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4:02 AM
@nc4pk I worked in the Biostat dept. As a Research Associate.
I was in a Biology research group for a while. Then worked for some clinical trials people.
oh cool
Apparently Duke is Durham's biggest employer.
How do peer reviews work for edited questions?
yep, ever since the tobacco industry collapsed
RTP isn't technically part of the Durham municipality so most of those companies don't count towards employment statistics
@ChristopherHawker two people with edit privileges (2k+ rep) will review the edit and approve/reject it
@nc4pk Could you review a question for me?
4:10 AM
Coooler than a poler bear's toenails...
Ok, I am going to rebuild my firewall/gateway with pfSense, which means that I am going to go offline. See you soon once it is finished.
/me waves at everyone...
@nc4pk Sure, RTP isn't part of Durham.
It's closer to Raleigh.
Hmm, according to WP, most of RTP is in Durham County. Didn't know that.
Durham County must be larger than I thought.
it's very tall north-south
green is Durham city limits, teal is Raleigh
these days RTP is closer to Cary than Raleigh
4:35 AM
I am back now... pfSense is working good :)
@nc4pk I see. So, where do you live?
@FaheemMitha just off Western Boulevard, about 10 minutes driving from downtown Raleigh
@nc4pk Oh, so in RTP itself?
4:39 AM
@FaheemMitha no, almost all of RTP is in Durham county with a small portion extending into morrisville/cary
@nc4pk Ok.
RTP is about the halfway point on my drive "home" (parent's house)
@nc4pk Ah, so you commute to the NCSU campus? That must be a long drive.
How's the parking on campus?
@FaheemMitha nooo i live on campus (but I have a car in case I need/want to go home for something)
it depends on what building you live in and how many credits you have
@nc4pk Oh, ok. That's more convenient, I guess.
@nc4pk credits?
4:47 AM
@FaheemMitha courses you've taken
@nc4pk Oh. That affects parking?
@FaheemMitha yeah, people who've taken more classes are older students who tend to live off-campus
so the university reserves the "best" (on-campus) student spaces for them
the fewer courses you've taken the further out you have to park
most freshmen (like me) have to park in the lots that are conveniently across a 6-lane road (Western Blvd)
For anyone following the story about my cell phone screwing up... I think we're calling it quits on retrieving any possible data. Looks like it may get sent back to OnePlus, if I can get them to RMA it
@nc4pk That sounds annoying.
I've actually never been to the NCSU campus. As far as I can remember.
And I've rarely gone to Raleigh. Mostly just to go dancing.
(That's a really terrible web page.)
5:02 AM
Loafers is good for West Coast Swing. And Shag, I suppose. But Shag's a super local thing. Nobody does it outside the East Coast, afaik.
They have a proper dance floor. But it's pretty small.
Anyway, I don't really know Raleigh.
I've only lived here six months so I don't know too too much about it
most of what I do know is either retail (Crabtree Mall) or within biking distance (downtown)
@nc4pk Oh. So, you're a freshman?
@FaheemMitha yep
fresh out of high school
@nc4pk Ah. Well, hope you're having fun so far.
Raleigh doesn't really have much of a dance scene, but still worth checking out. It's probably one of the few places in NC where you can do WCS, though.
@FaheemMitha thanks, I am!
5:08 AM
@nc4pk West Coast Swing. The best thing since sliced bread.
Q: Would drilling through a PCB expose me to harmful toxins/fumes?

mas0701I have a broken graphics card and I drilled through it like an idiot. I drilled through part of the PCB and was wondering if doing this would release chemicals or gasses, etc. I didn't drill through the GPU itself, just the PCB of the card. I'm 13, curious, and just wasn't thinking at the time...

"I'm 13, curious, and just wasn't thinking at the time."
@nc4pk Wow...
@Sathya Good morning...
@nc4pk Most of the halfway decent WCS dancers in the Triangle tend to end up the aforementioned Loafers. Lots of beautiful women. (What can I say, I'm shallow.)
@FaheemMitha duly noted! I tried dancing (swing and round) in high school and it wasn't my thing, but might be worth another shot
I'm pretty sure there's an NCSU dance club, don't know much about it though
5:21 AM
@nc4pk There are different kinds of swing. Did you ever try WCS?
don't believe so, from reading the wikipedia article
youtube.com/watch?v=8uwp6sqhDw4 <- two of the world's best WCS dancers doing their thing
WCS is quite different from most other dances. For one thing, it's a lot more flexible and creative.
(LA) salsa is also popular in the Triangle, but I never got on with it that well.
@FaheemMitha wow, that was incredible to watch
@nc4pk I know, right?
way more coordination than I have (but then again way more practice as well)
5:29 AM
Not everyone looks like that, of course. But that's two WCS champions on a good day.
Still, WCS is pretty fun. If you are not too far from Loafers, you could check it out.
They also have dances at the local Elks lodge, but those are decidedly more amateur/casual events.
The people at Loafers are more serious.
i'd have to start casually anyway
(after I get over this knee injury - bikes and wet roads don't mix)
oh shoot it's past midnight
probably need some sleep
@nc4pk Ugh, knee injury. Sorry to hear that.
i sleep with white noise and this is currently what's generating it
4 of these 25 year old SCSI drives
5:34 AM
@nc4pk 25? Seriously?
they're older than I am
found them in a surplus shed
Do they work ok?
@Insane hm. Not seen that happen before
yep, no bad sectors or anything
Amazing. How big are they?
5:38 AM
Quick question: Is it typical for a grad student's graduate cumulative GPA to be lower than their undergraduate cumulative GPA?
they're full height (would take up 2 CD drive bays in a regular PC)
Ah, 1.3 GB, probably.
i think they were pulled from old Sun equipment actually
thing takes 30 seconds to spin up and about that long to spin back down
What do you use it for? Literally just a white noise generator?
Would anyone consider 32gb of swap on a microSD card to be overkill?
5:43 AM
@FaheemMitha pretty much. at one point my intent was to sell them (I run an Amazon and an eBay store) but the market for them is really small
@nc4pk What do you sell?
@ChristopherHawker pretty much anything I don't use anymore
@nc4pk Link? Might score a bargain...
@ChristopherHawker yes
sold a bunch of old-ish (GameCube/Wii) games and some CDs as well as surplus computer equipment
lol the only things up for sale right now are an old KVM switch and a certain kind of Dell SFF power supply
5:46 AM
@JourneymanGeek I just created a 4 x 2TB RAID5 on Ubuntu with a 32gb swapfile on the internal microSD card, should be good :D
@nc4pk I need a KVM switch, I have some servers here, but suck ass in swapping the cables between them...
@ChristopherHawker amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00004Z7Y7/… (you'll never guess which one's me)
@nc4pk Which one is it?
@ChristopherHawker i'm "ncdownpat" (which, fun fact, used to be my username here)
going afk, g'night all
@nc4pk What power supply does it use? And I wonder how much it would cost to send it to Australia...
Cya later @nc4pk...
I'm gonna be off too, gotta go down to the shops to buy some stuff for dinner, then get ready for work tomorrow...
6:03 AM
@ChristopherHawker I don't like the idea of having swap on an SD card
@JourneymanGeek I have a HP ProLiant MicroServer G8 which has a MicroSD card slot on the motherboard for OSes, etc. Many hosting providers install a base OS on an SD card and use storage on a SAN. I didn't think this would be any different.
@ChristopherHawker usually those OSes are not touched once
@ChristopherHawker putting swap on an SD card is like bringing up a can of mandarin oranges from the basement pantry to the kitchen by opening the can in the basement and carrying one slice of orange at a time up the stairs then going back down
In fact that's quite literally there for ESXi
@allquixotic or moving a sandwich up stairs by passing it piece by piece to a dachund.
@allquixotic Use an SSD instead. They're not expensive for the sizes needed for a swap partition.
6:07 AM
@ChristopherHawker reasons not to have swap on an SD card... its slow, wears out faster....
@ChristopherHawker I'd probably use a drive connected to an onboard SATA or SAS interface for boot and have data drives on a separate HBA or RAID card.
pretty sure swap is faster on an HDD than an SD card... at least once you burn through any tiny amount of cache the SD card might have
This system only has 4 x 3.5" bays. I wanted to maximize storage with some level of redundancy which is why I opted for a RAID5 setup.
It's not a mission-critical setup, however I do have the data redundancy should a disk fail.
Should the SD card bork itself, I would just replace it. I daresay there would be at least 6~12 months life in it.
(* Looking forward to running a full CentOS and Ubuntu mirror at home... *)
If the machine had an eSATA or M.2 slot, it would be trivial to install a small (120 GB) SSD and use it as swap.
@nc4pk I can imagine.
@ChristopherHawker heh, when I have some money, I'd be tempted to pick one of those up
@allquixotic weren't you toying with doing this? superuser.com/questions/1024171/…
@JourneymanGeek Well, I wanted something I could use as a NAS. I looked at WD and Seagate systems, alongside Synology, QNAP, etc.
I figured if I could buy a server as cheap (if not cheaper) than a NAS then the question answers itself.
@ChristopherHawker precisely
All you lose out on is maybe hotswapping
Hmm... turns out Samsung has increased the warranty write limit for the 512 GB and 1 TB SSD 850 PRO to 300 TBW, which is more than 80 GB/day over the 10-year warranty period.
I really don't need hotswapping as I don't intend to break my RAID array while the system is online.
6:30 AM
(The 2 TB model launched with a 300 TBW warranty limit.)
@JourneymanGeek not only toying with; actually did it
ahh ok
(contrary to popular belief, my memory isn't perfect ;p)
with an EC2 spot instance you can get a pretty decent Kepler GPU in northern Virginia for about $2.40 - $4.00 USD per day
on amazon wasn't it?
With the 512 GB model (which I have), and you assume a 5-year service life, 300 TBW is more than 0.3 DWPD.
6:32 AM
It only gets better with the SSD 950 PRO:
2 days ago, by bwDraco
TBW values are based on binary units, while capacities are based on decimal units, which means that the drives are rated for about 0.47 DWPD.
it's a lot more expensive if you don't use spot instances or if you get the 8xlarge
2 days ago, by bwDraco
...which means that the SSD 950 PRO is designed to do nearly half a drive write per day over five years. Absolutely incredible for a consumer SSD. Wow.
@bwDraco Yes it is...
@ChristopherHawker terabytes written, and... I dunno
6:33 AM
This is squarely in enterprise territory (although high-end enterprise SSDs can often do multiple full drive writes per day over five years).
@allquixotic yeah, but meh I doubt it would be that much cheaper for 'regular' use eventually
Drive writes per day?
@JourneymanGeek that's the thing; it's not cheaper
you use it when you only have a phone and you're out and about
@allquixotic now I'm curious if its possible to do that with a home box and a fast service...
Is it possible to tell a program to just use swap not physical RAM.
6:36 AM
@Neil nope
and this feels like an X-Y problem
Well i thought so.
The CPU can't access or operate on disk swap directly.
The only reason to use swap/virtual memory is lack of ram
6:37 AM
well technically if your kernel is open source, you could modify the virtual memory subsystem to enable a new API that you can call, passing a PID, to force every page to be swapped out
You can think of RAM as a cache. On Windows it literally is a cache for any page files. I believe *nix is the same.
but that would require you to be a very capable kernel programmer and your talents would be better spent elsewhere
yea thats what i have. i want to make use of DVMT but i go 2GB in swap. when i play Games
@allquixotic If you were smart enough to do that. You'd be smart enough not to
@Neil what OS do you run? Swap is a linuxism
6:38 AM
@JourneymanGeek Also no. Swap is used even when you have plenty of RAM, for good reason.
Whatever unused RAM is available is used to cache disk accesses.
This means that especially if your system has a mechanical hard drive, more memory will increase performance even if your applications do not use all available memory.
@Bob well, standby pages maaaybe
@allquixotic that would be entirely useless: you can't operate directly on disk data, so you would have to swap it on to use it anyway
i swap to a SSD.
@Neil it isn't a speed issue
its a "The OS does it the smartest way it can, and it knows better" issue
6:41 AM
On systems equipped with an SSD, more memory allows the system to more effectively buffer writes, which helps to make the most of the drive's endurance.(Endurance is rarely an issue on mainstream and high-end drives these days, but may be a factor on a low-end, low-capacity SSD, such as a 250 GB Crucial BX200, under sustained I/O workloads).
Linux does allow overcommit, with the consequence of randomly killing programs if you actually try to use all of it.
Windows guarantees all committed memory is available.
@Bob how would it be useless? granted, it's not especially useful to have a manual override for a system that already has a smart decision-making algorithm (to determine when to swap something out), but if literally nothing is going on in the process's mapped pages, they may as well sit on disk. that's what Windows does, even if you have tons of "free" RAM, to make space for page cache.
This means that having no page file would require a significant amount of RAM to be kept available to meet this guarantee.
@allquixotic I read that as forcing all of the target program's memory into swap.
* 240 GB
For its entire lifetime.
6:44 AM
@Bob Yeah, it's the "for its entire lifetime" bit that isn't technically possible... you could develop an API to force an entire process's private working set (so, ignoring any "shared" pages) to swap one time, and then any pages that get read/written after that call have to be pulled back to RAM
@allquixotic if it were just while idle then it's just suspending the process...nothing too special
basically that would only be bypassing the decision-making that would normally automatically determine when it makes sense to do that (and the decision-making alg usually can write only the rarely-used pages, rather than an entire process's private working set, to swap - though I think this differs between Windows and Linux)
Still largely useless to manually control
Oh, and the correct way would be for the process itself to control it, typically with a memory mapped file.
for instance, if your mail client creates a large options GUI and keeps it mapped into memory for the duration of the mail client's existence to make it faster to bring up the options when you ask for them, it could swap out (page out) the preferences GUI related data structures and textures, etc for users who rarely/never use the preferences
(there's an equally-viable strategy of not even allocating data structures or have a cached/built GUI "ready to go"; you reduce memory pressure this way, but increase load times when requesting the dialog - pros and cons to each approach)
@Bob hmm, does accessing a memory mapped file trigger page faults? because if not, that's a significant efficiency win over using swap
PCWorld's Jon L. Jacobi has warned about poor sustained performance with SLC-buffered TLC NAND SSDs several times: pcworld.com/article/2947864 pcworld.com/article/2993875 pcworld.com/article/3000913
6:53 AM
@allquixotic I believe it does
Iirc in Windows the page file is implemented as a special memory mapped file
OCZ Arc 100 has a surprisingly poor endurance rating of 22 TBW.
per day or total?
Total. 20 GB per day over three years.
Adequate for most casual users, but this oddly low rating tends to leave enthusiasts questioning the long-term reliability of the drive.
I certainly won't choose it for even a low-end build.
I'd recommend the Samsung SSD 850 EVO, 250 or 500 GB, for entry-level and mainstream systems.
For high-end machines, I'd suggest the Samsung SSD 850 PRO. If M.2 is available and NVMe is supported, I'd consider getting the Samsung SSD 950 PRO. (The 950 PRO needs a bit of airflow for optimal performance under sustained load as it is prone to overheating.)
However, I'd continue to prefer SATA storage because it's mature and considerably cheaper.
Heh. I have a Trion 100 (240 GB). Rated at 60 TBW.
Using it purely for games.
@Bob Is the slowdown with large sequential writes an issue?
7:02 AM
The cache on it is tiny, though, and performance drops off fairly quickly with large transfers (pcworld.com/article/2947864/storage/…)
@bwDraco Not for my current usage.
I know. I linked to that article.
Many consumers will find themselves scratching their heads when they find that their drive suddenly slows down dramatically under heavy usage.
I have an 850 EVO (that's still not installed). Was planning for that to be the OS drive.
Honestly, I'm not too worried about disk performance.
I need more capacity, not perf.
My laptop has a 512 GB SSD 850 PRO in it. It's used for system, apps, and documents. Bulk data goes on the system's stock hard drive (the machine was sold with a 750 GB WD Black).
Oh, also have an Intel 330 (120 GB) that's acting as a cache (96 GB, PrimoCache read-only) and has my page file on the remaining space.
That takes care of >99% of my typical tasks.
I only notice the slower speeds while, say, copying large backup archives or videos around.
And that's where capacity is more important anyway.
7:13 AM
I tend not to stick those
There's a sticker festooned box of screws inside my PC tho
@JourneymanGeek: I know you're going to be gone for about a week for National Service. The Singapore Armed Forces is structured in such a manner where lots of specialists are necessary and regulars can't possibly meet the country's unique military demands, which call for a strong ability to defend itself and deter attacks on its homeland.
Good luck.
@bwDraco >_>
@bwDraco I kinda failed basic
THe most dangerous thing I handle is large containers of piping hot black coffee.
fun part is since I'm a spare REMF, I don't even know what I'll be doing till I get there
As I understand it, Singapore has a history of conflict that calls for a need to be able to deter attacks through a large, highly-trained military. Therefore, regular enlistees just aren't enough.
The indonesians threw a hissy fit once.
And the communists. or even "communists"
(I'm hardly highly trained. Hell, my old job dosen't even exist)
Here in the US, we don't have conscription. We have what's called the Selective Service System, where all men 18 to 25 must register, to allow a draft to be quickly organized just in case something really serious happens that demands more than what the existing professional military can supply.
7:28 AM
Pretty much, if we get into a war, I'll be the one who people will go "Why did we get stuck with a small dog a redundant storeman?"
then I'll likely end up digging toilets or something
8:12 AM
Drive finally failed after more than 7 PBW.
PCWorld gave the Crucial BX200 a scathing review: pcworld.com/article/3000913/storage/…
2 days ago, by bwDraco
The BX200 drops to less than HDD speeds (75 MB/s) once the cache is full.
> Though it's extremely affordable, the BX200 suffers the worst sustained write performance of any SSD we've ever tested.
Not good.
AnandTech's results are similar: anandtech.com/show/9756/…
> The drive clearly needs at least a firmware overhaul, and it's a horrible way to introduce Micron's 16nm TLC to the world [...] even being the cheapest SSD on the market wouldn't be sufficient to earn a recommendation; almost anything else would be worth paying extra for.
> [...] this goes down as one of the most disappointing SSDs introduced since 2008, when early JMicron DRAM-less controllers suffered the stutter fiasco. I really just can’t understand how Crucial tested this drive in-house and decided to release the BX200 in its current form.
IMHO, the BX200 simply isn't worth it even at its current price point.
Write more than a few gigabytes to the drive at a time, and you get slower than HDD speeds. Not okay.
You might as well get an SSHD instead.
Absolutely scathing reviews.
8:33 AM
Are SSDs getting more mainstream in the US? I've been considering getting one.
Yes, they are.
A lot of systems now ship with SSDs standard.
> billions of years of nasty predators, parasites and bad situations have been doing quality assurance
They're a bit pricey here.
$225 approx for the Samsung 850 EVO 500GB.
@FaheemMitha Hmm... that's an oddly high price. Here in the US, Newegg charges $160.
@bwDraco Not odd at all for India. On the low end if anything.
India electronics prices are typically 150% of US prices. Even though we're closer to the "usual" manufacturers.
In the case of SSDs, I suppose the high volume tends to drive the price down.
Also, mobile phone prices are relatively competitive.
8:39 AM
India is one of those much-overlooked countries. It's a booming, high-tech country, as much as it may seem otherwise.
India has a lot of mobile phones.
@bwDraco It's a disaster zone, actually.
At the same time, poverty is widespread.
India is growing too fast, I'd say.
Maybe not from the viewpoint of a tech company looking to make a fast buck.
@bwDraco Growing in what sense?
@bwDraco Oh. Well, it's not sustainable.
8:40 AM
It's growing too fast to sustain itself. Insane population density, for starters.
India is all kinds of messed up. Makes the US look good.
@bwDraco For starters. Also, lots and lots of criminal activity.
I think people import electronics in here to get a better price. Of course, you lose the warranty.
Feb 8 '15 at 3:38, by DragonLord
A surprising number of Google searches for electronics will produce suggestions like "...price in India"
@FaheemMitha most of us arn't typical users in one way or other.
In the case of an SSD, it might be worth taking the chance. Though I don't know what SSD failure rates in-warranty are.
@JourneymanGeek Hmm?
Sorry, I forget the context.
@FaheemMitha Generally very reliable once you get past the first month or so.
8:45 AM
@bwDraco Yes, that's what I figured.
But thanks for the confirmation.
@FaheemMitha in terms of folks here are less likely to pick up a standard consumer system :p
@JourneymanGeek Ok. As opposed to?
Nowadays, the really low end stuff is emmc.
@JourneymanGeek emmc?
Soldered on flash.
Somewhat faster than spinning rust.
8:48 AM
@JourneymanGeek Oh. That's bad, I assume.
@FaheemMitha Lower-grade flash memory. Sequential I/O performance isn't great but excels in random I/O as with any flash memory device.
I see you have a 175k man of mystery.
@bwDraco Better than a trad hard drive?
Good enough for small, low use drives.
I'm still using SATA here.
@FaheemMitha the better ones are. There's one in my netbook.
8:49 AM
@FaheemMitha Generally yes, but not a substitute for a proper SSD in most cases.
It all comes down to the specific flash memory and controller they're using.
@JourneymanGeek often slower
as used in many tablets and (older) phones
@bwDraco Ok. Hopefully not less reliable though.
@Bob what do newer phones use?
@bwDraco Thanks, that's a useful overview.
8:56 AM
I believe they still use eMMC, only with faster NAND.
Gotta go soon.
I'd probably go with the Samsung EVO if I went with anything.
@FaheemMitha also, the first generation of SSDs with VERY small caches are coming out
which should drop the bottom off the low end somewhat
I went with an 850 pro ;p
@JourneymanGeek @bwDraco UFS (2.0) is a thing now.
New tech, though.
Universal Flash Storage (UFS) is a common flash storage specification for digital cameras, mobile phones and consumer electronic devices. This could bring higher data transfer speed and increased reliability in flash memory storage, thus reducing market confusion and the varying number of adapters for different number of cards. The proposed specification is supported by leading firms in the consumer electronics industry such as Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Texas Instruments, STMicroelectronics, Samsung, Micron, SK Hynix. UFS is positioned as a replacement for eMMCs and SD cards. The electrical interface...
8:57 AM
Not yet common.
Most phones still use (newer version of) eMMC, true. But UFS is the current direction.
@Bob and netbooks chromebooks/bingbooks would go that direction too, since they are essentially using tablet components
@JourneymanGeek Hard to say. Netbooks tend to be low-cost devices.
UFS is more a thing for flagship phones.
It replaces SD cards?
it's a protocol
afaik it doesn't specify form factor
9:00 AM
9:22 AM
right, nearly managed to pack everything I need
helmet won't quite fit, but I expected that
Anyone around?
Good morning all ;)
I'm in and out. Packing '[
Don't lose your bag of ink carts
like i did
I can't find them for the life of me and they arrived at my new location, so how the hell, did I lose them? :cry
I need to find a novel to read during downtime and I'm good
9:37 AM
@Bob Pretty much all current and previous-gen flaghips use UFS
iPhones have used it for several generations.
Even without UFS though, my EMMC does 200MB/sec reads, and anything from 20-150MB/sec writes depending on the phone
@JourneymanGeek Where you off to?
@qasdfdsaq military stuff
Packed everything I need if I need to stay over there/bulky usless crap mentioned in my orders, but I'm doubtful I will need most of it
If they are paying to move it, may as well
but better to be sure I don't need it
I just packed a change of clothes, spare socks, and stuff
If its stay out, I can dump most of that
"stay out"?
Basically sometimes you need to live in barracks during your reservist service
I've not had to so far
9:46 AM
Ahh, ok
God; I hope my job doesn't send me to CO. I would have to fly there, and they don't pay for a rental car, and it would be 2 weeks.
Even though I probably need the training
Ok all, I am going offline shortly. Just have to e-mail some logos to my close friend for our business venture, then gotta get ready for work and off to bed.
Sorry if it seems like I am blogging my personal life here ;P
Cya all later! :D
A: Would drilling through a PCB expose me to harmful toxins/fumes?

AShaffieldYou obviously drilled through a Printed Circuit Board which in itself is just fiberglass. Now if you take a ballast out of a florescent light fixture or a large power company transformer all of the older ones were filled with Poly-Clorinated Biphenols in the form of a liquid oil for cooling purp...

Why did somebody go to the effort to edit this answer. Outside of pointing out the composition of most PCBs today its not really an answer to the question asked....but the comment about the composition isn't an answer by itself.
@Ramhound the paragraphing is an improvement tho
I was tempted to start an answer with "You are going to die... eventually"
@Ramhound Doesn't Jake have a habit of doing that? I seem to recall it was him editing answers to replace " with smart quotes (although I can't be 100% sure).
I don't really keep track

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