TRPG General Chat

Jesse Cohoon

12:00 AM

@Miniman it's an idea I get from - of all places video games. Platformers to be specific.

As you get more abilities, you can explore new areas

You shrink, great, you get to explore these small areas

you fly, great, you get to explore these others

the zelda franchise is filed with stuff like this

er filled

BESW

@Ash It's not a video game thing, it's a narrative savviness thing: when the camera lingers on an apparently unimportant thing in a movie, we know it's actually important. When the Scooby Gang spends time with a new character, we know they're part of the plot. When a GM gives an otherwise unremarkable NPC a name, we know to pay more attention to him.

user15026

@BESW that makes sense. :)

Miniman

@JesseCohoon It's called gating. I'll let angrygm explain here: theangrygm.com/welcome-to-the-megadungeon-gating

Jesse Cohoon

@Miniman and this is a bad thing?

user15026

@JesseCohoon okay, yeah, but it also makes it very obvious that you are a) getting a new ability and b) must then use it for the bajillion puzzles ahead in this area

user15026

12:03 AM

Whereas it doesnt feel like you are doing that with the lock thing

Miniman

@JesseCohoon It's not, but it takes a lot of work to do well.

What level are your players?

user15026

(and to be honest even in a video game that can get tedious)

BESW

Also, video games have careful control over accessibility features. D&D 3.5 is a lot more... fluid... about what PCs are capable of.

@Ash Earlier he mentioned immersion as a valuable play goal, and a lot of people feel that telegraphing intent is antithetical to immersion.

user15026

@BESW Yeah, especially in a more role play focused game, then I assume my imagination is more the limiter than anything

Jesse Cohoon

They're approaching level 6. And the rogue has a a ring of knock, which the lock doesn't respond to.

Miniman

12:05 AM

@JesseCohoon I seriously recommend reading that article.

Jesse Cohoon

(yeah based on charges, but cast knock on the ring and it recharges)

user15026

@BESW ah, yeah. Nothing drops me out of the story in Zelda games faster than the "I got a great new item! That I am only going to use for the puzzles in this area and then never again"

BESW

So it's a Ring of Why Do I Have This Ring?

Jesse Cohoon

actually it works in other areas perfectly well... just not on THOSE doors

BESW

So it's a Ring of Useful Except When I Really Want It To Be.

Seriously, do read the article @Miniman linked.

You're struggling to do something in a system that is not friendly to that purpose, and your solution is to break the system in ways that will likely alienate your players and make them mistrustful going forward.

There are better ways.

Jesse Cohoon

12:09 AM

like roleplaying vs roll playing.

trogdor

@Ash yeah, I like Zelda games, but too much/many of them is tedious

BESW

That phrase means next to nothing. It's implying a false dichotomy based on extremely vague definitions that nobody agrees on.

7

user15026

@JesseCohoon but you aren't letting them role play, you are smashing them into one desired solution. Also, having just read that article @Miniman linked, it kinda mentions the sort of thing you are trying to do and why it's not too practical

BESW

And when we ask what your goal is, you say "maybe it's this" or "maybe it's that." If you don't know what your goal for this scenario is, it's okay to say so. Most of us have been there: we've got a cool idea but aren't sure what to do with it, or have a feeling about what we want to happen but haven't yet figured out how to define it.

user15026

@trogdor agreed.

trogdor

12:13 AM

one of the reasons I let my brother do most of the work for Majora's Mask

XD

Miniman

@trogdor Majora's Mask...in a lot of ways, isn't really a Zelda game.

Which is a ridiculous thing to say, of course.

trogdor

@Miniman well, in some ways yes

@Miniman I get what you mean, trust me XD

BESW

If you want them to interact with the guild instead of with a mechanism, put guards on the door instead of a Hill Giant Dire Werelock. If you want to make it a hard gate to keep them out of an area, perhaps make the difficulty finding the guild's well-hidden hideout. If you want to force a PC to wear an item... well, don't force them, but there are other ways to get to that goal.

user15026

@Miniman which is why it's my least favorite

trogdor

@Miniman but it still had some elements of Zelda games,.... the trouble was, they were the weaker elements, and or the overused ones that they decided to ramp up the use of XD

Miniman

12:15 AM

@Ash It's a brilliant game, and I really admire the designers...but I don't actually enjoy playing it much XD

Jesse Cohoon

Even if i set the lock (not door) DC to be low, unless they can figure out to stick their arm shoulder deep into it, it's useless. And there are a million inconsequential things I tell the PCs that they think are meaningful, so it's not always easy to get them to pat attention to what's important

Miniman

Sidenote: The distinction between "good" and "fun" is a really important one.

trogdor

@Miniman I think it was well designed in many ways, but none of those ways was "you will actually want to do all this stuff"

BESW

In my very first RPG ever, I had an assassin's guild castle looming over the starting town, which they ran. I planned for it to be an everpresent background menace, with the PCs slowly learning more about it and eventually engaging directly with its members. Maybe, toward the end of the campaign, one of the PCs might get inducted into the guild.

trogdor

at least not for people such as myself

BESW

12:18 AM

Second session: "We walk up and knock on the door."

So, half the party became low-level initiates in the guild and I used their first guild mission as the leverage to send them off into the plot.

They learnt deep political secrets about how the world worked, which I'd expected them to take months to figure out on their own, because they asked good questions of the right people.

And it was all so much more awesome as they went into the wider world knowing the dramatic implications of what they were seeing.

Jesse Cohoon

anyways, I'll putz around with figuring out if i want to use this or maybe make the system easier to steal/ obtain the secrets to the doors/ passageways.

the main goal, the passageways locks and doors themselves aside, is to allow the PCs to get from point A to point B in town unobserved (and some places outside too), and faster than going through the streets.

Shalvenay

12:46 AM

hey there @nitsua60

nitsua60

@JesseCohoon I've got to admit (just catching up on the last 8 hours' discussions) that it feels like you've got a hammer (cool trapped lock!) and you're looking for a nail. I'll third the suggestion of checking out Angry's article on gating. Even if you don't use it in the current situation, you'll never go wrong having more Angry sitting around in the back of your mind.

OTOH, I wasn't just asking about the narrative function that you want the trapped lock to serve; also there's the in-game reason(s) that the guild masters would have designed it and put it there. Do only the very few top lieutenants know it's there? Does every guild member know how to use these?
What happens if your PCs just stake out the door and make their way in behind some n00b guildie? What if a PC tries it, gets their hand lopped off, and now there's a rotting hand in the mechanism making it unworkable for the next legitimate user?

@Shalvenay hiya

So, @Shalvenay, talk to me about Discord. It seems like it's designed to be a voice and chat overlay--that right?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 or someone fills the mechanism with two-part epoxy :P DoS attack much?

@nitsua60 it can be used like that, but it also works OK standalone

nitsua60

@Shalvenay What functions will it serve?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 voice & text chat

nitsua60

@Shalvenay [Handful of gravel.] Okay, who wants to go clean the locks out? [/crickets]

BESW

12:59 AM

With dice bot.

Shalvenay

yes, there is a dicebot there too :)

nitsua60

What're the advantages over R20?

@BESW hiya

BESW

[wave]

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 mainly that R20 doesn't get along with VI's screenreader stuff whereas it seems Discord works well for him

nitsua60

@BESW how's life?

@Shalvenay Ahh... excellent.

Could we use as an overlay on a Gdoc?

BESW

1:00 AM

@nitsua60 I could complain, but I probably shouldn't. You?

nitsua60

@BESW About the same =)

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 not sure what you mean by "overlay" in that -- but a Gdoc I'm sure could be used for some of the state-tracking stuff (although I'm not sure how much of it is needed in DW -- it sounds much more like a Theater of the Mind game to me, and I also suspect the DM tracks most of the state instead of delegating much of that to the players)

nitsua60

@Shalvenay I dunno--it seemed from some help pages/screenshots that people were using it on top of whatever game they were playing. I'm not so much thinking of state-tracking as it's nice to have a space to punch out a quick sketch/schematic. I don't know if VI's got a screen-magnifier that'd work well with, or if that's a game-technique we'll end up eschewing?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 you'll have to ask him on that one

nitsua60

Maybe worth having a bit of a technical session 0.

Shalvenay

1:04 AM

@nitsua60 yeah -- while we don't seem to have any glaring issues (like people who can't get $chatplatform working for them), the issue of how to sub for the typical visual aids is a good one

nitsua60

@Shalvenay you have five minutes to walk me into Discord?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 sure

nitsua60

@Shalvenay okay, I think I'm in the Spectacularly Bad #general

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 looks like you're in both channels actually

nitsua60

@Shalvenay I "don't have permission" to view message or type in the stackening

BESW

1:45 AM

Hey, Dungeon World folks--is there a decent playbook that's similar to the Paladin but with less condescension built into the character?

Shalvenay

@BESW that has me curious what character concept you're looking to play actually

BESW

The Guardian, not the Proselytiser.

Someone driven by their code to do right by others, rather than someone driven by their code to tell others what's right to do.

Shalvenay

@BESW ah. that actually sounds like more or less what I want to capture with Jherala

BESW

There IS a "Guardian" playbook from a third party, but I'm wary of those.

It's by the same guy who did the Beast playbook with its "heritage moves."

(I thought of using the Beast playbook and choosing the Coutal as my PC's heritage.)

Adeptus

What about Fighter, with Multiclass moves to pick up something you like from Paladin?

nitsua60

1:55 AM

@BESW What about the paladin do you like?

BESW

The Quest, I guess?

nitsua60

@BESW I wonder if that's one that could be swapped with the fighter's signature weapon or with the Cleric's deity? Only if there isn't another of that character, though....

OTOH, is it possible to just play a paladin and lean away from the more "preachy" moves?

"I Am the Law" comes out of the box, but the others can be avoided....

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 -- mind re-linking me the base playbook btw?

BESW

I'm trying not to pick a playbook, but figuring out which I could use happily.

Druid is okay, although the shapeshifting sounds like it'd be a hassle for everyone.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay dungeon-world.com, "downloads" section, "play kit"

"Voice of Authority" could also be re-skinned to be more of a "Voice of Inspiration"-type thing. It's not your authority that gives you the bonus to hiring, but rather the glorious nature of your (well-publicized) quest.

BESW

2:04 AM

...I also really like the "outsider" race option in Barbarian.

I think I'm just too used to Fate-style "make it up on your own" and I simply have to get used to "pick from a list" style chargen again.

Adeptus

moves, playbooks, etc are also at DW Gazetteer and Dungeon World SRD

nitsua60

Okay, I'm really going to bed this time. Nighty-night, all =)

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 I second that -- Voice of Inspiration would make more sense for Jherala

BESW

ttfn

I'm sure I can work something out.

Ranger, Immolator, and Barbarian are workable.

Shalvenay

I'm looking hard at Druid with a touch of Immolator actually

(as an alternative to Jherala and her Paladin-Guardian ways -- this'd actually be a port of one of my NWN characters, who is a Kossuthite elf druid)

BESW

2:24 AM

**[Timely RPGery](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nKltjD1HJ954pS3QZZL-E_ckNaKEeedxMKn7XwdFiio/edit?usp=sharing "Click for full source doc; please suggest items to pin!"):**
[BoH](https://bundleofholding.com "Buy RPGs cheap in bulk, support charities & indie designers!");
[Fate module](http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/191782/Good-Neighbors--A-World-of-Adventure-for-Fate-Core "In Good Neighbors, players take on two roles: a human who must deal with the politics of this new industry, and a fairy who feels the full spiritual damage of the Industry.");

Sandwich

2:39 AM

@JesseCohoon

@JesseCohoon You can't have any spell effects inside of an antimagic field though.. so that would prevent the mechanism to activate the spell blades from activating

hey there @Sandwich

Hey Shalv

how're things going?

Good, just got home from work

Shalvenay

worked late today eh?

Sandwich

2:47 AM

Nah I always work from 5 to X

Shalvenay

@Sandwich aaah.

Sandwich

Delivering pizzas

Shalvenay

nods

@Sandwich -- so have you gotten to look at the DW stuff? (playkit and such, mostly)

Sandwich

Nah I'm downloading it now

Gonna peruse it

Shalvenay

aaah

cool

Sandwich

4:21 AM

Anyone happen to have the playbooks for Assassin and Psion for dungeon world?

Adeptus

4:49 AM

How about Monk, Shaman, Hunter, Vampire, Trickster, Professional; Dungeoneer, Elementalist, Magnate; Sorcerer; Warlock; Blackguard; Alchemist - all free

(though that first pack was written by the same guy that did the Beast playbook, that BESW was complaining about earlier)

Sandwich

Psions are my favorite class in 3.5E so I wanna see what their book has in it out of curiosity

Might take a look at Sorcerer though

BESW

5:22 AM

Remember, DW isn't replicating any particular edition of DnD, or even the DnD franchise itself.

It's built to create the kinds of stories that the DnD genre seems poised tell, divorced from the constraints of its combat focused, binary outcome mechanics.

If you go into a playbook expecting particular mechanics or balance... You're going to have a bad time.

Sandwich

I'm not expecting that

I just want to see what it consists of

I like the Wizard playbook but I'd like to see how big the lake is before I take a jump in a pond, you know?

BESW

5:52 AM

Aye.

I'm trying to limit myself to the base options, if only for simplicity.

kviiri

6:19 AM

The Thief class has decent flavor for theming as an assassin. They are good at surprise attacks and poisoning their foes.

Sandwich

6:34 AM

I just wanna read the two

Assassin and Psion

Sandwich

6:56 AM

Gave answering that PAO question a shot

PAO is broken as hell though so

kviiri

I'm not sure if such playbooks exist for DW.

At least I haven't seen them.

reddit.com/r/DungeonWorld/comments/3ycr50/… they do show up here though.

Sandwich

Yeah thats where I saw them when I searched

I can BUY them

But I don't have any money

kviiri

Personally, I tend to be skeptical about expanded class libraries. All too often the best ideas are spent on the first set classes and the rest is just forced into existence to fill the void.

There are always exceptions, of course.

Sandwich

7:11 AM

Ah found it

dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13355093/…

Thank you internet

kviiri

Hm, lots and lots of classes.

RollingFeles

7:31 AM

Canada signed the wrong line on the Japanese WWII surrender document and now it looks like shit, thanks Canada https://t.co/62CROUvMix

Tweeted by DanAmira on August 31, 2016 at 1:43 AM

Hey-ho!

Adeptus

@DanAmira Wait, does this mean Canada is technically still at war? They could invade Japan and it's all legal?

Tweeted by jonathanchait on August 31, 2016 at 1:46 AM in reply to DanAmira

kviiri

Oh boy!

trogdor

lol

but they won't, because Canada

:P

kviiri

They have enough sense not to, even if it was legal.

Riley

7:46 AM

Mornin

kviiri

7:59 AM

Hi!

eimyr

8:25 AM

Yo

kviiri

8:37 AM

I may be plagued by preconceptions, but a lot of those classes in the DW comprehensive class pdf seem quite boring compared to the original ones.

I sort of see the rationale for translating DnD classes into DW, but then again I feel DnD is plagued by having too many ever-so-slightly different class archetypes.

So... uh, I guess that mountain of classes is kind of making backwards progress. Congress. Regress. Whatever :P

Sandwich

8:55 AM

That might not even be the one I'm looking for

BESW

9:51 AM

Heroes, I just finished editing the last part of Rockalypse. I had so much fun, I can't recommend this game enough! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1745101684/rockalypse-the-fate-core-rpg-of-musical-conflict

Tweeted by OneShotRPG on September 6, 2016 at 10:33 PM

BESW

11:47 AM

Ask Lovecraft - Tropes

►

kviiri

12:32 PM

We've been playing the Lovecraft-inspired boardgame with RPG influences, Mansions of Madness. Maybe five games in, I'm already sick of it.

But no one else bothers to learn the keeper rules I guess, so I'm socially obligated to play.

Riley

Why are you sick of it already?

kviiri

12:48 PM

It's feels too tedious.

The players spend ages co-ordinating their moves, the keeper mostly spends the game spamming one thing over and over again. Not worth the trouble IMO.

nitsua60

1:01 PM

I find it strange that nobody's mentioned the Rogue's Mastermind archetype when asnwering this question. Makes me wonder if the archetype's no good, or if people just don't know about it....

doppelgreener

3:59 PM

@kviiri you're not really. If you're not playing and they still want to, someone else will learn the keeper rules. If nobody wants to learn the keeper rules, they'll work out something else to do.

trogdor

7:30 PM

yeah, that kind of thing should not be considered a social obligation

BESW

11:42 PM

Perils of Google Translate No. 44a. People seeking greater warning of volcanic eruption want sirens _not_ mermaids. (Spanish: Sirenas).

Tweeted by VolcanoJenni on September 7, 2016 at 9:51 AM

"In case of volcanic eruption, you will hear mermaids. Do not ignore the mermaids; they are there for your safety." https://twitter.com/volcanojenni/status/773458626367356928

Tweeted by sarahchurchwell on September 7, 2016 at 11:10 AM

**[Timely RPGery](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nKltjD1HJ954pS3QZZL-E_ckNaKEeedxMKn7XwdFiio/edit?usp=sharing "Click for full source doc; please suggest items to pin!"):**
[BoH](https://bundleofholding.com "Buy RPGs cheap in bulk, support charities & indie designers!");
[Fate module](http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/191782/Good-Neighbors--A-World-of-Adventure-for-Fate-Core "In Good Neighbors, players take on two roles: a human who must deal with the politics of this new industry, and a fairy who feels the full spiritual damage of the Industry.");

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