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4:16 AM
@MonicaCellio I'm giving out badges, want one?
Too bad, I'm giving it to you anyway =)
@HodofHod huh? What kind of badges? :-)
@HodofHod Oh, I see. Thanks! That's an old question; what led you to it tonight?
G'night all. I don't know if I'll be able to make the parsha chat tomorrow -- hope so! If not, I'll catch the transcript later -- not the same, of course, but better than nothing.
4:32 AM
@MonicaCellio Like I said, I was giving out badges =)
@MonicaCellio I'll probably miss it too.
4:52 AM
@HodofHod ?
5:04 AM
@ShmuelBrill want one? I'll see if you're eligible.
@ShmuelBrill you hit the Daily Double! You get two badges for the price of one upvote! It's a silver one too! Nice and shiny
oh thanks.
@ShmuelBrill (in my best knight voice) don't thank me, you're the one who gave such an excellent answer, deserving of two badges!
2 hours later…
7:33 AM
@IsaacMoses mekubal is back!!
8 hours later…
3:27 PM
MESSAGE TO THE PARASHA CHAT ROOM: I will not be able to be at the chat room. If anyone can take my place as the Rabenu Bahya commentary handler it would be appreciated.
1 hour later…
4:54 PM
@HodofHod Was it you who recently upvoted my wheelchair question, making 10?
5:19 PM
Hi, @IsaacMoses, @ShmuelBrill, @jake, @ZeevFelsen!
@msh210 Hi! Parashat Hashavu'a Chat will begin in about 10 minutes, but if anyone wants to start throwing out topics now, feel free.
@msh210 Hi
@msh210 Hey.
@IsaacMoses Okay, here's one: e-daf.com/index.asp?ID=1363&size=1: Rav Yitzchak said, "Rabi Yochanan said, 'Yaakov avinu did not die'". Rav Nachman said, "Did the eulogizers (?) eulogize him, and the embalmers embalm him, and the buriers (?) bury him, all for nothing?". He replied, "I'm doresh a pasuk, 'fear not my servant Jacob... your offspring...': it compares him to his offspring: just as they're alive, so is he".
@msh210 Okay, you're doresh a pasuk. That doesn't answer Rav Nachman's objection!
:2888140, I can't believe you brought this up! It was going to be my first topic to mention!
5:30 PM
@Alex, hi!
@msh210 there is a famous sicha on that question
@ShmuelBrill I'm actually trying to find it now
I mean Rashi addresses it: he says "the embalmers thought he was dead".
5:32 PM
@msh210 Now that I have Abarbanel open here, I see he discusses it as well. Let me read it quickly.
@jake @ShmuelBrill Great
Begin Parashat Hashavu'a Chat #5 - Vayechi 5772
Sorry for the delay
@msh210 ... which leaves much unanswered
Also, I forgot to bring my R' Hirsch today.
@IsaacMoses Yes, and I was planning to bring Tol'dos Yitzchak (R' Yitzchak Karo) and forgot also.
5:35 PM
@msh210 Neither omission is fatal.
@msh210 Per that sicha that @ShmuelBrill found, that's just it: from their POV he was indeed dead, and needed to be embalmed and buried; that has validity according to Torah too. But on a higher level - the one represented in the verse that R. Yitzchak cites - he is indeed still alive.
@Alex "A higher level" that doesn't include the body?
@Alex Yeah... I'm still in the middle of it.
@IsaacMoses The expression there is "his true being (which applies also to his bodily existence)." So primarily it seems to apply on a spiritual level, but it also is true in a certain sense bodily (the Rebbe used to also mention in this connection the story in Kesubos, where R. Yehudah Hanassi would come and recite kiddush for his family after his death).
So maybe Yaakov is like Schroedinger's cat: both alive and not-alive at the same time!
@Alex So they embalmed a body which was actually alive?
5:39 PM
@msh210 ,Okay. According to Abarbanel, R' Yochanan is saying that the name "yaakov" (and "yisrael") never died, since it lives on in that his descendants are called by his name. In this, he is explaining why the Torah never actually says "Yaakov died" like it says by the other Avos; since we are not called by the name of Avraham or Yitzchak, but rather by Yaakov's name.
@jake Does he employ the concept of "a community doesn't die"?
Just to be clear, though, Yaakov himself did die.
@IsaacMoses Don't think so. Just that "his name lives on".
@jake The g'mara says "Yaakov avinu lo mes" (emphasis added, of course)
@msh210 Your point...
@IsaacMoses It was alive only on a level which they couldn't perceive and therefore was irrelevant to them. Same way as halachah deals with what we perceive with our senses, even if scientifically it's inaccurate (as with microscopic bugs, etc.)
5:41 PM
@jake He's saying "Yaakov did not die" means "the Jewish people did not die"?
@IsaacMoses R' Hirsch employs that concept to explain why only a minyan can say, e.g. in Barechu - "May H' the Blessed be blessed for ever and ever" An individual can't guarantee that people will keep blessing God "forever," but a community (represented by the minyan) can.
@msh210 Considering that the prooftext is "zar'o bachayim," that would seem to be an obvious way to understand it.
@IsaacMoses Nice! That's in his commentary on the siddur, I guess?
@Alex Yes.
@Alex except that it says "avinu"
@msh210 , First, you might be interested to know that when Abarbanel quotes the gemara, he leaves out the word "avinu". But even still, I think you misunderstood. The idea is not that the nation lives on, but that Yaakov lives on through having his descendants called by his name.
5:44 PM
@jake Ah, okay, that makes sense. Thank you
If I may switch topics...
@jake So the nation somehow embodies Yaakov? Or it's just strictly talking about the name? I think we have to be talking about the nation here, since there are plenty of individuals named Avraham and Yitzchak.
@jake That actually would make sense even if he did have the word "avinu" in his text. Calling him "Yaakov Avinu" rather than plain "Yaakov" itself implies that we're looking at him more as our forefather than as an individual.
@jake Of course.
@Alex , Yes, as I noted above.
5:46 PM
There is another sicha where the Rebbe asks the same question with regards to Moshe (about whom it says in the Gemara "Moshe lo Meis")
Sorry, that was directed to @Alex
@IsaacMoses ... and the fact that the nation is named for him is either the mechanism by which he lives on through it or a representation of the embodiment.
@ShmuelBrill Hm, that quote is less popular...
@IsaacMoses Not that people are named after him. People are named after Nimrod too. Rather that the nation in its entirety is called by his name,.
@jake (fixed it for you. You can't have punctuation right after the ":###")
5:47 PM
@IsaacMoses Yeah, I figured.
@msh210 Well, it is only a "yesh omrim" in the Gemara - and anyway, they still have to deal with the fact that the Torah actually says "vayamas sham Moshe," unlike with Yaakov
@ShmuelBrill It says "Likkutei Sichos, Shabbos Parshas Vayechi, 5751". Any idea whether it's in Yiddish or Hebrew?
New topic: In this parsha, I think we find our first explicit reference to an angel. ("Hamalach hagoel...")
I think
He answers that the difference between Moshe (and Yaakov) to other Tzaddikim (about whom it says "they are found in all the worlds") is that Moshe (and Yaakov) represent "truth". Therefore (unlike other Tzaddikim), they continue affecting the physical world in a physical way.
@jake As opposed to previous uses of the word "Mal-ach," which could just mean messenger?
5:50 PM
@msh210 Hebrew. (It's in vol. 35, pp. 223ff.)
Anyhow, how can Yaakov say that the angel should bless Efraim and Menashe. Do angels have the power to bless people?
@IsaacMoses Yes.
@Alex Many thanks.
@jake They can be even called by Hashem's name, as in "vayera elav Hashem" according to someone (I forget who)
@Alex I think I saw it in Torah Or (from the Alter Rebbe)
@Alex Perhaps.
5:52 PM
Found it: Rashbam to that verse. (He also mentions the burning bush, where it starts by saying that Moshe saw "malach Hashem" and then continues with him talking directly with Hashem.)
@jake We see that people have the power to bless people (and angels, depending on how you see the "man" Yaakov fought with)
But (1) Like above, how can the angel bless people, and (2) what's the deal with this angel that protects Yaakov. Not Hashem Himself?
@jake Indeed. Praying to angels was supposed to be a step in the downfall of Man toward avoda zara in the early generations.
@IsaacMoses I understand people's blessings as prayers to God that He bless them. But angels praying to God is uncomfortable for me to accept.
Hi, @joshwaxman!
5:55 PM
... and I forgot to post the resources link this time! parsha.blogspot.com/2011/12/vaychi-sources-2012-edition.html
Another problem: Is Yaakov praying to the Angel by asking that the angel bless his grandchildren?
@jake That itself is a whole discussion among the posekim, about tefillos where we address malachim, or Hashem's middos, or whatever (there've been a couple of J.SE discussions on this)
@Alex True. Maybe we should discuss a lighter topic.
...where one explanation is that we're simply asking them to serve as conduits for Hashem's blessing
5:55 PM
@Alex there it's us asking angels. Here it's angels asking Hashem.
@jake barech I suspect is a more general word than "bless (~=ask God for good stuff for someone)"...
one possible answer is that it is Angel
rather than angel
@joshwaxman By that you mean...
Angels are creations. Why can't they pray?
@ShmuelBrill Rocks are creations too.
one moment
@ShmuelBrill Huh? It sounds like Yaakov is asking the angel for a blessing (as jake is saying), not that he's asking the angel to pray to Hashem
meaning Hashem
@Alex What is a blessing if not a prayer to Hashem?
@jake True.
5:57 PM
@Alex I though his question was how can an angel pray?
Not how could Yaakov ask.
this is not proof, but the Samaritans emend the test to Hamelech hagoel oti
@joshwaxman Then why did he switch in the same sentence from calling him "HaElokim" to "Hamalach"?
@jake We also see barech used to mean "do good to, improve" or similar
@msh210 I like.
poetic repetition; kefel inyan bemilim shonot
5:58 PM
@msh210 as by Lavan (I'll try to find the pasuk bl"n)
I see where Malbim actually breaks up the verse into two parts, with "hamalach hagoel osi" joined with the previous verse - Hashem has two ways of taking care of us, supernatural and natural - and then "yevarech" begins a new thought: may Hashem bless them by providing them both kinds of care.
"And the Samaritans emend it to: The King Who Redeems. And I initially would explain: The God, whose angel was the one who redeemed me from all harm."
@joshwaxman Ooh, speaking of Shadal, would you mind taking a crack at this question? judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/12646/…
"And Rabbi S. Dubno explained: "The God" who is mentioned should send the redeeming angel, and this is farfetched."
very difficult to answer al regel achat. but bli neder, i'll give it a shot in the future
6:01 PM
@joshwaxman thanks.
@msh210 You mean "vayevarcheni Hashem biglalecha"? How's that any different than any other occurrence of "barech" in the Torah?
@joshwaxman I like the "prayer to Hashem that the angel protect..." explanation.
@joshwaxman (To reply to a messsage, hover over the right edge of the message, and click on the arrow you find there. It helps people keep track of mi amar el mi.)
@msh210 he.wikisource.org/wiki/… and really anywhere we see Hashem "barech"ing someone, it can't mean "praying on behalf of".
@IsaacMoses got it. thanks
6:03 PM
@msh210 OK, but when we say "baruch Hashem," it can't mean that we're "improving" Him either
@Alex True, there are discussions about what "baruch H'" or "baruch ata H'" means...
@msh210 My understanding is in terms of my answer here.
So we have at least three meanings of the verb: to pray on behalf of; whatever it means in "baruch ata H'", and whatever it means when it says God "barech"ed someone
@msh210 Yes, if I understand correctly.
@jake So whoever-it-was's question, above, "what does it mean for the angel to be praying to God?", might (conjecture) be based on a mistranslation... maybe whatever y'varech es han'arim means "should benefit the kids" (or whatever it means when we say God "baruch"s someone).
6:06 PM
Want a new topic?
@IsaacMoses Sure.
@HachamGabriel, hi!
@joshwaxman By the way, I don't like the idea of Hashem being called "malach". It implies His being subject to someone or something else.
@msh210 Yes, possibly.
@msh210 did I miss everything?
Do we ever see either immediately or later in history that the tribes whose blessings here included a good deal of criticism (Reuven, Shimon and Levi) resented that or otherwise reacted?
@jake He's also called melech (and en melech b'lo am) and av (subject to having kids) and....
6:08 PM
@jake true; however, it depends on how literal one wants to be. sure, it means messenger. but it first came to mean 'celestial being'. enough for now
@msh210 These are ways in which we relate to Him. Do we relate to Him as a messenger?
@HachamGabriel No, just some. :-)
@IsaacMoses Someone (I don't know who) says that Reuven's impetuousness that Yaakov criticized also led to his jumping ahead to take a portion in Transjordan (which the Midrash criticizes as "nachalah mevuheles")
@joshwaxman What do you mean by "first came to mean"
@IsaacMoses ... Did you mean "subservient", @jake?
6:10 PM
@msh210 Yeah, probably.
@Alex But that's further impetuousness, not a reaction to Yaakov's speech... right?
@Alex Saw that in Abarbanel here also.
@msh210 Probably, but it might also be seen as something of a reaction: well, if I'm characterized as impetuous, I might as well continue along that path...
@Alex The former explanation seems more fitting to me, given that these blessings were prophetic characterizations of the essential natures of the tribes
I don't get another concept. It says that Levi didn't carry Yaakov's coffin, as he would later carry the Aron. Then it also says that (one of the reasons) Levi wasn't enslaved was because Paaroh felt they were "special" as they were permitted not to carry the coffin. Because they weren't enslaved, they were the spiritual leaders of Bnei Yisrael in exile. If so, they had a stronger ability to withstand the pressure by the Eigel. Therefore, they became Hashem's servants, and carried the Aron.
6:13 PM
It just seems to me that prophecy or not, someone, sometime, would take such a marked contrast in "blessing" style the wrong way.
@IsaacMoses True, but at the same time they were also prophecies of what they would do in the future (as with Dan's blessing referring to Shimshon).
@IsaacMoses I agree. Not reactions, but more like Yaakov is hinting to future events.
so what was the cause of what?
@ShmuelBrill Brilliant!
@ShmuelBrill In other words, you're saying that the cause and the effect seem to be backwards?
6:14 PM
@Alex Circular.
I'm trying to catch up but I don't get what exactly the topic is...Can any fill me in?
@ShmuelBrill What are you quoting when you say "it says"?
@jake language develops organically, over time. So malach means messenger. Then, it was often used to refer to messenger of Hashem (either angel or, according to Ralbag, prophet). And from messenger of Hashem, a power on high. And so, from there, any celestial force. And thus, Hashem. Here, by the way, is what we find in the Living Torah, from R' Aryeh Kaplan:
@HachamGabriel Parashas Vaychi. We've drifted from topic to topic within that general subject.
6:15 PM
"sending an angel
(Saadia Gaon; Shmuel ben Chofni Gaon). Or, 'The angel who delivered me...' (Rashi; Abarbanel). Some say that the 'Angel' denotes God's providence (Shmuel ben Chofni Gaon; Ralbag; HaKethav VeHaKabbalah)."
Thus, according to Shmuel ben Chofni Gaon; Ralbag; HaKethav VeHaKabbalah, it means Angel with a capital A.
@msh210 I can tell :)
@joshwaxman That makes sense. Before, I thought you were saying that "messenger" developed from "celestial force", which I thought was backward.
@joshwaxman ... and all of that evolution had happened by the time Yaakov was delivering his blessings.
@IsaacMoses right, because people were speaking Hebrew (or proto-Canaanite) for quite a while before. Sort of like how nefesh initially meant neck (see Akkadian; and see azay avar al nafsheinu hamayim hazeidonim) and then developed from there to life and life force, and from there to soul.
@ShmuelBrill They still had bechira, though. They had a leg up on everyone else, true, but they could have chosen to either (a) use their exemption from hard labor to laze around rather than studying Torah, or (b) get swept up like everyone else in the Eigel hysteria. (Knowledge of Torah doesn't necessarily prevent a person from being involved in avodah zarah, after all; see Yeravam and Menashe.) That they didn't made them worthy of getting what was destined for them all along.
@joshwaxman Interesting idea! That's somewhere on your blog, or where?
6:21 PM
OFF-TOPIC: Anyone who hasn't is invited to participate in @ShmuelBrill's survey.
@Alex I don't recall if I've ever posted it. But nefesh as 'neck' is well known. The 'azay avar al nafshenu' and other such pesukim are obvious enough that most likely someone has said it. And perhaps we can add a support to shechita as being from the neck, as a sort of derasha from the related pesukim.
New topic: Is there a midrash that the rest of the shevatim had their bodies brought to Israel to be buried as well as Yosef's at Yetzias Mitzraim?
@jake Yes. Okay, next topic. :-)
Seriously, yes, I'm pretty sure there is: I remember hearing it. I certainly don't know where, though.
@jake here is one such source, that they were indeed in the same coffin as Yosef: books.google.com/…
@joshwaxman That's odd... did they exhume him each time one of his brothers died?
6:26 PM
If so, why does the Torah specify that Moshe brought out Yosef's coffin specifically?
@joshwaxman Dunno where he gets that from, but yeah, Bereishis Rabbah 100:11 says that they did bring all of them up.
@jake One multi-exhumation after the last brother died would have been sufficient.
@jake ki hashbea hishbia? I mean, the Tora doesn't say Moshe took his wineflask out of Mitzrayim, either, but doubtless he did. The Tora lists what we need to know.
@IsaacMoses Sho nuff.
There's also someplace (maybe Sefer Hayashar) that actually lists where each of them was buried - each one is somewhere in his respective tribal territory - but I don't recall the details.
@Alex Levi?
6:30 PM
End Parashat Hashavu'a Chat #5 - Vayechi 5772 But please feel free to keep chatting or to come here to chat about Parasha or anything else any time.
@msh210 Near one of the arei miklat. (Can't be in it - only murderers who died in exile are allowed to be buried there, Rambam says.)
Yeyasher kochachem to everyone for keeping it lively, informative, and interesting as always
@Alex And I guess Shim'on also would have to be in or near one of his cities. (He didn't have land except for cities, right?)
@msh210 Wasn't he supposed to be superimposed on Yehuda?
@msh210 I think some mefarshim say that he was granted the land surrounding the area of Yehudah where his cities were assigned (in other words, that it was one contiguous territory, just as an enclave within Yehudah).
6:32 PM
@IsaacMoses I think he had cities within Y'huda's territory
@IsaacMoses ...but see what Alex just wrote. :-)
If not, then yeah, he could have been buried in one of his cities - there were no restrictions on those.
@msh210 So it was either in that sub-territory or somewhere in Yehuda generally.
Thanks, all, for a very interesting chat!
@IsaacMoses Yes, indeed.
6:39 PM
@IsaacMoses is ani.yodeya not a redirect any more?
@Neal It's still set right with my domain registrar, but I see that it doesn't work. Maybe SE did something to prevent such a redirect into a chat room?
@msh210 re: the upvote. That was me. Recently ive been doing a lot of looking for badge-eligible posts, and upvoting them (if theyre good).
@IsaacMoses idk. it doesnt seem to work anymore :-(
Sorry for missing the parsha chat, everybody, I was traveling and I didn't have service. Looks like it was a good one too.
@Neal The other redirect I have set up is yodeya.yodeya.com to Jewish Life and Learning Meta, and that seems to have broken too. mi.yodeya.com for Jewish Life and Learning is a CNAME, and that still works.
6:46 PM
@Neal I'll bet that they actually did do something to prevent redirection in, either on purpose or not.
... maybe tonight I'll ask about it on MSO.
@IsaacMoses go for it ^_^ can u please send me the link when u do?
@Neal Sure
@HodofHod Thanks.
I seem to lose connection a some point whenever I participate in the chat. Anyways, thanks to all!
@msh210 I was saying that the Torah feels it needs to tell us that he brought out Yosef's body, but not about the rest. Also, if I recall from by Abarbanel-browsing last year, he believes the other brothers were all left buried in Egypt; not taken out at all.
7:00 PM
@msh210 thanks for asking a great question! (as I think about it, though, I'm surprised I didn't upvote it when I first answered it. Maybe I had run out of upvotes for the day, that happens sometimes.
@HodofHod Going for your Electorate badge? :)
@IsaacMoses yes, actually :). Also, I like making people happy, that's why I give special attention to badge-eligible posts.
@IsaacMoses, although, even though I'm going for the electorate badge, I won't upvote a question that lacks quality. I wouldn't sacrifice my integrity or the quality of this site, useless digital baubles notwithstanding. :-D
7:20 PM
@IsaacMoses It's awarded to someone with 25% of his votes on questions. What if he gets the badge and then upvotes some answers: does he lose the badge?
Same question about Unsung Hero and Tenacious
And Generalist: what if a tag is no longer 'top'?
@msh210 I'll bet that question's on MSO somewhere.
... I suspect that badges are awarded due to ~instantaneous conditions and not revoked.
Actually, I strongly suspect that, because I've seen examples of Nice Question/Answer where the votes to explain it aren't there, presumably due to the anti-fraud bot erasing them.
A: How do "badges" work?

SCdFWhat are badges? Badges are a way of recognizing users who contribute to the website. There are many ways to contribute, and consequently, there are many badges. There are three levels of badge ranking. Bronze badges are relatively easy to get, and often help teach users how to use the system...

The part of the above that's relevant to my question is also in:
A: May I lose a badge?

AarobotNo, badges are never taken away. That's part of the site's design. However, if you no longer meet the criteria for a badge (say your "great question" got busted back down to 99 votes), then you won't earn another one of those badges until you "catch up."

Have a grand day, all, and an easy fast.
@msh210 You too
8:10 PM
Q: Weekly topic challenge 5772-12 (week of Vaychi 5772): Ikkarei Emunah: Fundamentals of Belief

msh210This week's topic challenge is Ikkarei Emunah: Fundamentals of Belief. You're encouraged to think of and post good questions on this topic. What is it? There's a single topic that people think about during the week and come up with good questions on. The topic is set each Wednesday or so. What...

1 hour later…
9:23 PM
@Neal Through no intervention of mine, both ani.yodeya.com and yodeya.yodeya.com work again. Must have been a temporary glitch.
10:05 PM
@IsaacMoses lol my ad has had more clicks ^_^
@Neal Nice! I look forward to seeing how they both do after a couple of weeks.
@IsaacMoses ^_^
10:48 PM
anyone aware of a more readable version of the Maskil LeDavid than this one: hebrewbooks.org/19148 ?

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