TRPG General Chat

12:01 AM

It does say that punishing their character doesn't usually work, and you'll probably have to talk to them anyway, though.

BESW

Aye.

Miniman

I think in some ways that's better than not mentioning punishing the character at all, since it's so common an expectation.

BESW

True.

I recently had a new player broach the subject of PC/NPC and PC/PC romances, and the whole group went "...well, we've never really cared about that sort of story, but if we make sure everyone's okay with it beforehand..."

trogdor

huh?

BESW

@trogdor Maybe you were out of the room when she asked that.

trogdor

12:06 AM

I think I was

I do not at all remember a conversation like this

BESW

I'd definitely not suggest playing HGMO on a night she's there, though (if she ever returns at all).

trogdor

I have no idea what that is

BESW

@trogdor Hot Guys Making Out.

trogdor

of course it stands for that,....

nitsua60

@BESW the problem I have is: people (IRL or in-game) seeing one who has vowed celibacy as a challenge to be overcome is a real thing. It's a horrible way to treat people, but it's common enough to have the name "chalice-chipper" in my circles. I felt like the premise of of the answer--"perhaps you've presented your player with what they view as a challenge, not as a person"--was valid. But then OP started responding to comments in indefensible ways....

2

Shalvenay

12:15 AM

hey there @nitsua60

nitsua60

hiya

BESW

@nitsua60 Right; SSD started by just asking for a re-phrasing to better highlight that unfortunate aspect of the situation.

nitsua60

I read the first lines of that answer and thought "yeah, I know that girl." The ones who go specifically for men in formation, looking to either convince them not to take vows or to forsake the vows they've taken.

I also know guys (not men, but guys) who see anyone who identifies as a lesbian as just a larger challenge.

It's not admirable, but neither are many of the behaviors our characters engage in at the table.

@BESW yeah, I was about to jump in and start pointing out some of the reasonable parts when OP started chiming in =\

didn't feel like tethering myself to that anchor before jumping in for a swim

BESW

I think he was trying to invoke the Detached Scientist Fallacy.

Which, to be fair, is still very popular.

Shalvenay

that fallacy being?

Miniman

12:23 AM

Yeah, Google's coming up short on this one.

trogdor

@BESW also, I don't really want to play that regardless of her presence or lack thereof at the table

BESW

It's the idea that a scientist, by virtue of his profession, can--or even should-- be unbiased.

nitsua60

I don't know about that; I just wish he'd left off the pointless line about "weird and secret sex." Without it I think you've actually got some good points that aren't getting airtime in the other answers. With it I see the argument to be made that it's too dismissive to real people and their real problems for its merits to outweigh the harm. (I'm not sure I agree, but I see the argument.) Then the back-and-forth between OP and @SevenSidedDie isn't very seemly, either.

afk a bit--kids' bedtime

BESW

ttfn

@Shalvenay Basically, the idea that it's inappropriate to attach judgement to scientific observation. That when, (eg), taking about a tendency to treat a group of people as objects, it's desirable to refrain from commenting on the desirability of that behaviour. Adopting detached objectivity to distance oneself from one's role as a participant in society whose voice or silence matters.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW @nitsua60 Yeah, that was odd. I was going to let it pass as thoughtlessness that was being handled well enough by the voting—a lot of people visibly rejecting something can be more valuable than removing it, sometimes—but confirming twice that it was entirely intentional corrected my misapprehension that it was just thoughtlessness. Then it's just breaking the rules.

BESW

12:35 AM

Yeah, there's no amount of usefulness which justifies keeping an answer that's Not Being Nice For No Reason: either the answer gets Nicer or it's hammered.

I'd like to see the problem he discussed get some line space, but it needs to be part of a bigger answer and dealt with in a slightly different way.

doppelgreener

1:18 AM

@nitsua60 [retch]

@SevenSidedDie Personally glad to see that answer gone. 8l Thanks very much for handling that how you did.

nitsua60

@doppelgreener I would just submit that the retch-ness of retch-ed attitudes doesn't mean they shouldn't be discussed; sadly that post ended up not being a good vehicle for that discussion.

doppelgreener

1:46 AM

@nitsua60 Yeah. I'm ok with calm discussion of this matter. That particular attitude is pretty bad though.

BESW

2:04 AM

I've got a mainsite question I'd like to workshop here first.

I want to do DFRPG-style worldbuilding (map, places, faces) with a group that's partly physically present and partly online.

It'd be easy to make it a tool recommendation question, but even if they were topical I don't think that'd be the right way to go.

doppelgreener

Oh. Right. I didn't mean like... right now. Just if one started. Go right ahead!

(Probably we'd have such a conversation in NAB anyway.)

@BESW Say what you'd like to do and what the problem is that makes this not a straightforward "ok well, do that then", and ask for help resolving that problem.

BESW

I guess I'm having trouble articulating that.

doppelgreener

what's the problem you're forseeing? i imagine you'd normally whip out a pen and a piece of paper and some prompt cards, but Skype means that's hard to share.

Joel Harmon

I don't really see how it's fundamentally different than asking how to run a game with half physical attendance

BESW

Yeah. I want to have a pre-sketched map with the broad strokes (I know what real-life area we're going to be basing the setting on), and then spend an hour or so filling in specific bits.

@JoelHarmon It's different because of the "collaboratively built map" thing.

We need a real-time-editable, viewed-by-all map, and that's not something we usually incorporate (our games aren't grid-and-mini style).

Joel Harmon

2:16 AM

I suppose that depends on how you run games

I've definitely asked everyone to add a feature to some map I've sketched out

BESW

And if you're unfamiliar with how DFRPG (or, more broadly, Fate Core) approaches setting design, there may be some inaccurate assumptions about the process.

Joel Harmon

I've done Fate, but not DFRPG

BESW

> 1. Choose the city. Self-explanatory.
2. Familiarize and discuss. Of course, this is only important if you’re building the city co-operatively.
3. Reasearch. Only do as much of this as is fun. Find cool things, but don’t sweat the small stuff.
4. Come to a consensus. Again, important mainly in the co-operative process.
5. Come up with Themes. A theme is a statement about something that recurs in the stories you tell about your city, like (from the Baltimore example) The Tourist Veneer Masks the Blight.

Joel Harmon

I had figured something more like dawn of worlds

BESW

From here, with a deeper discussion here (pt 1) and here (pt 2).

For this particular campaign, I've chosen the "city" (neighbourhood) and done a good bit of the "research" (lived there for four years).

Joel Harmon

2:20 AM

so you could get an arbitrarily detailed map for free, presumably

BESW

But I want to make it ours, and not be locked into the reality of the place: I chose it for its narrative potential and atmosphere.

@JoelHarmon Oh, sure. It's on Google Maps, no problem.

But for our purposes, I'd much rather take that and make a free-hand sketch from it. That way I can include just the features I think are important, and leave the other bits blank for the group to fill in as they please.

doppelgreener

@BESW let's use roll20

BESW

@doppelgreener Urrf. I know it's a great tool, but it's got so many fiddly bits that I'll never need, it's hard to find what I do want to use.

But you're right, it's probably a good fit for what we're doing.

doppelgreener

@BESW just for the map drawing.

Joel Harmon

@BESW that makes sense to me; you could basically give them 20% of the real thing as what a normal person would know, and everything they make up is the veiled supernatural stuff

doppelgreener

2:25 AM

But for your question, there's your problem: You want people to sit down together and collaborate and talk and work on a commonly shared map. Because half the group is in another country, you just have a webcam into each side's loungeroom / living area / etc. You can't easily show "the other side" the map, and they can't add to it themselves. How can you let them do that in a telepresence game?

BESW

@JoelHarmon Yeah. Or even the ordinary stuff: like, I'll put "there's a strip mall here," but they get to decide what shops are in it based on what sorts of people/encounters/resources they want in the story.

@doppelgreener Thank you. And I'll add something like "I'm told roll20 would be a good tool for this, but I can't get past all the other fiddly bits to figure out how to use it for that purpose."

(ie, "I have done some research and here's where I ran into trouble.")

I should really dig up my old notes from the last time we did this campaign.

doppelgreener

You'll want to talk about the information we need to share and work together on. Comes to mind it's the following right now:

1. We're going to have a drawn map with certain key landmarks. Everyone needs to be able to draw on it.
2. We're going to be writing who and what are in the landmarks. The mall will be a key landmark, and we're going to agree on some shops that are in the mall.
3. We may designate one person per landmark as the "face" of that location.

BESW

There was some interesting fey politics between the tech college and the university.

doppelgreener

Also, one side sits at a PC, the other side has a couple of tablets/laptops available.

BESW

Oh, and the cemetery. Can't forget the cemetery.

doppelgreener

2:32 AM

(draw on the map and mark landmarks*)

BESW

(There's this awesome old cemetery just across the highway from the university campus. I would go there a lot. On All Soul's Day they'd mark the graves with candle bags and hang the trees with fairy lights.)

doppelgreener

You may want to highlight that it's quite important we be able to sit down and talk and do this together - the ideal is we're just at a table with a big sheet of paper and a marker each, but we don't have that liberty. Passing a gimp file back and forth over email and doing it over a day or two won't work so well.

Joel Harmon

you may need to work out multiple pieces of software

IRC for official text notes, teamspeak for more effective verbal communication (if you don't have any deaf players), etc.

that is to say, I think you should focus on the drawing/labeling aspect

BESW

Typically we do pretty fine with Skype + a Google Document.

Although. @doppelgreener. We might try something like Vent or Teamspeak or Discord next time Skype is giving us trouble.

doppelgreener

@BESW Sure. Yes. Absolutely.

BESW

2:37 AM

(I don't know what The Kids are using these days.)

@doppelgreener If you've got something particular in mind, let me know so that I can make sure I have it on my end before we actually need to use it.

Joel Harmon

drawpile.net looks like it might be ok (haven't tried it), but it seems to feature layers along with arbitrary drawing and text

doppelgreener

@BESW You listed them. Right now is a pretty interesting time: I would say there's an "old empire" of chat services, such as MSN, YIM, AIM, etc - Skype is the last of its kind. The old empire is crumbling. A new empire - consisting of Telegram, Discord, and others like it - is rising, and they're using the bleeding-edge software and interface design principles available, and it puts the old empire to shame. However, the new empire of chat doesn't quite replace the old empire yet.

BESW

Where does Hangouts fall in the chattopolitical landscape?

Shalvenay

@doppelgreener and then there's the weirdo -- IRC

aka the crochety old grandpa who just won't go away

doppelgreener

@Shalvenay IRC is the Immortal Wanderer who shall forever watch the rest of the world changing around it.

@BESW It's halfway between both empires. Some people like it, some don't. Many actively resist using it because they don't like the idea of using Google for that as well.

BESW

2:47 AM

@doppelgreener Wait, which is which?

doppelgreener

@BESW You have laptops/tablets. Dan and I sit at my PC in my room. I have one tablet available, actually.

BESW

Iz Android?

doppelgreener

Windows

BESW

Lovely. So between us we've got two mobile OSes, and two desktop OSes.

doppelgreener

(It's a weirdly shaped room. It's long and narrow, and there's a partition partway through it with a sliding door. One side's clearly intended for a bedroom, the other portion I've turned into a small living area.)

Ye. And phones.

BESW

2:50 AM

@doppelgreener Eh, I grew up with my room as the back half of a converted carport, behind a wall of free-standing bookshelves.

doppelgreener

Huh, interesting.

BESW

It had three levels, with about three inches difference between each, and to get to the back door you had to go through my room from the kitchen.

@doppelgreener You don't have a drawing tablet at home, right?

@JoelHarmon Layers aren't bad.

Being able to write on a different layer than the map would be a boon.

Joel Harmon

in other kinds of software, I've found layers to be great for organizing the baseline, then having a layer for things analogous to people, key points, and (if possible) the hidden layer of DM death traps

BESW

Aye.

I haven't had much opportunity to use digital maps in RPGs, but as a graphic designer I'm quite pleased to see that kind of feature.

(I tried using the fog feature in OpenRPG years ago, but it never worked properly for me and then the campaign fell apart.)

BESW

3:32 AM

Okay, what tags should I put on this question?

dresden-files, online-roleplaying, world-building, map-making, city-design...

0

Q: DFRPG city creation via telepresence

I'm planning a DFRPG campaign for the first time since my group began gathering via telepresence. How can we best approximate sitting around the table to collaborate, talk, and work on city creation1 over a commonly shared map? Here's what I expect we'll need to do: Draw a map of key landmarks...

doppelgreener

@BESW as a matter of fact i do

BESW

Edited to add.

doppelgreener

looks great :)

BESW

I suspect I may have overtagged, but eh. Folks can edit that down if they want.

Adeptus

I haven't used Hangouts for a few years, but I seem to remember it had a collaborative drawing plugin?

may have been named "whiteboard" or something similar... not sure if it allowed for anything more detailed than an actual whiteboard

Sejanus

5:38 AM

morning

Miniman

@Sejanus Hi

trogdor

indeed, greetings

Miniman

Weird mental disconnect: Looking at an answer and thinking "Yeah, this is all correct, and it's a good answer, but it really needs some editorializing."

I upvoted, but I really want there to be a rant that just isn't there.

Magician

@Miniman then realizing it's your own answer posted a year ago.

trogdor

lol

Sejanus

5:41 AM

@Miniman which answer is that? :)

Miniman

@Magician Not in this particular case.

@Sejanus This one.

Sejanus

ah, rollplaying one

Miniman

@Sejanus Huh?

Sejanus

Don't know anything about them :)

BESW

Just a heads-up in case you're unaware: using "rollplaying" to describe RPG players/games with a mechanics-and-tactics focus can easily get folks feeling defensive; it's often used to dismiss such play styles as not true roleplaying.

3

(Indeed, a lot of our mechanics-focused questions come from players who are frustrated that their chosen system is pushing them into particular mechanical choices to keep their characters relevant, whether it's in line with their vision of the character or not.)

BESW

6:20 AM

@Aether [wave]

Aether

@BESW [waves back]

BESW

What's new?

Aether

Not all that much, just lurking...

Sejanus

8:37 AM

@BESW I only had in mind a (very) different style of playing RPGs with no positive or negative connotation

BESW

I figured, so I thought it'd be useful for you to know that particular term has loaded context for some folks.

Sejanus

I wasn't aware it was used in a dismissive manner but I am not surprised sadly. Lots of narrow minded elitists dismissing everything they personally do not like or did not even tried :(

BESW

The "Stormwind" fallacy is better called roleplay vs rollplay.

Sejanus

:))

BESW

Clever spam tries to look like an answer by copying a bit of the question. Flag as spam, vote to delete if you can.

Sejanus

8:49 AM

whats optimizing in this case? making a character good at what they do? (combat, magic, etc.?)

Miniman

@Sejanus Yep.

BESW

> Character optimization (aka CharOp, Char-Op) is the process of crafting a game character using the rules to make them excel at some given role. optimization

Sejanus

as long as they have a fitting backstory i am fine with my players making such characters

it's not that they are unrealistic or something, plenty of people in real life are good at what they do

and of course it does not prevent roleplaying in any way or form

doppelgreener

@BESW kablam

Bear in mind optimization doesn't necessarily mean phenomenally powerful characters - excelling at a particular role could mean excelling at being an averagely powerful wizard who is neither too strong nor too weak for a party of inexperienced players.

BESW

In 3.5 I'd often use system mastery to optimise characters toward not overshadowing other PCs, or toward reducing the number of complex options to choose from mid-conflict. Optimisation is often thought to indicate a purely power-and-efficiency-oriented mindset, but it's really about making smart mechanical choices to support any sort of goal.

doppelgreener

8:59 AM

Sep 18 '14 at 5:12, by Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus Good. Optimization is a dial that system mastery lets you control. Your diviner is demonstrating this; he chose to dial down the form of power most obvious to the group.

BESW

[sigh] The Big Model always confuses me because I can't figure out what it's for.

doppelgreener

(and then some subsequent messages I can't easily link from mobile)

BESW

I think I get its parts and how they fit together pretty well, but I can't grasp the function of the thing. It's like a clockwork mechanism that I can take apart and put back together and everything seems to fit right, but no matter how much I wind it up it never moves and nobody's around to tell me what it ought to be doing when I wind it.

@Shalvenay Bundle of Holding claims Blue Planet is "the most scientifically rigorous SFRPG ever published."

doppelgreener

9:21 AM

> The main benefit of creative agenda is that it focuses play along unified lines. Players who attempt to play the same game with differing creative agenda run a very high risk of ruining each other's entertainment. The player attempting to Step on Up will overwhelm another player's narrativist decisions with misplaced competition; the player following Story Now will consistently take actions which are not optimal strategies, spoiling the other player's gamist decisions.
-- Utility of The Big Model, http://rpgmuseum.wikia.com/wiki/The_Big_Model#Utility_of_the_Big_Model

The citation links are dead.

Going by that it's just a Same Page Tool with lots of parts in it and the page offers no guidance as to what to actually do with the parts. But, if you can figure it out, maybe you can use those categories as things with which to examine the game.

..... but then the criticisms are fair that it's so overly broad it can't really do much to address any specifics at all.

Idk, as far as I'm concerned GNS and this Big Model thing are an awful lot of words that could say what they say in very few.

Like: "There are narrative games which are about a cool story." "There are simulationist games that are about replicating real life, or perhaps a different real life that operates under different circumstances." "There are games that are about having a thrilling game."

Ok, there, that's all I've ever gotten out of GNS and Big Model that I didn't know already.

And I'm not even sure those thoughts came out of GNS.

I came into the RPG landscape in a post-forge time period though. There was a time a few thousand years ago when someone said "hey everyone! look! multiplication symbol!" and peoples' minds were blown. I don't know what it was like to go through that phase and I grew up in a culture that throws around the phrase "three times four" like everyone understands it perfectly.

The Oracle

10:18 AM

0

Q: Why was a theory question closed as too broad?

The meta post concerns this question: Can I understand the 'right to dream' by choices central to the agenda? The question is on hold for being too broad. I really don't see why this is the case, as I explicitly say what kind of answer would be good and provide examples, which are not very verbo...

discussion closed-questions

BESW

10:28 AM

0

A: Why was a theory question closed as too broad?

I don't think it's too broad, but it has a common trait we see in questions that are too broad but trying to narrow themselves artificially: Experience has shown that a question which assumes it already knows what a good answer will look like is artificially narrowing its scope by turning away a...

doppelgreener

10:51 AM

"This approach works well enough for [gamism] but I am not sure if and how I can understand [thing] by this method." What is "this approach"? What is "this method"? "Is it possible, and if yes, what are some examples of the central creative contributions/decisions in simulationist play?" What's the "it" in "is it possible"? What do examples of simulationist play have to do with... any of this exactly? (Surely there's plenty of examples of simulationist play covered in the GNS discourse?) — doppelgreener 10 secs ago

doppelgreener

11:29 AM

@doppelgreener Thanks, edited. The question is: Can I understand sim / right to dream play by identifying the central creative contributions of players. Quote from the question: "what are some examples of the central creative contributions/decisions in simulationist play?" — Thanuir 32 mins ago

eimyr

12:16 PM

hello

BESW

12:32 PM

Rarely have I meant a yawp more sincerely.

doppelgreener

Armor! (lots and lots of it): imgur.com/gallery/4BFDb

eimyr

wow

BESW

@sequoiad Hi! Are you looking for the scifi.se chat?

Ah, I see you found it.

eimyr

1:01 PM

@doppelgreener A couple of points re: Polish winged hussar armour. Wings in museums are all fakes or later reproductions. Original wings were a) singular, never in pairs b) attached to the saddle, not the armour c) strictly parade equipment d) made of feathers, leather and resin, so they didn't survive long. Metal strut ones are the parade equipment from later ages when hussars were no longer combat-viable.

doppelgreener

@eimyr Thanks! This is relephant.

eimyr

@doppelgreener Well, if you're interested, one more factoid: the winged appearance has been confirmed by reconstructive archaeology. Turns out that hussar lances (6-8m long! about 0.5-1.5m longer than contemporary infantry pikes) were always adorned with a banner of specific proportions - all red, very long, thin, split in two. When approaching 30-40km/h in gallop these banners acted like wind-powered whips, producing a sharp cracking sound. "Flying cavalry" was not wing-related at all.

doppelgreener

That sounds very cool. And a little scary (which is probably good). :D

eimyr

Yeah, especially that they were usually charging at lightly armoured pikemen formations. Scary, to the point that mercenary contracts found often had a clause exempting the mercs from fighting against hussars. Too high casualties.

At the same time, some theorise that excessive reliance on these incredibly expensive, specialised units contributed to the fall of Polish state in the 18th century.

doppelgreener

@eimyr wow, nice XD

@eimyr oooof. i could see that happening once the terms of warfare began changing. :(

eimyr

1:15 PM

Yeah, that was the prevalent theory, that firearms made hussars obsolete.

This is demonstrably false, as the armour was impervious to contemporary musket shots and the range of firearms allowed for only one salvo.

doppelgreener

... 8m spears, guns only effective within ~20m, doesn't bode well for the riflemen.

eimyr

The theory that's now more and more accepted is that upkeep of hussars at times of peace was simply too expensive and periods of wars meant horses were getting more and more scarce. Hussars were no longer financially viable.

@doppelgreener Battle of Kirchlom

Momonga-sama

Does anybody have a copy of Black Company Setting?

eimyr

not me

doppelgreener

@eimyr My goodness. That strength & casualties comparison...

eimyr

1:23 PM

That was entirely the point.

A well-trained soldier, best arms and armour the money can get, one simple tactic (charge, back up, grab a new lance, charge again)

I think they were invented by MtG deckbuilders.

Momonga-sama

@eimyr POLAND STRONK!

eimyr

You may also look up the Siege of Vienna, second such victory, but this time more than just one charge. Interesting bit was that the lances were (in letters etc.) said to impale multiple opponents at once, two being bare minimum, 7+ giving you bragging rights

@Momonga-sama I'd prefer Poland interesting. I prefer talking about that than current events.

BESW

1:51 PM

Just ran across something from an old chat log. On the subject of how Fate's mechanics (especially aspects) are just expressions of group understanding, and so anything is a good aspect if the group knows what it represents:

> High Concept: I am Groot.
Trouble: I am Groot.
Motive: I am Groot.
Relationship: I am Groot.
Personal: I am Groot.
+3 Groot
+2 Groot, Groot
+1 Groot, Groot
+0 Groot
Because I am Groot, I get +2 when making physical attacks with my body.
Because I am Groot, I can interact with objects up to one zone away.
Because I am Groot, once per session between scenes I can reduce the severity of a physical consequence I suffer by two shifts.

Mast

2:44 PM

@SevenSidedDie You put player-agency on this question, but the tag doesn't have a description. Was it your intention to put a summary of this answer there and did you just not get around to it yet?

BESW

Tags can be made and used without tag wikis. It's not always ideal, especially with community-specific jargon like "player agency," but frankly the linked answer is a narrow traditionalist view of agency that I wouldn't want to see tied to the tag.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle hope you had a nice weekend, thoughts on gaming this thursday?

BESW

3:00 PM

@sucil Hi!

Also hi, @Mast, @JoshuaAslanSmith, and anyone else I've missed.

Mast

/wave

Joshua Aslan Smith

3:17 PM

@besw cant lurk too much but Hello

xChapx

6:53 PM

Someone have used NBOS Character sheet designer?

xChapx

7:47 PM

Anyone knows a good way to create your custom character sheet?

Joshua Aslan Smith

8:20 PM

@xChapx what system?

xChapx

BRP

Joshua Aslan Smith

sorry no experience with that

If you are asking more generally about designing the layout of a custom character sheet you would probably want to look elsewhere as the tools and techniques used for that (adobe acrobat pro, illustrator, etc.) would actually be outside of our scope

xChapx

I was thinking in just using word, or some kind of grid based editor

Joshua Aslan Smith

I would create a PNG in GIMP and then export it to a PDF and then using a PDF editor add form-fillable fields for re-usability

@xChapx you can very easily use excel or other free variants to handle stats and do the math for derived stats automatically using functions

xChapx

I prefer having a printable cs

Joshua Aslan Smith

8:25 PM

Word is more difficult to maintain the layout on but I think you can anchor images and text to a specfic point and then have fillable boxes in other areas

I mean you could still print the excel sheet but it would just look like a table

xChapx

9:00 PM

I think i am going to edit an exisiting one

Momonga-sama

Huehuueuhe

doppelgreener

9:32 PM

Apparently in the first third of the 1930s, sci-fi had a "radium age" of which I was hitherto unaware: arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2016/05/…

trogdor

I had no idea either, but it isn't surprising

it's had a lot of ages, and will probably continue to change