8:00 PM
You can now vote on the election page.
5

maybe if I think of a wave as a ghost that displaces a medium perpendicularly to its motion (for transverse waves) every so often then yes it makes sense that the inertial property should slow the ghost down
but I don't know if I should do that :D so instead I think of a wave as a series of collisions that run through a medium in such a repeating fashion that we refer to them as waves.

@ACuriousMind Are you allowed to vote for yourself? :D

Ahhh I don't know whom to vote for

@Danu Yes. Voting for oneself is disallowed in primaries, but allowed in the election itself.

What are primaries?
Did we skip them?

8:02 PM
@ACuriousMind convince me you won't ban me if elected

@0celo7 can you vote for two people

I want to vote for three people tho

Good luck @ACuriousMind @tpg2114 @Jim @AlfredCentauri @rob in the elections :)
@0celo7 You can.

@Danu If there are more than 10 nominees, then there's a primary phase where people can vote on the nomination posts themselves and the top X nominees then proceed to the election

Heh, okay.

8:03 PM
@Jim has my vote

I believe that is because Meek STV with three choices wastes too many votes when there is a large number of candidates.

I must vote for mamma duck

I'm thinking about my 2nd and 3rd choices... ACM for #1 is a given.

please @acuriousmind save me from my insanity and answer my question oh noble shining light of knowledge and wisdom.

^eww
Begging is not attractive :P

8:06 PM
@Obliv Carrying several conversations at once means I'll necessarily not immediately respond to everything :P

How dare you not drop everything for obliv

I'm voting JD all the way baby

Like who do you think you are

@Danu Yes, we skipped them.

8:09 PM
@Danu :( that's my main mode of question asking

Currently drinking some vodka from my coffee mug
I should finish it before voting

^ Interesting strategy.

@0celo7 Then now you know it's annoying :P
@DanielSank I already finished my glass of scotch :)
One more, and I'll choose my #2

Forgot to buy beer before the long weekend :(

Typical German

8:11 PM
I have gin and tonic somewhere, but I don't remember which box they are in...

Alcoholic terrorist

I am just rereading that paper on asymptotic numbers until it makes sense

@Slereah Do you mean you are drinking until it makes sense?

@ACuriousMind Just like last time haha

Don't you
That is how it's done

8:13 PM
@Danu No, last time I had gin, but nothing to mix with

@Danu, new cocktail: Lemonade + gin + sliced strawberry.
Excellent ^

But yeah, me having gin and not consuming it is a regular occurence :D

Oh damn I misinterpreted the scenario. I figured it out thanks ACM

Do u agree with this interpretation
The set of asymptotic number is $^\rho\Bbb R = M_0 / M_1$

@DanielSank I'm just too lazy to make cocktails :(
Also good lemonade is not a thing here---the US thing is much better.

8:15 PM
@Danu Can you procure lemons?

Here it doesn't actually taste like lemon (you can of course make it yourself...)
Yeah yeah, but that's too much effort again :P

With $M_0 = \{x \in\ ^* \Bbb R | \exists n \in \Bbb N. |x| \leq \rho^{-n} \}$

@Danu yes, buying lemonade is usually questionable at best.

^in the US I found it very good, usually

And $M_1 = \{x \in\ ^* \Bbb R | \forall n \in \Bbb N. |x| \leq \rho^{n} \}$
With $\rho$ a fixed infinitesimal
I am interpreting it as it being a set of non-archimedean numbers with some scale limits
That is, there infinities, but they are less large than some infinities in hyperreals
And there are infinitesimals but they are larger than some infinitesimals in the hyperreals
Does that seem correct

8:18 PM
@ACuriousMind That's a terrible state of affairs

Should I get some more alcohol

Yes

it's hard to understand the terror of an empty fridge on a Sunday until you set foot in Germany

Don't you have turkish grocery stores open on that day

True, true

8:19 PM
in France you can always find some algerian grocery store open on sunday

@Danu Where? The stuff in bottles in the grocery stores is usually way to sweet.

@Slereah Rarely, because it is very difficult to get the permission to open on Sundays. Usually, only gas stations and some basic shops in main train stations are open

I don't remember @DanielSank... somewhere in Boston :P

Anyway, is what I'm saying making sense

@ACuriousMind We have an intern who did her PhD in Vienna. She was recently telling me about the Friday evening panic that would set in as she thought of stuff she had to buy before the city shut down for the weekend.

8:20 PM
wrt asymptotic numbers

Apparently, if you forget to buy toilet paper you're just completely screwed.

I still don't know what benefit they have over hyperreals but that's what I'm getting from the definition

Shower after every poop!

@Danu :|

@DanielSank Yeah, that's one of the dangers

8:21 PM
Just use the toilet paper hierarchy

@ACuriousMind Unless you live in Berlin, where Spätis are plentiful and open
no chance of a supermarket, though

@ACuriousMind That's the fascinating part... it's illegal to open on Sunday.
Why?

RUHE

Soft toilet paper $\to$ toiler paper $\to$ tissues $\to$ napkins $\to$ paper towels $\to$ receipts

What possible reason is there to forbid trade on a particular day of the week?

8:22 PM
Also social arguments---the poorest might be forced to work.

@Slereah I'm a little worried about why you have that so formalized and readily on hand.

@Slereah → socks

@Danu ?

Below receipts is 'not wiping', actually

But in the Netherlands that's solved with a big bump in pay for working on Sundays---most students I know were constantly trying to get a Sunday shift.

8:23 PM
@DanielSank quiet

@DanielSank (German)

@EmilioPisanty ?

rest/quiet

@DanielSank as in, Ruhe is German for quiet
=P

Oh!

8:23 PM
@DanielSank =D

Wait, what was @Danu saying "quiet" to?

Reason for no Sunday shops.

Like, it's a taboo subject?

This is in fact the main reason, because of super shitty Christian heritage

Ah.

8:24 PM
Christianity man.. fuckin' Western Europe up fo' realz

It's pretty hard to change laws that are this old

So, same reason you can't buy booze on Sunday's in some towns in the US.

It's also a way to make sure that people have less shitty working hours

or at all, in Utah

@EmilioPisanty so what happens if someone wants to work a weekend?

8:24 PM
@EmilioPisanty Right, exactly. The social argument

Well you can buy alcohol in Utah
But it's pretty weak sauce alcohol

@DanielSank They'd rather forgo that in order to prevent forcing the poorest to work.

@DanielSank That's the American view

I don't understand that social argument. If I own a shop, why can't I employ somone to work Monday-Friday, and then pay a kid to work Sunday for extra cash?

Of course there is a way out (see my comment about the Netherlands)

8:25 PM
@DanielSank It's partly religiously motivated tradition and partly a strong cultural preference to have a day "off". Not working on Sundays comes close to a human right in most people's perceptions.

"Current Utah law sets a limit of 3.2 percent alcohol by weight (4 percent by volume) in beer sold at grocery and convenience stores and at establishments operating under a "beer only" type license, such as taverns, beer bars and some restaurants."
3.2%

@EmilioPisanty It's not the "American" view, it's a totally rational question.

@DanielSank You can, but that's not how it works if you don't force that. Nobody would raise the wages, just put more pressure on workers to work for the same wage on Sundays

The European view is sort of "what happens if people are allowed to work on Sundays?" → "everyone needs to work on Sundays"

@ACuriousMind There's a difference between having the right to not work and imposing that nobody can work.

8:26 PM
Which totally works. People can't stand up for themselves in these situations, especially against their boss.

@Danu Who said anything about raising wages?
@EmilioPisanty Why?

such as e.g. allowing a big supermarket to open on Sundays, which then forces its smaller competitors to open on Sundays,
those have a smaller staff
so more hours for everyone

@DanielSank Okay, so then you're going to effectively allow companies to push the poorest into giving up their last free day. That's one way.

I'm not saying I agree completely

@Danu What?

8:27 PM
There's supermarkets open on sundays here

but that's part of the argument as I understand it

Like it's not that rare
And social order hasn't collapsed yet

@Slereah where's "here"?

Le France

Why does a supermarket open on Sunday mean that the little store down the street makes less money during the week?

8:28 PM
@DanielSank it makes sense to Germans

Because the pre- and post-weekend waves are gone

the waves mostly happen at the supermarkets, though

Is it because it's more convenient to buy groceries on the weekend, so then I do my shopping on Sunday and therefore have nothing to buy from the little store during the work week?

I sort of see the argument but I'm not sure I can articulate it clearly

@EmilioPisanty doesn't :o

8:29 PM
@DanielSank Yeah. German labour laws sort of see your convenience as secondary to people's right to a quiet Sunday.

Though really my main problem isn't shops

@EmilioPisanty that's the point, and the only one

It's offices

Anyways, I agree that closing stores on Sundays forcibly is shit. But I think Sunday work should be accompanied with a pay bump.

@EmilioPisanty This notion that opening my shop on the weekend violates anyone's right to not work on Sunday is totally weird to me.

8:30 PM
I really hate it when the post office isn't open on the week end
or the bank
it's something you really can't do during the week

@Danu In the US it's very simple: you work overtime, you get paid for overtime.

because they always close at like 4 or 5 PM

Done.
And a lot of people like that.

Those lazy pricks

@DanielSank Sunday being overtime?
Is overtime equal to pay bump?

8:31 PM
@DanielSank The argument is supposed to go as follows: If you allow shops to open on Sunday, then people will work on Sunday because they feel it is economically necessary. This conflicts with both the idea that no one should be forced to work on Sunday (and yes, in this context, the forces of the "free market" are commonly perceived as coercion) and that it should be a quiet day for relaxation.
. And yes, this is, in turn, coercing those who "want" to work on Sundays. But this is considered acceptable, since the mainstream German view of capitalism is not that it should be a free market, but a social market

@DanielSank b/c ppl are going to be forced by economic considerations to start working there and it will become normal - Sunday should be for the family for as many people as possible

@DanielSank it's a slippery slope argument. You being open on Sunday pushes others into opening on Sunday.

@Danu I think it's more just a question of hours. Once you go over 40 hours in a week, you're doing overtime.
@Danu Yes, and it can be a lot. Like 50%.

How is being forced to work on sunday different from being forced to work on monday
I don't want to work at all
Yet I am coerced to

@DanielSank If it's forced to be 50% (at least) I'm okay with it.
In Dutch supermarkets it's 100%

8:32 PM
@Danu But note that it's a question of hours, not religiously influenced days of the week.

(or at least it was when my girlfriend, about 7 years ago, worked in one)
@DanielSank For the social argument, the fact that it's Sunday is not important. It could be any day.
Sunday is just a historical artifact

@Sanya Why are they forced to work more? If I'm happy with my income I don't have to work extra days. If my employer tells me I have work more than 40 hours per week, then he gets in trouble (ideally).

Sundays are a spooook

@DanielSank in reality, he doesn't get any trouble for forcing you to work sundays, which should be an exception for cases of need

@DanielSank But especially in the kind of stores that'd be open on Sundays (grocery stores etc) the people working there can be significantly pressured by their bosses. They're typically young people, etc.

8:34 PM
so better to not open the stores

My goodness.... so in Germany if I go for a stroll in the park with my wife on the weekend, we can't grab an ice cream anywhere?

@DanielSank you can

@DanielSank Oh, ice cream places are opened hahaha

restaurants are excepted

Just not grocery stores

8:35 PM
ice cream shops, restaurants, bars, and bakeries

hospitals, police ...

also Spätis

@Danu The law specifically says that grocery stores may not open on Sundays?

in the blessed cities that have them

@DanielSank No, it lists specific exceptions which are allowed to open

8:35 PM
@DanielSank the law (as I understand it) has a blanket ban with exceptions

@DanielSank No, most stores. The law probably says "all except X"
lol three responses to one

So the law says nobody may open, unless you sell ice cream, bread, or are a restaurant?

(or [some more things])

That is so weird.

@DanielSank yup
and in Berlin, booze

8:37 PM
$\log_\rho |x|$

So then the entireties of both the social argument and the economic one are complete bullshit?

Oh god

@DanielSank Yeah, but things like zoos, museums, or other entertaining/cultural places will be open too

Infinitesimal basis logs

Because a bunch of places are open anyway?

8:37 PM
@DanielSank Yeah, sorta :)
So I think they should open, but with a pay bump.
Actually, the one person I know who works at an ice cream store did use to get a pay bump on Sundays.

@DanielSank it workes more by kind of industry than product; but kinda - it also depends on the federal state

Wait why is this even a thing
It's a valuation
How is $\log_\rho |x|$ finite

Basically, every place that might contribute to the enjoyment of your free Sunday will be open. Most of them will be closed some other day of the week, though - many restaurants have one weekday where they are closed, or open shorter than usual

↑ that

Let me correct that @DanielSank---the arguments are definitely not bullshit. The consequences are not consistently followed up on though

8:39 PM
This is unbelievable. You guys all just argued (perhaps not your personal views) that for economic and social reasons, people should not work on Sunday. Yet in the end, the law singles out only a small set of business which cannot open on Sunday, so people are still working in restaurants, ice cream shops, cultural locations, etc.
Unbelievable

That's because cultural location are run by the government

Also note what ACM said---musea, for instance, all close on Mondays here.

that's reality - and where is the problem? This is being practical

And the German government could never be evil

(which again demonstrates that the Sunday thing is not essential)

8:39 PM
@DanielSank the overwhelming majority of people don't work in places that can open on Sundays

@ACuriousMind What if my free Sunday involves cooking food that I don't have in my pantry?

@Slereah the German government is evil
@DanielSank then you misplanned

@DanielSank Bad luck---happens to me all the time :(

Running out of food on sunday is pretty shit

@EmilioPisanty Yes, but it sounds like exactly the people that are supposed to be protected can work on Sunday.

8:40 PM

@DanielSank Then you should have planned ahead! Germans have little sympathy for failing to plan your free time (that's only half a joke)

I remember when shops closed 8pm on workdays and 2pm on Saturday

@DanielSank It's just sort of baked into the German brain to go grocery shopping on Saturdays

I always have to buy some mediocre food from the tiny grocery store

@DanielSank that's definitely true

8:40 PM
@Sanya They still close at 8PM here :(

@EmilioPisanty LOLOL so wtf?!

@DanielSank I was as mystified as you

@Danu in Bayern yes, e.g.; Hessen has until 12 on workdays

I doubt the ticket vendor at the zoo or the dude scooping ice cream are high income earners. Yet they can work on Sunday.
Meanwhile, the banker has Sunday off.

@Sanya Oh man that'd be amazing.

8:41 PM
This sounds rather ridiculous to my USA brain.

but some of the weirder aspects of German culture really are unbreakable rocks. You can bash your brain against them all you want and the only one that will come out the worse for wear will be your brain

I agree that the compromise in Germany specifically is a bit weird. @DanielSank
But it's not like that in every country.

and yeah, it's particularly hard for Americans to take in, I think

@DanielSank but he gets legally obliging additions to his pay - but of course, it's a compromise between practice and morals

The philosophy is the same in the Netherlands, with a much more reasonable outcome
2

8:43 PM
@Danu supermarkets on Sundays?

@Danu That is such a Dutch statement. Oh my goodness.

or at least some form of grocery store?

@DanielSank ?
@EmilioPisanty Of course. With a big pay bump :)

I don't get it man

@Danu I can't quite articulate why.

8:44 PM

@Danu sounds like an interesting country, then

@Danu Dude, what if I work Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday?

$\log_\rho (x) = \log(x) / \log(\rho) \approx \log(x) / -\omega \approx \epsilon$

Why should I get a pay bump for Sunday?

8:45 PM
How is that at all a valuation

The Dutch have a 100% traders mentality. This shows up in many places, e.g. how we do politics (the famous "poldermodel" based on compromises), but also in always trying to show how we got "the best deal" :) Hence we'll say things like "look we tried the same idea but better than you" :D

It maps all finite numbers to some infinitesimal

@DanielSank Then you're getting a pay bump for free ^^

@Danu It's not "free". It comes out of the business revenue.

@DanielSank cause you're sacrificing part of your social life, simple

8:46 PM
Why should I, morally, be bound to pay an employee more on Sunday?
Because God?

@DanielSank Now that's a USA thing to say.

your kids and friends will be free friday evening/saturday evening

@DanielSank No, the Netherlands is one of the most secular countries in the world.
Sanya is right

@Danu No, it's not. It's a thing to say once you remember that blindly arguing in favor of workers all the time at the total expense of everyone else is foolish.

@DanielSank Again, a very US thing to say.

8:47 PM
You're all communists, ffs

Do you really think that what just happened is
> blindly arguing in favor of workers all the time at the total expense of everyone else
That's hyperbolic at best
Anyways, I didn't mean for this to get so heated, so I'll back off.

@Danu I think not, given that every single argument posed by everyone buy me so far has been about why not working on Sunday is better for the guy in the [business which closes on Sunday].

@DanielSank it's better for society as a whole
mainly for families
but also for everyone in general

@ACuriousMind I'm very confused. Today in analysis the prof gave a function $f:\Bbb R^2\to \Bbb R$ s.t. $\partial_x f|_{(0,0)}$ and $\partial_yf|_{(0,0)}$ existed, but the function was not even continuous there! So the existence of partial derivatives does not imply Frechet differentiability, which implies continuity. But why do we define $C^k$ with partials?

because it's easier to meet up

8:50 PM
If the partials are continuous, do we have Frechet differentiability?

@Sanya You know that based on an experiment you did with several different countries, and where you measured happiness etc. while controlling for other factors?

I don't see how people meeting up is this important tbh

@DanielSank Okay... But there are statistics that show that the most socially oriented countries have the happiest inhabitants.

@Danu Usually countries with a population of <10mill though

(Scandinavia, Netherlands always rank very highly)
@BernardMeurer Hmm, is that true?

8:51 PM
@DanielSank this is something that we natural scientists usually don't understand - but you can't do an experiment on everything

@Danu Interesting. My friend who did her PhD in Vienna said the Viennese are always grumpy and complaining about stuff.

mmmm
dat anecdotal evidence
3

@DanielSank Fairly certain, we could fact check though I can always be wrong?

@DanielSank Sure, but there are two types of happiness (Daniel Kahnemann writes about this in his great book "Thinking fast, thinking slow")

three stars?

8:52 PM
@Sanya I know that, which is why I think it's a bit funky to make statements that one thing or another is better for everyone, especially in the middle of a conversation where not everyone agrees, which should be evidence that you can't make blanket statements about what's best.

did I say something stupid?

@DanielSank tbh at this point there's a large fraction of inertia - it's done this way, and it doesn't make sense to stop

Similarly, parents always say they're happiest when spending time with their children. It turns out that if you ask them while they're with their children, they're actually grumpy, annoyed, etc

@Danu Hahahaha.
That's awesome.

@DanielSank without convictions, you won't be able to set political rules, get over it

8:53 PM
@DanielSank (Kahnemann has the data to back that parents example up!) :)

politics based on experimental evidence does not work

@Sanya Your point being?

@Sanya That's not true at all. Policies and rules can be crafted with the fact that not everyone wants the same thing explicitly in mind.

@Sanya Do you have experimental evidence for that?
2

lel

8:54 PM
Huh?
How is that elementary?

@Danu Lol

@DanielSank that doesn't contradict my statement

Too many easy jokes... I should refrain

I needed a delicate mean value theorem argument.

@Sanya Or, in other words, "evidence-based policy" only works so long as you're not basing things on policy-based evidence.

8:55 PM
^ Heheheh

user218912
fuck you need 150 rep to vote.

user218912
sorry @ACuriousMind

user116211
@IceLord :(

I wonder if it's appropriate to ask here: in case multiple edits are made on a question as the one who asked it makes progress, should the edits be collected in the final answer for a more coherent Q&A or should it be left as is?

@IceLord post some answers/questions if you feel strongly about voting.

user218912
8:56 PM
@Danu maybe I will.

@ErikJörgenfelt It's better to collect everything at the end of the process.

user116211
@Slereah Is it!!

It's not useful for others, who might come years later, to see the entire back-and-forth between people, and the resulting progress, step by step.

@Slereah O_O What for?

4 messages moved to Trash

8:57 PM
I don't know

@Slereah Don't go there.

user116211
:32698032 There is ACM ;)) Make Phys.SE great again!!

@IceLord So...get some rep! It's not that hard.

No need to go there, it has happened!

^^^ Did you just compare ACM to Trump?

8:57 PM
I think ACM and Trump are very similar

user116211
@0celo7 How?

Would you people please decide whether I'm Trump or Clinton? I'm confused by the mixed analogies :P

Similar intelligence, temperament, etc.

lmao
I HAVE GOOD TEMPERAMENT

(I'm also be insulted by at least one of those comparisons)

8:58 PM
Trumpton

@ACuriousMind Right, I wouldn't want to be called a rickety old hag either.
the star wall is full of shitposts today, whew

user218912
my computer screen is so small I can only see the mod stars.