Vedanta and Philosophy

8:09 AM

@Tezz No. i couldn't get that book for free. I searched a lot. Sri M has removed it all over the internet. archive.org/details/ShriShivaRahasya Isn't this full version Shiva Rahasya Purana? BTW, what do you think about Avatara from Advaitic view?

Tezz

8:22 AM

@TheDestroyer how many pages are there in it (Shiva Rahasya).... Shiva Rahasya is a huge book which size is nearly equal as Mahabharat...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Author even says that he saw Lord Shiva, Lord Rama, Buddha, Jesus, Guru Gobindh Singh which is bit not believable. I think he used his imagination to monetize the book. He also says about Babaji's birth as Nagarajan in Tamilnadu around 400CE which may not be true. I think he wants to monetize his book and that could be the reason he added fiction and removed pirated copies from net even Torrents

Tezz

@TheDestroyer I'm confused what concept should I make regarding Avatar...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Only 223 pages

Tezz

@TheDestroyer Buddha attained PariNirvana then how can he see him..?

@TheDestroyer oh then it's same which I have... I don't know whether there is prediction of AdiShankara in those 223 pages...

@TheDestroyer have you read it (Apprenticed ....)..?

The Destroyer

@Tezz I just had glance but couldn't find it. I will scrutinize it later. No i didn't read but read summary from various pages.

@Tezz Read reviews amazon.in/…

Tezz

8:27 AM

Hehe one says:...

The initial chapters of the book was very interesting to read . However it has become a masala film at the end. He had tried to promote himself merely by writing things that are impossible to believe. Writing that he had met Lord Shiva, Sai ram , Guru Gobind singh and Jesus Christ sitting together and meeting him is absurd. This cannot be a secular meeting conducted by political parties or Iftar conducted on Eid..

@TheDestroyer I don't think that getting glimpse of Lord Shiva is so easy...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Exactly like Indian politics. He was Mumtaz Ali, a devout muslim, by birth but his grandmother has interest in Sufi saints.

Sri Madhukarnath

Sri M is a living Yogi and disciple of Sri Maheshwarnath Babaji who in turn was the disciple of Mahavatar Babaji.Sri M is also known as Sri Madhukarnath ji. Sri M lives at Madanapalle, Andhra Pradesh, India. He should not be confused with M or Mahendranath Gupta, a disciple of Ramakrishna. == Childhood == Sri M was born as Mumtaz Ali Khan on 6 November 1948. In a devout Muslim family in Trivandrum, Kerala. Sri M's maternal grandmother had Sufi connections and told him many Sufi stories in his childhood. Between age of five and nine, he was exposed to Hinduism and Christianity. Even at that age...

Tezz

@TheDestroyer even Narayana did penance for 60000 yrs. to get Darshan of Lord Shiva, Lord Krishna did severe penance for 12 years, Lord Parashurama did severe penance, Upamanyu and his mother did severe penance.... then how can one claim he easily saw conversations of Lord Shiva....

The Destroyer

@Tezz Yes. Even i think so. It's not easy to see Lord Shiva in real world unless in dream (when one thinks of any God more, he will see that God in dream but again this is just hallucination).

Tezz

@TheDestroyer he is a living yogi... if he has power... at least he should debunk James Randi Paranormal Challenge...

@TheDestroyer yes, either it is hallucination... or it is some grace of Lord Shiva... and he saw some forms... and not the actual form...

The Destroyer

@Tezz i doubt this Sri M but i want to read that book for Babaji and i feel that Shiva in any form must be teaching teaching Yoga now as he is Adiyogi and He is refugee of Yogis.

Tezz

8:36 AM

@TheDestroyer yes, I believe in Mahavtar Babaji... Shiva also taught Yoga in 12 th century as Gorakhnath along with other Navanaths...

Navanaths are Kaya Siddha and they do not die... so I think Navanaths are teaching yoga somewhere....

The Destroyer

@Tezz Only this Guy claims this and none other terms Babaji as Shiva. I initially had firm belief that Babaji is Shiva but i am skeptical about his claim. I also believe in Babaji and i will feel more happy if Babaji is Shiva. In the book Autobiography of yogi, Yoagananda says his Guru's Guru lahari Mahasaya was initiated using Nath Sampradaya by Babaji

Tezz

@TheDestroyer Mahavtar Babaji may be Tatwa Incarnation only... ie. Having some amount of Shiva Tatwa....

@TheDestroyer did you completed Autobiography of yogi?...

@TheDestroyer in a wide sense we all are incarnation of Shiva... Mahabharat says "Yallingakam Trayambaka Sarvamisha Bhaglingakam Yaduma SarvaDhatri"... ie. All the masculine things in this world is Trayambaka and all feminine things are Uma...

The Destroyer

@Tezz According to Shiva Purana, in this Kali Yuga only en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakulish is predestined Avatar. But Lakulish is already identified. Even birth of Lakulish is different. Shiva enters into a dead body and thus Lakuslish is born.

@Tezz Yeah. All men are Parameswara and All women are aspects of Adiparashakti.

@Tezz I didn't complete. I am reading ch 25 and just read few lines of ch 33 and got a doubt and posted it.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer Lakulish died or not?...

The Destroyer

@Tezz don't know. I only know how he was born. But wiki didn't mention how he was born.

Tezz

8:47 AM

@TheDestroyer Is there detailed story of Lakulish avaliable...?

The Destroyer

@Tezz His name was Yogatma and become famous as Lakuli
http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/13561/3500

@Tezz I don't know.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer "believed to be founder of Pasupata Sect.".... Pasupata sect was already there... even Mahabharat mentions it... even Lord Krishna was initiated in Pasupat Vrata... I think he is just Reviver of Pasupat sect...

"Rsabha (well known Avatar of Shiva)".... who is he?...

The Destroyer

@Tezz there's story of Rshaba Avatar in Shiva Purana. i think he is founder of Jainism.

4

Q: Was Rishabha, the first tirthankar of Jainism, an incarnation of Lord Vishnu or Lord Shiva?

Rishabha, the first tirthankar of Jainism, is known to be an incarnation of Lord Vishnu. He is mentioned in the Bhagavat Purana and the Vedas. Jain Acharya Jinasena also confirmed that Rishabha was an avatar of Vishnu. But Rishabha shares a lot of similarities to Lord Shiva. He attained Moksha a...

Let me give you Shiva Purana chapter

Tezz

@TheDestroyer oh there is not conclusive answer...

@TheDestroyer have you found some verses which uses the word "Soma" to denote "With Uma...:

The Destroyer

@Tezz Yeah. See this

http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/10614/3500

@Tezz What does the word mean "Somaayacha"? With Soma the moon or Uma?

Tezz

9:05 AM

@TheDestroyer Soma can mean either moon or divine juice or 'With Uma"... there is a passage in YajurVeda where Gods pray "Soma-Rudra" so that Sun can regain light.... So, I think it means Sa Uma Rudra....

Upto now I have only found 1 Refrence from Harivamsha where Krishna says "Soma" to denote With Uma....

Refrences of Sa + Amba =Samba is frequently found... but I'm not sure whether Soma is popularly used or not...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Actually there's a breathtaking song about Shiva in a Telugu/Kannda movie though song is Sanskrit or hymns praising Shiva. There i heard "Namo Somayacha Bhavyayacha Bhagyayacha... ".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lPozjD-WJA

@Tezz Awesome song sung by Shankara Mahadevan

Tezz

@TheDestroyer there is passage in Sri Rudram also "Nama Somaya cha Rudraya Cha Tamraya Charunaye Cha".... Sayana intreprets this Soma as with Uma... I also intrepret it as With Uma... but I want some more refrences from Itihasa Purana...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Yeah. Even that song has most of lines taken from Rudram. Do listen that song.

Tezz

9:20 AM

@TheDestroyer oh yes, thanks!... It's a nice song...

The Destroyer

@Tezz See story of Rshaba indianscriptures.com/Content/Articles/PDFs/24249/…

Tezz

@TheDestroyer oh ok! Thanks

Chinmay Sarupria

9:54 AM

@TheDestroyer @Tezz Well darshan of Shiva is not that hard for realized souls, even Swami Vivekananda saw Rudra. Swami Sivananda says the same thing, once you attain a high spiritual state, Vishnu with 4 hands will be seen, same for other deities.

Chinmay Sarupria

10:05 AM

@Tezz I don't think attaining ParaNirvana means no one can see him. Swami Vivekananda saw Buddha 2 times in just 39 years. Realized souls know they are omnipresent, they can take form at will. In Autobiography of a Yogi, Sri Yukteswar also took form after death and came before Paramahamsa Yogananda.

The Destroyer

@ChinmaySarupria It might be true with Swami Vivekanada but i doubt claims of Sri M. No one other that Sri M said that Babaji is Shiva. Again if we assume Babaji as avatar of Shiva, don't you think it is rare that Shiva takes Purna Avatars or 100% incarnations? He should be Tattva avatar or Jnana Avatar where they can't change their form.

Chinmay Sarupria

11:43 AM

@TheDestroyer I believe in Sri M's claim because of Babaji's stature. Babaji is known by all, respected by all, everyone bows before him. There is something very special about him. He is the one who gave the world great yogis in the form of Lahiri Mahasaya, Paramahamsa Yogananda etc.. I don't remember any yogi who can be called a match for Babaji by any standards. He doesn't comes in public, always works behind the curtains for the welfare of humanity.

@TheDestroyer Yogis have come and gone but no one is/was like Babaji, the great guru of all. And when we talk about such a personality, do you think he is some ordinary yogi? He must be Shiva - the Adi Yogi!

Tezz

1:06 PM

@ChinmaySarupria well Darshan of Shiva means which form of Shiva... even Advaita says that realizing self isn't sufficient to make one omniscient... one needs Tapa Shakti to beheld some things...

@ChinmaySarupria our flesh eyes and body can't be able to beheld full form of Shiva... however we may get vision of some forms of Shiva...

@ChinmaySarupria if you look in Mahabharat where Upamanyu describes Lord Krishna about Shiva... there he describes form of Shiva accompanied by Uma... Vishnu and Brahma in his left and right side singing hymns in his praise... other Gods in respective position and extremely efflugent....

Rama also behelds similar form of Shiva in Padma Purana .. there also Brahma and Vishnu stand in Right and left side singing Sama hymns and Sri Rudram... Ganga singing Svestasvatara and other Gods in respective position...

Harivamsha also describes special form of Lord Shiva where he is seen helding Kamandala and Mala in his hands... other Gods in respective position... all singing his praises...accompanied by Uma and so on... (Beheld by Lord Krishna)...

So it is extremely difficult to have glimpse of that form...Harivamsha states "Dwadasabdam Tapascharte Mano Dadhe Tato Hari"... ie. Hari(Krishna) decided to do Penance for 12 years... He did extremely hard penance... eating very few... always in meditation of Shiva... Harivamsha describes Garuda used to bring wood required for Homam... Chakra used to bring flower... Sankha used to protect yajna... similarly Saranga and other were helping in his penance....

Thus it is extremely difficult to get Glimpse of special form of Shiva... even Gods have to do extreme penances...Padma Purana describes Rama nearly fainted on behelding that form of Shiva....

However I agree that if one is realized then one can get glimpse of deity which he can beheld (not the special form/ direct incarnation of SadaShiva)...

@ChinmaySarupria where does Swami Vivekananda tells that he saw Gautama Buddha two times... as per Buddhist scripture one can't get/see Buddha when he attains MahaPariNirvana... as per Mahayana Buddha come from Tushita heaven to earth out of compassion of Jeevas so that they can help before their final departure...

@ChinmaySarupria when did Swami Vivekananda saw Rudra?

@TheDestroyer I think one change his form even he is Tatwa or Jnana avatar also... Jalandhar changed his form as Lord Shiva and went and tried to deceive Parvati.. of course it was due to Maya... but he changed...

@ChinmaySarupria actually me and @TheDestroyer are Judging the Book by Cover.... ie. Judging by just reading reviews ... we even don't know the context...

Havd you read "Apprenticed to Himalayan Master".... ? Do you have pdf of it... if so you can send us through email...

Keshav Srinivasan

1:32 PM

@Tezz Concerning Lakulisha, I'm also interested in his life story. I posted question about him here: hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/2481/36

Tezz

In what context Sri M says he behelds Lord Shiva having conversation...? @ChinmaySarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan yes, I have read that question... Do you know whether Lakulish is alive or not?...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz No, I'm not sure if he's still alive or whether he just lived for an ordinary span of time.

The Destroyer

1:52 PM

@Tezz I think anyone with Siddhis can change form.

@Tezz I think Apprenticed to Himalayan Master is not a good book like Autobiography of yogi. Sri M actually was happy when he encountered sages with miracles but any true God seeker doesn't care miracles or Supernatural powers of Siddhas.

@ChinmaySarupria Do you have hard copy or soft-copy of the book?

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz @TheDestroyer I've got hard copy of "Apprenticed to the Himalayan Master"

@Tezz In Complete works, Swami Vivekananda said Buddha came in front of him 2 times

The Destroyer

@ChinmaySarupria I feel some parts of his book as fiction such as seeing Lord Shiva, Rama, Buddha, Jesus and Guru Gobindh Singh.

Chinmay Sarupria

@TheDestroyer He never saw them with physical eyes.

The Destroyer

Why did he leave Mohammad?

Tezz

"Sri M actually was happy when he encountered sages with miracles but any true God seeker doesn't care miracles or Supernatural powers of Siddhas.".... I think this is only applicable for Past times where there were not atheism... In the present period of atheism at least siddhi witness can do a good job...

@TheDestroyer all may be true but I highly doubt on claim of seeing Buddha...

Chinmay Sarupria

1:59 PM

Sri M's guru, Maheshwarnath Babaji said that Mohammad and Sai Baba couldn't come for some reason

Tezz

He may have seen other Buddhas of Tushita heaven... or other Siddha Buddhas not Gautam Buddha...

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz Well he himself said that he saw that great Buddha whom he considers the greatest man to ever take birth

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria which Sai?..
Shridi Sai or Satya Sai?...

The Destroyer

@ChinmaySarupria No. What did they say about Mohammad? Did they portray him as good or bad? there are many controversies regarding Mohammad.

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz Shirdi Sai Baba

@TheDestroyer He portrays him as good, a true yogi, who also considers Shiva as the Maha guru

Tezz

2:02 PM

@TheDestroyer yes, Bhavisya purana likely tells he is incarnation of Tripurari Demon... although there is a good chance that it is later addition...

@ChinmaySarupria however as a Hindu we should believe that Buddhist philosophy is wrong... so there is no such thing as Parinirvana... so it is possible that one can meet Gautam Buddha....

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz I don't remember where I read that Swami Vivekananda saw Rudra, I will try and find that again

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria oh ok!... if you find do inform me....

The Destroyer

@ChinmaySarupria I doubt it. Even if we remove Wahhabi Islam, I still doubt Mohammad as Yogi. Swami Vivekananda opined that Mohammad was not at all Yogi.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer what is Wahhabi Islam..?

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz Yes, Swami Vivekananda said that Buddha only teached Upanishads but his followers couldn't understand him and that led to the corruption of his teaching and ultimately marked the start of Buddhism as it is known today

Even Jesus Christ preached Advaita

So I think Mohammad was also Advaitin

The Destroyer

2:06 PM

@Tezz extremist and misinterpreted form of Islam. All terrorists or Jihadists believe this form of Islam is true. This is responsible for all terrorist activities.

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria actually Buddhism is Advaita without eternal Brahman... that only is difference...

The Destroyer

Wahhabism

Wahhabism (Arabic: الوهابية‎‎, al-Wahhābiya(h)) or Wahhabi mission (/wəˈhɑːbi, wɑː-/; Arabic: الدعوة الوهابية‎‎, ad-Da'wa al-Wahhābiya(h) ) is a religious movement or branch of Sunni Islam. It has been variously described as "ultraconservative", "austere", "fundamentalist", "puritanical" or "puritan" and as an Islamic "reform movement" to restore "pure monotheistic worship" (tawhid) by scholars and advocates, and as an "extremist pseudo-Sunni movement" by opponents. Adherents often object to the term Wahhabi or Wahhabism as derogatory, and prefer to be called Salafi or muwahhid. Many Sunni and...

@ChinmaySarupria Did they say anything about Allah? Allah as Shiva or Eeswara?

Tezz

@TheDestroyer @ChinmaySarupria what do you think what will happen if Muslims and Christians die?... will they beheld Yamaraja at Yamloka...?.... @KeshavSrinivasan

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz Yes that's why 24th Tirthankara of Jainism, Mahavira Swamy presented his own philosophy, Anekantavada, that covers both Vedanta and Buddhism.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz @TheDestroyer I just emailed both of you "Apprenticed to a Himalayan Master". I haven't read it myself, as I don't believe in Mahavtar Babaji.

Tezz

2:09 PM

@TheDestroyer they say that Allaha is only formless... but in Quranas there are stories where Allaha sits...moves etc...

The Destroyer

@KeshavSrinivasan Thank you so much. Did you buy it?

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan oh! Thank you very much...

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan Please send it to me also, it's good to have soft copy along with hard copy :D

The Destroyer

@ChinmaySarupria See this section en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad#Nineteenth_century

Keshav Srinivasan

@TheDestroyer No, I didn't buy it. I found it online.

Tezz

2:11 PM

Swami Vivekananda wrote in his 1896 book Raja Yoga that though Muhammad was inspired, "he was not a trained Yogi, nor did he know the reason of what he was doing." Vivekananda wrote that great evil has been done through Muhammad's fanaticism with "whole countries destroyed" and "millions upon millions of people killed."[18]

The Destroyer

@KeshavSrinivasan It looks like Google.com is more efficient than Google India (:P)

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz @TheDestroyer But it is very much possible that Mohammad's intention was good and just like Buddha's disciples, their respective religions got corrupted

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria might be...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz The fact that Christians and Muslims don't believe in Hinduism doesn't alter its truth. So yes, Christians and Muslims will be judged by Yama, and I daresay they won't be judged positively.

The Destroyer

@ChinmaySarupria I agree that all religions lost their original true forms but at the same time i don't think all are equal and good as Sanatana Dharma.

Chinmay Sarupria

2:15 PM

@TheDestroyer Yes of course, Sanatana Dharma is the most ultimate religion

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria I need your email address. It's probably not a good idea to share your email address on a public chat room, so why don't you send me an email and I can email you back? My email address is on my profile page.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan so a person who have never heard name of Yamaraja... also behelds him after his death...

Keshav Srinivasan

@TheDestroyer Haha, it's more an issue of Keshav Srinivasan is more a efficient searcher than any other living human :-)

The Destroyer

@Tezz They don't believe in Karma, does that mean Karma doesn't affect them? Karma is universal phenomenon. May be Yama appears to them in another form.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer I think you mean me...

Keshav Srinivasan

2:18 PM

@Tezz Yes, the fact that in that particular birth the person never heard of Yama does not alter the fact that Yama is in charge of judging all souls. In any case their soul always knew about Yama, since it visited Yama many times in the past.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan but I believe that they will just keep having birth as per their Karmas in th earth itself... like waking and sleeping phase without their knowledge until they finally get birth as Hindu... then only they are fit to get Darshan of Yama after their death...

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan I've sent you a mail from one of my infinite accounts lol

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Well, their soul has the knowledge that Hinduism is true. And in any case presumably any person who is Christian in this birth was a Hindu in at least one previous birth.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer yes, the most ridiculous concept in them is concept of eternal hell....

Chinmay Sarupria

and resurrection at the end

Tezz

2:24 PM

I had heard Madhavacharya had also concepts of eternal hell...

Chinmay Sarupria

There is a similar concept in Jainism, Nitya Nigodas are eternally bound in hell

The Destroyer

@Tezz I think Interpretation plays a major role here. They might have wrong interpretations. Yukteswara Giri's interpretation of Apple, Adam and Eve is better.

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria OK, I emailed it to you.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer what is his intrepretation?...

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan Thanks

The Destroyer

2:28 PM

Tezz

"@Tezz Gorakhnath himself is the disciple of Balaknath who was born later(not sure if he ever took birth), balaknath is none other than Mahavatar Babaji who is believed to be Lord Shiva. – Chinmay Sarupria Jul 11 at 6:46" ... how do you come to this conclusion... @ChinmaySarupria

The Destroyer

@Tezz See those screenshots

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Yeah, Madhvacharya did have that concept. He thought that some Jivas, known as Tamo-Yogyas, commit sins in birth after birth until due to the weight of their sins they sink into Andhatamas, a place of eternal punishment. Madhvacharya had a lot of weird beliefs.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer so he explains using concepts of Kundalini Yoga...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Yeah.

Tezz

2:32 PM

@KeshavSrinivasan so Regarding the infinte nature of Sanmsara... and if at least 1 jeeva falls in a Mahakalpa also... then there should be infinite Jeevas suffering in AndhaTamasa....

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz I don't exactly remember but I think Sri M's guru said that Babaji is Balaknath and in the 2nd last chapter of the autobiography, he says Gorakhnath along with Guru Govind Singh and others were sitting and Mahadeva was there in the middle, his form was constantly changing to Shunya(Zero)

Tezz

for eternal time...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz By the way, Madhvacharya also believed that there were some souls that were destined to be reborn forever without ever attaining Moksha.

Chinmay Sarupria

and from that form came the voice of Mahavatar Babaji and then Sri M's guru, Maheshwarnath Babaji who was also present there said Babaji is Shiva

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria upto now I have never heard anyother being Guru of Gorakhnath other than Matsendranath...

@KeshavSrinivasan hehe... it's funny..

@KeshavSrinivasan what happens if a powerful sage curses a person "May you never get Moksha"...

The Destroyer

2:37 PM

@Tezz @ChinmaySarupria I think this is good book to know about Gokarnath and his philosophy

archive.org/details/philodophyofgora031535mbp

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz I don't think any sage is powerful enough to deprive a Jiva of his birthright to attain the supreme Brahman.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer oh Thank you... I always have interest in Gorakhnath...

@KeshavSrinivasan what happens if Vishnu gives such curse to a person...

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz I think I framed that comment a little bit incorrectly, what I want to say is that Babaji is NOT the guru of Gorakhnath in the sense that he guided him to realization but rather he is superior to Gorakhnath

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Well, in principle Vishnu could do such a thing. But he wouldn't, as he has boundless compassion for all Jivas.

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz Also Gorakhnath was saying "Bum Bhole" at that point and if we consider Babaji to be Shiva, then Shiva being Adiguru automatically becomes guru of everyone including Gorakhnath

The Destroyer

2:42 PM

@Tezz @KeshavSrinivasan What happened to Dakshinamurthy? Is he still alive?

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan I disagree, neither Vishnu nor any other God is capable enough to give anyone such curse

Advaitically speaking, that would mean Vishnu giving curse to himself that he can't get Moksha

Tezz

@TheDestroyer Dakshinmurty is eternal form Of Shiva... you can get knowledge from him at any time...

It's not like incarnation... it's form...

Keshav Srinivasan

@TheDestroyer @ChinmaySarupria There is only one mention of Balaknath in the book: "The Naths are an ancient order founded by Shiv Mahadev who is also known as Adinath. The next teacher was the great Matsyendranath, who was the teacher of the famous Goraknath. The yogi called Balaknath in the Nath tradition because he always appeared like a teenager, is none other than my master Sri Guru Babaji"

Chinmay Sarupria

Here is a 2 part conversation with Sri M:

Part 1: youtube.com/watch?v=G6sWy-jS9X4

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan what curse does Valmiki gives to the hunter?... is it eternal or for that life only?....

Chinmay Sarupria

2:46 PM

Part 2: youtube.com/watch?v=MOxHkyx40v8

I recommend you to watch from start to finish without skipping any part, something quite interesting is in there

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria Well, I'm speaking from the Sri Vaishnava perspective, in which Sriman Narayana is the supreme Brahman and Jivatmas are distinct from Brahman, although Brahman is their Antaryami or inner self.

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan Yeah that one, it was said by Maheshwarnath Babaji

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria Wikipedia doesn't mention the name Balaknath....en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navnath

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan Even that would mean giving curse to your own self

The Destroyer

@ChinmaySarupria I think giving curse to our own self is against nature. It's like spending good karma and gaining bad karma with no action.

Keshav Srinivasan

2:50 PM

@Tezz The curse that Valmiki gave the hunter is that his name would live in eternal infamy. And that's true, since his deed is recorded in the Valmiki Ramayana and Brahma blessed Valmiki that the Ramayana would exist basically forever.

Chinmay Sarupria

Here is an interesting account of Balaknath meeting Gorakhnath en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Balak_Nath

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria Well, Vishnu certainly can and does curse Jivas in other ways. But he would never want to prevent a Jiva from ever getting Moksha, as he has boundless compassion for all Jivas.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan suppose that one sage or God blessed that "May you rule earth atleast in every kalpa in your various birth"... This blessing can become curse as not getting Moksha...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Yes, and for that very reason I think sages would be powerless to grant such a boon.

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria oh it's interesting... I had never heard Amarnath legend being related to birth of Suka...

The Destroyer

2:54 PM

@Tezz I think giving boon or curse also depends on Virtue of Sage. So, any true sage will never waste his Virtues with gigantic boon or gigantic curse.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer one may loose his intellect while giving curses... but anyway it will be predestined... and it acts just as trigger for other events...

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan Well I don't think Vishnu can ever prevent any Jiva from getting Moksha because, speaking from Vaishnava point, Jivatama is part of Paramatma(Vishnu) so that would mean Vishnu giving curse to his own part and as result some part of Vishnu will have Moksha and other part would not have

Tezz

Just as Bhrigu cursed Vishnu and it became trigger for Dash Avatar... Durvasa cursed devas it became trigger for Samundra manthan... Kasyapa cursed Shiva and it became trigger for shape of Ganesha,... etc ....

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria Yes, it would mean that some parts would attain Moksha and other parts would not. That is not an impossible situation, but certainly from Vishnu's point of view it is an undesirable situation, because of his compassion.

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria in fact these type of questions are like... Is Vishnu capable of creating such stone which he can't carry?... are Gods omnipotent to commit suicide etc....

Chinmay Sarupria

3:04 PM

@KeshavSrinivasan That is in fact an impossible situation, its like a thing is hot and cold at the same time

light and darkness at the same time

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz If you want even more examples of the various consequence that curses by rishis have led to, look at this chapter of the Narayaniya portion of the Shanti Parva of the Mahabharata: sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12c042.htm Start reading where it says "The Brahmanas are distinguished above"

@ChinmaySarupria Well, even if Vishnu does not put a curse on Jivas to prevent them from ever getting Moksha, it is still true that in the present moment, some Jivas have attained Moksha and other Jivas have not yet attained Moksha.

@ChinmaySarupria That's not a contradiction, it's like some parts of an object being hot and other parts being cold.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan oh thanks for that...

@KeshavSrinivasan but putting such curses mean... can Vishnu kill himself or not?... can Vishnu make someone more powerfull than him...? Etc...

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan Adi Shankara criticised that view "It is impossible that contradictory attributes such as being and non-being should at the same time belong to one and the same thing; just as observation teaches us that a thing cannot be hot and cold at the same moment. The third alternative expressed in the words — they either are such or not such — results in cognition of indefinite nature, which is no more a source of true knowledge than doubt is"

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria Different parts of an object can have different attributes.

@Tezz No, Vishnu cannot kill himself or make someone more powerful than he is.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan so, it becomes restriction of omnipotency of Lord...

Giving eternal curse is also like this...

Keshav Srinivasan

3:13 PM

@Tezz Yes, there are restrictions of Vishnu's omnipotence in that sense. But the granting of Moksha is something that is entirely up to Vishnu. So if he chose he could decide never to grant Moksha to a particular Jiva. But he would never want to do that.

@Tezz By the way, that Shanti Parva chapter contains many interesting stories of curses. I'm planning to post questions about some of them.

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan Well those are 2 contradictory statements, first you say he is limited and then you say he has full power.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan oh ok...

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria I said he has full power over the granting of Moksha, I didn't say he has full power over things like killing himself.

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan Did Vishnu ever say "I decide who gets Moksha and who doesn't" ?

Keshav Srinivasan

@ChinmaySarupria Yes, the Pancharatra Agamas discuss this in great detail.

Chinmay Sarupria

3:20 PM

@KeshavSrinivasan Can you post a link to that verse?

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan if Vishnu decides to give moksha to someone.. then why should one worry about his Karmas doing...

I think you mean Vishnu makes decision based on his Karmas...

@ChinmaySarupria Pancharatra Scriptures aren't authority...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Pancharatra Agamas are definitely Sabda Pramana. I suggest you read Yamunacharya's Agama Pramanya.

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz Yeah but still I'm interested in Vishnu's words

Tezz

Only Vaishnavas call them authority... even Advaita reject them...

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan Btw I am still waiting for your reply on Tezz's answer regarding a verse in Padma Purana

Keshav Srinivasan

3:25 PM

@Tezz Adi Shankaracharya only rejects the statements in the Pancharatra Agamas which he believes contradicts Vedanta. But he makes clear that they're correct in other aspects. And there are many Advaitins including Sureshwaracharya and Madhusudhana Saraswati that praise the Pancharatra Agamas as Sabda Pramana.

Chinmay Sarupria

@KeshavSrinivasan Here is the answer: hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/8210/…

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz In fact Sureshwaracharya embraces the Vyuha theory and shows that it does not actually contradicts Vedanta in any way.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan first of all Adi Shankara calls Pacharatra as Veda Ninda... so they are not fit for reading....

Other Advaitins may embrace Vyuha theory...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz He doesn't say they're not fit for reading. He says that in that one quote they criticize the Vedas.

The Destroyer

@ChinmaySarupria regarding Tamasa classification verse of Padma Purana, @Tezz wrote beautiful answer hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/11329/3500

Keshav Srinivasan

3:30 PM

@Tezz In any case, Yamunacharya and Ramanujacharya show that properly interpreted, that quote does not criticize the Vedas at all.

Chinmay Sarupria

Yeah I have read that answer

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan and regarding Vyuha form Adi Shankara completely rejects it... saying it gives notion of Multiple Ishwara... and Jnana shakti, Teja Virya etc... can't be divided in Vyuha forms.. regarding they all are supreme...

@KeshavSrinivasan It is a common logic that Veda Ninda scripture aren't fit for reading...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Adi Shankaracharya makes quite clear that except for those narrow areas of disagreement, he agrees with the Pancharatra Agamas in other respects, like their view of the relation between Brahman and the world and their instructions about meditating upon Sriman Narayana as a means of attaining Moksha.

Tezz

However I think one can at least gain devotion from them...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Yes, it's certainly true that Adi Shankaracharya rejects the Vyuha theory, and he disagrees with the specific statements which he perceives as blaming the Vedas. But he does not consider them unfit for reading.

Tezz

3:33 PM

@TheDestroyer Regarding verses of Padma Puranam.. There are two verses of Padma Purana... and those verses(Tamasic Rajasic classification) are only available in one version...

The Destroyer

@KeshavSrinivasan @Tezz Aagama means "intuition". So, all aagamas are works of intuition of some philosophers. Initially, logic helps for a spiritual aspirant or a Yogi but in later stages of an aspirant or Yogi, only intuition helps. This is what Swami Rama says in amazon.in/Living-Himalayan-Masters-Rama-Swami/dp/0893891568

Living with Himalayan masters book

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan well Yamunacharya and Ramanujaachraya being a Vaishnava will certainly intrepret in that way... just as Shaivites intrepret Brahma sutra in their way...

@KeshavSrinivasan but the main thing is we will not agree on this matter .. I don't believe in Vyuha theory and You are a firm believer...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Well, you can read their arguments and judge their validity for yourself.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan what type of Grammar do Pancharatra use?... Pre Panini or Post Panini....

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz By the way, if you want to read a detailed defense of Pancharatra by an Advaitin, you can read Vedottama Bhattaraka's Tantra Shuddha.

@Tezz Here: open.library.ubc.ca/media/stream/pdf/831/1.0097776/2

@Tezz I'm not sure what grammar they use.

Tezz

3:38 PM

@KeshavSrinivasan oh... Thanks for the link..

Chinmay Sarupria

@TheDestroyer I have purchased Sri Rama's autobiography also but if you compare it with Autbiography of a Yogi and Apprenticed to a Himalayan Master, you might find it untrue

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria @TheDestroyer is Rama Swamy the one also known as Fire Yogi...

Chinmay Sarupria

@TheDestroyer @Tezz See the allegations on Swami Rama en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Rama

Damn, I mistakenly wrote Sri Rama instead of Swami Rama

I strongly believe that Swami Rama is not authentic

Keshav Srinivasan

@TheDestroyer By the way, earlier you said Wahabbi is a distortion of Islam. Actually, it's closer to the original tenets of Islam compared to the liberal sects of Islam that are popular now. I suggest you read this article:

theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/…

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria oh!... he was declared criminal by the court...

Chinmay Sarupria

3:50 PM

Yes, exactly.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer @ChinmaySarupria I had heard a yogi named Prahlad Jnani who lives without eating...

In the 1960s he was examined by scientists at the Menninger Clinic who studied his ability to voluntarily control bodily processes (such as heartbeat, blood pressure, and body temperature) that are normally considered to be non-voluntary (autonomic).

@ChinmaySarupria so was he able to control those things at that time...?

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz Sun Yogi Uma Shankar is another one who lives without eating

See his encounter with Babaji: youtube.com/results?search_query=babaji+sunyogi

The Destroyer

@Tezz @ChinmaySarupria Didn't know Swami Rama was bad guy.

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria is he living now?..

@TheDestroyer maybe he was practicing Vamachara....

Chinmay Sarupria

I think yes though I'm not sure

Ok, he is living now, his facebook is showing that he organised some seminars in Serbia recently

The Destroyer

3:56 PM

@Tezz No. He wasn't. He clearly stated in his book he was not practicing vamachara but learnt a few techniques. May be he showed a technique to that women.

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz I also read that yogis can stop heartbeat at will

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria controlling temp. Is easy task... I can also control temp. To some level just by thought power...

The Destroyer

@KeshavSrinivasan So, Wahabi Islam is true form. @ChinmaySarupria if this is true, you can't defend Mohammad

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz @TheDestroyer Do see the videos from the link I shared above, they are very informative, even talks about dinosaurs.

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria ok I will see them latter...

The Destroyer

4:00 PM

@Tezz @ChinmaySarupria Even i heard about that Jnani who wasn't eating anything. Goddess Durga gave him that power.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer attack of ISIS has increased greatly now....

@TheDestroyer he was also in scientific test for some days...

@TheDestroyer at least I want that some yogis debunk the Randys Paranormal Challenge at least one time... but I think Kali demon will not make it happen....

Chinmay Sarupria

Why does Prahlad Jani live like a woman?

The Destroyer

@Tezz Yeah. They are vehemently planning for attacks in India. Recently, NIA busted their plans in Hyderabad.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer yesterday Truck incident in France.... the day before Bangladesh hotel...

They have crossed limits of terrorism..

@ChinmaySarupria what do you mean by living like a women?...

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz See his images on Google, wears women dress and ornaments

The Destroyer

4:05 PM

@Tezz No true Yogi will do that and their scientific instruments will not work. In rare case, these Scientists may kidnap the true yogi (this could be the their true intention) and conduct test like aliens. US people are most cunning people on this planet.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer now Indian media are saying Zakir Naik should be banned in India... what do you think about that?...

Chinmay Sarupria

@TheDestroyer There is no person who has the power to kidnap the "true" yogi

Tezz

@TheDestroyer hehe... may be...

@ChinmaySarupria yogis power also have restrictions...

It isn't necessary that one can't kidnap them...

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz Becoming invisible is enough to not get kidnapped

Tezz

@ChinmaySarupria I think it's because he is devotee of Maa Durga...

@ChinmaySarupria being invisible isn't a easy task... one needs high yogic power and siddhis...

The Destroyer

4:09 PM

@Tezz Lol. They simply follow words of congress and simply imitate west. They didn't give a damn when he was blabbering some crap about Vedas or Hinduism. Indian media has degraded to very low levels.

Chinmay Sarupria

@Tezz Doing samyama on form will seperate it from body and the yogi will become invisible though he will be present at that very spot and I think most of the yogis can do that

The Destroyer

@Tezz ISIS plan in Hyderabad (Old city of Hyderabad is muslim majority area) is to throw cow meat at Bhagyalaksmi Temple which is located beside Charminar, so that Muslims and Hindus would fight. During clash, they wanted to shoot all people with Guns, that too on the day of Ramzan. Luckily, NIA busted their heinous plan.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer oh... Thanks all people got saved...

Did they catch them or kill them?..

The Destroyer

@Tezz @ChinmaySarupria I think true Yogis can travel from US to Himalayas within no time.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer yes, they are beyond time... but it's rare that they will be born in this Kaliyuga...

Chinmay Sarupria

4:14 PM

@TheDestroyer Yes because they have realized that they are omnipresent, this is why Swami Vivekananda said that a yogi can enter the body of another person because he knows he is omnipresent

The Destroyer

@Tezz They caught them and NIA is interrogating. These Guys are sleeper cells. There's much use.

@Tezz But Yoganada says Yukteswara Giri had such power

Tezz

@TheDestroyer will they be Hanged or what punishment?...

@TheDestroyer at least Nepal is upto now safe from terrorists attack as its surrounded by India and China completely...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Don't know. They are in custody now.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer how did they knew their plan?...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Yeah. Nepal is safe. But some Muslim Scum in India is responsible for this.

@Tezz Old city in Hyderabad is famous for this kind of activities. Hyderabad was ruled NIZAM and it was muslim dominated area untill we Telugus (Hindus) took over it. Now there an idiot called Owaisi who hates hindus and he brainwashes the Muslims there and he's happily ruling (becoming minister) Old city. Old city looks like mini Pakistan.

@Tezz Terrorist always target Hyderabad as this would easily trigger Hindu Muslim clashes.

Tezz

4:22 PM

@TheDestroyer are you living in Hyderabaad?...

@TheDestroyer what is the Condition of Ayodhya Rama Mandira now...?

The Destroyer

@Tezz No. Vijayawada, in Andhra Pradesh.

@Tezz It's in court. Supreme court must decide.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer it's still undecided?...

I had heard two third, one third... etc.. etc.. similar decisions...

The Destroyer

@Tezz 1/3rd of land to Bala Rama Temple, 1/3rd to Sunni board and 1/3rd to other Hindu Religious group

Tezz

@TheDestroyer so case became final... or is it still running on court?...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Actually Hindus want entire land for Temple. They filed a writ petition.

Mosque on other site of Sarayu river

But Muslim leaders are not willing. Depends on Supreme court verdict

Tezz

4:31 PM

@TheDestroyer oh!... Thanks for the information....

The Destroyer

@Tezz It's actually good that BJP has come to power. BJP is in stateit cannot introduce Vedas in colleges/Schools due to noisy congress party and biased Indian Media.

They relate whatever Hinduism to Hindutva and RSS. RIP Secularism in India.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer when is the next election...?

The Destroyer

@Tezz 2019. still 3 more years.

@Tezz Indian media is very biased towards Muslims and Dalits. This is what congress taught to Indians during 60 years.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer what is present status of BJP...? Will it win next election...?

@TheDestroyer "biased"... you mean they talk good about them or bad about them?...

The Destroyer

@Tezz definitely, Modi wave is still working. He is acting like Karma Yogi. He's not responding to barking of Media and Opposition but busy in developing and bringing investments.

@Tezz Pro Muslim and Pro Dalit. If any Muslim guy kills Hindu, they write " misguided Youth" killed a person... But if Hindu does small mistake, they write... Hindutva "Extremist" did that.

@Tezz If any riot incited by Muslims happens, they don't cover that news.

Tezz

4:41 PM

@TheDestroyer but I think Zee News, Sudarshan etc... support BJP...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Yeah, ZNews supports BJP.

@Tezz How's government in Nepal? Or they pro Hindu?

Tezz

@TheDestroyer government somehow supports Hinduism...

Recently they gave 1 crore to Google Boy (Aditya Dahal)....

@TheDestroyer President must visit Padhupatinath during ShivaRatri...

Similarly Udghatan of events are also based on Hindu Rituals...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Communism is doing lots of damage. China is rotting with communism. Some morons of India are following Communism. Even these bigoted communists are only anti Hindu

@Tezz You must read Quora to know facts.

@Tezz I think Pashupatinath is guardian of Nepal.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer whats present condition of Indian Maoists?... I think they behave like Terrorist there...

The Destroyer

@Tezz There's no problem in Nepal as you have less muslim population.

Tezz

4:48 PM

@TheDestroyer yes, Pashupatinath is also called country deity...

Also it didn't became affected by recent earthquake... so people greatly respect it...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Now their population has decreased. Only few districts of chattisgarh has this problem.

@Tezz Yeah. Greatness of Shiva. But Christian Missionaries are converting poor people of South India.

@Tezz North India is affected to with "Love Jihad"and other indirect conversion.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer it's also a big problem here...

@TheDestroyer here Christian missionary didn't allow people to run away during earthquake time... they made then just to pray Jesus... and as a result many people get killed...

The Destroyer

@Tezz There's an interesting story happened in Andhra. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y._S._Rajasekhara_Reddy YSR was converted Christian who had good following among poor. He said he wanted to build church on Hills of tirumala where Lord Venkateswara stays. Guess, his helicopter crashed to RUDRAKONDA (Rudra Hill) to same Seshachalam hills.

@Tezz Seshachalam hills are nothing but Adisesha and Lord Vishnu killed him. HAHA..

Tezz

@TheDestroyer and in some churches those converted Christians were crying Rama, Krishna, Shiva... etc... taking name of Hindu Gods...

@TheDestroyer oh... it's an interesting story..

The Destroyer

@Tezz Indians don't give importance to their Religion. They only give importance to Caste. This is becoming advantage to people of other religions.

Tezz

4:56 PM

@TheDestroyer at least Swami Vivekananda did a great work in saving Hinduism ....

The Destroyer

@Tezz If you see the Hills in google maps, there's no break in mountain chain from tirupati to his crash site.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer here we have to read Biography of Swami Vivekananda in 9th class in Nepali subject...

@TheDestroyer does those hills have shape of Sesha Naag?...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Good. You know Here teacher apologizes to Muslims during lesson of fight between Afzal khan and legendary emperor Shivaji

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