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Tezz
Tezz
3:43 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan I think there are 2 types in Shaktism itself... one who consider Shiva and Shakti as Purush and Prakriti and Shiva creates with help of Shakti...(Saundarya Lahiri verse 1) another who consider Shiva itself comes from Parashakti (Saundarya Lahiri verse 24)....
 
 
1 hour later…
Tezz
Tezz
5:07 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan can you change the topic of this room as "Discussion on Vedanta and Philosophy"... and description as "Discuss various philosophies of Hinduism".... ...
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
5:24 AM
@Tezz Sure, yeah, the current name is kind of awkward.
room topic changed to Discussion on Vedanta and Philosophy: Discuss various philosophies of Hinduism (no tags)
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan oh yes,..
Thank you very much....
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz I think all Shaktas consider Shiva as a manifestation of Shakti.
@Tezz By the way, because Shiva plays such an important role in the Shakta system, long ago there was a group of Shaktas who started worshiping Shiva as their Ishta Devata. That sect is now called "Kashmiri Shavism". They're called Shaivites, but Kashmiri Shaivites still follow Shakta Agamas. And they're the only Shavite sect which believes the world is an illusion, because as I mentioned above the Shakta Agamas are more inclined to an Advaitic worldview compared to the Shaiva Agamas.
@Tezz Abhinavagupta, who wrote the second oldest commentary on the Bhagavad Gita, was a Kashmiri Shaivite.
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan how do Abhinav Gupta inyreprets Bhagvad Gita... does he say Shiva is speaking from mouth of Krishna..?
*intreprets
@KeshavSrinivasan yes, role of Shiva is important in Shaktism... it is itself seen in Sri Yantra... at the ninth bindu level there is a dot combined of red and white colour representing Lalita Maha Tripura Sundari and Kameshwara....
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
5:42 AM
@Tezz I'm not sure what he says about Krishna and Shiva. You can read his commentary (along with many other commentaries) here: bhagavad-gita.us The only thing I know about his commentary is that he interprets it from the perspective of an Advaitic philosophy that's different from Adi Shankaracharya's Advaita Vedanta philosophy.
@Tezz Oh, and also he relies on a recension of the Bhagavad Gita that contains extra verses compared to the standard version; see my answer here:
8
A: Does the Gita have any apocrypha?

Keshav SrinivasanHindu scriptures, including the Mahabharata which contains the Bhagavad Gita, were originally passed down through countless generations via oral tradition. But nowadays the main source we have on them (other than the limited oral tradition that still goes on in some ashrams) is via written manus...

 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan from Adi Shankara to Abhinav Gupta if 14 verses were added... then the original May also not contain 700 verses... from Krishna time to AdiShankara more than 4000 yrs. Passed....
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz No, the fourteen verses were not added after the time of Adi Shankaracharya. Adi Shankaracharya and Abhinavagupta were simply relying on different recensions of the Bhagavad Gita.
@Tezz It's unclear whether those fourteen verses are authentic or not, but either way they existed even before the time of Adi Shankaracharya.
 
Tezz
Tezz
5:57 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan do these 14 verses speak something differently which may be difficult for Adi Shankara to intrepret...?
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz Haha no, nothing like that. Adi Shankaracharya just used a manuscript that happened to not contain those 14 verses.
@Tezz But Swami Lakshmanjoo did believe that those 14 verses contained some secret knowledge that only the Kashmiri Shavites knew about.
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan some say AdiShankara was born in BCE... some say 44 BC and some 500 BCE... Stephan Knap also says true one is about 500 BC
@KeshavSrinivasan at the time of Shankara there were manuscripts or vocal tradition for Puranas and Mahabharat...?
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz I think the BC dates for Adi Shankaracharya are utterly ridiculous.
@Tezz This is one of the instances where I agree with the dating of Western Indologists.
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan Wikipedia gives two types of Stotra for Advaita GuruParampara... one is starting for Naryayan and another from SadaShiva... which stuti Advaitins use..?
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz We have so many records of disciples of Adi Shankaracharya, their disciples, etc., and their interactions with philosophers of other sects, for instance Ramanujacharya defeated an Advaita philosopher in a debate. So if we assigned Adi Sankaracharya a BC date, we would have to push back the dates of Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya, etc. to a much earlier time. And that wouldn't make sense because there's so much archeological and historical evidence to the contrary.
@Tezz Like there are records of Ramanujacharya's interactions with the Chola king and a Muslim Sultan. So if you pushed Ramanujacharya back earlier than he would live before Muslims even came to India. So making Adi Shankaracharya live in BC time turns the whole timeline into a mess.
 
Tezz
Tezz
6:09 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan what is the reason of saying in BCE...
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz Well, the BC date is the traditional date given in Shankara Digvijayas. But I think that must be due to some kind of calculation error or transcription error.
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan do you think western dating of Buddhas time is correct?... Traditional Buddhist tradition says Buddha was born around 1200 BC....
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz I think earlier Advaitins used to use a Parampara Shloka which started with Vishnu, because Vishnu was the Ishta Devata of Adi Shankaracharya and other early Advaitins. But then later on the Shankaracharya Mutts started adopting Shiva as their Ishta Devata, so the Sadashiva one became more popular. But I'm not sure who composed these Parampara Shlokas. Maybe one of Adi Shankaracharya's disciples.
@Tezz I think the Sri Vaishnava Parampara Shloka was composed by Ramanujacharya's disciple Kurathalvan, the one who had his eyes plucked by the Shaivite Chola king.
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan Adi Shankara considered Vishnu or Shiva as Saguna Brahman...?
@KeshavSrinivasan why he got his eyes plucked...?
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz Adi Shankaracharya considered Vishnu to be Saguna Brahman, or at least the highest form of Saguna Brahman. But he considered Nirguna Brahman to be superior to Saguna Brahman.
@Tezz There was a Shaivite Chola king who was persecuting Vaishnavas, so Ramanujacharya and his followers left Sri Rangam in Tamil Nadu, which was the headquarters of the Sri Vaishnava sect, and went to Melkote in Karnataka. But Ramanujacharya's disiciple Kurathalvan was captured by the Chola king, who wanted to find out where Ramanujacharya was so he could capture him and force him to convert to Shaivism.
@Tezz But Kurathalvan refused to divulge Ramanujacharya's location, so the Chola king plucked out Kurathalvan's eyes.
@Tezz Ramanujacharya, by the way, stayed in Melkote for many years. He waited until that evil Chola king had died of old age, and once the king was dead Ramanujacharya and his followers came back to their beloved Sri Rangam.
 
Tezz
Tezz
6:26 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan Kurathalvan survived or not...?
@KeshavSrinivasan at what age Ramanujacharaya died...?
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz Yeah, he survived. But actually there were two associates of Ramanujacharya who had their eyes plucked out by the king for refusing to divulge Ramanujacharya's location. One was Kuralthvan, and the other was Ramanujacharya's guru Periya Nambi, aka Mahapurna.
@Tezz Kurathalvan survived, but Periya Nambi died.
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan oh Wikipedia says 120 yrs...
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz Yeah, Ramanujacharya lived for a long time.
@Tezz A lot of Acharyas seem to live for a long time. Maybe it's due to Yogic powers.
@Tezz By the way, here is the Sri Vaishnava Parampara Shloka composed by Kurathalvan: "Lakshminatha Samarambham, Natha Yamuna Madhyamam, Asmad Acharya Paryantam, Vande Guru Parampara"
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan You consider Ramanujacharya as Incarnation of Rama [Vishnu] or Ramanuja [Laxamana/ Sesha] ...
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz I consider him an incarnation of Adiseshan, who is himself an incarnation of Vishnu.
@Tezz The Sri Vaishnava Guru Parampara starts with Vishnu, then Lakshmi, then Vishnu's general Vishvaksena, then the poet-saint Nammalwar, then Nathamuni who was the compiler of the Alwars' poems and the founder of the Sri Vaishnava sect, then a few steps later you have Nathamuni's grandson Yamunacharya, and then you have Yamunacharya's disiciples like Periya Nambi, and then you have Ramanujacharya.
@Tezz So the Lakshminatha part refers to Vishnu, and the Natha Yamuna part refers to Nathamuni and his grandson Yamunacharya.
 
Tezz
Tezz
6:38 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan oh thanks for information... it is interesting to know about Guru Parampara...
@KeshavSrinivasan are you initiated in Guru Parampara..?
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz Well, my family belongs to a particular Sri Vaishnava Matham and Acharya, but I haven't received formal initiation into Pancharatra yet.
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan what do Advaita and Sri Vaishnava speak while taking Sankalpa...?
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz I plan to do that when I'm older. It's very important for Sri Vaishnavas to be initiated into Pancharatra, because the Dvaya Mantra is used for Sharanagati; see my question here:
2
Q: Where in the Vedas is the Dvaya Mantra for Sharanagati to the lotus feet of Vishnu?

Keshav SrinivasanIt is well-known that the Sri Vaishnava sect (of which I am a member) emphasizes the path of Sharanagati or complete surrender to the lotus feet of Vishnu, as described in the famous Charama Shloka of the Bhagavad Gita which I discuss here: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja | ...

vishnu vedas vaishnavism mantras sri-vaishnava
@Tezz The only reason I haven't done it yet is because the ritual involves branding your shoulder with the symbols of Shankha and Chakra using hot metal brands.
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan oh God... then it is dangerous painful...
@KeshavSrinivasan who established such System...?
@KeshavSrinivasan how did Vishvaksena taught Namalwar...?
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz The practice of branding the shoulders is described in Pancharatra Agamas. In any case I've heard it doesn't hurt that much. The marks are pretty small and the fire isn't that hot.
@Tezz Concerning the differences in Sankalpams between Advaitins and Sri Vaishnavas, see my question and answer here:
4
Q: How do the different Hindu sects complete the line "Sri Bhagavat Agna"?

Keshav SrinivasanBefore you do any Hindu ritual, you're supposed to begin by saying the Sankalpam, a formulaic utterance in which you tell the gods where you're located in the universe, the time and date when you're performing the ritual, what ritual you'd like to do, the purpose of the ritual, etc. Hindus of all...

rituals vaishnavism philosophy sects sankalpa
@Tezz Vishvaksena appeared before him and taught him the Rahasya Traya or three secrets of Sri Vaishnavism. The three secrets are the Ashtakshari Mantra, the Charama Shloka, and the Dvaya Mantra.
@Tezz Similarly Nammalwar appeared before Nathamuni, as I discuss here:
7
Q: What is the secular account of the compilation of the Alwars' poems?

Keshav SrinivasanThe Alwars (also spelled Azhwars) are a group of 12 ancient Vaishnava saints who lived in Tamil Nadu and are famous for their poetry in praise of Vishnu. The 4000 verses of the Alwars were compiled by the Vaishnava Acharya Nathamuni into a book called the Naalayira Divya Prabhandam, which is cons...

history vaishnavism sri-vaishnava alwar tamil
 
Tezz
Tezz
6:51 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan oh thanks... I was searching for Sankalpa mantras for a long time... and I found it today...
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz Nathamuni was the one who started the Sri Vaishnava sect. He took the teachings found in the Alwars' poems and developed it into the philosophy we now call Visistadvaita. But in Nathamuni's time, the Sri Vaishnava sect was just a tiny group of people in Sri Rangam. Ramanujacharya is the one who turned it into a major sect of Hinduism.
@Tezz By the way, I don't know where these Sankalpam things came from, whether they come from scripture or they're just things composed by various Acharyas or what.
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan I think standard format is in some scripture and Acharyas use it as per their philosophies..
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz Yeah, I think the "Prityartham" format may have some scriptural basis.
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan didn't you find Sankalpa mantra for Shaivite sect and Shakta sect?...
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz No, I didn't. It's harder to find that sort of information because the number of philosophical Shavites and philosophical Shaktas in the world has dwindled compared to the number of philosophical Vaishnavas.
 
Tezz
Tezz
7:07 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan I think this is Shaivite Sankalpa... shaivam.org/siddhanta/fesshivp.html
 
Keshav Srinivasan
Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz That's because a lot of Shaivite and Shakta sects rejected the Vedanta school, compared to the Vaishnava sects which aligned themselves with Vedanta. So when the Vedanta school became the dominant school of Hindu philosophy after the time of Adi Shankaracharya, a lot of Shavite and Shakta sects died out.
@Tezz The website is called shaivam.org, but I think the procedure was just written by an Advaitin, not by a philosophical Shaivite.
@Tezz Most Shaivites today are not philosophical Shaivites, they're just Advaitins who have Shiva as their Ishta Devata.
 
Tezz
Tezz
@KeshavSrinivasan this website tells that both GuruParampara verses are used one after another at the same chanting...
It is typical of advaita that the first guru is called nArAyaNa (vishNu) in the first verse and sadASiva (Siva) in the second.
 
Pandya
Pandya
8:19 AM
Room title & topic improved! Thanks
Btw, I think @KeshavSrinivasan has made change right?
@Tezz ^^
@KeshavSrinivasan room owner doesn't seem much active on this chat-room, can you add me- for how about setting feed for philosophy and vedanta?
 
Tezz
Tezz
9:15 AM
@Pandya yes, KeshavSrinivasan made changes....
 
 
4 hours later…
Tezz
Tezz
1:31 PM
@Pandya In Chandogya Upanishad starting from 7.2.1 .....
Name<<Speech<<Mind<<Will<<Intelligence<<Contemplation<<Understanding<<Strength<<‌​Food<<Water<<Fire<<Akasha<<Memory<<Aspiration<<Prana...
@Pandya why is memory so far while it is closely related with mind will and understandings...
 

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