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1:23 AM
@BarryTheHatchet sorry for the delayed reaction, but consider something like: output=$(date 2>&1); if [ $? -eq 0 ]; then echo $output; else echo fail; fi; or, with a failing command: output=$(datee 2>&1); if [ $? -eq 0 ]; then echo $output; else echo fail; fi
 
 
10 hours later…
10:58 AM
I never understood why such a question is off-topic. It is definitely a question that can be answered (not simply discussed. I was not asking for subjectively about the "best" for this or that, and it is a question related to programming. Also, as written in the help center, my question does cover "software tools commonly used by programmers". So seriously, some of you guys need to quit being pretentious. This question seems perfectly valid. The Stackoverflow community seems more toxic by the day. — Bitious 31 secs ago
 
11:30 AM
> Is there currently any stable C Matrix and Vector libraries available for Windows? Or any bigger C math library which includes these mathematical concepts?
nope, that's pretty objectively off-topic
I was hoping for something a little more interesting than that given the length of the comment
 
@enderland - "You should not design an application based on which design pattern you want to use" - I quite clearly stated that the exercise was to "solidify my understanding of the command pattern", under these circumstances, I think you are wrong. — dangerousdave 1 min ago
sigh. this is the attitude that @RobertHarvey gets so frustrated with. "this design pattern is teh best! how can I use it?"
 
11:47 AM
and the sad part is that's completely irrelevant to the question; the fact that he wants to support undo/redo means some form of command pattern is probably mandatory anyway
er, actually, if it ceases to be the command pattern when you add a second method to the objects, then I would indeed not use the command pattern...
 
@Ixrec there's nothing wrong with wanting to use it as the pattern, but if you decide that you are going to use a specific pattern without first determining why your application supports it... of course you are going to run into problems
 
mm-hmm
 
@gnat that sort of thing is a lot better done by moderators >.>
 
I suppose the real question is how doing an exercise where you've decided in advance to use pattern X can help you understand the pattern better; if there's no decision-making based on the actual requirements of the code, then there's no learning involved
@enderland link? I see no messages from him today on my screen
 
per my reading your edit in rev 5 invalidated about 8-10 prior answers. Have you considered notifying answerers about this (with comments)? Have you considered voting invalidated answers down to help readers see that answers missing the point of the question aren't welcome? — gnat 2 mins ago
 
11:57 AM
I find it bizarre that you're getting so much criticism for editing a question that was objectively off-topic
who cares if we're invalidating answers that were going to get deleted otherwise?
 
it's not that much criticism honestly, only bryan really has reacted (and it looks like he self-deleted his answer?)
 
more than one comment making the exact same point feels like a lot to me given how much participation the average meta Q gets
 
@enderland have you considered flagging?
 
@gnat honestly I don't feel like moderators here are active enough to really put in the effort required in a question like that
maybe that's too defeatist
 
@Ixrec I for one am not happy that this edit cost me 7 repz so far without a slightest chance of refund
@enderland so, let me see. You invalidated answers and let them hanging without doing anything, right. So that now hundreds readers ('cause this mess is in HNQ) can come and see that it's okay to drop anything remotely related to the topic of the question and get their portion of cheap upvotes from lemmings. Thank you
 
12:10 PM
@gnat ???
 
@Ixrec unlike editor I voted on the invalidated answers
 
they were crap answers before the edit too...
which is the whole reason that kind of question is off-topic
 
@gnat I just downvoted 10 of them...
 
@gnat I don't see how enderland's edit makes this more likely than it was before, several of our HNQs already have this problem regardless of whether or not we ignore their on-topic-ness
yes, that situation sucks, which is exactly why I concluded that next time we need to do this sort of editing and downvoting before the lemmings give everything >10 upvotes
 
or moderators who want to be involved other than handling comment flags....
 
12:13 PM
(you're not supposed to mention that!)
(I assume)
brb
 
@Ixrec whatever. Thomas is the only one I see interact much with site, ever, if I didn't know there were more moderators I would suspect that he was the only one here
 
@enderland FWIW Yannis removes about handful blatantly bad questions almost daily (I see this in 10K tools page)
 
@gnat ah, that's nice
 
I very frequently see blatantly off-topic questions get nuked by Yannis or Oded
they have to be exceptionally blatant to trigger nuking, but it definitely helps
 
12:34 PM
Happy Coffee Day and a good coffee to you.
 
@Ixrec Oded isn't a moderator here
and I think it... telling that the third most active moderator publicly visible here isn't even a moderator
 
12:53 PM
@enderland ...I never noticed that
hm, I think I have seen Owens and World Engineer nuke questions a few times
maple_shaft I know from a few meta threads
ChrisF I had no idea was a moderator
and obviously Yannis we all know
 
1:43 PM
@Ixrec right. this is something which has always bothered me here
 
1:58 PM
@Ixrec You want me to nuke something?
Also, although Oded is staff, he's actually a participant in the community. He has significant reputation here. I don't mind his participation as much as other staff who don't actually answer and ask questions here.
 
morning
 
2:35 PM
@Ixrec like this shit
 
3:03 PM
awww python's magic doesn't extend to automatically using custom objects as dictionary keys :(
 
why not?
what are you trying to do?
 
you have to add equality operators and such
why can't python just auto-magically do that :D
 
oh, I'm pretty sure keys have to be strings?
 
right
 
if you provide a __str__ method it may work
 
3:05 PM
yeah you need to define a few methods
but python is supposed to be automagical
 
:P
 
two sips of prosecco and I'm pissed already. FML
 
3:22 PM
[googles prosecco]
Heh... Went to just grab an example from your own comments and found that you've never posted a link to gcc.godbolt.org OR used goo.gl shortlinks in a comment. So this is all just a fairy-tale. Go troll someone else. — Shog9 ♦ yesterday
Poetry.
 
@BarryTheHatchet Eat a Snickers. Your not you when your hungry.
Prosecco (/prəˈsɛkoʊ, proʊ-/, Italian: [proˈsekko]) is an Italian white wine. Prosecco DOC can be spumante ("sparkling wine"), frizzante ("semi-sparkling wine"), or tranquillo ("still wine"), depending on the perlage. It is made from Glera grapes, formerly known also as Prosecco, but other grape varieties may be included. The following varieties are traditionally used with Glera up to a maximum of 15% of the total: Verdiso, Bianchetta Trevigiana, Perera, Glera lunga, Chardonnay, Pinot Bianco, Pinot Grigio and Pinot Nero. The name is derived from that of the Italian village of Prosecco near Trieste...
 
@DeliriousSyntax We pause The Whiteboard for this brief public announcement.
@DeliriousSyntax Yeah, found it.
 
I thought it was going to be some special coffee TBH
 
I'm trying to run UI-tests on appveyor, ran for more than half an hour, cancelled it.
 
What is it, an offshore based Mechanical Turk?
 
3:30 PM
Acqua for Life Acqua di Giò Limited Edition
$110.00
Let's see if I can find the same thing on ebay for under $20 :)
 
I'll sell you the Acqua of Life de la Àmpt for under $20 bucks!
 
2
A: What should be done with these two historically locked [copyright] questions?

TylerHThese questions are laughably off-topic at Stack Overflow today. Pirated Software was certainly off-topic when it was asked, because Primarily Opinion-Based (The POB close reason) questions have always been off-topic to my knowledge. I do agree with Andy in the comments that it would be at home i...

@enderland ^^^ the answer here seems to suggest somewhat slippery idea of what's on-topic at Workplace
 
ty
 
@DeliriousSyntax I'm not me when I'm sober :P
 
@Ampt only if in comes in a cool bottle
 
3:35 PM
#fourdayweekend #bankholiday #easterlolz
 
The pirated software question would not fit at all on any Stack Exchange site, let alone The Workplace. — enderland 19 secs ago
 
You don't think so?
I think it's interesting and answerable
 
@BarryTheHatchet What's your favorite cologne ?
 
@Ampt It is answerable.
At least within the context of a commonly accepted code of professional ethics for software developers.
> Software engineers shall act in a manner that is in the best interests of their client and employer, consistent with the public interest. In particular, software engineers shall, as appropriate...Not knowingly use software that is obtained or retained either illegally or unethically.
Also:
> ... Identify, document, and report significant issues of social concern, of which they are aware, in software or related documents, to the employer or the client.
And:
> Report significant violations of this Code to appropriate authorities when it is clear that consultation with people involved in these significant violations is impossible, counter-productive or dangerous.
 
@DeliriousSyntax the one in Germany
 
3:47 PM
@BarryTheHatchet I can order from Germany :)
 
Would anyone object if I copied and self-answered the illegal software question to Programmers?
 
@DeliriousSyntax that's not a cologne
@ThomasOwens I guarantee someone will
 
@BarryTheHatchet Probably. But would anyone in here object?
 
@ThomasOwens where is that code from?
 
3:51 PM
@BarryTheHatchet Annick Goutal?
 
@ThomasOwens Dunno; I'm not a fortune teller.
(Actually, I am)
 
@ThomasOwens I don't think the question is a good fit for this site. While you can provide an excellent on-topic answer, this doesn't make it a good question. Let's not “rescue” it this way.
 
LightnessBean ist eine Wahrsager
 
@amon I'm curious why you think it wouldn't be a good question.
 
I think that's correct
 
3:53 PM
Lighting Races in Orbit — BarryTheHatchet 5 secs ago
nobody there will get that
 
I would want to edit it a little bit. But overall it seems good.
 
probably shouldn't have bothered
(it's a reference to his last-line typo)
 
translate: LightnessBean ist eine Wahrsager
(from German) LightnessBean is a fortune teller
 
@ThomasOwens but is it eine einen or ein
 
do you think it's a bug or a feature request that the "result" line there, although styled as a reply with the on-hover colours, has no "reply-to" arrow?
 
3:54 PM
@DeliriousSyntax wrong gender. “Wahrsager” is masculine, but “eine” is feminine. It should be “L. ist ein Wahrsager”
 
@amon says you
 
@amon thank you that is what I was wondering
I have trouble with genders I always just look them up when taking tests
I can't remember the gender for every noun
 
@ThomasOwens To be clear, we are talking about Pirated software at a company?
 
@amon Yeah.
It may actually be almost a dupe of this question, but there's a difference between the company supporting it and the company not understanding it.
Same answers apply, though. But I don't understand that closure. Sure, some of the answers are pretty terrible and should be deleted.
 
dunno what to do
house needs tidying and I still have things to unpack
but it's sunny so I wanna go out and do things with it
blergh
 
3:59 PM
@BarryTheHatchet Relax and enjoy your Prosecco
 
@DeliriousSyntax see I can't enjoy it because I poured too much and I have to finish it now before I go anywhere
it is tasty though
cheap too. it was only like £7 for the bottle and it's been all I've drunk (alcohol wise) for three days
 
@ThomasOwens The question seems to ask “what does the community think” which is opinion-based, “what should I do”, which is career advice or possibly on topic for The Workplace, and “what if the company requires using stolen software”, which again is about professionalism. As you've pointed out there is a part of this professionalism that is unique to software engineering, but I don't feel this question is fundamentally about software development.
Depending on how you edited it, it might become on topic. What would your suggested spin be?
 
That's why I thought it had the beginnings of a good Workplace question
but one of their mods was more interested in being rude to me than to examine that possibility further :(
(not for the first time, I might add)
 
@amon I'd get rid of the "what does the community think part", first of all.
 
he should just puts on sunglasses quit his job
yeahhhhh
 
4:02 PM
@BarryTheHatchet Get you a bottle of Henri IV Dudognon Heritage Cognac to wash it down
 
really liri
really
 
The "what should I do" part isn't bad, simply because I can point to an accepted thing that clearly says what you should do.
 
@amon I don't see any reason why the answers to a question like this would be different for Software Developers than any other profession doing the same thing, the exception would be if it related primarily to using libraries against terms of their license (which isn't what the question is)
 
@enderland There is a specific code of ethics for software engineers.
 
The Henri IV Dudognon Heritage is priced at 1 million sterling pounds or US $1,982,300 per bottle.
 
4:03 PM
It's unique to the profession.
 
Must be a good drink
 
@ThomasOwens is there? how many people who are software engineers/developers do you think know of the code?
 
top tip: when you don't know that something's off-topic on your own site, it's not
we seem to take the opposite approach
 
@enderland It's a first year CS sequence topic at my school.
 
and that's why people hate us
 
4:04 PM
So everyone who has graduated from the CS or SE program in the last 15 years.
@enderland But why does the number of people who know that it exists matter?
 
D: I forgot someones birthday is tomorrow gotta find a last minute gift
 
@DeliriousSyntax buy them a pack of wall calendars that they can hand out to people with their birthday circled on it
 
@BarryTheHatchet That sounds pretty good XD
 
@ThomasOwens Not everyone is a Software Engineer, though. The code of ethics was mentioned in my SE course, but only as a side note, not as a central topic. Many people may not feel bound by such a code, even if it only contains common sense.
 
@amon That's true. But why does that matter?
I can point to a canonical reference that answers the question.
 
4:08 PM
because these guys are trying to find a reason to close it, not to open it
 
I think the only way to word it is something quite narrow, ie "what is a professional software engineer's obligation when being forced to use pirated software?"
 
@enderland that would be a very good phrasing
 
much better
 
Everything else would just result in “quit ASAP” answers, as can be evidenced by the mentioned questions
 
except now you've invalidated 10+ answers again
 
4:08 PM
Why "professional software engineer"?
 
@ThomasOwens There is a specific code of ethics for software engineers.
 
.... because anyone who is not a professional software engineer isn't bound by your code?
 
I want to consider myself a "Professional Software Engineer", but 'm no where near
 
Also, because everything else would not be specific to programmers. Everyone has an ethical obligation to stop illegal shit. Only Engineers have that explicit code thing going.
 
> Everyone has an ethical obligation to stop illegal shit.
That depends on your code of ethics.
 
4:11 PM
right, what @amon is saying. my boss has no degree so should he be expected to follow this code too? or does it not apply to him?
 
Not if you read the Code...
> The Code contains eight Principles related to the behavior of and decisions made by professional software engineers, including practitioners, educators, managers, supervisors and policy makers, as well as trainees and students of the profession.
 
@ThomasOwens by professional []
or is my boss a trainee? :)
 
@enderland Does your boss manage or supervise practitioners of software engineering?
 
@ThomasOwens not officially, no
well, I suppose it depends a lot on how you are defining these terms
 
@enderland Uh...are you not a software engineer?
 
4:14 PM
so is someone practicing "software engineering" defined by their job title?
 
Also: "The Code prescribes these as obligations of anyone claiming to be or aspiring to be a software engineer."
@enderland No.
 
> Amon's code of ethics. Applies to everone. Don't be a dick. And give Amon money.
Waiting for €€€ because cleary this code applies to everyone.
 
Practicing software engineering is anyone developing requirements, designing or constructing software, performing configuration management, testing and on and on.
 
@amon lol
 
@amon hopefully you didn't add a > 0 check into your payment system. Here, take -10000€
 
4:16 PM
Practising software engineering is anyone practising software engineering. Quit being deliberately obtuse.
 
107 messages? Geez
 
@Ampt All for you or any for your other socks?
saw that
 
@ThomasOwens Eh, I think this will change once the PE for SE gets more widespread traction
Just like you can't call yourself a civil engineer if you work on roads, there will likely be a legal obligation in the near future that prohibits everyone from being called a software engineer
 
@Ampt I do hope that's true.
I think it's a spectrum, though. I think that everyone developing software should understand the engineering principles. But that doesn't mean you need an engineer to do all software development.
 
That's one of the problems not having any licensing, you can't really say that any code of ethics applies across the board to everyone since there is not any unifying thing
you can have a code of ethics for PE's because that's a thing. "someone writing code" isn't really a thing in the same sense
 
4:21 PM
I want an engineer building the software in my car and plane. But the solitaire app I just downloaded? It would be nice if they understood the basic principles, but I don't care if they are a licensed engineer or even have a degree.
 
hang on
does "engineer" mean something different to you guys? something formal?
 
@BarryTheHatchet Yes. Kind of.
 
AFAIC, a software developer and a software engineer are the same dang thing
 
In some states, "Engineer" is a protected title.
 
and as an engineer in any field you can join the IEEE or whatever if you like but that's only a bonus
 
4:23 PM
It also matters for education.
 
@ThomasOwens heavens
 
it also implies some sense of quality when something is created/approved by an engineer
 
For example, I graduated from a program that was accredited as an Engineering program. That means I had certain requirements to graduate from ABET. A program accredited as a Science program has different requirements.
 
weird
nobody gives a crap about that over here ^_^
you are either qualified for the job or you're not
you are either good at the job or you're not
I guess you could say the merit is on the individual rather than a piece of paper and some words
 
Some companies, especially in more regulated industries, look for people with Engineering degrees.
 
4:25 PM
are they aware that it doesn't work like that overseas?
 
Moreso at entry-level positions, I think.
 
@ThomasOwens I'm curious how that will work if SE becomes an engineering field officially, I have an otherwise accredited degree (but not software engineering)
or for computer science
 
yeah but when you rely on the expertise to keep a bridge from collapsing you want a bit more than X years of experience
 
else with my two CS degrees I would struggle to get a "Software engineering" gig in the US?
@ratchetfreak I would look for accreditations at that point but those don't come from your job title or the choice your Uni course convener made to name the course
(not here)
 
@BarryTheHatchet Probably not. Some companies have ruined "Software Engineer" as a job title. Just about everyone at Google and Facebook and random startups are called "Software Engineer" as a job title.
 
4:26 PM
ok
 
However, very few of those job positions actually require in-depth Engineering knowledge.
 
not all "engineering" requires actual certification/licensure
 
they just need to be able to write linked list and bubble sort implementations off the top of their head
 
@whatsisname In Texas and Florida it does.
 
so stupid
 
4:27 PM
my degree is in mechanical engineering and if I was doing that instead of software, probably 90% of the work doesn't actually require any degree
 
Don't go to Texas and call yourself a Software Engineer unless you're licensed.
 
@ThomasOwens: for the title, not for the actual work
 
realistically this is why it will need to be an actual national (or even international) organization like PE accredidation
 
TIL - and this seems important to know
if I ever wanted to work in the US that is
 
@whatsisname Yes.
 
4:28 PM
if you wanted to work in the US the degree, for most stuff, is just to bolster your credibility
 
@whatsisname yeah. ditto. a lot of it requires a PE to sign off eventually but not really exclusively requiring an engineering degree
 
not even a lot, only some of it
we could be making implantable pacemakers and not a single one of us would need to be a PE
 
Pacemaker Engineer
 
theres a ton of other hoops to be jumped through to show our stuff is safe, but PE is not one of those hoops
 
yeah, I guess that's true, though it matters more if you want to do international stuff
 
4:30 PM
I'm not sure how many PEs are in aerospace, either. Which is a little scary.
Maybe more PEs on the commercial aviation side, or maybe in the airframe manufacturers?
Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed. Those probably have PEs.
 
I would expect for aerospace, if it was sensible, would not require any PEs but would require demonstrations of the products and whatnot
for a bridge it makes a bit of sense because you just build it once and thats it
but planes you can build multiples and test them and show them and use that to declare your credibility/compliance
 
That very well could be. There's lots of modeling, simulation, prototyping, and then first article testing.
 
yeah like if you build 10 unaccredited and nobody dies then they'll let you build another 10
 
but these sorts of things are rarely implemented sensibly so who knows
 
if you worry about that just think how many older engineers are retiring soon and how young the overall engineering workforce will be
 
4:33 PM
certification process for anything aerospace is arduous
 
and ask yourself how many people you know who are engineers want to get their PE
 
@BarryTheHatchet: well, for a lot of stuff you just simply have to do what you claim, whether that is "good" or not is another story and not the govts concern
 
I think the govt is concerned
 
@enderland The only PE I know is actually a program manager now. :\
 
they are not
 
4:34 PM
@BarryTheHatchet You'd be surprised. No one is looking at how good our processes and methods are. They look at how good the product is.
 
they are more concerned that you are following your process, whatever that process is, than whether that process is worth a damn or not
 
They just look for process artifacts to exist.
No one outside of our organization actually looks at how well they are put together.
 
@whatsisname one aspect I think that makes a PE less useful in say mech engineering is you can often make products and test them robustly
 
Do you have a project plan? Good, check. Do you have a test plan? Good, check. Do you have code? Good, check. Do you have {unit, system, integration, regression} tests? Good, check.
 
@ThomasOwens and who dies
 
4:36 PM
@BarryTheHatchet No one dies with what I work on?
 
@ThomasOwens and consequently you are permitted to continue working. excellent!
 
We aren't flight critical.
 
if I make a pacemaker, and I claim my pacemaker is only going to work half the time, and verify it only works half the time, and follow my FDA 21 CFR 820.30 design process along the way
 
@ThomasOwens then you passed
 
then as far as the government goes, thats a perfectly acceptable pacemaker to sell
 
4:36 PM
that's less important of course with easily testable products
 
@BarryTheHatchet Our customers would care, though, about product quality. But from a process perspective, it's about checking the boxes as far as AS9100 and DO178 care.
 
right, the bridge example its only made once so it is reasonable to demand an alternative albeit less objective: who designed it
 
@ThomasOwens and making sure nobody dies
 
and of course, there is plenty of stuff that requires absolutely nothing in terms of credibility, like dentist appointment software, that still has lots of money in it
 
@BarryTheHatchet No. AS9100 and DO178 don't care if people die.
 
4:41 PM
if @ThomasOwens' product fails and people die, they don't care about the people dying part, they care about the not fulfilling the claims of the product part
 
Usually, our customer requirements have safety and reliability stuff in them, though. But if they didn't, eh.
 
its not his products problem to make people safe or not, thats someone elses
 
@whatsisname Yeah. We'd probably have some pretty pissed off customers. And we wouldn't be in business for very long if we didn't work.
 
@ThomasOwens Didn't say they did. "it's about checking the boxes as far as AS9100 and DO178 care" and making sure nobody dies
 
@whatsisname do you work on dentist software? eaglesoft by chance? :)
 
4:43 PM
@BarryTheHatchet: no, the govt really doesn't
 
The government doesn't care if its citizens die?
Do me a favour.
 
not in this context no
 
what are you talking about
 
@enderland: no, usually stuff more miserable
 
Haha
 
4:45 PM
My end customer is usually the government. So I suppose they would be upset if our product that they bought caused someone to be killed, since our product isn't designed to kill people.
 
the govt is a not a single entity/person, and the part of the govt responsible for overseeing all this stuff cares not about people dying or living, it cares about boxes being checked and that's it
 
^ That.
 
If anyone working inside your government doesn't mind citizens dying, you need a new government as quickly as possible.
 
There's someone that cares. Like the NTSB and FAA.
 
Rethinking this whole "move to the US" plan. Sounds dangerous :/
 
4:46 PM
They have rules about making sure that planes don't kill people.
 
yes, but the US is not run by a dictator so if a bunch of people die, the responsibility doesn't land on the products if all the boxes are checked
 
But that's Boeing's problem. If we sell them a part that may explode and crash a plane 50% of the time and we tell them, that's on them...not us.
Someone will come to them and be like "so, why did you buy a product that you were told would kill people 50% of the time?"
 
@BarryTheHatchet: it's not dangerous, it's just ridiculously complicated
 
sounds dangerous enough if the government doesn't give a crap whether you live or die
I'm out of booze bye
 
like I said with my hypothetical pacemaker that failed half the time, I could sell that, but there are other people with other requirements where buying that pacemaker might not be acceptable, and they'd be responsible for it
new example: when the code inspector comes out to do an inspection on a homeowners new deck, he cares only about the check boxes of code compliance and that;s it
now, the code is written to try to make things safe and keep people alive, but thats not the concern of the inspector
as far as the inspector is concerned, the code is what it is and the boxes will either be checked or not
 
4:50 PM
Actually, that's a great example. I'm using that from now on.
 
and if the deck does ultimately fail, and people die, but it met code, neither the homeowner nor inspector are supposed to be held responsible
too bad Barry probably left
 
the goal of the checkboxes is to make it safe
 
sure, but being held accountable and giving a shit are two different things
 
that's the goal of the overall system yes, but at the same time the checkboxes are the ultimate end of the homeowners responsiblity
 
hopefully you hope that nobody will die on that decking, whether you'll be sued over such an eventuality or not
 
4:53 PM
well yeah, people obviously care about people not dying (well most people care), but we can't throw people in prison because they're jerks
 
but overall, no matter how the responsibility is distributed, the rules should ensure -- in aggregate -- that nobody can die through a design fault.
I dunno, criminal negligence is, well, criminal.
 
you're right, they should
 
btw Barry never leaves
 
do they? somewhat. do they at an effective cost to society? maybe.
 
@BarryTheHatchet Yes, they should. But they don't always. I'd like to think that consumers would pick up the slack - if your products kill people (even though you checked all the boxes), you won't be around for long to continue making those products. Either no one will buy your products because they aren't safe enough or people buy your products and realize how much safety is required to not have people be up in arms.
 
4:57 PM
or you get the people who have the ability to write the rules to not give a shit, as the automotive industry did years ago
 
@ThomasOwens but this leads to people suing over a peanut allergy reaction when eating a bag of peanuts
 
if someone dies from your products they can't exactly give you a poor review on Amazon
> 0 stars - literally killed me
 
@BarryTheHatchet it can end up on the news though
 
@ratchetfreak would be better if the processes prevented the death in the first place
going pub
 
but that's the crux of the problem: you can't mechanise good judgement
 
5:01 PM
@whatsisname but processes!
 
@BarryTheHatchet It's got a lot to do with liability - if you meet a lawyer at a bar and they give you legal advice after a few drinks that sucks, and you get in trouble as a direct result, they may be liable for some of that blame
same with someone who's a Licensed structural engineer who looks at your porch and says "Those pillars aren't load bearing" - if you take them out and your house collapses, that person may be liable, even if you didn't pay them
right now the title software engineer doesn't mean anything like that, but it might in the future
 
5:19 PM
Did anyone mention about the assumption of liability? That's why electricians don't want to do residential electrical work. If an electrician comes to your home and does work, they assume liability for all the electrical work they come into contact with, so if they have to open up your circuit breaker box and they see that you've got your fridge on the same circuit as your dishwasher, oven, and dryer, they must do something about it.
And often it involves closing the box and leaving before they've changed anything.
Even if they are there just to change a light bulb.
Also, Happy Coffee Day everyone.
 
6:09 PM
I hate the word performant more than I hate the word utilize.
 
Folks should really utilize more performant words.
 
Hey @Shog9! Can we change our name now?
:D
 
Will it help?
 
We seem to think so on the meta post
let me re-phrase the question - will our meta post get any sort of acknowledgement in the near future? If you guys disagree I'd be dissapointed, but not mad. No acknowledgement at all feels like we're rolling tires uphill.
 
I hate the word leverage
 
6:17 PM
@Ampt it'll be acknowledged somehow
 
or the overusage of it
*overleverage
 
@Shog9 I think that's all we're asking for (in addition to the name change) - there are some really good points in there for both sides, but we'd love to hear the opinion of those who can actually do something about it.
 
6:44 PM
I'm going to utilize your performant leveraging of the stack to provide synergy with our clients.
 
Utilize performant leverage to proactively innovate and solutionize the downselection of workflow blocks synergistically.
 
83
A: How can I tell people to get to the point?

KazYou need to forge a new mission statement which establishes brevity as a core value for your organization. Then hold meetings to find stakeholders who will buy in to the innovative paradigm. Be sure to mark down action items for everyone, and track them so that they follow through with their new ...

 
@gnat o_o WHAT?
 
@ThomasOwens performant leverage made me recall this
 
That has got to be the second best answer on Stack Exchange.
The best is the XML regex answer, clearly.
 
7:11 PM
HTML Regex*
 
Oh, yeah.
 
bursts through wall OH YEAH!
drinks the koolaid
 
7:44 PM
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH YEAH!
 
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