor

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC Commits a crime while in office? Or can they be impeached for previous unpunished crimes?

quartata

@Randal'Thor They can impeached for accusations of previous crimes

It's very unlikely Trump will be impeached, since it requires going through both the House and Senate and both will probably be end up fairly gridlocked

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

PSA: While Congress may hold the right to declare war, the president has the exclusive right to launch nuclear weapons.

quartata

Also requires confirmation from the Secretary of Defense

Rand al'Thor

1:03 AM

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC Correct.

199

A: Does the President of the United States have the ability to deploy nuclear weapons at will?

According to retired Lt. General Mark Hertling, who personally participated in such drills, and wrote Nuclear Codes: The President's Awesome Power That bag -- carried by the military aide -- has been within feet of the commander in chief ever since for any situation where the president believ...

quartata

But you're right in that it can't be vetoed

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@quartata Not authorization, confirmation.

quartata

Yes.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

And the president appoints the guy.

@quartata Honestly a RSA signature is more effective.

quartata

Depends on how you use it.

Mazura

1:19 AM

I live in a non-swing state, so I feel as if my vote doesn't matter, but the really disappointing part is that if there wasn't an EC, it still wouldn't have mattered, but I would've got my desired outcome (twice now). How do I register to vote in Ohio? ;p

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

1:36 AM

How is "Daesh" an acronym?

Mazura

It's Arabic.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

1:57 AM

@Mazura Wouldn't it be DAESH?

Geobits

Do you consistently capitalize radar or scuba?

feersum

Daesh is two letters.

It's like calling the site Peepeeceegee.

Mazura

"Robert Bringhurst’s The Elements of Typographic Style, dictates that if an acronym is pronounced as a word, then it should not be written in all caps. (As opposed to initialisms, which are pronounced as a series of letters. Compare Nato to USA.)" –scratchtap.com - It depends, as always, on whose MOS you're using.

feersum

In the US both are capitalized in most cases.

zaq

2:20 AM

@Mazura This is the first time ever that I see "Nato" not in all caps. Indeed, the site nato.int consistently has it in all caps.

Mazura

3:30 AM

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC It's more like a neologism. Never to my recollection having heard the word, this was enlightening.

Masked Man

If news reports are to be believed (!?), "thousands" of Americans have taken to streets to protest against "not my President" Trump.

Mazura

6k in downtown Chicago this evening, so they said.

Masked Man

It kinda reminds me of a statement Trump made a couple of weeks ago: "I will accept the election results ... (long pause) ... if I win."

edition.cnn.com/2016/10/20/politics/…

Mazura

It didn't look like 6k but by the time I saw it, it was dinner time.

Mazura

3:59 AM

What I don't get is the mindset of anyone who was ever undecided. Trump could've been running against a cat, and I would've voted for the cat solely for the fact that the cat would've been a Democrat. Do the people in swing states actually swing themselves, or does it simply come down to the number of people they can get to go vote?

user132126

4:56 AM

Not choosing either isn't undecided. It's deciding on neither.

Mazura

Considering the fact that I didn't vote, I'm one to talk. But that's unacceptable. It is going to be one or the other, why not choose the lesser evil?

Mazura

5:15 AM

I suppose my attitude is lackadaisical but if I thought for one second that Illinois wouldn't vote Demo (as it has for the last 6 elections) I would've (or if there was no EC). I should prob go see how close it was tho. The Chicagoland area was an island in a sea of red, statewide, nestled inside an ocean of red, nationwide...

Magisch

8:40 AM

@Shog9 I feel like this is what ultimately cost hillary the presidency. The "basket of deplorables" comments, the PC outrage. Painting half of your country as literal monsters and trying to shame them into falling in line never worked, it didn't work now, it didn't work for brexit, it doesn't work for the supporters of the emerging new right in europe.

Combine that with the fact that clinton is pretty much everything people hate about the establishment, add the obvious rigging of the primary that came out and dominated the minds of disenfranchised liberal voters for months, add the super shady CTR super PAC that spurred conspiracy theories for millions and completly poisoned rational discussion and ... yeah

This entire thing was a perfect storm of adverse factors so strong that the establishment's chosen leader lost against an orange reality TV star.

Magisch

8:57 AM

What really worries me though is his stance on climate change. Today, more then ever, we would need america to stop with the fracking and go serious on renewable energy, like all-out. We'd need the entire world today to do that, and even then catastrophic consequences of climate change could no longer be avoided, only lessened. Now trump is poised to undo decades of hard-fought environmental regulations just because of his notion that it's all a chinese hoax.

Kaz

9:08 AM

@Mazura Appreciate this: There's a large fraction of your countrymen that feel exactly the same way about Hillary Clinton.

@Magisch Just as an aside: I don't think "Tackling climate change" is actually going to stop climate change. Asking people to deliberately impoverish themselves for some nebulous, off-in-the-far-future benefit just isn't going to hold. The way to stop climate change is to make renewable energy and electric cars cheaper and better than fossil fuels. As soon as it's cheaper, the world will go green almost overnight.

Magisch

@Kaz Its not going to stop it no

But if we were serious about preserving the future for the generations to come (or at least making it not as horrible as it inevitably will be) then we'd all have to take some pretty substantial cuts to our standard of living right about now.

Just new tech isn't going to cut it. we in the world would have to cut our emissions by 70-80% overnight, and maintain them at that low level

Kaz

@Magisch Or, we could do something that the majority of the world might actually go along with.

Magisch

Except climate change doesn't bend to our will

It's either accepting what we need to change or accepting the consequences, and I'd argue the consequences are unacceptable for anyone that knows them.

Kaz

@Magisch And neither do the people at large. As was so aptly demonstrated.

Magisch

I know, thats what worries me most about this election

We've gone backwards in a time where we really needed an overwhelming global consensus to make hard and painful cuts everywhere

Kaz

9:15 AM

So, do we keep trying to do "The right thing" or do we maybe try "Some things that might actually work"

Magisch

Half measures aren't going to cut it

Kaz

@Magisch Converting the whole world to renewable energy and electric cars isn't a half measure.

Magisch

It is by what reality says we need

electric cars across the globe tomorrow would not make a blind bit of difference

We don't need to slowly cut emissions, they'd need to be down 80% 5 years ago to make a dent

Kaz

@Magisch Renewable energy would.

Magisch

we neither posess ressources nor technology to scale that on a global level

as of right now our only hope is to cut energy consumption radically

Kaz

9:18 AM

@Magisch And ten years ago, everyone said renewable rockets were a pipe dream.

@Magisch In what world is that ever going to happen?

Magisch

Not in ours

And that spells doom for some of our future generations

Mew

GO TRUMP

Magisch

Humans won't go extinct, but they'll hate our guts for making their lives so miserable.

And now the world's largest super power has elected a man who doesn't believe in climate change and has a plan to default-abolish all environmental standards and pull out of all agreements as new leader.

Kaz

@Magisch I never thought those agreements would solve the actual problem, so I'm kinda ambiavalent about that.

Magisch

Even by your standards

adoption of renewable energy will take a massive hit

cheap shale oil will eclipse it and trump is poised to unleash all of it and do away with any regulation to stop it

By the time oil goes scarce enough to make renewable energies competitive it will already be too late.

Kaz

9:24 AM

@Magisch Right now, Solar is 20% more expensive than coal (Per MWH). 5 years ago, it was 5x as expensive.

IT's basically as-cheap if not cheaper right now.

Magisch

@Kaz Yet, there are diminishing returns

Kaz

The main problem is actually not cost-of-electricity anymore, it's storage.

Magisch

If you don't factor in environmental cost (that shale oil companies don't pay largely) then shale oil is still significantly cheaper then any of that

Kaz

@Magisch Not at the current oil price.

Magisch

@Kaz storage factors into the cost directly

Kaz

9:26 AM

@Magisch Storage is also getting exponentially cheaper.

Magisch

@Kaz Lets hope then that it happens fast enough to save some of our habitat from what we're doing to it

Because right now, it's not looking good.

A substantial amount of scientists also already called it, meaning that we're 20 years to late to put a substantial dent into any of the runaway effects we started, by whatever means we choose.

Kaz

@Magisch Well, if we're screwed anyway, we might as well go for technological development and hope we find some ways to deal with it.

Mew

9:47 AM

When is the wall being built?

Magisch

Never unless trump wants to start a war with mexico over it

Kaz

@Magisch The wall is going to be built (What nation doesn't secure their borders?). Whether and how he'll get Mexico to pay for it will be interesting.

Mew

But that's why I voted for Trump

Mexico wouldn't go to war with USA would they?

They would be crushed

Kaz

@Mew Not a chance in hell.

Magisch

@Kaz Other then threatening to destroy it ... how?

Also, the wall is not being built

Thats logistically almost impossible and will violate several international treaties.

Kaz

9:50 AM

@Magisch America controls the global flow of money. Among other things.

Magisch

They'd also have to seize millions of acres of privately held land in america to do it

Mew

@Magisch, wrong

Kaz

@Magisch Since when is a properly secured border crossing against international treaties?

Mew

they can use Mexico's land

Magisch

to top that, it will do absolutely nothing to stop illegal immigration

Kaz

9:51 AM

@Magisch There, we might be in agreement.

Magisch

@Kaz Obstructing a river is

Fatalize

@Kaz Ever heard of the EU?

Magisch

There are also lots of native american ancient burial sites near the border

which are, again, protected by international treaties

Mew

Trump doesn't care tho

He is the leader of the USA, they are above international treaties

Kaz

@Fatalize You mean Schengen, the idea that internal borders should be open but external borders should be secured? In an area the same size as the US?

Magisch

9:52 AM

America can do a lot, but even america isn't immune to getting shunned by the international community

I doubt that even trump would be so insane as to risk the US world standing over a silly border fence

Fatalize

@Kaz Except that that's still borders between countries, not states

Mew

So why did he promise he would build a wall?

Wht a liah

I want my vote back

Magisch

everybody lies

95% of what he said were outright lies

thats a conservative estimate

Kaz

I think you're all underestimating the power that Trump now wields. Realpolitik is about to make a comeback in a huge way.

Magisch

@Mew To get elected, of course. Why else?

Mew

9:53 AM

true

What is realpolitik

Magisch

@Kaz I think you're overestimating the rest of the world's willingness to put up with his crap

Mew

@Magisch, Russia supports trump

Russia and USA together would have a lot of power indeed

Magisch

In the age of china and india becoming superpowers of their own the US is not the be-all and end-all.

Kaz

@Mew The idea that international politics is decided by power, not by ideology or ethics.

Russia seizing Crimea and the rest of the world letting them keep it: That's realpolitik in action.

Mew

I see

Magisch

9:55 AM

Both the US and russia are suffering the slow but always inevitable decay of old empires

they'll be irrelevant in a few years

Mew

ARe you serious/

the USA and Russia will not be irrelevant

Fatalize

Russia would already be irrelevant if they didn't have gas and oil

Mew

the USA is the world's largest economy based on PPP

Magisch

Ask the UK that

"The eternal british empire"

No king rules forever

Fatalize

(and nuclear warheads)

Mew

9:56 AM

YEs but the USA will rule for far more than a few more years

Especially if trump uses the power of the USA

Magisch

The US has so much debt to china china basicly owns the place

Kaz

@Magisch No, but they didn't become irrelevant overnight. It took several decades and a couple of world wars.

Mew

Debt is imaginary

The USA don't have to pay back their debt

Magisch

make no mistake you can bluster all you want with the millitary in the end the us will yield to the new superpowers either by choice or force.

Kaz

@Magisch They really don't. Maybe 20%. And what's the worst they can do? Sell it?

Mew

9:57 AM

and CHina depends on the USA's success if they ever want that debt repaid

Magisch

@Kaz Kick the US economy into a devastating economic downturn at will.

Kaz

@Magisch Which is also why you *don't* see Trump getting in a spat with Russuia

Magisch

The sun is setting on the west in general

Mew

No way

The West are still far more developed than the East

Magisch

It's not particularly quick by any means but the power of the west is fading inevitably.

Mew

9:58 AM

The East is only doing well by copying the habits of the WEst

Magisch

Nah

Mew

China' success ceoms from freeing up their market

Magisch

the only reason the west ever became relevant is because we had a critical ressource concentration (coal and iron, mainly) for the industrialization to occur

Mew

When China becomes as rich in GDP per capita as the USA, they will pretty much have the same culture as the USA by then

Magisch

communism isn't a chinese invention

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