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12:05 AM
As someone who's worked hard for several years at changing his own mind: it's a deliberate process that takes time, and patience and persistence to keep going over that time. It's like going to the gym: nobody tricks you into suddenly being buff or fit, you have to work on it yourself, over an extended period of time, slowly training yourself. As you keep doing so, you also get more apt at the self-training process.
Likewise, you can always do with the help of a professional to start you off.
There's many parts of my thought processes I've wanted to disappear or change, and I have done so, but it's taken time and paid off, and it's also taken the initial expertise to know how to make that happen. There's a few more still to work on, and I'm working continuously on those.
@doppelgreener It feels weird, going at a psychologist to ask him (or her) to help me becoming better at a game. All I ever tought is that s/he'd be better convincing me to stop gaming and use the time to actually do useful things like compiling that list of my medical expenses that I was supposed to do today.
@Zachiel As with Shalv, the game stuff is a symptomatic microcosm of challenges you face in other parts of your life too.
@Zachiel hah, no.
@BESW I've heard this applied to when I tell people that this thing about not sepnding money for a thing if I could theoretically get it for less or even better not spending at all, especially for fleeting goods is not a character trait but a thing I must cope with everyday.
Yet I fear getting a psychologist to convince me to spend more.
I must live with the terror of ending my money before Idie and I must die with a smile because I managed to save enough to see that day and still have an emergency fund.
To think that some people fear still having unspent money when they die because it means they had less fun while alive...
12:21 AM
What amount of this is pertinent here?
Do you want to see a psychologist and be content?
Have you even seen one, that you're so preoccupied with money and the idea they're better off convincing you to stop playing games?
I have seen one that made a sort of trial, twice.
It was great because I could vent a lot, but didn't really help me solve anything
Do you mean you went for two sessions?
Yes. I get told it's very few. But then, the preoccupation of being wasting my money in some useless thing stopped me from having more.
On a different note: oh, bummer. Shield of Faith is touch, not personal. -5 to AC, I suppose...
Welp, it was pretty useless if you only went for two sessions.
That has been my impression, yes.
12:25 AM
It took me about ten to resolve something big, and what you have is bigger than that.
Also, it's not only a matter of money, it's also a matter of time and actually going there.
And a great fear to go there and waste time without knowing what to tacke exactly.
Mate, you're talking yourself into not wanting to change at all, and spending a whole lot of effort justifying that you can't and expecting maybe a miracle will swing by to do it for you all of a sudden.
It's an entertaining game to preoccupy oneself with, but it's just a jig on the spot. Go see a psychologist and keep going.
Otherwise we're just bystanders in your "I can't and won't ever change but I hate it" game.
Or unwitting players in it.
If the psychologist doesn't seem to actually understand what your problems are, find a different one. (I had some friends who went for marriage counselling and got told to have affairs. Not all shrinks are awesome or compatible with everyone. That doesn't mean all shrinks are useless.)
Yes, this. ^
The psychologist I visited, I carefully picked out because his areas of expertise overlapped with the problem I was facing. For other problems I'd pick different people, and may even move to other psychologists if it was ineffective in the long run.
(And if you have any health insurance, check if it helps cover this sort of thing. More plans do these days.)
I'm sympathetic to the situation you're in; I'm struggling with similar inertia. But folks on the Internet can't help either of us with it.
12:46 AM
The fun part of this is that I'm ok with this so-called problem in real life. I might not be willing to spend money to have fun save for getting an internet connection and I might live what I recognize people have all rights to call "a miserable life", but I'm not really worried about this.
Somehow it seems that this is seeping into my characters and makes them unenjoyable, to me and to others. Sometimes, for instance, I'm told my characters act in unreasonable ways - hey, it's how I'd react. And here the story about how I need to change in real life was born, but as I said, in real life I'm fine with it.
@Zachiel part of the thing is "why don't you branch out and try different games with different people?" I think that's a large part of what started me on the path to getting past my troubles
Well it comes up here a lot, and you sure sound like you're worried about it. I don't remember the last time you had a remark about actually having fun.
it seems like part of the problem is that not only are you not happy in your current groups with yoru current characters, you have even less of a desire to try new groups and new games than I do
@Shalvenay Stubborness. I want to be successful at it and i will try again and again until I manage it - or I die, whichever comes first.
@Zachiel at what, precisely?
at RP in general, or at convincing that specific bunch of players you aren't useless?
12:49 AM
I'm gonna request this goes to NAB.
Since its getting pretty involved.
I think I will just point Shalvenay to a previous point in the conversation and call it a day
Okay, before a day is called: please recognise the impact your conversations about your situation have on the chat. If you don't want to change, and don't care strongly about it - recognise that we do and would kinda like you to be having fun.
So if you never want to change - don't keep complaining about your situation please. If you do want to change - don't pretend to yourself you don't care and you're OK with it.
From our POV, you are 0% OK with any of it.
(Based on... everything you've said, a whole lot of times.)
now for something completely different -- how do you deal with folks who believe, adamantly, that the Stormwind Fallacy is sound and true, instead of fallacious?
Eat oreos, read a good book.
Go play video games and make some tea.
12:59 AM
Offer to run them through a game outside the d20 System engine.
@Zachiel Incidentally, you can cast touch spells on yourself.
@Miniman [pokes belly, giggles]
@BESW because I have met folks who believe this is true, even outside of the d20 System context.
@Shalvenay The vast majority of conversations about Stormwind take place within that context. No solution will meet every outlying situation perfectly.
Stormwind - is that the one that says more optimisation means less RP?
1:01 AM
If you're asking about a specific situation, don't hide information from us and then tell us we're wrong.
@Adeptus ...no.
Stormwind says that optimisation and role-playing are mutually exclusive.
@BESW right.
A: What is the Stormwind Fallacy?

KRyanThis is an important part of Dungeons & Dragons 3.5, and by extension, Pathfinder, history and community, and this site should include a copy of it. The fallacy, in short, is that optimizing prevents roleplaying, or that roleplaying prevents optimization. It is called the Stormwind Fallacy after...

(And for newcomers, I still think it's ridiculous gatekeeping to continue to refer to such a broad concept by the name of one guy on a forum who explained it moderately well a while ago.)
@BESW ye
That which goes by the name "Stormwind Fallacy" is actually a collection of misconceptions gathered under one roof because they manifest similarly.
To address the confusions in a real-life scenario, you have to know which confusion the person is facing.
Common sources of confusion include the fluff/mechanics divide, gameplay goals, the breadth of the RPG landscape, and the relationship between GM fiat and published rules.
Oh, and the difference between mechanics-first and narrative-first play, or even the fact such categories exist.
@BESW Yeah -- I think that divide is what trips me up in the online persistent-world stuff I do.
1:12 AM
....and perhaps most damningly on all sides, a failure to recognise that "optimisation" doesn't mean "gunning for power."
@BESW I think much of that is driven by the unidimensional optimization-design of some rather (in)famous systems (D&D 3.x, I'm looking at you)
@Shalvenay What do you mean by unidimensional optimization design?
@doppelgreener That you can only make a character more powerful or less powerful, without any tradeoffs at making them do something better at the expense of something else.
@Shalvenay I am like 90% sure that what you have described is not D&D. Ask KRyan to design you a healer sometime who does something specific; you'll get tradeoffs and it'll be not as simple as "more powerful" and "less powerful".
What you've described is only feasible in a game where you have one stat and it being bigger or smaller says you win more.
@Shalvenay Eheheheh. My quarterling, let me show you him.
1:15 AM
@doppelgreener Within classes, it is possible to make some task-specific tradeoffs in 3.5e, yes -- but most of them are dwarfed by the magnitude of the tier differences between classes.
@Shalvenay mate, it's not a one-dimensional system.
there are things you can do inside optimisation beyond "be more powerful".
My career as a 3.5 player was defined by picking one non-class-specific feature and maximising it at the expense of all other concerns, deliberately shafting myself in other areas.
"be more powerful" is, in fact, rarely the goal. even in theoretical charop, it's "do one thing ridiculously, hilariously well".
@BESW Safe to say, D&D and a small number of other systems don't handle these topics well themselves or in their communities.
@Miniman but not persist them. I've played with a persisted +5 to AC for several months now, when I shouldn't have
@Zachiel Ah, right.
1:20 AM
@doppelgreener I optimized for escape artist checks.
I kept being grappled, then escaping, then grappeld, then escaping, then just bonked in the head because it was easier to stop me that way.
1:34 AM
I don't tend to heavily optimise these days. (I say heavily because any non-mediocre character is at least a little optimised). I've mentioned my Shadowrun character that was optimised for maximum speed. The other one I most remember was a Dwarf Thief in AD&D 2e (plus Complete <x> books) who was optimised for max Pick Lock (by lvl 2) and Find/Remove Traps (by lvl 3). Another one I never got to play.
I remember when Trogdor tried to optimise a character in Cthulhu Dark. That was hilarious.
@BESW He... how?
Well, normally if you try to do something like cast a spell, you only get your Sanity die: it's not humanly possible, nor is it within your professional expertise.
Rolling just Sanity means you're less likely to do it really well, and means you'll always be checking for Sanity loss after each roll.
... did he make a sorcerer of some kind?
1:42 AM
i think i heard about that.
It actually started to break things.
@BESW ...wut?
eyeballs bulge out
@BESW Awesome. :D
He was running around casting spells! Warding his house, making the party invisible, scrying on distant locations.
And because it's Cthulhu Dark, he always succeeded.
1:45 AM
The basic premise of the game is that nigh-guaranteed success is necessary to just have a chance against the horrific threats you face. I wasn't prepared with strategies to keep the horrific threats overpowered in the face of his open-ended magics.
In the future I'd probably allow it if the profession was more narrowly focused.
Fortune-teller maybe.
@AnubianNoob [wave]
@BESW It sounds like he made a character who was ready and waiting to sit in Cthulhu's lap ;)
also hey there @AnubianNoob
@BESW o/ long time no see
@Shalvenay The big problem was, by adding his profession die, he'd halved his Sanity loss progression.
@BESW So he could sit in Cthulhu's lap and not be a total gibbering idiot in the ensuing conversation ;)
@Shalvenay Yes. Which is totally counter to Cthulhu Dark's ethos.
@AnubianNoob What's new?
1:53 AM
Not much
Anybody got references or resources for representing interactions in cyberspace using the Fate engine?
@BESW Eclipse Phase may have something to say about it.
@BESW Mesh Intrusions, page 71 of EPFate_PlaytestKitFall15_20151121.pdf
It seems they model these things as contests, wherein success by the intruder means they get what they were after, while success by the sysop means the intruder's booted and can get tracked down. (And maybe hacked back.)
Ghost in the Shell usually handles this stuff as hacking and back-hacking (using the very same channel someone's using to hack you to hack them back), but it usually doesn't take much dramatic focus.
The scene that concluded Avatar: the Last Airbender's fight between Aang and the Firelord comes to mind.
There's a scene in Ghost in the Shell: Innocence in which the main characters get trapped in a thought maze, wherein they repeat the same few minutes of exploring a location over and over, and only break out of it because of some discreet outside intervention.
2:48 AM
wow, things got heavy while I was gone...
@doppelgreener: you're a good friend to tackle things like that head-on, but with obvious care and sympathy. That's a tough line to walk.
@nitsua60 are you referring to the conversation with zachiel above?
yup. I was there at the beginning of it--possibly having instigated it?--but ducked out for family time....
hey there @nitsua60
thanks, then. it's tough to know how to feel about conversations like that.
hey @Shalvenay
2:55 AM
I've dealt with some similar stuff, and a certain degree of tough love is needed xD
@nitsua60 how're things been?
Can I ask a the room novice gardening question? (I know I could pop over to Gardening.SE, but I trust you-all better than a group of strangers on the internet...)
@nitsua60 I appreciate that, but question whether that trust might be wise. (My housemate and I are presently struggling to keep some potted tomato plants alive and healthy.)
@Shalvenay finally, a day and a half late, getting motivated to tackle the work-things I should have been doing over the weekend =\
@nitsua60 heh.
going to put my new headset to the test soon
3:04 AM
@nitsua60 maaaaaybe.
@BESW Okay: I've got a few hundred apple seeds germinating in my fridge. (I think that's the word. They're seeds, and I'm keeping them damp and cold and dark.) Some have started sending out their little tap-roots--the longest at about 5mm. Do I start putting these precocious ones into seedling pots now, or wait until early spring?
Ooh, it's a season-related thing. I'm out.
I forgot... Lesser Summer and all =)
@BESW Do you have a guest room? (Or four, if we let the kids come?)
3:26 AM
Our winters are measured by how many times I scream upwind "eff-it, I quit!" on my walk from the parking lot to my building. This morning: once, at 17 deg F (and 20mph wind along the river).
3:40 AM
Guam's north of Brisbane. It's quite close to the equator, much closer than Brisbane. Brisbane has Lesser Summer and Greater Summer. Guam just has Summer.
Or hearkening back to a Monty Python skit: it's got Summer, Summer, Summer, Summer, Summer, Summer, Wind, Summer, Summer, Enormous Catastrophic Tropical Storms, Summer, Summer, Rain, Wind, and Summer.
(preferably read out by a waiter with a ridiculous voice)
@BESW Does that sound reasonably accurate?
@BESW termites for dinner? :D
@Shalvenay I don't know where they've been!
@doppelgreener "I'll take wind..." "WIND IS OFF!"
(and sorry for mixing up who was whence...)
or whence was whom?
or whin was whonce, as they may say
@BESW ohh, the termites, they are a cheeeewin'
3:59 AM
> They dined on mince, and slices of quince,
Which they ate with a runcible spoon;
@eimyr an RPGSE response to the "table of dreams": the first person I thought of is a user who often takes things to meta for "why the downvotes?" and "why was this closed?" reasons and gets berated for whining and nit-picking. But the persistence of their efforts makes me suspect that they're kinda sincere in trying to understand. Or the finest troll we've got. So I'd like to play with them for another perspective on it. And exTSR, 'cause I'm curious if he really talks like that.
(Though if he does, I'm not sure I could take more than a half-hour or so.)
(And because 1e Elemental Evil was my first adventure ever, so I'd like to thank him.)
4:22 AM
@BESW I'm having my very first cold-brew filter coffee. And I'm having it black. It's pretty nice.
(I never have coffee black.)
> Dream Table
1 - You share a taxi with a pig. It is driven by a curiously dressed rabbit who tells you calculus jokes.
2 - You are a hardboiled detective dealing with an outbreak of zombie T-Rexes the size of teacup poodles.
3 - An ordinary conversation with a friend, but in Tersuran.
4 - You wear the cheese. It does not wear you.
5 - A conclave of strangers tells the story of your life, choosing your fate via games of chance.
6 - A sunken city sings "Yellow Submarine" for a sad whale.
7 - The world celebrates your name and builds statues in your honour, but you cannot remember why.
4:42 AM
Hm... I might've finally found my next phone.
Is it coloured like the Next car?
Alas, no.
I can have it any colour I want though, as long as that colour is grey metal.
5:03 AM
@doppelgreener I've heard cold brew is less bitter?
5:14 AM
@Adeptus Yep. This stuff tasted almost sweet but I'm darn sure there was no sugar added. (It's brewed by a guy at my favourite coffee shop which would literally be a stone's throw from where I'm sitting right now, were it not for windows and walls in the way, and bottled there.)
night, all. Dream of tables =)
Cold brew doesn't have much or any acid in it, because it takes heat to extract that.
@nitsua60 Goodnight! :D
Oh hey a @Pixie! Hi!
I am going to head off to check RIGHT NOW what the deal is with this delicious cold brew stuff. And for a pretzel.
@doppelgreener Hi!
And also bye!
"The Elvish prince was so powerful and legendary that his first name alone contained over twenty apostrophes."
@Pixie Call him ' for short
That makes me think of K' (the ' is pronounced).
But it's pronounced "dash," for some reason.
5:35 AM
"War erupted like a volcano. But instead of lava, this volcano shot out armies and war ingredients like horses and swords."
@Pixie these are phenomenal
Also yeah I just had a black coffee that actually tasted sweet, off the coffee beans and water alone.
(Just a bit sweet)
I might have to try that sometime. I don't usually like coffee, because of the bitterness
5:48 AM
'''Kid, I'm the best Werewolf Hunter around,' Hector told him. 'Weren't you responsible for the Furry Con Massacre in 2028?' 'It was dark.'"
I have actually noticed some coffee drinks at my usual coffee shop seem too sweet when they're made cold, vs. when they're hot, but I'm not sure if the cold ones use cold brew or not.
"And for Gimli, son of Glóin, who requests but a single strand of my golden hair,' said Galadriel, 'I give a restraining order.'"
6:04 AM
@Adeptus oh my god XD
You probably shouldn't give random people your hair in a magic setting, anyway. It's a Bad Idea.
@Pixie One of my characters in an Ars Magica game had a file of hair and other body bits of every person he met. He was also working on a way to create false stuff "belonging" to him but actually linking to something nasty.
A counter to scry-and-die, scry-and-nope-nope-nope.
@Magician Thinking ahead. Nice.
6:24 AM
She was killed. Gone. Dead forever.¹ She would never ever ever be alive again.² ———————————— ¹ until next season. ² This sentence is untrue.
They've read Moffat's scripts!
yes they have, how unfortunate
the changes should happen soon XD
2 hours later…
8:15 AM
I will happily tell people how to make cold brew coffee easily and cheaply in their own homes, in whatever quantities you want.
It tastes awesome and doesn't cause heartburn and even my friends who hate coffee like it, or at least are okay with it.
My family's been doing it for a couple years now.
well I hate coffee, and I like the stuff you make, soooo
at least one of said friends accurately likes it
9:06 AM
Ars Technica feels a bit more strongly about the Twitter 10k idea: Twitter’s reported plans to remove Twitter’s defining feature are terrible. (In case you can't tell, it's an opinion piece, more or less a staff blog post.)
it does honestly sound like a horrible idea
like, when Twitter first came out and had that limit, I thought it was silly
but now I feel like it forces people to keep things short sweet and to the point
@BESW After my last message I hopped into the shower and then all of a sudden I got the joke.
@trogdor yep :)
9:45 AM
@BESW I'm listening to your coffee advice.
@doppelgreener Thanks for chipping in to the discussion about 10 hours ago and finishing where sleep got the best of me.
10:00 AM
Folding a fitted sheet is really hard. [passes out]
Hi, Pixie.
I agree, it's nigh impossible.
And there is not a universal way to do it.
There's one way that works really well... if you do it right.
[watches 10 videos of the same technique several times each, still fails]
Does it work for any size/mattress height?
Most are using sheets that look to be full or queen like mine, but I saw someone do it with a crib sheet as well. Ah, if it were that small... :P
@Pixie I have been trained by my mother multiple times and still cannot recall and figure it out.
I am 90% sure that folding a fitted sheet properly first requires conducting demonic deals for access to non-euclidean geometry.
10:05 AM
I got the L shape finally... but the final product was still a lumpy mess. xD
I certainly feel like I'm conducting a demonic ritual as I raise my sheet-covered hands.
I don't care about how my sheets are folded all that much, but it seems harder than folding a US flag
I don't have much space, so properly folding it would really help me out.
@eimyr Well you do have that whole "fold it into a triangle" procedure to follow sometimes
Ah, the onward march of "Oh! I think I've got it! [winds up with a result that's somehow even worse than the last] ..."
10:33 AM
@Pixie each successive step somehow brings you closer to an unfolded fitted sheet than when you started
@eimyr Quick and dirty: Put cheap coffee grounds and water in a pitcher. Leave it in the back of the 'fridge for 24 hours. Filter the grounds out. Enjoy. (I do about 7 heaping spoon of grounds in three cups of water, but it's an art not a science. Experiment. Changing the time can also give you different strengths, but under 12 is useless and over 48 is nasty.)
So a bit like cold tea infusion
@doppelgreener It's mysterious that way.
Advanced Level: Use a tea infuser so you don't have to filter out the grounds at the end. Add spices to the grounds for awesomeness. (I use cinnamon, cloves, turmeric, red pepper, and on really special occasions cracked cardamom.)
@eimyr Pretty much, yes.
But it takes longer and needs filtering after 'cause the grounds don't settle like tea leaves.
There are fancier kinds of cold brew. What I'm describing is "plunge." Some coffee shops do "drip" or "press" which require more equipment/attention.
But whatever. I get great results with this.
The only catch is, you gotta know how much coffee you want a day ahead of time.
I drink coffee so rarely I don't think I'll use it a lot.
10:39 AM
(Though if you're in a hurry, pour hot-but-not-boiler water into the pitcher and let it sit a while before sticking it in the fridge. Not quite as good, but a decent compromise.)
@BESW birb lawyers
That looks really cool.
11:18 AM
@Pixie I think I know what you mean, but I can't actually make that technique work
it's always still,.. wrong
@doppelgreener same exact thing here
@trogdor Exactly!
it involves like, arcane folding techniques that I keep thinking I understand, but then one thing evades me
Whatcha playin' lately, RPG.SE folk?
still Fate here
though we did some recent Great Ork Gods
An unholy blend of Atomic-Robo-meets-Umdaar, to be specific.
11:22 AM
and some.......oh god what was it called
Just about everything is on hold for me currently besides Kingmaker.
ah, Betrayal at House on the Hill
We're about to have a cyberspace battle for the AI of an Atlantean generation ship, between an ordinary human computer hacker and a metalbending ghost controlled by a sorceress.
though it isn't an RPG so don't know if that counts
@trogdor the boardgame?
11:24 AM
that is exactly the one
well, I didn't ask specifically...
but it's a pretty storytelly boardgame
true enough
I have an epiphany.
59 secs ago, by eimyr
@trogdor the boardgame?
11:25 AM
but you don't need to role play in it, and we typically don't,.. much
Trogdor: The Boardgame
I am unsure how exciting this would be
Depends on your social status. If you're a peasant it might be distressing.
@eimyr Play only in well-ventilated areas. Check your fire extinguisher's date before starting. Refill packs available.
PEGI 1218: Not suitable for peasants.
11:26 AM
roll anything and lose a turn to reading
currently anyway
I am reading so much stuff right now it isn't even funny
What are you reading then?
I just finished the Soul of an Octopus, I am reading Ceasers Way, and Sense and Sensibility, and a book for a test right now.
almost done with all of them
though the test one is more of a, I have read it several times and will continue this pattern until I at least have taken the test kinda thing
and several Christmas books are of course behind those in a line
and you may have guessed I sometimes just need to jump between 2 or 3 different ones at any given time
Cesar's Way,.. spelled that sooo wrong
I don't know if you ever saw the Dog Whisperer show, but my mother decided I needed this book so I read it XD
Yeah, I saw it.
I strongly disagree with the so called whisperer.
mm, well that is perfectly acceptable
but I will finish the book nontheless
I do not agree with his methods and convictions and I actually think he is doing more harm than good. It's the sort of a lazy person's dog training, where you make the dog miserable until it obeys.
11:35 AM
Sense and Sensibility kinda lags compared to Pride and Prejudice, but I am still going to finish that too XD
I recommend Victoria Stilwell instead.
She doesn't look half as confident and imposing as Cesar, but at least the dog is happy when she is done with it.
has she written any books on it? XD
They are mostly quite thin and to the point, affordable as well.
Sort of "read a chapter and go spend time with your dog instead" attitude.
11:38 AM
my first time in chat..
The best of welcomes then. What's up?
Thank you..nothing much....what going on here?
Im an engg undergrad btw...
We talk about RPGs mostly and when the topic runs dry, anything else.
@eimyr to be fair, I have not had a dog since I was a kid
Hmmm....is it fun?RPGs?
I mean....is GTA one?
11:39 AM
@trogdor I see. Well, I never had a dog (afraid of them since childhood) but watching her and reading gave me enough confidence to socialize with them.
cats are the only animals here, and I need no reminding that they are just soulless killing machines,... and also very lazy
@Sidarth God, no.
It's tabletop pen&paper RPGs.
@eimyr that is a fine endorsement indeed
This is about tabletop, paper-and-pen, dice-on-table RPGs.
11:40 AM
Arqade is the site about video games.
I'm sorry...:)
Though you are welcome here nonetheless.
You are! But we're going to be talking about beating up imaginary dragons or treatising with them and whatnot.
(whenever we happen to actually be on topic, at least)
11:41 AM
Well....actually....I know D&D from the sitcom the big bang theory
@trogdor Victoria Stilwell believes that dogs are simple creatures that do not understand why you are suddenly so angry at them when you punish them - and that they see you as a non-dog creature too, so Cesar's domination techniques fall short.
@trogdor It's all about positive reinforcement. Instead of teaching the dog not to do something and punish when it fails, you teach it to do the opposite and reward the correct behaviour.
@Sidarth It's much less nerdy in real life.
@eimyr seems fair enough
@eimyr Cthulhu 6th edition (in 1890 Daedwood) & Vampire / Wraith blend (Revised OWoD) set in 1981 Glasgow
OK, maybe not less nerdy. I can be less nerdy. But certainly is less cryptic and silly.
@Ahriman what is that?
11:43 AM
ill just hang around and read your convs...:)
Q: What is role-playing, and where do I start?

Randomman159I have been told that roleplaying is great fun. I've looked and looked and it all seems so complicated. Could anyone tell me a good place to start, and what sort of things you end up doing in roleplaying?

In case you were still unsure.
@eimyr Yeah, and the domination model is kind of... outmoded?
@eimyr why thank you!
@Pixie Research shows it results in aggressive behaviour more often than not. European kennel clubs discourage it, as agression is difficult to eradicate once present.
@eimyr ersponse to earlier question (catching up with chat)
11:46 AM
@Ahriman the Table of Dreams?
Why 1981 Glasgow specifically?
@eimyr And IIRC, it tends to look at dogs as wolves, which they are not, and it also tends to assume that the alpha model in wolves as previously understood is correct, which it isn't.
@eimyr No (no clue what that was about). Rather what I'm currently palying
I asked who from RPG.SE would sit around your Table of Dreams, but I didn't get much response in that direction :)
Not that it matters.
@Pixie he has so far compared them to wolves a lot in the book
@Pixie I think you're right. My GF is a vet, so I get some trickle knowledge here and there, but I wouldn't call myself an expert. Mostly I just ask her.
11:49 AM
Glasgow started in 1980, but we did some timejumping after clearing the city from Sabbat influence (playing as Giovanni)
@Pixie What's with this alpha model business? What's the previous version? Do we have any good ideas of what it's like now?
@eimyr Ah! I don't know anybody good enough to make a decision.
@doppelgreener Let me find a good article. In short, though, the whole alpha/beta/etc. pack structure with the violent dominant wolves on top came from the study of captive wolves and didn't actually translate to wild wolf behavior. The behavior observed was abnormal.
@Pixie I would imagine so in captivity
In the wild, wolf packs are generally family units.
11:53 AM
if I know one thing about that, it is that captive animals will certainly not act like they normally would in the wild
And tasks/authority is based on abilities and preferences.
Captive study assessed that the strongest wolf dominates the others.
7 hours ago, by BESW
> Dream Table
1 - You share a taxi with a pig. It is driven by a curiously dressed rabbit who tells you calculus jokes.
2 - You are a hardboiled detective dealing with an outbreak of zombie T-Rexes the size of teacup poodles.
3 - An ordinary conversation with a friend, but in Tersuran.
4 - You wear the cheese. It does not wear you.
5 - A conclave of strangers tells the story of your life, choosing your fate via games of chance.
6 - A sunken city sings "Yellow Submarine" for a sad whale.
7 - The world celebrates your name and builds statues in your honour, but you cannot remember why.
In the wild the strongest wolf is the policeman, and the smartest wolf is what you would call the Alpha.
@BESW That is a weird and unusual corruption of my original idea. And I can't decide whether I like it or not.
@doppelgreener This article is about dogs, but it addresses wolves under the "Bad Extrapolation" section.
> As the offspring mature they disperse from the pack; the only long-term members of the group are the breeding pair. By contrast, in captivity unrelated wolves are forced to live together for many years, creating tension between mature adults that doesn’t happen in a natural, wild pack.
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