The Axon Terminal

Ben Brocka

2:33 AM

crap I need to start contributing to this site again

@Josh looks like you found a bug:

2

Q: Can't create a new tag wiki SE 2.0 meta sites

Looks like creating tag wikis on SE 2.0 metas isn't working. To reproduce, go to the "moderation" tag page on Programmers meta. There is no tag wiki, so click the "help us create it" link. Instead of going to the edit page with textboxes for the excerpt and the body, another page is shown with ...

Jeromy Anglim

3:24 AM

I notice we've just hit the 100 question mark.

I did a little bit of googling for where others are asking questions and answers:

4

Q: Where else are people asking scientific questions about psychology and cognitive science?

At present, I think the stack exchange model provides the best infrastructure for building a high-quality question and answer site. In general, I think that if people on the Internet who are looking for a place to ask quality scientific questions on psychology and cognitive science, become aware ...

discussion site-promotion

Josh

12:41 PM

@BenBrocka ooooh, a bug!

And I was about to give Tim Stone +100 on MSO!

@JeromyAnglim Yey for reaching 100 questions! Good finds on those other forums, also

Josh

1:03 PM

Great answer @JeromyAnglim!

5

A: By learning to read and write upside down, what did I do to myself?

Negative Transfer A common scientific term to describe what you are talking about is called negative transfer. I.e., where learning one skill actually results in lower performance on another skill. This is contrasted with positive transfer, when learning one skill facilitates performance on anot...

I read that question and was worried it wasn't going to generate very good answers, I was very pleasantly surprised that you provided a term for exactly what he described!

Josh

3:03 PM

LOL at:

2

Q: Is leg jiggling a focus aid?

This is slightly left-field, but I am interested in the CS implications of this. Many people are, like me, leg jigglers. That is, we often sit jiggling or bouncing a leg - usually to the irritation of those who don't around us, but that is a separate issue. The evidence that I have seen is that ...

performance

I have had people get perturbed at me for "leg jiggling" as well. Plus calling it that just sounds humorous :-)

I also have some suggested edit's I'd love for someone to take a anger at on that question as well as in this answer (CC @BenBrocka :-)

Steven Jeuris

@Josh I was actually leg jiggling as I was reading that question! :)

Josh

now you'll have a hell of a time trying to stop, lol

I'm also curious as to why someone downvoted my question about Synesthesia... if only because I'd improve it if I could. I suspect it was just someone who didn't like the question at all/thought it was too basic/too general/etc. Not overly concerned about it at all, just curious/desire to improve the question

Steven Jeuris

@Josh Why can't I 'suggest edit' that question? Wanted to fix the types and use a list for the a, b, c summary.

Josh

@StevenJeuris because I already did that :-)

Steven Jeuris

@Josh Oh, SE amazes me again, smart.

Josh

3:09 PM

now if we could get someone to approve my edits... glares at Ben

(I'm totally joking of course. Really he should just bounty 425 reps to me so I can approve edits :-)

Steven Jeuris

... and now if only SE would be smart enough to detect list items and suggest making lists out of them! :)

Josh

@StevenJeuris To MSO! ;-)

Steven Jeuris

@Josh No time, want to fix something before end of work.

Josh

Good luck @Steven!

Okay, in an effort to stop my now-constant-leg-jiggling and also try and earn some health points at the same time I now head for the exercise bike!

Steven Jeuris

@Josh Which one do you have?

I work on exercise bike software. ;p

Josh

3:13 PM

@StevenJeuris amazon.com/gp/product/…

Since you write software for these bikes maybe you can tell me WTF it means when it tells me to "reverse direction", LOL

Because if it actually means "pedal backwards" this seems... rather silly :-)

Steven Jeuris

@Josh That's boring! :) Check this out: youtube.com/watch?v=bIeSEDL-CXE

Josh

@StevenJeuris I will check that when I return! If I'm going to make it to my meeting in time I better head AFK now, so we can discuss later @Steven :-)

TTYL!

Steven Jeuris

@Josh Haha, that indeed is a poor way of putting it! ;)

Ben Brocka

3:32 PM

@Josh ping me if you need any more, I still don't get the little notification that helps me find suggested edits

Ben Brocka

5:16 PM

Remeber to try and reach out to industry experts on Twitter/ect: twitter.com/#!/BenBrocka/status/165118432231165952

Josh

7:19 PM

Whew, today's a busy one!

@BenBrocka Thanks! I think those two were the only ones I have pending at the moment

@Ben looks like this edit is pending.

So are these: 61 60 59 57

Josh

7:59 PM

Thanks for the approvals @Ben!

@StevenJeuris man I wish I had that!

Steven Jeuris

@Josh That's another way to gain rep. ;p

Josh

Sadly the boring bike was what was within my budget, lol

Not to mention it was what was within my budget in the middle of the recession!

Steven Jeuris

@Josh Understandable, it is quite expensive. Probably because it's quite a niche market.

Josh

I normally watch things like Charlie Rose while biking. That's whan I watched the Charlie Rose Brain Series, actually

I had a Trek magnetic resistance bike before, but it eventually gave out

Steven Jeuris

@Josh We once figured we could play real movies instead of those 'real life videos' :) If you wouldn't peddle fast enough you'd get an annoying slow movie, haha. :)

Did I just say peddle? That can't be right.

Ben Brocka

8:03 PM

thanks

Steven Jeuris

.. to pedal?

Josh

LOL

That would make for an interesting bike ride

Steven Jeuris

@Josh ... very helpful. :) I pedal on my bike?

Josh

I do find that when watching anything political I bike faster, especially if the politicians get my blood boiling hahaha

@StevenJeuris yes, you pedal your bike while riding around to peddle your wares

Steven Jeuris

@Josh Great memory aid ... or so we'll see in about 1 month when I ask the same question again.

yes, you peddle your bike while riding around to pedal your wares .... Shit

Josh

8:07 PM

LOL, damn you English language!

Steven Jeuris

Haha, a better idea would be to visualize what peddling a bike would look like. :O :)

Josh

5 hours ago, by Steven Jeuris

I work on exercise bike software. ;p

Just ask your sales team @Steven! ;-)

Steven Jeuris

Haha! This will stick!

He can no longer pedal his bike as he is peddling too much.

Josh

ahahahahahaha

@StevenJeuris this has now been saved to my "random funny chat images" folder :-D

Whew, this one needs some major edits. I'll take a stab at it as long as nobody else is.

0

Q: Is there any term/bias corresponding to the praise for the unknown?

The Humanbeing is inclined to praise and even afraid of the unknown. This inclination has led to the mythology and many gods up to now and we are still carrying this habit on our daily life. "Oh, look at these crop circles, aliens must have created them!" "Oh, he can bend the spoon! He must ha...

cognitive-psychology psychology

> "Oh, he can bend the spoon! He must have psychic power!"

>_> is this even a real question?

Steven Jeuris

@Josh Let me check.

Ow, I have read a bit on that subject, "The God Delusion". Richard Dawkins added plenty of references as well as to why we would be inclined to believe such stuff. Although it all sounded a bit vague to me.

Josh

8:17 PM

Okay, I will continue to edit!

Steven Jeuris

@Josh Don't forget to add those wikipedia references. ;p

Josh

Yup! Thanks :-D

Steven Jeuris

And removing those pesky 'thanks' stuff. Newcomers to SE are way too friendly. :)

Josh

hahahah

@StevenJeuris you mean linking "God of the Gaps" right? Or more of them?

Steven Jeuris

@Josh [9][10]

Josh

8:20 PM

Oh I just deleted those since it was quoted. Do you think I should keep them and just link em?

Steven Jeuris

At least I would link them, and if they are any good, adding them in full text at the bottom might even improve the question.

Is there any consensus on how to add references yet? ... checking. :)

Josh

Oh crap, now I lost them... actually if @Ben would be so kind as to approve my edits then we can see the diffs and you can clean those up for me @Steven. +2's all around!

Steven Jeuris

Still only 3 up votes. Wouldn't call that a consensus.

Josh

Yeah I know. NEED MOAR META USErS!

Steven Jeuris

While you're at it, I suggest a 'belief' tag?

... or is it 'believe'.

Either way, I'm definitely interested in that question.

Josh

8:34 PM

More edits for Mr @Ben :-)

Steven Jeuris

It's a pity I don't have the book near me at the moment, otherwise I could have attempted to turn my comment into an answer.

Josh

Also, yey for Nice Question badge on Question #1 :-D

Steven Jeuris

I'm sure there must have been a couple of references in that book.

Josh

Cog Sci Newsflash: @JeromyAnglim has overtaken @BenBrocka for the #1 user position!

I'm going to start bugging Jeromy to approve my edits now :-)

Steven Jeuris

@BenBrocka ... Ben's post I reply to now is probably the reason. :)

@Josh That user did sufficient research in my opinion btw. Interesting link to Occam's razor, God of the gaps ... Your edits will do magic! :)

Josh

8:41 PM

@StevenJeuris Thanks. I agree, after reading the question more it is a valid question. The parts about "Oh, he can bend the spoon! He must have psychic power!" put me off at first, plus until i edited I was kinda unclear on the question

Steven Jeuris

I interpret it two folded, "Why do we believe?" and "Why do we want to believe?"

Small difference actually.

Josh

Good point!

Fascinating question when you think about it, because as he points out, it is pretty ingrained in our nature

Steven Jeuris

Well, why it is ingrained, I find the evolutionary argument I read about pretty convincing.

Jeromy Anglim

Hi all, just woke up for the morning; @Josh I'm happy to approve edits; bring them on :-)

Josh

Well then good morning @Jeromy! :-)

Steven Jeuris

8:47 PM

But somehow that doesn't feel like it explains his questions, why we tend to prefer a explanation over just abiding by not being able to explain it.

Josh

Looks like you just approved my final remaining pending edit @Jeromy, which pushed me to 500 rep (yey!). Now @StevenJeuris you can tweak this question more if you wanted to. (I couldn't see the Diff anymore after posting a suggested edit)

Steven Jeuris

@Josh For starters, I find the question title itself still terrible. :O

Although, I don't know a good alternative immediately. :)

Josh

Ug, that's normally where I start! IDK what's wrong with me today, distracted I guess :-p

> What drives Humans to praise or fear the unknown?

maybe?

Steven Jeuris

@Josh Better!

Although, it's not the unknown you praise, but an unsubstantiated explanation of it.

Josh

@StevenJeuris Very true

That could be improved at a number of points in his question

> Why are Humans reluctant to understand the unknown?

still not happy with that

Steven Jeuris

8:57 PM

Why are people inclined to believe unsubstantiated explanations when faced with the unknown?

A bit too long though.

@Josh Why are people inclined to resort to belief when faced with the unknown?

You like?

Josh

@StevenJeuris I like it

@StevenJeuris yes even better

Steven Jeuris

K, editing ...

Those are interesting articles they linked to in wikipedia. I've added them again, but only as a link, not at the bottom of the references.

newdualism.org/papers/R.Larmer/Gaps.htm

amazon.com/dp/0805074791/?tag=stackoverfl08-20

Josh

@StevenJeuris this sounds fascinating!

Steven Jeuris

I want that book. :) It might actually answer the question. A bit dated though (2003).

Josh

It's amazing how fast we learn things in this field

That's one of the reasons I love it, it's so new compared to other sciences

Steven Jeuris

9:16 PM

@JeromyAnglim: Another update! :)

Or do you already have a list of suggested edits?

Josh

I don't think anyone does... I suspect a bug but I'm not sure

SE Staff appointing mods will solve the problem :-D

Ben Brocka

@Josh My last post was a week ago, so that's probably why :P

Josh

@BenBrocka haha that could be why. You just felt badly and wanted to let the rest of us catch up, eh? ;-)

Steven Jeuris

211 with that edit! Whew! :)

I'm catching up alright!

Ben Brocka

Surprised I'm still getting rep actually

Josh

9:28 PM

I upvote just about everything I see from both of you two, so, that helps I'm sure :-)

(because you guys do a great job of asking/answering :-)

Steven Jeuris

@BenBrocka Any ideas on the 'believe' question? I'm quite interested in it, and if you know anything relating to it can do some research on that. :)

Ben Brocka

I've heard some stuff but don't feel like digging for research on it...that's a big part of why I havent' anwered lately :) finding resources for UX is hard enough

Josh

We need more users! :-)

I know two other people I am going to refer to the site

Also nice edits @Steven, improved upon my edits well

Jeromy Anglim

I think I have to click on the "review" button to see suggested edits.

Josh

Jeromy has the power!

I have the review link but not enough rep to do anything there, lol. Well actually now I can VTC

Ben Brocka

9:40 PM

@JeromyAnglim no, it's in mod tools, which is in a higher priv bracket

0

Q: What is the most complex artificial neural network created to date?

A few years ago I wrote a research paper on neural networks, at the time IBM's Blue Brain was the clear winner. Some rumor went around that they were close to emulating a brain the complexity of a cat; this has been debunked. At the time their research was groundbreaking and previously even emu...

neural-network artificial-neural-network artificial-intelligence

Josh

@BenBrocka HAL9000 of course!!!

Although Siri would argue that point ;-)

Jeromy Anglim

this is what it looks like to me, at least when there are no edits

Josh

5 mins ago, by Josh

Jeromy has the power!

:-D

Ben Brocka

Hm, then it's just the notification we don't get? I thought I checked that tab before and it doesn't show anything

Jeromy Anglim

I agree; it is strange that there are no notifications that I'm aware of.

Steven Jeuris

9:51 PM

@Josh Siri ain't complex, I would even argue, it isn't AI? As far as I understand it it's simply a smart platform for speech recognition, that's all.

Yet another over simplistic answer provided to you by yours truly!

1

A: Why are people inclined to resort to belief when faced with the unknown?

In the book "Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast: The Evolutionary Origins of Belief", Wolpert (2007) discusses the evolutionary origins of belief. Although I haven't read it yet, abc news reviewed the book. Wolpert argues that our wide range of beliefs, some of which are clearly false,...

Josh

@StevenJeuris I was halfway joking.... but in seriousness, I'd say complex yes, netral network no

The speech recognition is done on the phone (I am pretty sure)

Siri is a NLP

which I'd argue is failry complex :-)

but much of what Siri does is offloaded to Wolfram Alpha

Ben Brocka

@Josh NLP are of course AI complete, it's one of the fundamentally difficult aspects of AI. I would certainly not discount Siri as "not an AI"

It processes language quite well, though it does offload many searches to wolfram alpha

Steven Jeuris

@BenBrocka Wouldn't that question quickly get outdated? This seems suitable for wiki on the long run. Even the question has to be updated as more modern neural networks are developed.

Josh

@BenBrocka doesn't what characterizes something as an AI really depend on if the system can learn?

I am not sure if Siri learns based on it's experiences, or if it functions from a central database of knowledge fed to it by developers

I think only Apple knows for sure

Steven Jeuris

@Josh But does it do NLP? As far as I know some apps are aware of specific words which can trigger a requested action. I see it more as a link between words and actions, nothing more. Well .. that and it keeps 'context', so the links between words and actions change depending on your previous 'action'.

Josh

9:56 PM

@StevenJeuris this is a very good point...

Ben Brocka

@StevenJeuris Breakthroughs in neural networks are fairly rare...and even if it had to turn community wiki it's an often relevant and important question

Josh

@StevenJeuris I've seen my business partner talk to it. He asks it things in so many ways and tries to trick it, I am fairly convinced it does NLP.

Steven Jeuris

@Josh But that's the thing. If you say 'umbrella' and <town-name> in one sentence, it's going to give you the weather. That's how I figured it would work.

It doesn't matter how you phrase it.

Josh

@StevenJeuris I think if it gets confused it just resorts to poor matching

@StevenJeuris and in my experience it seems it ultimately dumps to "shopping for term" or "google for term"

Steven Jeuris

... oh well, that's how I would attempt to implement it at least. :)

A connected graph of words which when combined trigger certain actions.

And applications can plug in their own graphs.

Ben Brocka

10:00 PM

Learning is a branch of AI, rarely is any AI solution supposed to solve all possible problems of AI, if it did we would have solved the "central problem" of creating an AI as "smart" as a human

Steven Jeuris

@Josh The thing is exactly that afaik, Siri doesn't learn in any sense. I guess it's all based on predefined data.

Ben Brocka

@StevenJeuris i.e. a neural network :) that's an extremely simplified way of how words activate neurons

Steven Jeuris

@BenBrocka A neural network can change itself right?

Josh

@BenBrocka very interesting. THis is one of the things I'm hoping to learn a lot more about from our site. Even though I am a professional developer I've never really dabbled in AI. Aside from a robotics class in high school, and I don't think that counts :-)

@StevenJeuris Siri's responses change but it's unclear why, that is, do humans correct it or is it learning. We can only guess unless I can convicne my brother to get insider info :-D

Steven Jeuris

For me for something to be AI, the resulting artifact should be created by the program, and not just follow a predefined path.

Josh

10:04 PM

@StevenJeuris I agree. But my opinions in this area carry very little weight :-D

Also, yey for one of the first real on-topic chats! \o/

Steven Jeuris

@Josh In what sense do they change? If you start a request, and ask the exact same thing over again as in a previous 'session', I would be amazed it answers differently.

Josh

@StevenJeuris well I know for one thing the "joke" questions have changed

i.e. now the first response to "Open the pod bay doors, Hal" is "Oh no, not this again", since everyone asks Siri that

now does Siri know everyone has asked that and developed that response? I suspect a dev saw a vast increase in people asking that and coded "Not this again" as the first response

Ben Brocka

@StevenJeuris Organic ones certainly, an artificial one can technically be hard wired, it depends on how willing you are to define it as a neural network when it doesn't perfectly emulate the functionality of an organic one

Josh

Siri (software)

Siri () is an intelligent software assistant and knowledge navigator functioning as a personal assistant application for iOS. The application uses a natural language user interface to answer questions, make recommendations, and perform actions by delegating requests to a set of web services. Apple claims that the software adapts to the user's individual preferences over time and personalizes results, as well as accomplishing tasks such as finding recommendations for nearby restaurants, or getting directions. Siri was originally introduced as an iOS application available in the App Store...

> Apple claims that the software adapts to the user's individual preferences over time and personalizes results, as well as accomplishing tasks such as finding recommendations for nearby restaurants, or getting directions

That's a form of learning...

Ben Brocka

Is my answer here too fragmented?

0

A: What can we learn from the neural networks of C.elegans to understand human brains?

Caenorhabditis elegans is probably not an ancestor to Humans. As found in Sponge proteins are more similar to those of Homo sapiens than to Caenorhabditis elegans, certain sponges were found to have more similar protein structures to humans than C. elegans suggesting the sponges are the ancestor....

Again their question was probably overly general

Josh

10:10 PM

reads the answer

Jeromy Anglim

updated thoughts on the landscape of Q&A sites: meta.cogsci.stackexchange.com/a/113/52

Josh

Doesn't seem fragmented to me @Ben, it's a clear and concise answer. Addresses all his points logically

> There are also a lot of people asking questions on psychology sites who are working through psychological problems. While these sometimes might be on topic on this site, a lot of the time, they would be too specific, and not scientific enough (in my opinion) for this site

@JeromyAnglim that's a great point

They're all good points @Jeromy

Jeromy Anglim

@Josh cheers

@BenBrocka nice answer on the c.elegans question

Josh

So the question is, how can we gently introduce some of those users to our site...

> Ideally it would be good to inform people on other forums who might be interested in being involved in a more feature rich site. However, I'm not quite sure about how that can be done both effectively and in a respectful way (i.e., without spamming).

Over seeding is bad... but maybe if we find good, answerable questions on forums and ask them here, then post back to the forums that we cross posted..?

Not sure, I am leery based on my coming off too strong for the LinuxQuestions crowd :-p

Ben Brocka

@Josh I asked Stephen Anderson about one of our questions here

@stephenanderson Any thoughts on Motivation vs Goal Oriented behavior? http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/144/motivation-vs-goal-oriented-behavior

Tweeted by BenBrocka on February 2, 2012 at 5:04 PM

@Josh I remember that question. Sadly we can't expect everyone to leave forum based Q&A quite yet...

Jeromy Anglim

10:21 PM

@Josh perhaps that's a separate meta question.

Josh

Now, in retrospect, I wasn't formulating my MSO answer to appease the users of LinuxQuestions, I was doing it to appease MSO users to earn rep. So saying things like we do it better! is clearly not what to say to users of another forum ;-)

Ben Brocka

Hm...but it's true. Forums were not made for the Q&A format

Josh

It does come off very strong and borderline rude. It's a great example of why I am "The Unhandled Exception" on MSO, that's what I mean when I say I'm more snarky on MSO XD

@BenBrocka oh I believe it 100% and stand by it. I just mean the tone could offend a long time forum user

Ben Brocka

Everyone that's tried to use the Apple support forum knows that no matter how fabulous the company offering the fourm is, forum style threads don't fucking work for support or Q&A

Josh

agrees

Ben Brocka

10:23 PM

Though of course explainations of the benefits would be better than just stating that our site is superior

Josh

@JeromyAnglim yeah, I think so. It's related to this one but not really a duplicate, I think

Ben Brocka

Weeeeeeeeeee

Josh

eeek! a worm!!! Have a star XD

Steven Jeuris

@BenBrocka Convince by example would be the way to go.

Jeromy Anglim

@BenBrocka good point; and ultimately it's the people that appreciate the benefits of stack exchange that we'd like to get involved.

@StevenJeuris good point; growth will happen organically as the site builds up more high quality questions and answers; I'd just like to give it a bit more a kick start, particularly considering that cognitive sciences is a little further removed from the programming core of stack exchange.

Ben Brocka

10:28 PM

Benefits before features :) sharing examples questions and or asking people to answer is probably a great start

Steven Jeuris

@JeromyAnglim Seriously? "Weeeeeeeeeee" is a good point? :/ :)

Josh

LOL @StevenJeuris, you twit ;-)

Ben Brocka

What can I say, everything I say is brilliant

Jeromy Anglim

:-) must type more quickly

Ben Brocka

Even the monosyllabic exclamations of joy

Jeromy Anglim

10:30 PM

lol

Josh

@JeromyAnglim I agree, I think it's our job as enthusiasts / early adopters of this site to help the community grow

Jeromy Anglim

agree

Anyway, I met get to some question and answering now. ciao

Ben Brocka

Hey, SE finally went full HTML5

0

A: Why is Stack Exchange still using the HTML4 doctype with HTML5 features?

I don't know when we changed this, but View Source and you'll plainly see we now have <!DOCTYPE html> On all SE 2.0 sites.

Josh

ttyl @Jeromy!

Ben Brocka

@JeromyAnglim byebye

Josh

10:36 PM

One of these days Jeff is going to permaban me, lmao

Josh

10:57 PM

@BenBrocka I still don't understand wtf is up with the close votes on that question. So wrong

"Our docutype is wrong!" / "This is the same issue as our jQuery version being not the latest bleeding edge" WTF? Uhhh no, no it is not!

</rant>

Ben Brocka

Yeah, I assume they mean "We don't change things. EVAR"

Josh

Good old MSO =p

Josh

11:45 PM

1

A: Is leg jiggling a focus aid?

I've also observed this behaviour in friends, and was curious to see what research has been done on the topic. Here's what I found (summary at the end). Sechrest and Flores (1971) study of leg-jiggling Sechrest and Flores (1971) performed an observational study of the prevalence of leg-jigglin...

> They tentatively conclude that leg jiggling is a symptom of tension and classify it as a nervous mannerism

@JeromyAnglim that's what my business partner thinks it is when I start this semi-involuntary motion

he always asks me why I am nervous / upset

> Researchers have noticed that leg jiggling is used by students when studying in order to deal with the otherwise, long period of no movement

that makes a lot of sense

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