The Whiteboard

Jeff Schaller

01:23

@BarryTheHatchet sorry for the delayed reaction, but consider something like: output=$(date 2>&1); if [ $? -eq 0 ]; then echo $output; else echo fail; fi; or, with a failing command: output=$(datee 2>&1); if [ $? -eq 0 ]; then echo $output; else echo fail; fi

Duga

10:58

I never understood why such a question is off-topic. It is definitely a question that can be answered (not simply discussed. I was not asking for subjectively about the "best" for this or that, and it is a question related to programming. Also, as written in the help center, my question does cover "software tools commonly used by programmers". So seriously, some of you guys need to quit being pretentious. This question seems perfectly valid. The Stackoverflow community seems more toxic by the day. — Bitious 31 secs ago

Ixrec

11:30

> Is there currently any stable C Matrix and Vector libraries available for Windows? Or any bigger C math library which includes these mathematical concepts?

nope, that's pretty objectively off-topic

I was hoping for something a little more interesting than that given the length of the comment

enderland

@enderland - "You should not design an application based on which design pattern you want to use" - I quite clearly stated that the exercise was to "solidify my understanding of the command pattern", under these circumstances, I think you are wrong. — dangerousdave 1 min ago

sigh. this is the attitude that @RobertHarvey gets so frustrated with. "this design pattern is teh best! how can I use it?"

Ixrec

11:47

and the sad part is that's completely irrelevant to the question; the fact that he wants to support undo/redo means some form of command pattern is probably mandatory anyway

er, actually, if it ceases to be the command pattern when you add a second method to the objects, then I would indeed not use the command pattern...

enderland

@Ixrec there's nothing wrong with wanting to use it as the pattern, but if you decide that you are going to use a specific pattern without first determining why your application supports it... of course you are going to run into problems

Ixrec

mm-hmm

enderland

@gnat that sort of thing is a lot better done by moderators >.>

Ixrec

I suppose the real question is how doing an exercise where you've decided in advance to use pattern X can help you understand the pattern better; if there's no decision-making based on the actual requirements of the code, then there's no learning involved

@enderland link? I see no messages from him today on my screen

enderland

per my reading your edit in rev 5 invalidated about 8-10 prior answers. Have you considered notifying answerers about this (with comments)? Have you considered voting invalidated answers down to help readers see that answers missing the point of the question aren't welcome? — gnat 2 mins ago

Ixrec

11:57

I find it bizarre that you're getting so much criticism for editing a question that was objectively off-topic

who cares if we're invalidating answers that were going to get deleted otherwise?

enderland

it's not that much criticism honestly, only bryan really has reacted (and it looks like he self-deleted his answer?)

Ixrec

more than one comment making the exact same point feels like a lot to me given how much participation the average meta Q gets

gnat

@enderland have you considered flagging?

enderland

@gnat honestly I don't feel like moderators here are active enough to really put in the effort required in a question like that

maybe that's too defeatist

gnat

@Ixrec I for one am not happy that this edit cost me 7 repz so far without a slightest chance of refund

@enderland so, let me see. You invalidated answers and let them hanging without doing anything, right. So that now hundreds readers ('cause this mess is in HNQ) can come and see that it's okay to drop anything remotely related to the topic of the question and get their portion of cheap upvotes from lemmings. Thank you

Ixrec

12:10

@gnat ???

gnat

@Ixrec unlike editor I voted on the invalidated answers

Ixrec

they were crap answers before the edit too...

which is the whole reason that kind of question is off-topic

enderland

@gnat I just downvoted 10 of them...

Ixrec

@gnat I don't see how enderland's edit makes this more likely than it was before, several of our HNQs already have this problem regardless of whether or not we ignore their on-topic-ness

yes, that situation sucks, which is exactly why I concluded that next time we need to do this sort of editing and downvoting before the lemmings give everything >10 upvotes

enderland

or moderators who want to be involved other than handling comment flags....

Ixrec

12:13

(you're not supposed to mention that!)

(I assume)

brb

enderland

@Ixrec whatever. Thomas is the only one I see interact much with site, ever, if I didn't know there were more moderators I would suspect that he was the only one here

gnat

@enderland FWIW Yannis removes about handful blatantly bad questions almost daily (I see this in 10K tools page)

enderland

@gnat ah, that's nice

Ixrec

I very frequently see blatantly off-topic questions get nuked by Yannis or Oded

they have to be exceptionally blatant to trigger nuking, but it definitely helps

MetaFight

12:34

Happy Coffee Day and a good coffee to you.

enderland

@Ixrec Oded isn't a moderator here

and I think it... telling that the third most active moderator publicly visible here isn't even a moderator

Ixrec

12:53

@enderland ...I never noticed that

hm, I think I have seen Owens and World Engineer nuke questions a few times

maple_shaft I know from a few meta threads

ChrisF I had no idea was a moderator

and obviously Yannis we all know

gnat

13:17

@Ixrec programmers.stackexchange.com/users?tab=moderators

enderland

13:43

@Ixrec right. this is something which has always bothered me here

Thomas Owens

13:58

@Ixrec You want me to nuke something?

Also, although Oded is staff, he's actually a participant in the community. He has significant reputation here. I don't mind his participation as much as other staff who don't actually answer and ask questions here.

BarryTheHatchet

morning

BarryTheHatchet

14:35

@Ixrec like this shit

enderland

15:03

awww python's magic doesn't extend to automatically using custom objects as dictionary keys :(

Ampt

why not?

what are you trying to do?

enderland

you have to add equality operators and such

why can't python just auto-magically do that :D

Ampt

oh, I'm pretty sure keys have to be strings?

enderland

right

Ampt

if you provide a __str__ method it may work

enderland

15:05

yeah you need to define a few methods

but python is supposed to be automagical

Ampt

:P

BarryTheHatchet

two sips of prosecco and I'm pissed already. FML

Robert Harvey

15:22

[googles prosecco]

Heh... Went to just grab an example from your own comments and found that you've never posted a link to gcc.godbolt.org OR used goo.gl shortlinks in a comment. So this is all just a fairy-tale. Go troll someone else. — Shog9 ♦ yesterday

Poetry.

DeliriousSyntax

@BarryTheHatchet Eat a Snickers. Your not you when your hungry.

Prosecco

Prosecco (/prəˈsɛkoʊ, proʊ-/, Italian: [proˈsekko]) is an Italian white wine. Prosecco DOC can be spumante ("sparkling wine"), frizzante ("semi-sparkling wine"), or tranquillo ("still wine"), depending on the perlage. It is made from Glera grapes, formerly known also as Prosecco, but other grape varieties may be included. The following varieties are traditionally used with Glera up to a maximum of 15% of the total: Verdiso, Bianchetta Trevigiana, Perera, Glera lunga, Chardonnay, Pinot Bianco, Pinot Grigio and Pinot Nero. The name is derived from that of the Italian village of Prosecco near Trieste...

Robert Harvey

@DeliriousSyntax We pause The Whiteboard for this brief public announcement.

@DeliriousSyntax Yeah, found it.

DeliriousSyntax

I thought it was going to be some special coffee TBH

Johan Larsson

I'm trying to run UI-tests on appveyor, ran for more than half an hour, cancelled it.

Ampt

What is it, an offshore based Mechanical Turk?

DeliriousSyntax

15:30

Acqua for Life Acqua di Giò Limited Edition
$110.00
Let's see if I can find the same thing on ebay for under $20 :)

Ampt

I'll sell you the Acqua of Life de la Àmpt for under $20 bucks!

gnat

2

A: What should be done with these two historically locked [copyright] questions?

These questions are laughably off-topic at Stack Overflow today. Pirated Software was certainly off-topic when it was asked, because Primarily Opinion-Based (The POB close reason) questions have always been off-topic to my knowledge. I do agree with Andy in the comments that it would be at home i...

@enderland ^^^ the answer here seems to suggest somewhat slippery idea of what's on-topic at Workplace

enderland

ty

BarryTheHatchet

@DeliriousSyntax I'm not me when I'm sober :P

DeliriousSyntax

@Ampt only if in comes in a cool bottle

BarryTheHatchet

15:35

#fourdayweekend #bankholiday #easterlolz

enderland

The pirated software question would not fit at all on any Stack Exchange site, let alone The Workplace. — enderland 19 secs ago

Ampt

You don't think so?

I think it's interesting and answerable

DeliriousSyntax

@BarryTheHatchet What's your favorite cologne ?

Thomas Owens

@Ampt It is answerable.

At least within the context of a commonly accepted code of professional ethics for software developers.

> Software engineers shall act in a manner that is in the best interests of their client and employer, consistent with the public interest. In particular, software engineers shall, as appropriate...Not knowingly use software that is obtained or retained either illegally or unethically.

Also:

> ... Identify, document, and report significant issues of social concern, of which they are aware, in software or related documents, to the employer or the client.

And:

> Report significant violations of this Code to appropriate authorities when it is clear that consultation with people involved in these significant violations is impossible, counter-productive or dangerous.

BarryTheHatchet

@DeliriousSyntax the one in Germany

DeliriousSyntax

15:47

@BarryTheHatchet I can order from Germany :)

ebay.com/itm/…

Thomas Owens

Would anyone object if I copied and self-answered the illegal software question to Programmers?

BarryTheHatchet

@DeliriousSyntax that's not a cologne

@ThomasOwens I guarantee someone will

Thomas Owens

@BarryTheHatchet Probably. But would anyone in here object?

enderland

@ThomasOwens where is that code from?

Thomas Owens

Hmm. We have this question about one individual at a company installing pirated software, in what seems to be without the full understanding of the business as to what's happening, but it's closed.

@enderland It's the Software Engineering Code of Ethics and Professional Practice, jointly approved by the ACM and IEEE Computer Society.

DeliriousSyntax

15:51

@BarryTheHatchet Annick Goutal?

BarryTheHatchet

@ThomasOwens Dunno; I'm not a fortune teller.

(Actually, I am)

amon

@ThomasOwens I don't think the question is a good fit for this site. While you can provide an excellent on-topic answer, this doesn't make it a good question. Let's not “rescue” it this way.

DeliriousSyntax

LightnessBean ist eine Wahrsager

Thomas Owens

@amon I'm curious why you think it wouldn't be a good question.

DeliriousSyntax

I think that's correct

BarryTheHatchet

15:53

Lighting Races in Orbit — BarryTheHatchet 5 secs ago

nobody there will get that

Thomas Owens

I would want to edit it a little bit. But overall it seems good.

BarryTheHatchet

probably shouldn't have bothered

(it's a reference to his last-line typo)

Thomas Owens

translate: LightnessBean ist eine Wahrsager

(from German) LightnessBean is a fortune teller

DeliriousSyntax

@ThomasOwens but is it eine einen or ein

BarryTheHatchet

do you think it's a bug or a feature request that the "result" line there, although styled as a reply with the on-hover colours, has no "reply-to" arrow?

amon

15:54

@DeliriousSyntax wrong gender. “Wahrsager” is masculine, but “eine” is feminine. It should be “L. ist ein Wahrsager”

BarryTheHatchet

@amon says you

DeliriousSyntax

@amon thank you that is what I was wondering

I have trouble with genders I always just look them up when taking tests

I can't remember the gender for every noun

amon

@ThomasOwens To be clear, we are talking about Pirated software at a company?

Thomas Owens

@amon Yeah.

It may actually be almost a dupe of this question, but there's a difference between the company supporting it and the company not understanding it.

Same answers apply, though. But I don't understand that closure. Sure, some of the answers are pretty terrible and should be deleted.

BarryTheHatchet

dunno what to do

house needs tidying and I still have things to unpack

but it's sunny so I wanna go out and do things with it

blergh

DeliriousSyntax

15:59

@BarryTheHatchet Relax and enjoy your Prosecco

BarryTheHatchet

@DeliriousSyntax see I can't enjoy it because I poured too much and I have to finish it now before I go anywhere

it is tasty though

cheap too. it was only like £7 for the bottle and it's been all I've drunk (alcohol wise) for three days

amon

@ThomasOwens The question seems to ask “what does the community think” which is opinion-based, “what should I do”, which is career advice or possibly on topic for The Workplace, and “what if the company requires using stolen software”, which again is about professionalism. As you've pointed out there is a part of this professionalism that is unique to software engineering, but I don't feel this question is fundamentally about software development.

Depending on how you edited it, it might become on topic. What would your suggested spin be?

BarryTheHatchet

That's why I thought it had the beginnings of a good Workplace question

but one of their mods was more interested in being rude to me than to examine that possibility further :(

(not for the first time, I might add)

Thomas Owens

@amon I'd get rid of the "what does the community think part", first of all.

BarryTheHatchet

he should just puts on sunglasses quit his job

yeahhhhh

DeliriousSyntax

16:02

@BarryTheHatchet Get you a bottle of Henri IV Dudognon Heritage Cognac to wash it down

BarryTheHatchet

really liri

really

Thomas Owens

The "what should I do" part isn't bad, simply because I can point to an accepted thing that clearly says what you should do.

enderland

@amon I don't see any reason why the answers to a question like this would be different for Software Developers than any other profession doing the same thing, the exception would be if it related primarily to using libraries against terms of their license (which isn't what the question is)

Thomas Owens

@enderland There is a specific code of ethics for software engineers.

DeliriousSyntax

The Henri IV Dudognon Heritage is priced at 1 million sterling pounds or US $1,982,300 per bottle.

Thomas Owens

16:03

It's unique to the profession.

DeliriousSyntax

Must be a good drink

enderland

@ThomasOwens is there? how many people who are software engineers/developers do you think know of the code?

BarryTheHatchet

top tip: when you don't know that something's off-topic on your own site, it's not

we seem to take the opposite approach

Thomas Owens

@enderland It's a first year CS sequence topic at my school.

BarryTheHatchet

and that's why people hate us

Thomas Owens

16:04

So everyone who has graduated from the CS or SE program in the last 15 years.

@enderland But why does the number of people who know that it exists matter?

DeliriousSyntax

D: I forgot someones birthday is tomorrow gotta find a last minute gift

BarryTheHatchet

@DeliriousSyntax buy them a pack of wall calendars that they can hand out to people with their birthday circled on it

DeliriousSyntax

@BarryTheHatchet That sounds pretty good XD

amon

@ThomasOwens Not everyone is a Software Engineer, though. The code of ethics was mentioned in my SE course, but only as a side note, not as a central topic. Many people may not feel bound by such a code, even if it only contains common sense.

Thomas Owens

@amon That's true. But why does that matter?

I can point to a canonical reference that answers the question.

BarryTheHatchet

16:08

because these guys are trying to find a reason to close it, not to open it

enderland

I think the only way to word it is something quite narrow, ie "what is a professional software engineer's obligation when being forced to use pirated software?"

amon

@enderland that would be a very good phrasing

BarryTheHatchet

much better

amon

Everything else would just result in “quit ASAP” answers, as can be evidenced by the mentioned questions

BarryTheHatchet

except now you've invalidated 10+ answers again

Thomas Owens

16:08

Why "professional software engineer"?

BarryTheHatchet

@ThomasOwens There is a specific code of ethics for software engineers.

enderland

.... because anyone who is not a professional software engineer isn't bound by your code?

DeliriousSyntax

I want to consider myself a "Professional Software Engineer", but 'm no where near

amon

Also, because everything else would not be specific to programmers. Everyone has an ethical obligation to stop illegal shit. Only Engineers have that explicit code thing going.

BarryTheHatchet

> Everyone has an ethical obligation to stop illegal shit.

That depends on your code of ethics.

enderland

16:11

right, what @amon is saying. my boss has no degree so should he be expected to follow this code too? or does it not apply to him?

Thomas Owens

Not if you read the Code...

> The Code contains eight Principles related to the behavior of and decisions made by professional software engineers, including practitioners, educators, managers, supervisors and policy makers, as well as trainees and students of the profession.

enderland

@ThomasOwens by professional []

or is my boss a trainee? :)

Thomas Owens

@enderland Does your boss manage or supervise practitioners of software engineering?

enderland

@ThomasOwens not officially, no

well, I suppose it depends a lot on how you are defining these terms

Thomas Owens

@enderland Uh...are you not a software engineer?

enderland

16:14

so is someone practicing "software engineering" defined by their job title?

Thomas Owens

Also: "The Code prescribes these as obligations of anyone claiming to be or aspiring to be a software engineer."

@enderland No.

amon

> Amon's code of ethics. Applies to everone. Don't be a dick. And give Amon money.

Waiting for €€€ because cleary this code applies to everyone.

Thomas Owens

Practicing software engineering is anyone developing requirements, designing or constructing software, performing configuration management, testing and on and on.

BarryTheHatchet

@amon lol

enderland

@amon hopefully you didn't add a > 0 check into your payment system. Here, take -10000€

BarryTheHatchet

16:16

Practising software engineering is anyone practising software engineering. Quit being deliberately obtuse.

Ampt

107 messages? Geez

BarryTheHatchet

@Ampt All for you or any for your other socks?

saw that

Ampt

@ThomasOwens Eh, I think this will change once the PE for SE gets more widespread traction

Just like you can't call yourself a civil engineer if you work on roads, there will likely be a legal obligation in the near future that prohibits everyone from being called a software engineer

Thomas Owens

@Ampt I do hope that's true.

I think it's a spectrum, though. I think that everyone developing software should understand the engineering principles. But that doesn't mean you need an engineer to do all software development.

enderland

That's one of the problems not having any licensing, you can't really say that any code of ethics applies across the board to everyone since there is not any unifying thing

you can have a code of ethics for PE's because that's a thing. "someone writing code" isn't really a thing in the same sense

Thomas Owens

16:21

I want an engineer building the software in my car and plane. But the solitaire app I just downloaded? It would be nice if they understood the basic principles, but I don't care if they are a licensed engineer or even have a degree.

BarryTheHatchet

hang on

does "engineer" mean something different to you guys? something formal?

Thomas Owens

@BarryTheHatchet Yes. Kind of.

BarryTheHatchet

AFAIC, a software developer and a software engineer are the same dang thing

Thomas Owens

In some states, "Engineer" is a protected title.

BarryTheHatchet

and as an engineer in any field you can join the IEEE or whatever if you like but that's only a bonus

Thomas Owens

16:23

It also matters for education.

BarryTheHatchet

@ThomasOwens heavens

ratchet freak

it also implies some sense of quality when something is created/approved by an engineer

Thomas Owens

For example, I graduated from a program that was accredited as an Engineering program. That means I had certain requirements to graduate from ABET. A program accredited as a Science program has different requirements.

BarryTheHatchet

weird

nobody gives a crap about that over here ^_^

you are either qualified for the job or you're not

you are either good at the job or you're not

I guess you could say the merit is on the individual rather than a piece of paper and some words

Thomas Owens

Some companies, especially in more regulated industries, look for people with Engineering degrees.

BarryTheHatchet

16:25

are they aware that it doesn't work like that overseas?

Thomas Owens

Moreso at entry-level positions, I think.

enderland

@ThomasOwens I'm curious how that will work if SE becomes an engineering field officially, I have an otherwise accredited degree (but not software engineering)

or for computer science

ratchet freak

yeah but when you rely on the expertise to keep a bridge from collapsing you want a bit more than X years of experience

BarryTheHatchet

else with my two CS degrees I would struggle to get a "Software engineering" gig in the US?

@ratchetfreak I would look for accreditations at that point but those don't come from your job title or the choice your Uni course convener made to name the course

(not here)

Thomas Owens

@BarryTheHatchet Probably not. Some companies have ruined "Software Engineer" as a job title. Just about everyone at Google and Facebook and random startups are called "Software Engineer" as a job title.

BarryTheHatchet

16:26

ok

Thomas Owens

However, very few of those job positions actually require in-depth Engineering knowledge.

whatsisname

not all "engineering" requires actual certification/licensure

BarryTheHatchet

they just need to be able to write linked list and bubble sort implementations off the top of their head

Thomas Owens

@whatsisname In Texas and Florida it does.

BarryTheHatchet

so stupid

whatsisname

16:27

my degree is in mechanical engineering and if I was doing that instead of software, probably 90% of the work doesn't actually require any degree

Thomas Owens

Don't go to Texas and call yourself a Software Engineer unless you're licensed.

whatsisname

@ThomasOwens: for the title, not for the actual work

enderland

realistically this is why it will need to be an actual national (or even international) organization like PE accredidation

BarryTheHatchet

TIL - and this seems important to know

if I ever wanted to work in the US that is

Thomas Owens

@whatsisname Yes.

whatsisname

16:28

if you wanted to work in the US the degree, for most stuff, is just to bolster your credibility

enderland

@whatsisname yeah. ditto. a lot of it requires a PE to sign off eventually but not really exclusively requiring an engineering degree

whatsisname

not even a lot, only some of it

we could be making implantable pacemakers and not a single one of us would need to be a PE

BarryTheHatchet

Pacemaker Engineer

whatsisname

theres a ton of other hoops to be jumped through to show our stuff is safe, but PE is not one of those hoops

enderland

yeah, I guess that's true, though it matters more if you want to do international stuff

Thomas Owens

16:30

I'm not sure how many PEs are in aerospace, either. Which is a little scary.

Maybe more PEs on the commercial aviation side, or maybe in the airframe manufacturers?

Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed. Those probably have PEs.

whatsisname

I would expect for aerospace, if it was sensible, would not require any PEs but would require demonstrations of the products and whatnot

for a bridge it makes a bit of sense because you just build it once and thats it

but planes you can build multiples and test them and show them and use that to declare your credibility/compliance

Thomas Owens

That very well could be. There's lots of modeling, simulation, prototyping, and then first article testing.

BarryTheHatchet

yeah like if you build 10 unaccredited and nobody dies then they'll let you build another 10

whatsisname

but these sorts of things are rarely implemented sensibly so who knows

enderland

if you worry about that just think how many older engineers are retiring soon and how young the overall engineering workforce will be

ratchet freak

16:33

certification process for anything aerospace is arduous

enderland

and ask yourself how many people you know who are engineers want to get their PE

whatsisname

@BarryTheHatchet: well, for a lot of stuff you just simply have to do what you claim, whether that is "good" or not is another story and not the govts concern

BarryTheHatchet

I think the govt is concerned

Thomas Owens

@enderland The only PE I know is actually a program manager now. :\

whatsisname

they are not

Thomas Owens

16:34

@BarryTheHatchet You'd be surprised. No one is looking at how good our processes and methods are. They look at how good the product is.

whatsisname

they are more concerned that you are following your process, whatever that process is, than whether that process is worth a damn or not

Thomas Owens

They just look for process artifacts to exist.

No one outside of our organization actually looks at how well they are put together.

enderland

@whatsisname one aspect I think that makes a PE less useful in say mech engineering is you can often make products and test them robustly

Thomas Owens

Do you have a project plan? Good, check. Do you have a test plan? Good, check. Do you have code? Good, check. Do you have {unit, system, integration, regression} tests? Good, check.

BarryTheHatchet

@ThomasOwens and who dies

Thomas Owens

16:36

@BarryTheHatchet No one dies with what I work on?

BarryTheHatchet

@ThomasOwens and consequently you are permitted to continue working. excellent!

Thomas Owens

We aren't flight critical.

whatsisname

if I make a pacemaker, and I claim my pacemaker is only going to work half the time, and verify it only works half the time, and follow my FDA 21 CFR 820.30 design process along the way

BarryTheHatchet

@ThomasOwens then you passed

whatsisname

then as far as the government goes, thats a perfectly acceptable pacemaker to sell

enderland

16:36

that's less important of course with easily testable products

Thomas Owens

@BarryTheHatchet Our customers would care, though, about product quality. But from a process perspective, it's about checking the boxes as far as AS9100 and DO178 care.

whatsisname

right, the bridge example its only made once so it is reasonable to demand an alternative albeit less objective: who designed it

BarryTheHatchet

@ThomasOwens and making sure nobody dies

whatsisname

and of course, there is plenty of stuff that requires absolutely nothing in terms of credibility, like dentist appointment software, that still has lots of money in it

Thomas Owens

@BarryTheHatchet No. AS9100 and DO178 don't care if people die.

whatsisname

16:41

if @ThomasOwens' product fails and people die, they don't care about the people dying part, they care about the not fulfilling the claims of the product part

Thomas Owens

Usually, our customer requirements have safety and reliability stuff in them, though. But if they didn't, eh.

whatsisname

its not his products problem to make people safe or not, thats someone elses

Thomas Owens

@whatsisname Yeah. We'd probably have some pretty pissed off customers. And we wouldn't be in business for very long if we didn't work.

BarryTheHatchet

@ThomasOwens Didn't say they did. "it's about checking the boxes as far as AS9100 and DO178 care" and making sure nobody dies

enderland

@whatsisname do you work on dentist software? eaglesoft by chance? :)

whatsisname

16:43

@BarryTheHatchet: no, the govt really doesn't

BarryTheHatchet

The government doesn't care if its citizens die?

Do me a favour.

whatsisname

not in this context no

BarryTheHatchet

what are you talking about

whatsisname

@enderland: no, usually stuff more miserable

enderland

Haha

Thomas Owens

16:45

My end customer is usually the government. So I suppose they would be upset if our product that they bought caused someone to be killed, since our product isn't designed to kill people.

whatsisname

the govt is a not a single entity/person, and the part of the govt responsible for overseeing all this stuff cares not about people dying or living, it cares about boxes being checked and that's it

Thomas Owens

^ That.

BarryTheHatchet

If anyone working inside your government doesn't mind citizens dying, you need a new government as quickly as possible.

Thomas Owens

There's someone that cares. Like the NTSB and FAA.

BarryTheHatchet

Rethinking this whole "move to the US" plan. Sounds dangerous :/

Thomas Owens

16:46

They have rules about making sure that planes don't kill people.

whatsisname

yes, but the US is not run by a dictator so if a bunch of people die, the responsibility doesn't land on the products if all the boxes are checked

Thomas Owens

But that's Boeing's problem. If we sell them a part that may explode and crash a plane 50% of the time and we tell them, that's on them...not us.

Someone will come to them and be like "so, why did you buy a product that you were told would kill people 50% of the time?"

whatsisname

@BarryTheHatchet: it's not dangerous, it's just ridiculously complicated

BarryTheHatchet

sounds dangerous enough if the government doesn't give a crap whether you live or die

I'm out of booze bye

whatsisname

like I said with my hypothetical pacemaker that failed half the time, I could sell that, but there are other people with other requirements where buying that pacemaker might not be acceptable, and they'd be responsible for it

new example: when the code inspector comes out to do an inspection on a homeowners new deck, he cares only about the check boxes of code compliance and that;s it

now, the code is written to try to make things safe and keep people alive, but thats not the concern of the inspector

as far as the inspector is concerned, the code is what it is and the boxes will either be checked or not

Thomas Owens

16:50

Actually, that's a great example. I'm using that from now on.

whatsisname

and if the deck does ultimately fail, and people die, but it met code, neither the homeowner nor inspector are supposed to be held responsible

too bad Barry probably left

ratchet freak

the goal of the checkboxes is to make it safe

BarryTheHatchet

sure, but being held accountable and giving a shit are two different things

whatsisname

that's the goal of the overall system yes, but at the same time the checkboxes are the ultimate end of the homeowners responsiblity

BarryTheHatchet

hopefully you hope that nobody will die on that decking, whether you'll be sued over such an eventuality or not

whatsisname

16:53

well yeah, people obviously care about people not dying (well most people care), but we can't throw people in prison because they're jerks

BarryTheHatchet

but overall, no matter how the responsibility is distributed, the rules should ensure -- in aggregate -- that nobody can die through a design fault.

I dunno, criminal negligence is, well, criminal.

whatsisname

you're right, they should

BarryTheHatchet

btw Barry never leaves

whatsisname

do they? somewhat. do they at an effective cost to society? maybe.

Thomas Owens

@BarryTheHatchet Yes, they should. But they don't always. I'd like to think that consumers would pick up the slack - if your products kill people (even though you checked all the boxes), you won't be around for long to continue making those products. Either no one will buy your products because they aren't safe enough or people buy your products and realize how much safety is required to not have people be up in arms.

whatsisname

16:57

or you get the people who have the ability to write the rules to not give a shit, as the automotive industry did years ago

ratchet freak

@ThomasOwens but this leads to people suing over a peanut allergy reaction when eating a bag of peanuts

BarryTheHatchet

if someone dies from your products they can't exactly give you a poor review on Amazon

> 0 stars - literally killed me

ratchet freak

@BarryTheHatchet it can end up on the news though

BarryTheHatchet

@ratchetfreak would be better if the processes prevented the death in the first place

going pub

whatsisname

but that's the crux of the problem: you can't mechanise good judgement

enderland

17:01

@whatsisname but processes!

Ampt

@BarryTheHatchet It's got a lot to do with liability - if you meet a lawyer at a bar and they give you legal advice after a few drinks that sucks, and you get in trouble as a direct result, they may be liable for some of that blame

same with someone who's a Licensed structural engineer who looks at your porch and says "Those pillars aren't load bearing" - if you take them out and your house collapses, that person may be liable, even if you didn't pay them

right now the title software engineer doesn't mean anything like that, but it might in the future

Kit Z. Fox

17:19

Did anyone mention about the assumption of liability? That's why electricians don't want to do residential electrical work. If an electrician comes to your home and does work, they assume liability for all the electrical work they come into contact with, so if they have to open up your circuit breaker box and they see that you've got your fridge on the same circuit as your dishwasher, oven, and dryer, they must do something about it.

And often it involves closing the box and leaving before they've changed anything.

Even if they are there just to change a light bulb.

Also, Happy Coffee Day everyone.

Kit Z. Fox

18:09

I hate the word performant more than I hate the word utilize.

Shog9

Folks should really utilize more performant words.

Ampt

Hey @Shog9! Can we change our name now?

:D

Shog9

Will it help?

Ampt

We seem to think so on the meta post

let me re-phrase the question - will our meta post get any sort of acknowledgement in the near future? If you guys disagree I'd be dissapointed, but not mad. No acknowledgement at all feels like we're rolling tires uphill.

whatsisname

I hate the word leverage

Shog9

18:17

@Ampt it'll be acknowledged somehow

whatsisname

or the overusage of it

*overleverage

Ampt

@Shog9 I think that's all we're asking for (in addition to the name change) - there are some really good points in there for both sides, but we'd love to hear the opinion of those who can actually do something about it.

Thomas Owens

18:44

I'm going to utilize your performant leveraging of the stack to provide synergy with our clients.

Kit Z. Fox

Utilize performant leverage to proactively innovate and solutionize the downselection of workflow blocks synergistically.

gnat

83

A: How can I tell people to get to the point?

You need to forge a new mission statement which establishes brevity as a core value for your organization. Then hold meetings to find stakeholders who will buy in to the innovative paradigm. Be sure to mark down action items for everyone, and track them so that they follow through with their new ...

Thomas Owens

@gnat o_o WHAT?

gnat

@ThomasOwens performant leverage made me recall this

Thomas Owens

That has got to be the second best answer on Stack Exchange.

The best is the XML regex answer, clearly.

Ampt

19:11

HTML Regex*

Thomas Owens

Oh, yeah.

Kit Z. Fox

bursts through wall OH YEAH!

drinks the koolaid

Thomas Owens

19:44

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH YEAH!

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