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9:16 AM
Hiya
 
tux can u halp
 
Yep
 
What's a good symbol for "factorial"?
 
@Qwerp-Derp !
 
9:18 AM
!
ninja'd
 
@betseg Gimme the code you use to read the input
 
But what's a good symbol for "NOT" then?
I need them both
to be different
 
If you don't read until EOF it's normal than it segfault
 
@Qwerp-Derp ~
 
9:19 AM
Ooh nice
 
Ninja'd
 
What operators do I need for a maths-based language?
I'm thinking of making an expansion to Oasis
 
+-*/%!
 
+, -, /, *
 
Other than +-*/?
 
9:20 AM
** or ^ for exponentiation
 
Got that
Even got tetration and beyond
 
Ceil and floor
 
Ooh yeah
 
@betseg If EOF is read, it will try to read another character (Because EOF is not an alphabetic character), and so it will segfault
 
@Qwerp-Derp %
 
9:20 AM
Got that
 
byte shifting
 
got that
I've even got sum
 
Fetching gem metadata from rubygems.org.............
Fetching version metadata from rubygems.org.
Resolving dependencies...
Using bundler 1.13.2
Gem::RemoteFetcher::FetchError: SSL_connect returned=1 errno=0 state=SSLv3 read
server certificate B: certificate verify failed
(rubygems.org/gems/ruby-fann-1.2.6.gem)
An error occurred while installing ruby-fann (1.2.6), and Bundler
cannot continue.
Make sure that `gem install ruby-fann -v '1.2.6'` succeeds before bundling.
 
Rubygem.org certificat is borked confirmed
 
9:23 AM
92 symbols currently
 
@TuxCopter halp how to not read EOF
 
What is the language called?
 
Return EOF if the character returned by getchar is EOF
 
Don't really have a name yet
It's currently just an idea
 
oooh i got it
 
9:24 AM
Is there a GitHub repository?
 
Nope
 
@TuxCopter will return c == EOF ? : isalpha(c) ? c : getinput(); work
 
IDK
return c == EOF ? EOF : isalpha(c) ? c : getinput();
 
yup it does, but it doesnt terminate...
hmm
 
Should I have ∈ for in?
So something like if x in y = x ∈ y
 
9:26 AM
while(a != EOF && b != EOF) { but doesnt terminate if input is EOF
 
Good idea to use the "belongs to" symbol
 
9:43 AM
@betseg add if (feof(stdin)) return EOF; at the start of getinput
 
I made a useless machine in minecraft
 
pics plz
 
it makes stone block, then immediately destroys it
 
How do you destroy it?
 
9:46 AM
Ahk
 
originally it was going to be an elevator or something
also I found something cool
to do with slime
 
What cool thing?
 
@TuxCopter thx
 
np
 
pistons pushing slime makes someone on the slime bounce a fair amount
 
9:51 AM
Ah yes this is actually a purpose of the slime blocks
@DestructibleWatermelon You want to play some (1.10) survival?
 
@TuxCopter not from a height
 
helkahomba.mcserver.ws
 
from standing on it, and having it be pushed
also I'm already here
 
make a golfing language in Minecraft
 
9:57 AM
why not?
 
because
what does that even mean
 
what should i call my new lang :P
 
I made a 'programming language' in SHENZHEN I/O
 
10:13 AM
what is shenzhen io
 
A game
If I add looping I essentially created boolfuck in SHENZHEN I/O
Now I have a problem: I can't access the memory from the interpreter chip yay
And the memory chip is full
 
Wait how big is SHENZHEN I/O
 
Big
 
@DestructibleWatermelon Make a prime checker in MC?
 
Ok found a workaround, but the skip if not zero also advance the pointer
 
10:25 AM
wait why can i not offer 50 rep for a bounty
i can only offer 100
 
Fine, the skip if not zero instruction is nondeterministic
It randomly advance or not the memory pointer
Probably because the memory chip is creating a data race :/
 
@TuxCopter Is it possible to make a prime checker in SZIO?
It's going to be called SZIO from now on
 
Yep
Definitively possible
Creating a modulo is easy (Fit in a MC6000)
So trivial division shouldn't be hard
Wait I found a workaround for the SKNZ
NVM
OMGYES it work
 
0
A: List of bounties with no deadlines

Qwerp-Derp2 * 100 bounty: Minecraft prime checker What it says on the tin. I offer 100 reputation to whoever can make a valid prime checker using: levers as input (ON = 1, OFF = 0), representing a binary number redstone lamp as output (ON = prime, OFF = not prime) I offer another 100 reputation if th...

 
The name's Ken,
Chic Ken
 
10:39 AM
It have a skip instruction, a skip if not zero and an inconditional jump instruction
I think it's TC
And now it have a jump if not zero
The thing have 33 'bytes' of ROM, 33 of RAM, and is probably TC
in SHENZHEN I/O
 
11:18 AM
:3
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

PureferretPokemon Type chart (and dual type chart) I'm always forgetting Pokemon type matchups. This is a challenge to print the pokemon type chart! As a bonus you also have to print the dual type chart. You can print the table in any format you like so long as it's 2D, and lists all of the types, on bot...

 
Does it make my language noncompeting if I push a commit that makes it use less memory?
 
Since it don't change the language's features I think it's still ok
 
12:05 PM
Hey?
 
Allo!
 
Amazing talk: madebygoogle
 
1:19 PM
Guys, can we stop randomly butchering popcons? The showcase is on-topic (per the latest discussions on this stuff) because human evaluation/subjectivity is not required to determine if an answer is valid (not counting the factoid)
10
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

milesSelf-Host a Language Your task is to write a program in your language that outputs a program that supports a minimal subset of that language for use. That minimal subset is based on our definition of a programming language. This means that the program you generate must support input and output. ...

0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Flp.Tkc[WIP] Translate Baby-talk! When babies open their mouths, they're not just spewing gibberish. They're actually talking in a highly advanced, adult-proof cipher... The Baby-talk Cipher When a baby talks, it may look something like gogooa gagooook aagaaoooy Each string-seperated section represen...

 
Compare that to Mona Lisa where a human is required to determine if a image looks like the Mona Lisa
I'll write up an answer later but the fact that I even have to makes me pretty upset. One minute everyone's like "we should keep popcons" and the next they're tripping over themselves to lynch one of the best popcons we've had
I was all for lynching bad popcons but we seem to finding excuses to get rid of them all even though that isn't what we agreed on
</rant>
 
@quartata "Make a pretty picture on the screen" also does not require subjectivity to determine if the answer is valid.
Does your screen have pixels on it? It's valid!
 
"make a pretty picture"
> pretty
Yes it does. You just said so.
 
1:35 PM
That was intended as shorthand for make a picture that's as pretty as possibel, and upvote the prettiest ones.
 
If a specification isn't intended to be followed to the letter then we have bigger problems
 
That was the challenge title, not the spec! :P
 
@feersum Right. Per our rules on validity if an answer makes no attempt to be pretty it's invalid
Which means it's subjective
 
A no-effort answer can be done for any question.
 
And for most questions we can deem them invalid more or less objectively. In the case of code golf humans are pretty good at counting whitespace and comparing standard deviation of the byte count although we don't think of it that way
 
1:39 PM
I think the confusing/decisive part is where to draw the line between a "requirement" and a "goal." For example: a challenge with the "requirement" that the code output a pretty image is subjective. On the other hand, you could make a challenge with the "requirement" to output an image, with the "goal" of making it as pretty as possible.
 
Please inform me what makes the showcase different while I write a script that verifies a showcase answer
@PhiNotPi If that's the problem then ask Helka instead of beating up on his challenge without even letting him know
 
And so... I think one core issue is that we typically require an answer to attempt the goal.
@quartata This isn't personal at all. I don't think Helka has done anything wrong.
 
I know it's not I'm just a bad mood because I don't like rules lawyering. Sorry
The bottom line is the only thing required to determine if an answer achieve's the showcase's "goal" is does number of snippets == votes and are they of the correct length.
For Tweetable Art and all these other popcons you mentioned there's some aspect of subjectivity involved in verifying the goal. Not here
The reason why it's worth looking at it from this perspective is that the main real problem with popcons was bad invalid cheaty answers
 
Now you seem to be using the old argument that popularity contests are objective because see, the number of votes is quantitative and no one can dispute it.
 
We don't have to worry about that with the showcase because of this unlike the other ones
@feersum The reason why we enforced all this on popcon was because we were concerned with site quality from poor questions and poor answers.
 
1:48 PM
I feel like it's somewhat difficult to say that "write snippets worth showcasing" isn't part of the goal of the challenge.
 
The showcase's objective validity means that it won't suffer from this. Mona Lisa's subjective validity means that it would and did
@PhiNotPi Ah, but that's more just wording. At its core there's nothing stopping the showcase from being objective while these other popcons had very subjective goals that were inherent in the spec
Again, ask Helka. He's a very good challenge writer and if there are any wording issues that stop what I'm arguing from holding true he'll fix them
 
Nothing stopping it from being objective? Other than the broadest goal imaginable?
 
That is a whole other can of worms. We're talking about it being off topic not too broad
Two completely separate close reasons.
 
Do you think "draw a picture that's as pretty as possible" should be allowed?
 
@feersum You keep coming back to this which tells me you're either not understanding my argument or not really caring. Please tell me whether it's the former or the latter before I explain why these are very different for the third time
 
1:56 PM
...also I should mention that I'm okay with leaving the Showcase open, if I can put a finger on what exactly makes it a better pop-con than others. My meta post has perhaps painted me as having a much more inflexible stance than I really do.
 
@quartata No, I'm not able to follow your argument.
 
@feersum Do you recall the paint Mona Lisa challenge from a while back?
If you can see deleted questions there is a link in Phi's post
 
Not that clearly... link?
 
I can't link it on my tablet (which is why I'm typing super slow also). Check Phi's post.
 
2:00 PM
404
 
I think that one's goal is narrow enough to be acceptable.
 
@quartata Maybe here's a useful question.... let's take the Math Art challenge. What changes to the spec would you make so that it would be on topic?
 
@PhiNotPi None. It's subjective because it's asking for art.
@feersum Sure but let's look past that for a second.
 
@quartata I mean... you're allowed to make any changes to the spec, even ones that make it not ask for art anymore.
 
Per our rules on invalid answers what would you say are the criteria that would qualify an answer for deletion specific to the Mona Lisa challenge?
@feersum
 
2:03 PM
I don't see how where we draw the line on someone's effort being too minimal is important for this discussion.
 
But that's the whole reason we don't like popcons or code trolling or underhanded!
If we can't objectively draw that line we can't enforce site quality.
 
@quartata I wrote an answer as I think it's important to have a debate about this. I really didn't mean to upset anyone and it hurts to see that I have. I really don't want to see popularity contests off topic. I think this one is off topic based on our current scope (which is a separate question from whether it should be). I think a lot of different problems are tangled together here, and have been for a long time. Although untangling them will be painful I think it's worth it.
 
Let's say the challenge were "Tweetable Image" and the spec were "make three functions, for RGB, each under 140 bytes" without anything to imply that answers were required to look artsy. Would you consider that on-topic?
 
That's the problem: we've all lost sight of why we wanted objectivity
@PhiNotPi That would still be a gray area I think. The showcase is unique in that the contents of the snippets aren't what's being "judged" necessarily. But here in order to determine minimum effort we'd still have to look inside the functions
Anyways back on topic. Just to reaffirm my point here were the criteria I had in mind for Mona Lisa
 
Code-trolling/underhanded became unwelcome because they made the site look bad and because they were basically all duplicates of each other.
Trigraphs, unicode homographs, and code in the right-hand margin were the answers for every question.
It became uninteresting quickly.
 
2:09 PM
@feersum Yes. It wasn't the questions that were the big deal though -we could handle them with our broadness/duplicate criteria. It was those answers.
Even if the answers were outright cheating we couldn't do jack shit. Validity was subjective.
 
If we had only one code-trolling question, I doubt it would be a problem.
 
To illustrate what I mean here's the criteria
 
Perhaps what makes the Showcase different, is that (1) the "requirements" were laid out as clearly separate from anything subjective, with nothing implying that an answer must be interesting to be valid. (2) In some sense, there are two "goals" to the challenge: add as many snippets as you can (objective) and add snippets worth showcasing (subjective).
 
- Under the byte limit
- Doesn't vioate any site meta rules
- Looks marginally close to the Mona Lisa
We all agree on this right?
 
Personally I think with that type of image output challenge the "looks close to the target" shouldn't be a validity criterion (like the objective of a golf challenge) but part of what constitutes sufficient effort (like the requirement to at least try to golf in a golf challenge)
 
2:14 PM
They are one and the same per our rules for invalidity.
 
The fact that you can't objectively say whether an image looks "similar enough" is like the fact that you can't say objectively whether a golf is "golfed enough"
 
yes
 
Sure you can. Whitespace, longer than one byte identifiers...?
 
eyes, nose...
 
@quartata I think that's somewhat an issue, actually, because it very much blends the distinction between the "requirements" and the "goals" of a challenge, since it leads to any challenge with (only) a subjective goal, also have a subjective requirement (which is the implicit requirement to make effort towards the goal).
 
2:17 PM
But the only goal of the showcase is to make some snippets. Says nothing about if they're interesting.
 
And so I think perhaps one key part of the Showcase, is the fact that there's an objective component of the goal, which is to write X number of snippets.
 
do people use .bzip2, even when .bz2 is preferred?
 
That is we would not delete an answer with boring snippets.
 
@quartata You're arguing that it should be valid because it has no winning criterion whatsoever?
 
On that note following the same approach as for Mona Lisa here's what constitutes sufficient effort for the showcase
@feersum no
 
2:19 PM
So what's the winning criterion? Popcons are supposed to have a winning criterion on which users are expected to base their votes.
 
Golf works really well as a scoring method, because it's entirely separate from the purpose of the program. Validity: gives the correct output. Score: number of bytes. With judging an image, the score and the validity are measured the same way. I'd like to see it work, but it's always going to be messier than golf, and take more effort to design a good challenge
 
- Language meets our requirements for a programming language
- If the current score of the answer is n, then there must be n snippets of code in that language
- The snippets must be of length n where n in Z and 0 < n <= current score
- No two snippets can have the same length
 
Incidentally, I think a big part of the problem with code trolling falls under this:
11
A: Things to avoid when writing challenges

feersumNon-observable program requirements The validity of a program should depend on things that can be observed when the program is treated as a black box. Examples are data written to standard output or error streams, drawing on the screen, file operations, memory usage, and runtime. Non-observable ...

 
holy fuck why does my fog answer have 21 upvotes
it's not even stupid and I actually worked on it
 
Here the validity doesn't depend even on that! The contents of the snippet are completely irrelevant for validity. Now voters can vote based on it but they don't have to.
 
2:24 PM
That feels like a list of requirements for the challenge, not the goal. The goal would be more along the lines of "more snippets = better"
 
@quartata What's the winning criterion for Showcase?
 
That's my list of what constitutes sufficient effort.
@feersum Upvotes.
 
facepalm
 
And you'll never get rules on upvotes. People can vote however they like. If that's your issue then burinate the tag.
Bottom line: I see nothing wrong with a popcon that offers no room for bad answers. And both theoretically and empirically the showcase is that
Compared to other popcons few answers have been deleted by force. Most are self deletions just because of issues with the language's interpreter
 
Ideally we would have separate voting mechanisms for "this answer is well written" and "this answer should have a high score". Until then pop con is always going to be an odd compromise. However, it's a compromise I'm glad we have, even if it's hard to get right
 
2:29 PM
I suppose I have to write that answer now huh
need coffee urfh
 
From the tag wiki: "Things that MUST be included ... A clear specification of the goal that must be achieved."
Showcase has nothing for this.
 
@quartata Take your time. Even though I've written an opposing answer I want the best possible answer for the other side too. Otherwise there's more chance we'll have to keep revisiting whichever decision is made.
 
The goal is write snippets. It's almost overspecified in that regard
I have to ask @feersum - what precisely is your motivation for getting rid of the Showcase? I'd like to know what the specific issue is
@trichoplax Thanks <3
 
I don't care particularly whether it's open or closed, but I've been drawn into this argument on whether it fulfills the site scope.
 
All right.
 
2:34 PM
Concerning Helka Homba specifically: a lot of the challenges are deliberately pushing the boundaries of our scope, and finding ways in which it can be extended. This is a huge service to the community. Finding that some are off topic is a natural consequence of this exploration, and I don't see it as a bad thing.
 
My main motivation is that I love the answers on the showcase and I want the answerers on it to continue to benefit from their work on it. If the showcase is locked they won't get upvotes.
 
So our disagreement is that I think popularity contests are supposed to have a winning criterion/goal that voters are supposed to reward answers that do a good job achieving, and @quartata does not believe such a goal is necessary?
 
@quartata I would say 1. That's an emotional argument. 2. I share the emotion...
 
Just being honest :P
@feersum Voters will vote.You cannot control them. Period.
 
I must admit, I had a good think about whether I could twist the scope wording to make it on topic before I wrote my answer...
 
2:37 PM
@quartata Of course; the first answer will most likely get more votes than the best answer.
 
Tweetable mathematical art is a great example of that. The top answer was far from the most interesting and took far less effort than most
 
But there should be a somewhat narrow goal (other than votes themselves) that answers are trying to maximize.
That's an issue which applies to all questions.
 
Our goal should instead be to focus on making sure that popcon answers are of high quality. If bringing subjective criteria into the valifity mix prevents that then minimalist objective criteria are better. the showcase is unique in that it still works with that
 
I feel like any pop-con has an implicit "goal" of writing interesting answers, just as Math Art (regardless of whether there is any requirement to make it artsy) would have an implicit goal of making interesting image. And so... perhaps what makes the Showcase different is that it proposes an alternative goal which is objective (write as many snippets as possible) in addition to the implicit goal.
Although... I think there is ground to say that the current wording is explicit about wanting answers to be interesting. That may simply be a wording thing.
> All the snippets will be written in the same programming language and attempt to showcase its obscure or interesting features.
 
@feersum In any other case I'd agree -- most popcons need that sort of goal I might not be doing the best job of articulating it but the showcase really doesn't seem to.
@PhiNotPi As I said earlier ask Helka. That is mostly wording
Really we need Helka's input before we do stuff like that
@trichoplax If you could move this conversation to a new room and superping Helka in there that would be nice
 
2:41 PM
So you want to keep it because the answers so fare seem to have OK quality. On the other hand, it sets a bad example for new users who think that "make the coolest thing" is an acceptable question.
 
Oh, is it popcon discussion time again? Early this season...
 
@mınxomaτ break out your popcorn machine
 
@feersum I want to krep it because compared to the tons of other issues popcons have the showcase up until this point has been trotting along without issue for 2 years.
Something is very obviously different.
 
@quartata Helka's pingable in here if you want to. I'm loathe to move this to another room as it's a conversation that seems very relevant to the whole community (and there isn't any other conversation that it seems to be conflicting with). You could bookmark it once it's finished if you want people to be able to find it easily
 
As for setting an example any challenge could do that.
@trichoplax That's a good point.
 
2:43 PM
@HelkaHomba get in here, we're discussing the Language Showcase and want your input
 
@HelkaHomba I summon thee
defend thy honor
 
One canst not summon the gods. They will appear in their own time
 
@mınxomaτ It's a long read but please read the transcript before jumping in or commenting
 
So perhaps the real reason we need rules on popcons is because most people write shitty questions, and we want to have a rule-based reason for closing them.
 
@quartata Oh I gave up on discussing anything site scope related long ago.
 
2:47 PM
@feersum Looking at it from that perspective what I've proposed is a very good way of separating them.
 
What did you propose?
 
If we can determine an answer is of sufficient effort with no/minimal subjectivity then it's OK
 
Now that we've summoned Helka, we should probably mark the beginning of the conversation:
1 hour ago, by quartata
Guys, can we stop randomly butchering popcons? The showcase is on-topic (per the latest discussions on this stuff) because human evaluation/subjectivity is not required to determine if an answer is valid (not counting the factoid)
 
If I could find some other popcons it might help to demonstrate this empirically
 
And the related meta question:
5
Q: Proposal to lock the Language Showcase as historically significant

PhiNotPiI recently revisited the following classic challenge: Showcase your language one vote at a time. The gist of the challenge is as follows: An answer is a set of program snippets, each with a unique length. The maximum length and maximum number of snippets are given by the answer's current vote ...

 
2:49 PM
Eh, I'm still not buying this stuff about minimal effort answers being important.
I see as high-quality questions are more likely to bring high-quality answers.
 
How can you tell if a question is high quality if you have no way to tell if its answers are high quality without getting into a fistfight
 
I don't know if it's related to all this pop con discussion, but thanks to whoever upvoted one of my old pop con answers on main :)
 
Wasn't me.
probably just a spooky halloween coincidence
 
@quartata I like the showcase, I really do, but it is too broad for our scope. Interesting or useful does not imply on topic.
 
3:02 PM
Regarding alternatives to the Showcase as it is, might it be possible to set up language-specific showcases, like how we have questions for specific languages?
 
@El'endiaStarman Disadvantage of that is that by them being separate, less popular languages will get fewer views overall
 
I'm not convinced we need a separate showcase at all. PPCG itself is a showcase. If you're intrigued by a language, you can always search for answers that use it.
 
@Dennis That doesn't provide you with a way to see the best/most interesting answers. The Mathematica showcase demonstrates the language far better than a search for Mathematica-language answers would.
 
could someone reload my chat avatar?
 
@El'endiaStarman I did half joke yesterday about just tagging the existing showcase
@muddyfish Done but I don't see a difference
 
3:12 PM
@Dennis We're not talking too broad at least right now.
 
@trichoplax I tried animating it (i.stack.imgur.com/6kvay.gif)
I didn't know we could use gifs
 
@muddyfish That looks great but I don't think gifs animate once they're in an avatar
 
@quartata The two go hand in hand. If a challenge is closed, the specific reason is just semantics.
 
More to the point if our rules are going to lead to us getting rid of a wildly successful popcon with almost no issues until now then we need to change our rules because they suck. They're not helping us eliminate bad questions they're just causing fights
 
lol @ +7/-5 vote score on my meta question. I guess that's what I get for posting such a controversial opinion.
 
3:14 PM
They did on mobile chat at least - thats how I noticed they worked
 
That's the core of the matter. The rest is just how you look at it
 
@trichoplax They do on the profile page, but not elsewhere. At least on main. I hope the same is true for chat.
 
@PhiNotPi Shows it needs discussing then...
 
@Dennis they definitely animate on mobile chat
 
@Dennis I checked main and it seems to just show a still frame there too. Is the a particular way of changing it that makes it pick up the animation?
Maybe it's just me. I don't see animation on mobile either
 
3:18 PM
The goal of the popcon discussions was to preserve site quality on account of all the bad popcon questions and answers that got upvoted into oblivion. On the other hand there's almost universal agreement that the showcase rocks. There should be no "unfortunate victims" -- that just means we're doing something wrong
And I think the showcase definitely fits into what we'd like the scope to be
So now we just need to figure out how to make it happen
 
Solution: Users with <2000 rep aren't allowed to post questions :P
 
@trichoplax Looks like it's a desktop vs mobile thing. This profile has an animating pic on my phone, but not on my desktop.
 
That was easy lol
 
@Dennis that was the profile I noticed animating
If it gets resized, it stops animating
 
Ah - that one animates for me (only on mobile). I'm not sure why @muddyfish's isn't
 
3:23 PM
@quartata Tailoring our rules around the premise that a specific challenge should remain open – especially if we'd close new challenges that are only vaguely similar – is hardly a good idea.
 
my new android boot animation
 
@trichoplax The animation is rather subtle.
 
@trichoplax It's quite subtle?
 
ninja'd
 
@Dennis I can see it in the direct link to the gif, but not on the profile
 
3:24 PM
maybe it's the size of image?
 
@Dennis That's why I've defined a class of popcons that I think the showcase falls into along with potential others
 
Maybe I just can't see it in the small size on the mobile screen.
 
@quartata ninja'd?
 
@feersum if that happened, I would have never joined this site. :P
 
More importantly, now I have to design an animated avatar
 
3:26 PM
I'm gonna have to take a break from this (2-hour-long?) discussion because I have real-world work to do. Anyways, if people do end up deciding to keep the Showcase open (as on-topic and not too broad), then ideally we will formulate a list of guidelines that are precise enough, so that we can apply them to all popcons to determine whether they should be opened or closed. The meta thread "guidelines on opening/closing popcons" never came close to creating what the title claims.
 
Also I'd like to mention that we have 0 consensus and therefore 0 rules on this. We can't agree on anything and I think that's because we've lost sight of what we want
 
That one I can already see on the profile on mobile.
 
I don't think there's any way to make rules that allow Showcase, while disallowing any else.
 
At this point most of the closed popcons are just people randomly closing. That's not really an issue because most of the popcons getting nuked were shit but now that this behavior is threatening a good popcon we need to do something
 
3:28 PM
You can't determine whether something is carefully thought out and well written with rules.
 
@feersum I am not proposing making an exception for any one thing.
 
@quartata TBH, the closure of the showcase is the logical conclusion of a lot of the previous action against popcons. It's one of the main reasons I made this meta thread: there's some very obvious dissonance/inconsistency in the community, and we need to iron it out.
 
I'm saying if we consistently apply rules, either all kinds of crap is allowed, or a few things that a lot of people like will be closed.
 
I've identified that the showcase is in a certain category of popcons that can't possibly cause site quality issues -- they have a minimalist objective goal and voting has no real strings attached. If others exist they are also good -- and the definition is rather general so I am sure others exist
 
Personally, I think that Zekka's answer to the Meta question of what we should do to attract more golfers is actually pretty relevant here. Particularly the portion under the bolded "I'm not going to listen to your suggestion until you engage in a semantics argument with me." point. If we're too stringent on rules and requirements, we run the risk of turning away valuable contributions and contributors.
 
3:33 PM
@quartata I find it bizarre that you think the total lack of a goal is a good thing.
Code that can do literally anything: you can't go broader than that.
 
But it works. Even if I can't convince you why you can't deny that there is a difference in the quality of the showcase vs other popcons and that's the obvious difference
I'm definitely approaching this from an "if it aint broke don't nuke it" perspective
Ultimately all that matters is site quality. These rules were designed to uphold that -- if they're hindering that something needs to change
 
Creativity under tight constraints is an important aspect.
The worst popcons don't have any constraints.
Tweetable Art is another one that people like, and has similar constraints.
 
The Mona Lisa popcon is bad and it has that
 
1KB is a rather loose constraint.
 
That's not the difference. If you can find something else that is the difference let me know. To me it is intuitively obvious why this goal is the difference but I understand that my brain is weird
 
3:38 PM
Also, Mona Lisa is not intended to be about creativity at all.
 
@feersum Still a tighter one than you might think considering the size of the image
 
It's about achieving a specific goal, just one that's not easily judged by algorithms.
It's the sort of thing that would be called "objective" in the field of law, but "subjective" by us programmers.
 
@quartata (I really should have left already, but...) what I think would really help your case here is a list of additional examples. Basically "hard evidence" that having "a minimalist objective goal and voting has no real strings attached" is what makes a pop-con good. Consider doing this as you write up your meta answer.
 
My comment about 1 KB was wrong/irrelevant.
It's just a totally different type of popcon.
 
@PhiNotPi That is what i am currently trying to do but I need to eat
 
3:41 PM
okay cool
 
How to open a PowerPoint file without buying Office?
 
We could have two tags, like for one with a narrow but difficult to automate judging goal, and for ones that are about wide-ranging creativity.
 
Hmm OK I've found one already. Lemme find some more before I post them
Ultimately though if we consider specifications as programs that take an answer and output whether it's valid this is pointless.
Rice's theorem
 
could someone update my avatar again? I think I got it working?
 
Your avatar is not changed (Forgot to click save?)
 
3:52 PM
probably
 
@PhiNotPi I'm not following the conversation but I think it's silly to close any question with say 100+ (or 200+) votes without overwhelming reason. That's like willfully destroying what makes our site great.
 
Make PPCG not great anymore!
 
If similar questions are no longer on topic just add a note that says so, but don't stop new answers.
 
@muddyfish I've refreshed your chat profile but I still can't see the animation on mobile. I can't zoom in without freezing it, and using a physical magnifying glass doesn't show up any movement either.
 
huh, how weird. That's what I saw
I an see animation on desktop but not mobile
 
3:59 PM
Oh. I thought animation only worked on mobile
 
no, the i.stack.imgur.com/u4UX8.gif page loads an animation on desktop but not mobile for me
 

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