TRPG General Chat

12:07 AM

@Asteria fun fun fun. I feel like four was when mine were little people, rather than just trying on the aspects of being little people.

Asteria

Fortunately it's my partners child, so I get the freedom of 'noping' when she gets to difficult :P

nitsua60

I've got some of that freedom too... but just because I'm a terrible husband =(

However, take a look at the star-bar >> if yours is anything like mine you've got some seriously-fun times are just around the corner =)

Shalvenay

12:27 AM

hey again @nitsua60

trogdor

@nitsua60 those are a lot of stars XD

nitsua60

@Shalvenay hiya. Daily report: homemade charcoal + shopvac set to "blow" = glowing red steel bar.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 nice!

bad news is that it may be chip-changing time for my school project

nitsua60

@trogdor yup--turns out that day I was at the hospital with my wife was really good for my star-count... silver linings, eh? =)

@Shalvenay I assume this isn't like changing your oil or changing dinner plans...?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 more of a nuisance than anything else

trogdor

12:30 AM

@nitsua60 I guess so

BESW

There's a Beauty and the Beast joke in there somewhere.

Miniman

@BESW Huh?

BESW

@Miniman That film features a fairly dramatic change to its Chip.

Asteria

@nitsua60 I'm looking forward to it....but simultaneously dreading it

doppelgreener

12:59 AM

@nitsua60 Were this an episode of The Amazing World of Gumball, someone else would now be getting injured so you could repeat the experiment.

nitsua60

sorry, all--was afk a bit

@Shalvenay sorry to hear it; @Asteria sounds like every bit of parenting I've been through so far =); @doppelgreener apropos of parenting, I'm sure it'll happen at some point =\

@trogdor -- hi =)

trogdor

@nitsua60 oh, I don't know why you have to say hi now, we were just talking about 30 minutes ago XD

maybe a little more than 30 minutes but still

Asteria

@trogdor you've been acknowledged. Accept the love and attention! ACCEPT IITTT

nitsua60

[trans-pacific love]

trogdor

@Asteria I wasn't rejecting it, sheesh XD

Asteria

1:12 AM

@trogdor [puts away pitchfork] oh....

trogdor

oh pitchforks huh? you know those don't work so well on me

XD

torches are even less effective

nitsua60

because the flipped table creates such a good barrier?

Miniman

@trogdor What about orbital kinetic bombardment? Purely hypothetically, of course.

@nitsua60 Because these things do not work at all on trogdor.

Asteria

Curses! Foiled again

trogdor

@nitsua60 no because I am used to BURNINATING peasants, and they typically use those as weapons

Miniman

1:16 AM

@nitsua60 It might be worth a quick Google of trogdor to get the context here XD

nitsua60

surely the low orbit ion cannon, though...?

trogdor

@Miniman that would probably work if you had ENOUGH of it

and put it in the right place

nitsua60

@Miniman [I was thinking of this instance of Trogdor, hadn't made the mental switch to the referent]

Miniman

@trogdor One rod through the head at orbital velocity wouldn't cut it?

trogdor

@Miniman look man, dragons are tougher than you apparently think

Asteria

1:17 AM

@nitsua60 that sounds amazing

trogdor

and I seriously doubt you have any experience aiming that well with one of those things to boot

besides, have you seen how ripped my one arm is?

XD

Miniman

@trogdor If the Red and Blue Knights can bring you down, this should too. I believe you are exaggerating your resilience in a foolhardy attempt to deceive me into not dropping things on you from space.

trogdor

those guys are liars

I eat knights for breakfast every day

Miniman

@trogdor There's only one way to settle this.

Unfortunately I don't yet own a satellite, so I'll get back to you later.

trogdor

lol

Asteria

1:21 AM

@Miniman rock paper scissors?

trogdor

that game with knights who could kill me is pure propaganda

Miniman

@Asteria Nah, trogdor's unbelievably ripped arm would kill me if we tried that.

trogdor

lol

BESW

For this particular Trogdor, I'd use the orbital friendship cannon, and if that didn't work I'd escalate to the friendship nuke.

3

Asteria

@BESW how colorfully murderous

trogdor

1:23 AM

@BESW yeah that would do it, or just send fluttershy, that is enough by itself

no dragon stands up to this

BESW

trogdor

no no no, you don't even need werebat form

BESW

[cough] I think you mean marebat.

trogdor

wtv

Miniman

@trogdor I might just use Cruel Ruin. That kills everything.

trogdor

1:25 AM

@BESW I think that turn of phrase is silly

BESW

Ah, you're right. The proper conjugation would be isbat.

trogdor

@Miniman I am unfamiliar with this thing,

@Miniman a quick lookup of it indicates it is probably not enough :P

Miniman

@trogdor I suspected this would be the case. Don't worry, you'll know it when it annihilates you and whatever continent you happen to be standing on at the time.

trogdor

it didn't even kill one of four humans it was used on

BESW

@Miniman Is that a Twa Sisters variant I haven't head yet?

Miniman

1:31 AM

@trogdor Unless you happen to be carrying around Shade, Granite, or Flash, this is unlikely to work out well for you.

@BESW Nah, Golden Sun reference.

trogdor

@Miniman nope, just Ryu, Garr, and Rei :P

nitsua60

3:53 AM

@BESW old modules with cool end-fights: The Lost City with its upside-down pyramid under the surface pyramid; A Rose for Talakara from Dungeon #25.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 hey again

nitsua60

hey

BESW

4:14 AM

@nitsua60 Oooer.

doppelgreener

4:31 AM

Sometimes I am horrified by the way voting goes on social issues in D&D questions.

BESW

Are you looking at the 'agency' thing?

Asteria

@doppelgreener what do you mean?

doppelgreener

5:08 AM

@BESW Yes. I can understand the framework some of those views exist in, but that framework isn't a framework I like.

@Asteria We have a lot of social questions. When they're caught up in D&D's zeitgeist, they're fairly prone to receiving answers that suggest people engage in socially very unhealthy behaviours. Those answers are prone to getting upvoted well, incuding to the top.

Oxinabox

Link to this Agency thing?

Oh that agency thing.

Never mind.

I was just (by pure coincence) coming into chat to suggest "I should write up an article on the notion of level of agency."
Not so much on the scale of ability to decide your own action, but related to it.
My extended play group have the notion of Agency, which is more like "ability to take (potentially reasonable, but not nesc expected) actions, and have the world revolve and resolve around them."

Asteria

@doppelgreener ah yes, I have noticed that

BESW

45

Q: What is Player Agency and what is it good for?

Agency, specifically player agency, is a term that frequently comes up as a reason for why a particular rule or GM decision is better than another. How is agency defined in this context and why is it important? (Related: What is railroading and is it a bad thing?)

Also the tag wiki needs love.

Oxinabox

So the notion is that all PC's have significantly more agency than any NPC (exception to the worst of GM-PCs), simply because they have more time to think about their actions and options.
Which is why you can thrown a party into a senario that you (as a GM) see/plan no escape from, and reasonably expect them to escape from it.

Which is a slightly different notion to self-determinism

Adeptus

@nitsua60 The Lost City is set in the Louvre?

Oxinabox

5:23 AM

It does almost verge on Wheel of Time's ta'veren. and being the protaganists/main characters.
PC's have more agency in this sense because they are more real than the world.
If the world is in 720p, the PC's and in 1080p.

BESW

That's... a way of looking at agency that I have't encountered before.

I think it's important to distinguish between character agency and player agency; this is a thing I don't see being done much in the player-agency tag.

Non-diegetic (player) agency may actually remove diegetic (character) agency in some kinds of games--as when my group all agreed that one PC would get replaced with a shapechanger for most of an adventure, and nobody would notice.

There's also personal agency vs plot agency (eg, although Jupiter Ascending is about people attempting to strip Jupiter of personal agency, the film always preserves her plot agency).

In that sense, player agency isn't about winnable scenarios; it's about the choices a player makes influencing how the story unfolds in significant ways.

trogdor

5:45 AM

@BESW and to be clear, the player playing that character was for it, even though the character himself obviously would not be

Oxinabox

@BESW: Care to make a self answered question about the difference between character agency and player agency?

I am interested to know.

In more detail

BESW

It's a touchy, complicated subject that would take a long time to formulate for a Stackworthy post.

Miniman

It's more of a topic for a series of blog articles, really.

BESW

Yeah.

I mean, goodness, just the concept of GMless games, or rotating roles like Lovecraftesque‌, blows the standard player/character agency assumptions out of the water.

Miniman

And then you've got stuff like restricting your own agency (willingly or accidentally), restricting other players' agency, playing in games where agency is naturally restricted...

BESW

5:55 AM

And agency is a BIG deal. The root of "say yes or roll the dice" is the notion that PCs are definitionally who the story is about.

Dog Eat Dog, in a very essential way, is a manifesto about the equation of power with narrative centralism.

When you gain control over the story, then it becomes your story.

Pilgrims of the Flying Temple tosses agency around like a ball; when your character is in trouble, the only control you have as a player is that you pre-defined the broad category of ways your character can get in trouble. The specifics of the event, and the subsequent fallout, are totally out of your control.

Doomed Mind

6:20 AM

mornin'

afternoon'

hullo

hi

6:47 AM

@BESW The Flying Temple must be a Temp Agency. HA HA HA HA HA

BESW

Heheh.

BESW

7:49 AM

@Dyndrilliac [wave]

Dyndrilliac

Hello, @BESW.

BESW

What's new?

Dyndrilliac

Not much. Just checking in, making some comments, posting an answer before bed. I figured I'd stop in to the chat room for a bit in case an extended discussion gets going.

BESW

Cool.

I'm trying to set aside a handful of game design ideas and work on actually prepping for my current game.

...and promptly getting distracted by thinking about how I'd modify Sticks for our campaign.

Dyndrilliac

Interesting. What system is your current game using? My local group just had our most recent session in our current game earlier tonight using the Pathfinder system. I am rotating DM duties with a close friend. Due to our extensive relationship, we consistently find that plots and story arcs we come up with separately are ripe for overlap and interaction almost completely by happenstance.

BESW

8:02 AM

Our primary campaign is using a modified version of atomic-robo Fate Core.

We mix and match other Fate mechanics as appropriate, and sometimes temporarily move to another system entirely (like doing a horror episode in Don't Rest Your Head).

doppelgreener

... or, recently, forcefully smashed our campaign into masters-of-umdaar by running a world by its rules but our characters by Atomic Robo rules, except for a couple of players using characters native to Umdaar. :D

(they're both variants on Fate Core/Accelerated so it worked out fairly well)

BESW

And now we've got a vampire who uses Shadowcraft rules for making blood constructs.

Dyndrilliac

That seems very confusing and unwieldy. How do you decide which systems or combinations of systems to use for a particular session, and how do you keep your players up to speed on how to resolve a particular situation?

BESW

Well, except for very unusual cases like the DRYH session, it's all different iterations of Fate.

Most of the time it's a slightly-modified form of Atomic Robo RPG.

doppelgreener

In the session where we were using DRYH, we recreated our characters in the DRYH system. (Or, more accurately, reinterpreted them.)

BESW

8:10 AM

But, for example, when we visited Umdaar, our PCs kept the Core rules while everything native to Umdaar used the Accelerated rules. They meshed interestingly, but not confusingly.

doppelgreener

Yeah - Atomic Robo is a very close cousin of Masters of Umdaar that uses just about the same mechanics - the character stats just look different and get used slightly differently, but in totally cross-compatible ways.

The family tree goes like.... Atomic Robo <-- Fate Core --> Fate Accelerated --> Masters of Umdaar, where each <-- --> just indicates slight changes being made in how characters are constructed and what they're given, and some peripheral mechanics or new stunt options being offered.

Since all the core mechanics were the same, everything fit together just fine.

BESW

The big difference is, Core uses skills (what things you're good at doing) while Accelerated uses approaches (how you're good at doing things).

Dyndrilliac

Hm. Intriguing. I'm not super experienced with the variations on FATE. The only one I've played is the Dresden Files RPG.

BESW

Approaches are "TV logic," where a Forceful character is equally good at bashing in a door or pushing through social niceties, while a Clever character is equally good at programming and linguistics.

For the rest of our modifications, it's more parallel to how D&D has different sets of rules for magic and psionics depending on your character's focus.

We just treat all of the Fate family as our splatbooks.

Dyndrilliac

I've been considering getting my usual group to try one of the Fantasy AGE systems variants, but for the most part they seem to prefer sticking with their comfort zone, which is D20. Getting them to play games using systems like Shadowrun, World of Darkness, or one of the D6 Star Wars flavors is tough. In many cases I find that they are just scared they will slow the game down due to lack of familiarity.

BESW

8:22 AM

That's fair.

I'm sticking mostly to games with double-digit page numbers these days.

And the simpler to explain as we go (instead of before we start), the better.

You might try them on 13th Age; it's a d20 System game with a lot of narrative flair that you don't usually see in d20, which makes it a good bridge for seeing what a group really latches onto.

Dyndrilliac

I might give that a shot, thanks for the suggestion!

BESW

You might also try free quick-start one-shot games, like Lady Blackbird; the entire rules system fits on the bottom half of each pre-made character's sheet.

Or a system like Great Ork Gods (also free, quick-start, one-shot, small rules) that throws out most of the D&D-style assumptions about how games work: players set difficulties for each other, character death is part of the fun, the goal is to see how Orky you get before it kills you.

It's been my experience that playing quick-start one-shots during time when the main campaign would be halted anyway (like when several players don't show up) is a great way to ease a group into being more comfortable with trying other, larger systems with a bigger commitment front-loaded in learning the system and making characters.

BESW

8:44 AM

@Dyndrilliac This answer may be helpful, though the question isn't exactly your situation.

Dyndrilliac

I'll definitely take that under advisement. I might be able to pull off a similar feat. I do have some minor experience with the Dresden Files RPG, and most members of the group are familiar enough with the novels that I might be able to use that passion to make trying something very different more palatable.

BESW

@Dyndrilliac I recommend the Night Fears pre-made module.

It's free, with half-made PCs and a guide to filling in the rest.

(I'm really big on "free and does a lot of the work for you.")

trogdor

I think a lot of people like those things

especially combined together

Dyndrilliac

9:02 AM

Indeed.

doppelgreener

@Dyndrilliac For me, switching systems from D&D to Fate went like this: we found a part of our stories we really enjoyed. It was not something D&D gave much support to mechanically. We found the parts it gave support to weren't all that interesting. I came across a system that handles the situations we enjoyed much better, I told them all about it and about how it was going to help us do what we actually wanted to do, we tried it out, and we enjoyed it.

BESW

There are other free DFRPG adventures, but they're higher level and thus more complex to jump into.

Aye. If you can pinpoint what your group really gets a kick out of in their RPG experience, and what dissatisfies them, then pitching a system which focuses on the former while mitigating the latter makes it super easy to get folks enthused.

But also, yes, hijacking enthusiasm for a franchise is also a good booster for system-jumping. Enthusiasm for Dresden Files in my group is part of how I got us to jump to Fate--although we quickly realised DFRPG isn't a good fit for our stories, Fate is a good fit.

(I do still have a Dresden Files adventure I'd like to run some time, though it'd likely not be run in DFRPG.)

doppelgreener

@BESW I'm willing

Dyndrilliac

I think the biggest impediment is that the group is overwhelmingly satisfied with the sort of simplistic one-dimensional stories that D&D-style systems tend to be used to tell where the heroes get a micro-quest, the heroes kill monsters while completing said micro-quest, and as they complete additional micro-quests they come closer to completing some sort of larger, more abstract macro-quest. Rinse and repeat ad infinitum.

BESW

So... it sounds like you're the only person in the group dissatisfied with the status quo?

That makes things a bit more complicated.

trogdor

9:10 AM

@BESW yeah we can probably honestly find a better way to do it than that system

and I still like the setting, so all go as far as I am concerned

Dyndrilliac

Not so much dissatisfied. I just think variety is the spice of life.

BESW

@trogdor If MotW wasn't so... gonzo... I'd say it'd be a good fit.

But maybe... I'll have to look at it again.

trogdor

oh monster of the week?

lol, where did the k go

I thought it was pretty neat

though I don't know how much I would like it in an even slightly more long form game

BESW

Yeah, no, I only have one adventure in mind. Maybe four sessions?

It'd be a reboot of the game you and Ben and I tried to run back in the day.

doppelgreener

@BESW what was that one about?

Or, what would this one be about?

BESW

9:17 AM

@doppelgreener This was the one where, in the first scene, a high school guy is babysitting a kid in his neighbourhood when the kid's Skylanders come to life and attack him.

Trogdor played the high schooler, who was a changeling developing illusion magic. In addition to the mystery of the toys, he was trying to get a scholarship at the local college and figure out what was going on with his magic abilities.

doppelgreener

SevenSidedDie has talked a lot in answers about Dungeon World being a game where you play to find out the story and the playere might short circuit it in seconds by, say, lopping the boss's head off in the first minute. That might mean monster of the week isn't suitable if you've got a particular story in mind.

BESW

Ben played the entirely normal neighbourhood handyman.

@doppelgreener Aye. I'm just batting around ideas, at this point.

FAE might be a good fit.

Maybe if DFAE ever materialises...

doppelgreener

Is it attached to the Dresden Files lore? We could plausibly do Strange Fantasies in Fate Accelerated.

BESW

It... sorta is.

I mean, it's deeply tied to Dresden Files lore, but it's tied to bits that are close enough to the generic legends which inspired them that maybe the story could be cut free.

...in fact, one of the big dramatic setpieces that first inspired the adventure, has been roughly replicated by Gravity Falls.

Also, the setting is based very closely on the area I went to college--especially the atmosphere.

doppelgreener

That sounds like something where we can take the useful parts of Dresden Files, and those are answers and secrets you already have as a GM.

trogdor

9:29 AM

@BESW didn't he at least have plans for rune magic eventually?

BESW

@trogdor Eventually, yes.

trogdor

I don't know if I am remembering right, but I thought he broke into using them near the end

BESW

I think the path for his character had him becoming a Valkyrie-like soldier of ~~Odin~~ Monoc Securities.

trogdor

yeah

BESW

But we just barely touched on it before the game fell apart.

trogdor

9:32 AM

the falling apart definitely happened, right when it was getting really good too XD

BESW

@doppelgreener I guess the basic premise is: very low-powered "urban" fantasy in a college neighbourhood, focused on kids and youths trying to solve problems on their own.

doppelgreener

That sounds like a nice game. :)

trogdor

well I think Ben's character was older than mine

not old old, but older

BESW

Yeah, he was mid-20s, I think. But very much the "ally of the kids" figure who doesn't really count as an adult.

trogdor

yeah

BESW

9:38 AM

If we played in Fate, I think a pressure or setting aspect would be something like Grown-ups just don't get it. And Ben's character would've had a conflicting aspect like Still gets it.

doppelgreener

@BESW that's really cute :D

trogdor

twenty something is still certainly an applicable thing

to that theme

certainly still not a kid, but most people will let you get away with acting to some degree like one

@doppelgreener I agree XD

BESW

I can probably dig up the old sketch of the neighbourhood, but it'd probably be better to re-do it with the new group.

doppelgreener

If we use the system where we pick places we want to be the face of, we could wind up with some cool stuff - like one pc kid being the face of the skate park.

BESW

Aye, that'd be the goal.

I'd sketch out the general gist of the place and label some specifics, then we'd add what we want.

doppelgreener

9:53 AM

Cool :)

BESW

(University, technical college, golf course, rich gated housing, poor apartment neighbourhood, marsh, hospital, strip mall, gas station.)

doppelgreener

Amaterasu is sort of a hodgepodge campaign and I enjoy that, but I also would like another adventure that's focused and personal and has emotional stakes and stuff. Like our dfrpg playtest. :)

BESW

Hmm. Wild thought: Maybe this would be a place to hack PK.

trogdor

@doppelgreener I feel that too

that just sums up exactly what I was thinking a few minutes ago XD

like, I am really surprised you just had that same thought

XDXD

doppelgreener

You know what they say, great fools think alike. No, wait...

trogdor

10:01 AM

oh dang, now we won't ever be able to remember what the saying was

BESW

"We have reached peak Pathfinder."

Hrmm.

We should probably finish the Umdaar adventure we're current on, but Amaterasu is at a dramatic-yet-logical pause point.

So taking a break for something else, whether it be DFRPG Minus DF, or Morts, or SG-1, or playtesting one of Greener's hacks, or Paranoia, or Part Time Gods... could easily be done within a couple of weeks.

I wouldn't mind a break from Amaterasu myself.

[takes it to the Skype chat]

BESW

12:56 PM

@nitsua60 [wave]

Shalvenay

hey there @nitsua60

nitsua60

@Adeptus I've always assumed the Louvre was designed after The Lost City fell back in time 200 years through a wormhole opened by the aliens in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.

BESW

Poor MuMu. Less than a 20th of a percent of its goal.

nitsua60

Hey everyone. Happy Memorial Day, US citizens in places where it's still Memorial Day.

Shalvenay

how're things going?

BESW

1:03 PM

@nitsua60 We really need a less... chipper... pithy phrase for "Acknowledgement of commemoration of an important day" than "Happy [day]," for occasions that are important to commemorate, but really aren't appropriate to celebrate.

Memorial Day is borderline, but I have a horrible time finding a pithy-but-appropriate alternative to "Happy Martyrdom of the Báb."

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nitsua60

2:44 PM

@BESW true. And in this case, a phrase is needed that's sufficiently politically ambiguous, too =\

Zachiel

7:57 PM

@nitsua60 A really long one. The 2nd of July is a national holiday.

BESW

9:03 PM

Octopuses may indeed be your new overlords http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/05/octopuses-may-indeed-be-your-new-overlords/ by @annaleen

Tweeted by arstechnica on May 30, 2016 at 2:11 PM

trogdor

10:02 PM

lol

BESW

11:33 PM

@SevenSidedDie Is there a way to un-do an accidental CW?

Miniman

@BESW That sounds ominous.

BESW

@Miniman Happily, it has nothing to do with the Arrowverse.

Miniman

@BESW That one whistled slightly as it hurtled over my head.

BESW

@Miniman The DC TV universe (Arrow, the Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, and now Supergirl) are all broadcast on the CW Television Network.

Miniman

@BESW Ah, I see. Incidentally, do you know if there's any way to search for CW questions and answers? The help centre is proving barren on this topic.

BESW

11:38 PM

> wiki:yes

Miniman

Ah, thanks.

BESW

You can find a nearly-complete list of booleans if you click "Advanced Search Tips" on the search page.

Miniman

Yeah, I missed that one in the list.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW Yes, there's a mod menu option to "remove CW." Never used it before, but I expect it just does the right thing. Is it Patrice's post?

BESW

@SevenSidedDie Yeah.

Patrice explicitly says it was an accident, in the comments on the question itself.

And while you're here, thank you for handling the person/challenge thing.

Miniman

11:44 PM

@BESW The person/challenge thing?

BESW

@Miniman There was a now-deleted answer which said... troublesome things... about the nature of celibacy/asexuality and how it relates to personhood in the RPG narrative.

Miniman

@BESW Ah, I see. I haven't paid much attention to that question because I'm not particularly interested in it, but I should've realised it's a potentially contentious one.

Shalvenay

@BESW that sounds...yeah, not cool. maybe I should create my planned Gnoll and send her over to eat whoever wrote it?

BESW

@Shalvenay It's been firmly modhammered.

Shalvenay

@BESW good.

(sounds like a Warforged got a hold of it ;)

BESW

11:56 PM

@Miniman Yeah, it hits both the "game solutions to player problems" and "nobody can be rational about sex except me" buttons simultaneously.

Miniman

@BESW Still, I just read through the answers, and I was pleasantly surprised - "game solutions to player problems" answers are sitting at low or negative votes, while "actually talking to actual people" answers are prospering.

BESW

Two have already been deleted.

So yes, overall the Stacksorting is working pretty well.

I'm not in love with the highest-voted answer because it combines "talk with the player" and "punish their character," but eh.

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