The Factory Floor

4:06 AM

@bilbo_pingouin I want to make a question about a flower calendar, and how it could be accurate enough to be useful, but I don't know to make it a narrow enough question.

bilbo_pingouin

6:08 AM

@AndyD273 yeah, when readong bowl's comment, I thought about the same... but faced the same problem :)

Tim B

9:51 AM

@AndyD273 Challenge accepted. worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/37655/…

Serban Tanasa

1:43 PM

very floral

AndyD273

2:33 PM

@TimB Heh, ok.

Though, the question seems to be going a couple different ways... the title is talking about a calendar, and the question is talking about a clock.

James

2:51 PM

...so I don't know if I like this being considered off topic or not

5

Q: How to determine where is the nearest shore when standing on the island?

I am creating a book where the character meets a situation where he stands on the small island and there is a fog so he cannot see where is the nearest shore and he needs to get there. Is there a way how to determine this? I need a logical explanation why he decided to go to the one side even if ...

survival

It seems like a perfectly good question to me. It illustrates how part of a world works...

the situation isn't specific to one character I guess is my point.

thoughts

DaaaahWhoosh

it seems more like how to do a thing, no worldbuilding involved

bowlturner

Well I did answer it! I can see where people consider it plot, since the way it was asked was for a person, but I agree, a little editing and it is good to go.

James

@DaaaahWhoosh Does gaining an understanding of how something works count as world building?

I would argue that yes it does

DaaaahWhoosh

eh, it might, I think it would depend on the answers.

might be a better fit for LifeHacks SE

James

Bob, Fred, Jesus and Elminster could all be swapped in for this imaginary character and it wouldn't change the answer...

...well ok if Elminster and Jesus have magic (arcane and divine respectively) it could change things but do you see my point?

DaaaahWhoosh

2:57 PM

I see what you're saying, and I agree with it, I guess in that case it would have to have some greater effect on the world

and I don't see that effect, it's just one guy trying to get somewhere

James

...thats part of the world ;)

DaaaahWhoosh

well, sure, but not a part that most of the world cares about :I

it's essentially plot building

bilbo_pingouin

for me that question is also about a plot

the only worldbuilding part implied in the question is an island with a lot of fog and some landshore nearby

but the question isn't about those

DaaaahWhoosh

It might be bad wording. If it was 'could you locate the shore in fog?' then it might be more on-topic, because maybe there are a lot of people who need to do this on a regular basis

bilbo_pingouin

yeah, rewording might help that question... like how do sailors find a shore, etc.

but that's also what 'on hold' is about

James

3:07 PM

I edited. The core of the question is about finding land in the fog What character is doing it and why isn't really relevant, thus (in my opinion) on topic. Take a look at the edit.

I Stanley

Gotta say, seems on-topic to me tbh. The gap between "Worldbuilding" and "Plotbuilding" is very small. After all, our worlds are for the most part a giant plot device that allow us to generate specific situations

DaaaahWhoosh

@James where did you get those limitations from?

oh, looks like they're from comments

that's fine then. I'm just always worried about people editing in new constraints

AndyD273

I thought it was pretty close to on topic in it's original form, I just wasn't sure of the right wording to fix it.

Even just removing "I have a character" and replacing it with "How would someone" may have been enough

Hehe, So I was away for a bit, just saw @Samuels comment on the stared list about writing X-files. I have to disagree with him, if only because it would be closed as off topic under the character and plot generation reasons.

Now, if the Whooshists would lighten up a bit and allow themselves to have some fun, then we could probably do it ;)

James

3:26 PM

@AndyD273 lol @DaaaahWhoosh you have your own movement.

bilbo_pingouin

@AndyD273 I don't know if I'm a Whooshists... but it's not a question of having fun or not... it's a question of centering ourselves...

plots have a tendency to be opinion-based, multiple, etc.

and they are not about worldbuilding...

AndyD273

@bilbo_pingouin They can be though. Opinion based, sure. Multiple good answers, yeah. But they be about world building still. It really depends on the question.

I mean, what if my plot was "I am going to build a world"?

Building Harlequin's Moon

Building Harlequin's Moon is a science fiction novel by Larry Niven and Brenda Cooper. The novel is set in the distant future as a group of space travellers, marooned in an inhospitable planetary system, attempt to terraform a moon and create a sufficient civilisation on it to refuel their ship so they can continue to their original destination. == Plot introduction == A couple of centuries from the present, artificial intelligences and nanotechnology are in widespread use in the Solar System and in some cases have caused disasters. Some people do not trust these technologies and plan a simpler...

bilbo_pingouin

that is of course true... it always depends on the question. And how it is formulated. But generally "how does [Joe/My character/you name it] do something in those circumstances" is typically not about worldbuilding

@AndyD273 then we are not concerned about how you are going to do it, but what you are going to build

AndyD273

Right, though those are usually easily switched around, like the finding the mainland question above.

bilbo_pingouin

neither are we with why

AndyD273

3:36 PM

Instead of "how does joe do this task?" it can be changed to "this is my world and my constraints, this is what I'm trying to do in my world with my current ideas, is there a better way?"

bilbo_pingouin

@AndyD273 no. Not always.

@AndyD273 well to me it isn't on-topic

and I'll VTC that question

because your world is fixed

you aren't asking to change your world, you are asking how to move around it. So OT.

unless, and that might be the case for the fog question, your question is more about: there's that huge moutain in the middle of my lake, how did the society grow around it

so you are not asking about a single guy facing that issue... but the whole population. And that is part of the worldbuilding

IMO

if it is a situation that is faced by only one person, then it's only a plot and not WB

James

@bilbo_pingouin The whole population of the island is facing the issue...does it matter that the population = 1?

bilbo_pingouin

yes it does.

people living there permanently would know in which direction the main land is...

it's about one character being there temporarily due to some circumstances, and trying to find a way ahead.

James

But it is a situation that could apply to anyone off a mainland anywhere. The problem isn't specific to a single character nor would the answer be. It could apply in any multitude of situations.

for any number of characters

DaaaahWhoosh

it doesn't matter who it could apply to, it doesn't have a long-lasting effect on anything

if it was part of a fogworld culture who travel the oceans, always finding land, then it could be on-topic. If you're asking about the fogworld itself, and if it can be navigated, then that could help you build a culture, so again it's on-topic

bilbo_pingouin

3:46 PM

@James that's why I said that for that specific question, rewording it might do the trick. Because if you have many islands, and population living on them, they'll need to develop some system to orient themselves. And that's affecting the society and thus the WB.

Tim B

It's certainly a good example for story building vs world building :)

AndyD273

@James I agree. It really is about the world, in that the population wants to know how the world works. Take Bowlturners answer. The wind direction is a (real)world thing

Tim B

@AndyD273 Nice way to describe it :)

James

@TimB Yeah it is admittedly borderline but from my perspective it is asking about how the world functions as opposed to what a single person should do, thus on topic.

AndyD273

@bilbo_pingouin I do agree that not every plot question can be fixed, but a vast majority of them can simply by finding the root of the question

DaaaahWhoosh

3:48 PM

I think the main point here is that we all agree the question can be on-topic, we just disagree on if it was in its original wording

James

@DaaaahWhoosh I would agree with that

bilbo_pingouin

remember that questions gets put on-hold. And the new Story points to a link to how the question might be reopened, when the OP fixes their question and wording. That's IMO, how we should proceed. And not fix it ourselves, as we may deviate from the original intend of the OP.

So please add more details to the meta discussion about how to reopen story-based questions

AndyD273

@bilbo_pingouin I do agree with this. I also suggested that the OP visit the chat if he wants help with wording.

bilbo_pingouin

@DaaaahWhoosh that might be a good exercice for meta... write the same question in various ways, and ask people to upvote and downvote whether they are on or off-topic in the given formulation

DaaaahWhoosh

@bilbo_pingouin yeah, that could be interesting

AndyD273

3:54 PM

@bilbo_pingouin I'll go one further. I propose, as an exercise, getting a list of topics and get participants to to write their own examples of an off topic version and an on topic version

As we can see, there is some grey area in some of these, so some of the borderline questions will probably have a lot of both up and down votes

which doesn't tell us much, other than opinions vary

DaaaahWhoosh

either exercise sounds fun and educational, I would participate in both

James

4:19 PM

I will predict that the result will demonstrate that there is significant grey area (and always will be)

DaaaahWhoosh

on the contrary, I think it would show that I am right

because everything shows that

James

@DaaaahWhoosh of course you do lol

DaaaahWhoosh

but really, if people have to actually write their own off-topic reasons, maybe they'll learn that they can't just assume the OP is being on-topic

though I guess maybe the people who don't think off-topic things are off-topic won't be able to participate

AndyD273

@DaaaahWhoosh I'm sorry, but that's a double negative. You need to go sit down and think about what you've done. ;)

DaaaahWhoosh

4:37 PM

@AndyD273 Believe me, I thought long and hard about it. And I don't think it's incorrect. Sometimes, you can't not use double negatives.

bilbo_pingouin

4:52 PM

I'll start it later today... if no one does it before :-)

AndyD273

5:10 PM

Here's an example of one that probably can't be fixed :)

0

Q: Could the Siberian Eruption Get Any Bigger?

252 million years ago, Siberia erupted, releasing enough lava to fill in a volume anywhere between one and four million cubic kilometers. Any time someone thinks "large igneous province", the Siberian Traps seem to be the first thing on his mind. But the actual largest igneous province is the O...

volcanoes

DaaaahWhoosh

I sort of disagree with that closure...

or, I guess, holding

Tim B

hmm

the problem is that the answer isn't very interesting. It's "yes"

although if you dug into why it could get interesting

The correct wording would be "how could"

or "what change could"

although you'd need to be careful to keep the scope constrained

DaaaahWhoosh

it may actually be more on-topic on Earth Science...

Tim B

yep

AndyD273

Do we have a migration path over there?

Tim B

5:18 PM

Does more on topic there mean it's off topic here?

AndyD273

@TimB I prefer "if you want it to be, why not?" That way you don't look as lazy.

Tim B

there are no preset migrations paths from worldbuilding to anywhere

AndyD273

@TimB As a general rule, no. It can be on topic in both places.

Tim B

mods can migrate questions to any site on the network though

@AndyD273 I think that answered the migration question :). Things have to be MUCH more on topic on the other site or off topic here to be worth migrating

AndyD273

@TimB Not to sound whooshist, but I think it's lacking constraint at the very least

DaaaahWhoosh

5:21 PM

@AndyD273 You filthy Whooshist!

Tim B

Sure but it would be just as lacking in constraint there

if it's a bad question it's bad anywhere

in general a migration is only called for if something is simultaneously a bad question here and a good question elsewhere

AndyD273

Do other sites care about constraints as much?

DaaaahWhoosh

I still don't think it's a bad question

Tim B

for example when someone accidentally posts a coding question here and I migrate it

@DaaaahWhoosh it could do with some work

AndyD273

@DaaaahWhoosh Can you think of another answer besides "yes"?

Tim B

5:24 PM

note that a question can be bad (downvote) but not bad (close)

AndyD273

@TimB That's true. I rarely use the downvote and kind of forget that it's there

Tim B

close means off topic/not answerable/too broad/whatever

DaaaahWhoosh

@AndyD273 Well, I don't know the answer, so it could be 'no'

Tim B

downvote means "don't like it as a question"

Hohmannfan

How is the site design thingy going?

DaaaahWhoosh

5:30 PM

@Hohmannfan every time someone asks, they move it back another month

Hohmannfan

Oh no!

bowlturner

Two Weeks. It's always 2 weeks...

Hohmannfan

6-8 weeks?

DaaaahWhoosh

5:50 PM

oh, looks like that volcano question just got a somewhat invasive edit

anyone want to confirm/deny my suspicions?

Hohmannfan

6:09 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh That seems like a border case. I am not sure about this one.

DaaaahWhoosh

I just think it presumes a bit too much

Hohmannfan

Edits from high-rep users do not appear in suggested edits, correct?

DaaaahWhoosh

I guess not, since they just go through

I think we're supposed to trust high-rep users to do the right thing

Hohmannfan

I would like to have an option to let my edits pass through review first in some circumstances

I do not always do the right thing :)

DaaaahWhoosh

@Hohmannfan I definitely agree with you there, I often find myself fallible

Hohmannfan

6:17 PM

Just a check-box labelled "review before commit" or something. That would be great to have.

AndyD273

I like this idea too

Tim B

If in doubt don't do it :)

that's the same way moderators work since we also bypass the reviews

only we do it on everything :)

you can always ask in chat or meta for a 2nd opinion

Hohmannfan

@TimB I was thinking more about that even if I am pretty sure what to do, I may have worded the edit poorly as a non-native speaker of English.

AndyD273

6:33 PM

We don't really need it for a spelling correction or basic grammar, but editing someone else's question to "improve clarity" or whatever is a lot trickier and having some over site to double check my assumptions would be nice. Even if it just went back to the OP as a suggestion to approve or improve upon would be cool

Hohmannfan

The OP is always notified about edits on their posts, even from high-rep users

AndyD273

@Hohmannfan Yeah, but as a highish rep user, it might be nice to be able to make an edit that doesn't commit right away, but instead shows up as a suggested edit for OP to see, but maybe not WB general

@DaaaahWhoosh I have been informed "Earth Science Stack Exchange is not interested in speculative scenarios." so it would be off topic over there.

DaaaahWhoosh

6:48 PM

@AndyD273 whaaaaaat why would anyone not be interested in speculative scenarios?

Hohmannfan

Worldbuilding covers some speculative scenarios, but not all. There is a "whatif" proposal at Area51 if anyone is interested.

AndyD273

Filthy whooshists, the lot of 'em!

Hohmannfan

@AndyD273 What is wrong with us Whooshists?

AndyD273

@Hohmannfan Shh bby, is ok

bilbo_pingouin

8:23 PM

@AndyD273 @James @TimB and @DaaaahWhoosh I made that meta exercise... :)

James

I already went running today...

DaaaahWhoosh

apparently you don't want me to know about it :(

bilbo_pingouin

damn, James got it twice

James

Im special like that.

bilbo_pingouin

now :)

James

8:25 PM

Anyone ever play Mount and Blade?

bilbo_pingouin

0

Q: Story vs World building: study case

This is yet another post to try to rationalise the limit between story-building (off-topic) and worlbuilding (on-topic). A recent question: How to determine where the nearest mainland shore is when standing on an island? was first closed for story building, then edited and reopened. It started...

discussion on-topic

@James nope, I don't even know what this is about

DaaaahWhoosh

@bilbo_pingouin I assume swords and horses

bilbo_pingouin

yep... but video game?

board game?

RPG?

James

The original...or rather the original + a major update is Mount and Blade: Warband

bilbo_pingouin

none of the aove

James

8:27 PM

Awesome PC game

I recently started replaying it because I found out someone did a full conversion mod to make it Lord of the Rings

DaaaahWhoosh

how many different ways are there to block things?

bilbo_pingouin

context?

James

This is a good gameplay video

Let's Play Mount & Blade: Warband - Part 2

►

Part one shows character creation

Its a fantastic game.

bilbo_pingouin

looks good... :)

I don't play much myself... I think the last PC game I actually played was never winter nights...

James

There are 7 factions (I think) each has its own troop/weapon/armor types

So you can have knights from one faction, horse archers from another, spearmen from another faction (each faction has strengths)

and there are 5 or 6 levels of upgrades for troops

anyway its on my brain cause I just found this game play video of #2 that will be coming out ...later not sure what the date is

@bilbo_pingouin I still break that out from time to time...

Mount & Blade 2: Bannerlord gameplay demonstration - PC Gamer Weekender

►

Worldbuilding Meta

8:37 PM

0

Q: Story vs World building: study case

This is yet another post to try to rationalise the limit between story-building (off-topic) and worlbuilding (on-topic). A recent question: How to determine where the nearest mainland shore is when standing on an island? was first closed for story building, then edited and reopened. It started...

discussion on-topic

bilbo_pingouin

@WorldbuildingMeta that wasn't very fast

Hohmannfan

@bilbo_pingouin Am I allowed to word my own question, even if I think the ones you posted are a mix?

Currently it says I should do that only if they are all on- or off-topic

bilbo_pingouin

@Hohmannfan yeah, you can... :)

Hohmannfan

Interesting way of doing it by the way, has something like that been tried on this meta before?

bilbo_pingouin

not to my knowledge

but you should vote on all the questions...

or answers ;)

Hohmannfan

8:45 PM

I am really not sure about one of them, but OK

bilbo_pingouin

yeah I know, but if we want to have the extreme cases with many + or many -, and the less clear cases with 0... we have to decide on all ;)

DaaaahWhoosh

leave comments too, comments help

Hohmannfan

So I have now posted a question that is an answer to a meta-question about questions :)

I'm So Meta, Even This Acronym

Stolen from THE Randall

bilbo_pingouin

ISMETA?

= is meta

@DaaaahWhoosh yeah, I understand that some might be too broad... but let's keep in mind the on/off-topic part :)

DaaaahWhoosh

@bilbo_pingouin I can't... I can't stop seeing too broad... IT'S EVERYWHERE! CONSTRAIN! CONSTRAAAAAAIN!

but mostly I see a lot of idea generation

Hohmannfan

8:57 PM

@DaaaahWhoosh The universe is too broad

DaaaahWhoosh

which I still think is off-topic

bilbo_pingouin

IG does not exist anymore...

DaaaahWhoosh

@Hohmannfan your mother is too broad!

2

bilbo_pingouin

you're hearing voices ;)

James

had to start that one...

DaaaahWhoosh

8:59 PM

@bilbo_pingouin I have to say, I disagree with its removal. I don't think we have a suitable replacement yet

Hohmannfan

bilbo_pingouin

@DaaaahWhoosh the whole discussion isn't over yet. For me I do agree, IG was a bad name... most of what we do is IG.

DaaaahWhoosh

@bilbo_pingouin I'd say what we should do is meta-idea-generation

Hohmannfan

Is not that just a big word for creating ideas?

bilbo_pingouin

add it as a risk factor

DaaaahWhoosh

9:03 PM

add idea generation as a risk factor?

bilbo_pingouin

well, it should appear somewhere in the complete discussion... or start a meta post dedicated for it :)

Tim B

we already had it discussed in a meta post

the decision was to burninate since it's just a subset of too broad

however feel free to add a variant of it as a risk factor if you think it can make something off topic

bilbo_pingouin

it's a mix of too broad and opinion-based...

FWIW, I am the second highest close reviewer, and since July, I never used IG as a reason. Because, most of the time too broad is the right way.

Hohmannfan

But it seems like you are not the only one turning bowls at that queue :)

bilbo_pingouin

@Hohmannfan nah, since I got the reviewer badge in December, I am not spending any priority on it. But I have the feeling that many people abandoned that queue.

DaaaahWhoosh

9:16 PM

@TimB I don't think it's always a subset of too broad, but I would be fine with its removal once we'd implemented some of the other risk factors, such as open-ended

I guess I should've spoken up before it got removed, but I get tired of disagreeing sometimes

bilbo_pingouin

this is a general problem, that all those discussions... are usually done between at max 10 persons... so it's hard to see any statistics...

but nevertheless if no one present a given point of view, it is ignored

so even if it means you have to disagree all the time, you should take the time to do it... so that people have a chance to see the other point of view. Especially those who "simply" vote and never express anything

DaaaahWhoosh

9:32 PM

well, I have been saying for a while that I think idea generation is a bad thing

as in, a legitimate close reason

but everyone keeps on going back to the 'everything we do is idea generation' argument, which I thought the case studies did a good job of disproving

bilbo_pingouin

I think that it is normal, and rather good that we are all different, and have different opinions. The main concept of SE is a rule of majority. But the majority can only appear when every view was heard. So it is very important to present different views. But it is as essential to accept that it is not shared.

I mean sometimes we have fundamental questions about the scope, and there's only one answer, with one point of view. And we are left to assume that that is the view of the community at large.

Hohmannfan

I am a little bit worried: How many use this site? A lot! How many are in chat or on meta? Just a few.

bilbo_pingouin

well that is understandable. Many (will) come from google, because they found a question similar to the question they had, and want to learn the answers provided. Many users are not dedicated to this community, but come because they have a question (whatever the reason), ask it get some answers, and never come back.

And a few are more dedicated to the site and thus are more active on meta, chat, etc.

it is the same on all the sites.

Hohmannfan

But still: There are a lot more active answerers than chat/meta active people too.

bilbo_pingouin

I believe most of us went to SO to read some answers, ask some questions etc. But how many did take part of the community (via active meta and/or chat participation)?

Hohmannfan

9:46 PM

bilbo_pingouin

yes, but quorum was awarded more than 200 times

Hohmannfan

Is it possible that most of the users are not aware of the existence of a chat?

AndyD273

@Hohmannfan It's possible. I was a pretty active WB user for over a year before I figured out that chat existed. And that's only because one of my answers had enough comments to fail over to chat

Then I figured out there were other rooms, and ended up here

Hohmannfan

I discovered it on Space exploration when somebody told me about it

AndyD273

I had a suggestion a while back that a clear link to the chat be located on the side bar, but at the time no one liked the idea

bilbo_pingouin

9:54 PM

there are probably different reasons... some are not aware. Some get to the site with their phones, which does not feature the chat. Some chats on other sites have bad reputation. Some people want to save time to concentrate on answering questions on main. Some newer users may feel intimidated. Some are already on other SE chats and don't have the time to be on that one as well...

@AndyD273 on meta, there are links on the right side... and on main there are right-side links to meta on various pages. And you get here in two clicks (StackExchange then Chat).

AndyD273

@bilbo_pingouin It took me forever to check out Meta too. I'm just saying it's not intuitive, especially if you aren't actively looking for it, or don't know it exists. If I'm just browsing through questions, I'll probably never see it.

bilbo_pingouin

I think the typical way to both meta and chat is through the comments... ;)

AndyD273

@bilbo_pingouin Probably, but after finding the chat the site got a lot better, since I had a place to get advice on asking questions and other things. I don't see why it's considered right to hide it away in a locked room in the basement with a sign saying beware of leopard. Put it out in the open where anyone can at least see that it exists.

bilbo_pingouin

yet I don't believe that if you put it on the front page, with flashy neons and a sexy dude (today's IWD) inviting you to join in... all would. Not even a majority.

Hohmannfan

10:11 PM

This chat room so much need the tag beware-of-the-leopard

DaaaahWhoosh

@bilbo_pingouin not all women find dudes sexy... add a sexy woman who's not being objectified and I think you're on to something

bilbo_pingouin

sexy androgyne?

DaaaahWhoosh

@bilbo_pingouin is that even possible?

sounds like a contradiction

bilbo_pingouin

well, I don't know, but at the same time, so does sexy and inviting and not objectified ;-)

Hohmannfan

"standing there for a purpose not related to their person at all, and not being objectified"

bilbo_pingouin

10:18 PM

ok... let's put some cute cats instead

everything's better with cute catz

DaaaahWhoosh

I prefer 'kittens'

you don't even need to say they're cute, it's implied

bilbo_pingouin

fair enough, kittens it is

well for cats, it helps... but for kittens not necessarily...

DaaaahWhoosh

I guess it helps for alliteration, cute cuddly kittens are probably cuter than regular kittens

just like poor pitiful puppies

bilbo_pingouin

so... "yet I don't believe that if you put it on the front page, with flashy neons and a few kittens playing, and a person cordially inviting you to join in... all would. Not even a majority."

DaaaahWhoosh

I vociferously object to that statement

no one can reject neon kittens

Hohmannfan

10:22 PM

bilbo_pingouin

btw, did you know that "chat"... is the French word for cat?

DaaaahWhoosh

@bilbo_pingouin I did, but now my mind is blown

bilbo_pingouin

@DaaaahWhoosh not sure that would keep the cute image... neon kitten... would be awesome... but cute? not sure.

DaaaahWhoosh

Just imagine kittens in little Tron costumes

Hohmannfan

Neon kittens not cute?

bilbo_pingouin

10:26 PM

well, if you're familiar with Japanese animation and/or mangas, you'll know that there is always a debate between kawai (cute) and kakkoi (cool)

tron kittens would clearly be in the Kakkoi category for me...

Hohmannfan

Keeping Linnaeus system up to date: A proper classification of lolcats

DaaaahWhoosh

someone is asking a question about instrumenting the ocean... does that make English sense?

bilbo_pingouin

@DaaaahWhoosh well, from a language that brought you the baseball-batting someone... why not ;)

DaaaahWhoosh

but, what does it mean, then? Attaching instruments to the ocean, or perhaps using the ocean as a musical instrument?

Hohmannfan

I think it is about deep sea exploration with probes

bilbo_pingouin

10:36 PM

I guess it means scanning... but using the ocean as a music instrument sounds cool

DaaaahWhoosh

@bilbo_pingouin I'm sure an ocean would sound cool

bilbo_pingouin

it would

Hohmannfan

I am used to the sound of the ocean, and I agree

bilbo_pingouin

yep I was as well to some extend...

and hearing the waves from the storm is a great thing.... when you stand on firm grounds

DaaaahWhoosh

I wonder if you could put some sort of machine in the ocean, where it would create small waves that would make the ocean sounds sound like a song

I guess it would be hard to get different notes

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