Language Overflow

Magsi

05:41

Hi, I am new in this room.
Would you like to welcome me?
Specially my teachers @Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. and @DamkerngT.

CopperKettle

05:57

Good morning all.

I don't very much understand this comment:

Took me a while to see how this answer does in fact extend to other examples where "best" is used without "the": the deciding part is if the noun becomes "definite in [the] context", not whether or not there's a real noun. — Dan Getz 50 mins ago

I wonder if it's possible to use the with a dummy pronoun. Or maybe he meant some other thing..

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Pronouns don't usually take determiners.

Anonymous

Sometimes they do.

Anonymous

But I'm failing to think of a scenario where dummy it or there would take one.

CopperKettle

Good morning, Snails! I know they usually don't do that (0:

When I was composing the answer, I recalled things like "You are the best".

But that might be an ellipsis of "the best man", "the best one", etc.

Anonymous

Yeah, you can try to explain it that way.

Anonymous

06:06

But what about the most important of them?

Anonymous

Do you think something is elided after most important?

CopperKettle

@snailboat Well, the pronoun them indicates some real-life objects

"The most important one of them"

"It is most important that you leave this message at 19:00" <<< Dummy it, no reference to some real noun.

Anonymous

Yeah, I guess one(s) works.

Anonymous

I guess the ellipsis approach works.

Anonymous

How about this:

Anonymous

06:09

> She ran [ the fastest ~~that~~ she had ever run ].

CopperKettle

"the fastest run/lap"?

Anonymous

What if we're just talking about her speed?

CopperKettle

Then it becomes tricky.

Maybe that's an ellipsis of "She ran at the fastest speed", but then "she had ever run" fails to attach. "She ran at the fastest speed" she had ever run at"? O_o

Anonymous

A lot of the time, you have a choice between analyzing something as ellipsis or just analyzing it the way it is.

Anonymous

I don't know which is simpler in the case of superlatives.

Anonymous

06:14

Or comparatives.

CopperKettle

We can say that there's something implied after the fastest, something noun-like. A ghost noun.

@snailboat Comparatives?

the more the merrier?

Anonymous

the more important of the two

Anonymous

But yes, The more, the merrier! is an example of comparatives, it's just a bit special.

CopperKettle

Yes, I know. It's a vestige of the case system.

Which is still allive in Russian --- чем больше, тем веселее (the more the merrier!)

I wonder if "expletive-pronoun" is the same as "dummy-pronoun". We have both tags. I've just noticed expletive-pronoun. We might merge them somehow.

There's a great explanation of extraposition in a relative clause.

lekon chekon

06:40

Hey.
I was wondering, should one use the past perfect even when there's no ambiguity, or should one keep to using the simple past?

When writing the test yesterday, i used the pen i had found in my bag.
When writing the test yesterday, i used the pen i found in my bag.

CopperKettle

Hey. I dunno. I'd use the second sentence, it's shorter.

lekon chekon

Should i put it up as a question on the main site?

CopperKettle

You might! You will turn into an expert on Past Perfect and Backshifting! (0:

lekon chekon

Backshifting.
I still struggle with that.
I wonder if backshifting an entire sentence, or mixing tenses changes its meaning.

If i bought that apartment, we'd have a place to party whenever we wished.
If i bought that apartment, we'd have a place to party whenever we would wish.
If i bought that apartment, we'd have a place to party whenever we wish.

._.

CopperKettle

With your chess skills and English skills, you might just read a chapter from CGEL or Quirk, make a summary in a copy-book, write a blog post about it, and it will be you whom people will approach with such questions.

(busy answering a question at ELL)

lekon chekon

07:14

xD ah. i wish. xD

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Yes, they mean the same thing.

Anonymous

They both refer to a pronoun that is used for syntactic reasons, but doesn't have any meaning of its own.

Anonymous

I think dummy is the better choice.

CopperKettle

Yes, dummy is easier to understand.

An interesting quote I've dug up while answering a question:

> On the other hand, the linguists Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey K. Pullum claim that utterances such as "They invited Sandy and I" are "heard constantly in the conversation of people whose status as speakers of Standard English is clear"; and that "Those who condemn it simply assume that the case of a pronoun in a coordination must be the same as when it stands alone. Actual usage is in conflict with this assumption."

lekon chekon

@snailboat, i thought you were talking to me, and you inadvertently put in copper's name in place of mine.

:|

I looked up the book, is it written by Geraldine Woods?

CopperKettle

07:28

What book?

lekon chekon

dummy?

English grammar for dummies? ._.

Anonymous

We were talking about the technical term dummy pronoun.

CopperKettle

I did not mention it. (0:

But generally speaking, the series "for Dummies" is a fun read. I used it when studying programming languages.

lekon chekon

._.) well, don't i feel silly now.

Still, just to confirm, when you said "Yes, they mean the same thing.", you weren't referring to my sentences, right? @snailboat

CopperKettle

A great book would be a book containing the text of Swan's PEU but with hyperlinks to pages in both CGEL and Quirk. So that you could read a simple explanation first, and then dive into deeper matter if so you wish.

"If i bought that apartment, we'd have a place to party in whenever we wish(ed)". --- looks okay to me. I would only add in.

lekon chekon

07:33

simple explanation first, please.

Dam told me to go through Swan's Practical English Usage.
It's coming in handy.
But it doesn't cover everything i have a doubt about.

CopperKettle

Now that I've read your sentences, I doubt whether I should have wrote "if so you wish" or "if so you wished".

D'oh.

Anonymous

@lekonchekon You can tell which message I was replying to if you go back and click on the arrow that appears to the left of the message I typed.

lekon chekon

And i've been wondering, does it matter what tense i using after i'm done with the if + past simple/ present simple , ...would/will part?

Since copper says
If i bought that apartment, we'd have a place to party whenever we wished.
and
If i bought that apartment, we'd have a place to party whenever we wish.
mean the same.

CopperKettle

@lekonchekon My reasoning is that "whenever we wish" does not strictly belong to the apodosis "we'd have a place to party". It's just an additional clause.

lekon chekon

._.) i wonder when i'm gonna attain a good grasp of how things work. ._.

Anonymous

07:42

I think to party whenever we wish(ed) is a constituent.

Anonymous

@lekonchekon They both work.

lekon chekon

what does a constituent mean?

Anonymous

Constituents are how you divide up sentences.

Anonymous

Like, noun phrases, for example.

lekon chekon

I see.

well, that makes things easier for me, i guess.

CopperKettle

07:46

maybe "whenever we wished" is more "distanced", less achievable from the standpoint of the speaker.

lekon chekon

we use past tense to talk about the hypothetical, right?

CopperKettle

Or just to comply with the overall tense of the sentence/clause

lekon chekon

so, if a person wasn't to divide up sentences, how would they know what tense to go with?

CopperKettle

0

Q: Meanng of past-tense "wished" in If "i bought that apartment, we'd have a place to party whenever we wished"

Both these conditional sentences are grammatical: If i bought that apartment, we'd have a place to party whenever we wish. If i bought that apartment, we'd have a place to party whenever we wished. Is there a slight difference in meaning between wish and wished though? Does the p...

conditional-constructions

Now I'll go to the store. Good bye! (0:

Damkerng T.

08:48

@CopperKettle Another possibility that he was thinking about was something like We're visiting another best city. It seems like he was generalizing your assertion "There's no noun that we can attach the to here" to apply to all other cases. Just my thought. To be sure, I think we should wait for his reply.

@Magsi Welcome to the room!

@Magsi Please note that the two rooms aren't the same. The topic of this room is Random thoughts about language, language learning, learners, and their language. It's not the main chat room of ELL.

lekon chekon

@CopperKettle, sorry, i had to go out to get a few things. :|

oh wait.
he's not here. ._.

Damkerng T.

:-)

lekon chekon

09:03

hey, dam.

Damkerng T.

Hey, @lekonchekon!

lekon chekon

Help me out with something, as you usually do. :p

What're you up to these days?
What have you been up to these days?

What does the second one come off not as good an option as the first?

in my opinion, at least.

Damkerng T.

I think you meant Why.

Actually, with these days, I like the second a little better, but I'm okay with both.

lekon chekon

yes, why is what i was going for. :P

.-. huh.

Maybe, if i had a better concept of how things work, i'd see things from where your standpoint. ._.

Damkerng T.

In any case, I think of both of them as idioms, so I wouldn't analyze too deep into it.

(Another pair: How are you? How do you do?)

lekon chekon

09:12

is it wrong to try to modify idioms?

Damkerng T.

Most of the time, it will sound at least strange.

Anonymous

Think about idioms in your native language.

Damkerng T.

E.g., "Hey, long time no meet!" :P

Anonymous

What have you been up to lately?

lekon chekon

That's not what i meant..
i was going for.
Instead of using "From where i stand", using "From where i'm standing."

Instead of "On the bright/brighter side", "At the bright side" .. "Look at the bright side" Instead of "On the bright side."

On the... seems more appropriate though.

i don't really know why that is.

Slight modifications, without altering much of what it means is what i meant. :|

CopperKettle

09:18

Always look on the bright side of life!

lekon chekon

What about the first example? .-.
"From where i'm standing" seems pretty right to me.

Even "From where i stood then" seems right to me, when talking about an opinion i had concerning something that might have, or might not have changed later.

"From where i stood then, the things i had done seemed right"

"From where i stood then, getting married seemed like a terrible option"

CopperKettle

1

Q: Why a sentence starts with Past Perfect but continues in Past Simple?

Please have a look at this extract from an interview, the question was: What was it that made you want to choose the drums ? The blind Baron asked me if I was interested in learning and I took him up on his offer. I had always secretly wanted to learn how to play, but the opportunity ne...

past-perfect past

A nice question! This intermittent use of Past Perfect has been bugging me mildly too.

I'll star it. I have a question on the use of PP in Leo Rosten's book. THere's an answer, but if fails to explain it clearly.

lekon chekon

09:37

i'll give this one a look.
i have doubts concerning this. :3

CopperKettle

"Why does a sentence start with Past Perfect but continues in Past Simple?" - I changed the heading to make it grammatical, but maybe I really wrecked it.

Because does does not connect to continues

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle It's an interesting sentence!

lekon chekon

it should be continue. :|

so far as i think. :|

CopperKettle

@lekonchekon Fixed!

@DamkerngT. Yes, a curious sentence.

Maybe such questions do not need do-support.

Damkerng T.

I speculate that people write both ways.

CopperKettle

09:43

"Ellipsis of do-support in but-coordination a cause of head-scratching"

Damkerng T.

I retract. It seems like people rarely write either!

The more common pattern is "Why does ... but not ...?"

lekon chekon

in his question, if they were "Had presented", and "Had persued", would it be wrong?

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Interesting! So it's awkward not to switch to negative in but-coordinated questions.

Damkerng T.

Oh, found one: WHY DOES MODERATE EXERCISE ENHANCE, BUT INTENSE TRAINING DEPRESS

CopperKettle

Nice find!

Damkerng T.

09:45

Yay!

@lekonchekon I don't think it's wrong, but it'd make me read the sentence a little differently.

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Start and continue

CopperKettle

@snailboat Thanks, Snails, I've fixed it already!

Anonymous

Yay!

CopperKettle

(0:

lekon chekon

@DamkerngT. i see. :3

Anonymous

09:49

Sorry I seem to always be telling you things you already know :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Which we love to hear because they're pleasantly reassuring!

Hmm... I missed this part: What was it that made you want to choose the drums?

That would imply that he now knows how to play it.

Now I wonder what interview that was, and the Blind Baron is who!

Anonymous

10:13

and who the Blind Baron is!

Anonymous

Term of the day: information literacy

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Thanks!

The plainest is still the best, after all.

Damkerng T.

10:41

TIL: searching for canon on ELL (I think it's the same anywhere on SE) won't return any results with canonical.

Anonymous

I only rarely use SE's search. It's easier to use Google and search for site:ell.stackexchange.com

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I don't know if I should feel glad or sad to hear that! :D

Anonymous

I use SE's search for certain special things, like searching for deleted:1.

Damkerng T.

Ah, that makes sense! Google can't do that.

Damkerng T.

11:51

It's often difficult to verify what philosophers really said in the past.

I just read something about Confucious.

Which led me to this page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuang_Zhou

Argh! I misspelled his name again! 'Confucius'

A-ha! So, it's perhaps not something someone made up over here only recently.

> Wandering at Ease in the Zhuangzi: A Postmodern Critique

(It's the part where Confucius met the old fisherman.)

Damkerng T.

12:16

> 且人有八疵，事有四患，不可不察也。非其事而事之，謂之摠；莫之顧而進之，謂之佞；希意道言，謂之諂；不擇是非而言，謂之諛；好言人之惡，謂之讒；析交離親，謂之賊；稱譽‌詐偽以敗惡人，謂之慝；不擇善否，兩容頰適，偷拔其所欲，謂之險。此八疵者，外以亂人，內以傷身，君子不友，明君不臣。所謂四患者，好經大事，變更易常，以挂功名，謂之叨；‌專知擅事，侵人自用，謂之貪；見過不更，聞諫愈甚，謂之很；人同於己則可，不同於己，雖善不善，謂之矜。此四患也。能去八疵，無行四患，而始可教已。

> And moreover men are liable to eight defects, and (the conduct of) affairs to four evils; of which we must by all means take account. To take the management of affairs which do not concern him is called monopolising. To bring forward a subject which no one regards is called loquacity. To lead men on by speeches made to please them is called sycophancy. To praise men without regard to right or wrong is called flattery. To be fond of speaking of men's wickedness is called calumny. To part friends and separate relatives is called mischievousness. To praise a man deceitfully, or in the same w…

Wow! The Chinese version is very concise!

1

A: whether "have" is a main verb or not

"To have to do" is a substitute form for must. As "to have to do" is a shortened version of "to have the obligation to do" I would say "to have" in this use is a normal verb. "to have" is an auxiliary verb in the perfect tenses. Your sentence means: It is possible that people have to go hungry/...

I upvoted the answer, but I'm not sure whether we should think of to have or to have to as an auxiliary verb.

CopperKettle

I'm lazily going through "grammar" tags, and these questions surface.

Damkerng T.

Oops! He wrote "to have" is an auxiliary verb in the perfect tenses!

sobbing, regretting my vote...

CopperKettle

You can retract your vote!

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Too late!

CopperKettle

Isn't have an auxiliary in perfect tenses? Is it "a perfect marker" or something then?

Damkerng T.

12:29

Let's see. The sentence was People there may have to go hungry.

I think it's just an auxiliary verb, no tense.

CopperKettle

Both may and have are auxiliaries here?

Damkerng T.

I think so. Not 100% sure.

I think go should be the main verb.

CopperKettle

Midnight munchies mangle memory

People there have to go hungry. --- is this grammatical, I wonder

have to is a semi-modal, IMHO, so it can't be a main verb

Yes, go is the main one.

" "to have" is an auxiliary verb in the perfect tenses" -- he was just thinking aloud, telling of another usage of have

Damkerng T.

nods -- He was kind of mixing things up somehow.

1

Q: "Also / As well"- Does this make any Difference?

While mailing, I have confused my self like, I have sent the same to Kevin also. I have sent the same to Kevin as well. Which one is correct ? Is there any difference between the two ?

word-usage word-choice word-order

Maybe this one is a duplicate...

but of what question!

CopperKettle

12:46

2

Q: What is the proper usage of"also","too" and "as well"?

When I want to talk to someone and the sentence I am using has "too" or "also" or "as well" in it, I get confused and feel like I am using the wrong structure. For example: Friend: It's raining here Me: I wish it was raining here too ( or I wish it was also raining here or I wish it was rainin...

word-usage sentence-construction word-choice

Damkerng T.

nods -- I found that, too.

And also this one: ell.stackexchange.com/q/73713/3281

But I like your comment in the new question better.

> When I've finished painting the bathroom, I'm going to do the kitchen too/also/as well.

Though also may not be wrong there, I think it sounds a bit weird at the end of the sentence.

CopperKettle

maybe it should be tagged "adverb-position"

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

0

Q: Would you help me with adverbs, such as also?

Not only did he give everyone gifts but he invited them to a party also. Not only did he give everyone gifts but he invited them to a party as well/too. Which one is more common? or which one is accurate or correct?

adverbs

As a non-native, I think the first one is less common and probably non-standard. However, if you move also to the position after he, though, you get a typical and usual pattern 'Not only do X ... but X also ...' — Fantasier Apr 13 '14 at 13:40

Damkerng T.

Nice find!

CopperKettle

12:50

thanks!

Damkerng T.

I voted to close! :D

CopperKettle

Why?

Damkerng T.

The main point of the two questions are identical, imo.

("What if I replace this also with as well?" and vice versa)

CopperKettle

okay

Damkerng T.

We could copy the answer in the old question over to the new one, e.g.

> I am a native speaker, and the first sentence is not standard. It should be
- Not only did he give everyone gifts, but he also invited them to a party.
The second sentence is OK as is with "as well", but requires a comma before "too". It is also acceptable to put a comma before "as well", if you want.

:D

CopperKettle

12:58

(0:

Damkerng T.

(but the example sentence is needed to be fixed. :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

CopperKettle

13:11

I don't like this answer:

2

A: "Even though unfit" vs. "Unfit as I am"

What is unfit, you or the mountain? In the choice you selected, it's unclear. However, the second selection makes it crystal clear which noun gets the modification. Another reason #1 is incorrect: You need a noun after the phrase "even though". As an alternative you could use "despite" follow...

I like Snailboat's answer, which she for some reason deleted.

It's clearly a verbless clause with I as the implied subject. I think I'll downvote that winning answer.

I read recently about such kind of clause in Quirk et al.

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle I'm not sure. It sounds a bit odd to me with "Even".

CopperKettle

Why? It's an adverbial subjectless verbless clause

Damkerng T.

It sounds much better with just "Though" alone.

@CopperKettle I'm thinking that maybe it's possible grammatically, but unlikely, idiomatically.

CopperKettle

So you think even necessitates an explicit subject. Could be so..

Damkerng T.

It looks like I agree with my old self!

CopperKettle

13:18

Anyway, the reasoning in the answer is misleading -- it's as if verbless subjectless clauses were nonexistent.

Damkerng T.

reading the answer...

nods -- I agree with you. I didn't upvote it.

Could be the OP.

Oh, the answer was posted almost a month later!

CopperKettle

@snailboat - you should probably resurrect your answer. Even though unfit to judge, I believe it's great.

Damkerng T.

:-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

+1

I'm thinking that 3 is perhaps syntactically correct, too.

> 3) While ever out of condition, I still was able to get to the top of the mountain.

CopperKettle

13:29

Maybe, but it sounds strange to me. Ever? O_o Sound dated.

Damkerng T.

> During the time that this debate is ever unfolding, there is yet another boundary, the economic boundary, which divides and develops border identity.

CopperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

Maybe we could defend for any of the choices!

CopperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Cambridge Michigan Grammar...

> cambridgemichigan.org/institutions/products-services/tests/…

> The MET is a standardized English as a foreign language (EFL) examination, aimed at upper beginner to lower advanced levels--A2 to C1 of the Common European Framework of Reference (CEFR).

stack

13:34

What is shorten of "advertising" ? "ad" or "adv" ?

Damkerng T.

I'd use ad.

But not that I really know.

stack

ok, tnx

Damkerng T.

14:03

Sometimes it takes me a while before I can figure out I'm listening to Indonesian, not Japanese.

StoneyB

14:38

@DamkerngT. I think your instinct is sound, but it's not the even though unfit construction -- it's the fact that the even though sense is echoed unnecessarily and annoyingly in still. And that's a problem that all the versions have. A point off for Cambridge/Michigan.

Damkerng T.

Thanks for the feedback. I take it that "Unfit as I am" sounds least grating, and hence is the answer.

StoneyB

I guess ... people who design English texts seem to speak a different dialect than I do!

Damkerng T.

Hmm... that makes me a bit curious, how often people say or write (Even) though X, I still Y...

@StoneyB Oh! But the test's from Michigan. (Not sure)

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. "Say" is probably irrelevant: the most fluent users of English make mistakes in speech they wouldn't commit on paper. ... The test appears to be some sort of collaborative venture between Cambridge and Michigan. But what I meant is that the folks who write these tests have a tin ear.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

> Though nearly fourteen, he was still a child.

> (COCA)

StoneyB

14:52

Neither 1. nor 2. is "wrong", but they're both sorta strenuous. If they dropped the "still" I'd find both acceptable. BUT: 2. is self-consciously literary, and 1. is straining for literariness. I agree with your initial judgment, that the natural way of using even though is with a clausal oblique: "Even though I was unfit ..."

But as usual, you've got a better ear than the test-writers!

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Ah, but in this case, the test-writers are native speakers, I think!

I surely can't claim that I've got any better ear.

StoneyB

Native speakers of a very narrow dialect ...

But you seem to have appropriated a much broader base into your experience.

Damkerng T.

Thank you for the kind words!

I still keep reminding myself that I'm just a learner, though.

CopperKettle

Good evening, Stoney!

"Even though I was unfit, I still was able to get to the top of the mountain." --- would even though be a clausal oblique here? I don't understand "clausal oblique". Oblique is a case...

StoneyB

15:07

@DamkerngT. Aren't we all?!

Damkerng T.

One way or other, I suppose! :D

CopperKettle

Ah, maybe I was unfit is a clause, and because it hinges to "even though", it's a clausal oblique.

StoneyB

Hi, @CopperKettle ... Oblique is CGEL's useful term for the "object" of a preposition; I'd call though a preposition taking, as you say, a clausal oblique, and even an adverb modifying the PP .

CopperKettle

@StoneyB Thank you! It was cryptic to me.

StoneyB

As a completely amateur grammarian I'm a sort of terminological jackdaw: I find a new term and use it with abandon until I learn how to use it right.

CopperKettle

15:16

(0:

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Hey guys

@DamkerngT. A sentence I'd write.

CopperKettle

Good evening, Muhammad!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

\o

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. LOL

I feel like crying! Look at what I just found! ctext.org/sanguo-yanyi/ch1

(To be able to read Romance of the Three Kingdoms in Chinese from beginning to end is an item in my bucket list.)

(This is not technically "in Chinese", but the bi-text helps a lot!)

CopperKettle

15:32

"The world under heaven, after a long period of division, tends to unite; after a long period of union, tends to divide."

A great starting sentence.

Damkerng T.

It has 120 chapters; only the first 52 have been translated in the bitext. This is more than I dreamed for anyway!

CopperKettle

Hasn't it been translated in full? That's strange.

Damkerng T.

I think it's been translated somewhere else, but not very literally, I guess.

I've read its Thai version (or versions, if you count skimming through a few pages as reading), but it was quite literal, as far as I can tell. I bought its Chinese version back from Beijing but I have never finished a chapter!

CopperKettle

Literal in the sense of "too close to the original, too carbon-copy" or in the sense "artfully translated into literary language"?

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle I wanted to read it one line at a time. I can't match the translation I have with the original like that, but this bitext seems to allow me to do so.

CopperKettle

15:42

nods

"“I know it's been a while since I've come out to see you—” “Twenty-one days,” Erin says" (Google Books) --- isn't this an error?

Damkerng T.

Wow, the site has both the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which is a novel, and the Records of the Three Kingdoms, which is a historical text.

@CopperKettle It sounds like an error to me!

CopperKettle

0

Q: Another wrong test? ("Since" and Present Perfect/Past Simple)

There's this test. The relevant part is: I have visited so many beautiful places since I ______ (come) to Utah. Apparently it's more natural to say verb in a Past Simple after "since": "since i came" = 40,900,000 results "since i've come" = 8,830,000 results But is this grammatically in...

sentence-construction

I asked on the heels of this question.

Damkerng T.

I'm pretty sure that Google doesn't have that many results!

CopperKettle

How could it be grammatical, I wonder. FumbleFingers says that it's grammatical.

Possible duplicate of Proper usage of the word since. Also Since and present perfect tense. Your example Present Perfect is "grammatical", but native speakers would rarely bother with that unnecessarily complex tense, since it's unlikely to add anything useful to the meaning. — FumbleFingers 6 mins ago

Damkerng T.

Maybe it's acceptable to him.

CopperKettle

15:47

He provides links to posts that are unrelated to the matter being discussed. Strange.

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

> "Uh, listen, Bob," I faltered, "I think I ought to tell you that since I've come back from Camp David I've talked to a lawyer. (NY Magazine, 1976)

What? Two Present Perfects? O_o

Damkerng T.

Ah, PEU 522.3

> Since can be used as a conjunction of time, introducing its own clause. The tense in the since-clause can be perfect or past, depending on the meaning.

CopperKettle

> "We visit my parents every week since we have had the car".

O_o Does it mean because?

Damkerng T.

I'm not that sure about Swan's "depending on the meaning".

CopperKettle

15:53

I either.

Damkerng T.

But I can notice that he uses different kind of verbs in the two versions.

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. From what Wikipedia tells me, this seems to be the 1976 Moss Roberts translation; in 1991 he published a full version in multiple volumes. There's also a complete 1925 Brewitt-Taylor translation; it's been reprinted, but apparently in an abridged form.

Damkerng T.

Event vs. state

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. I noticed that too. Quite unlike the sentences I've fished out the Google Books. They use event verbs freely.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Thanks for the lead!

@CopperKettle nods -- Maybe it's just coincidental in PEU.

CopperKettle

15:58

> But we could use the present perfect if since refers to an action that started at some indefinite time in the past and has some kind of 'psychological relevance' to the speaker at the moment of speaking. (from an answer by GoDucks)

PEU fails to explain this.

If asked prior to today, I'd earmark such usage as erroneous.

Damkerng T.

nods

> You’ve drunk about ten cups of tea since you’ve been sitting here.

It's difficult to read that since as "because".

Nihilist_Frost

I remember this myth that "cavemen (or some other prehistoric people) were physically incapable of pronouncing the letter E".

saying "pronouncing the letter E" is ambiguous.

Damkerng T.

Hah! Oh, it's just a myth.

CopperKettle

because they had no letters, probably

Nihilist_Frost

who heard that myth?

CopperKettle

16:04

I've never heard it

Nihilist_Frost

@CopperKettle It's completely meaningless! At first I interpreted the unable-to-pronounce sound as /i/.

but then, you have English's confusing spelling.

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. This since + Pf is a use I hadn't noticed before; I think you guys have put your finger on what licenses it. Ordinarily since denotes a timespan stretching from an explicitly prior timepoint up to RT -- "Since we came here ..." But when you use a stative verb in which the timepoint refers to the inception of the state, you use a "sham" perfect, in which the HAVE + PaPpl construction is a past-marker.

3

Nihilist_Frost

which has more confusing orthography: English, French, or what else?

StoneyB

I'm gonna hafta add this to the Canonical Post.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Yay!

StoneyB

16:08

[the list gets longer and longer and longer]

CopperKettle

> Since I've come to know you, I've visited so many beautiful places.

> Ever since I've come to know the Lord, He has taught me how to love and appreciate a wife. (Google Books)

> Ever since I came to know the Lord, He has taught me how to love and appreciate a wife. (Strange, probably)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Is it always "come to verb" if it's in the present perfect?

(I speculate that the verb after "come to" would be stative.)

CopperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Ah, I can now understand your message. I dropped my not again!

CopperKettle

nods

@CopperKettle I don't think this part discusses only girls. It mustn't be a typo, because the noun "child" is used as feminine in other parts of the book,too. — V.Lydia 50 secs ago

Curious.

Damkerng T.

16:22

"the textbook on linguistics"

Maybe the book wasn't discussing English.

Or maybe the author simply opted to use her as a generic pronoun.

It was him and then him or her and then sometimes just her and then most often them.

CopperKettle

I've found the book

Victoria Fromkin

Victoria Fromkin (May 16, 1923 – January 19, 2000) was an American linguist who taught at UCLA. She studied slips of the tongue, mishearing, and other speech errors and applied this to phonology, the study of how the sounds of a language are organized in the mind. == Biography == Fromkin was born in Passaic, New Jersey as Victoria Alexandra Landish on May 16, 1923. She earned a bachelor's degree in economics from the University of California at Berkeley in 1944. She married Jack Fromkin, a childhood friend from Passaic, in 1948, and they settled in Los Angeles, California. Their son, Mark, was...

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle applauds

CopperKettle

0

A: Which is more formal: "My parents will reside with me and my family" or "my family and I"?

There is no doubt that the statement that seems more formal is My parents will reside with my family and I. And if you want to sound more formal, you can use that sentence. Just note that it is possible to argue that it is technically not grammatical, as CopperKettle has done. But this ...

An answer opposing my answer and I. (0:

Or just adding to them. (0:

You have not demonstrated that it is ungrammatical. — GoDucks 19 secs ago

I know that "my family and I" will be marked off as an error in a test, and that's what matters.

Damkerng T.

16:38

I think that agrees with your mentioning of "hypercorrection", more or less.

CopperKettle

He takes Huddleston and Pullum's point. I also agree with them.

Damkerng T.

Maybe something like My parents will reside with me, along with my family would sound more formal to most everyone.

CopperKettle

nods

You can learn a lot from Lydia and her questions.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

17:16

@Magsi I wonder what you mean by "Khan and J.R. can solve my tiny problems".

There is a lot to learn from this chat for you, since I find Snailboat's answers to questions we ask in this chat pretty useful.

And J.R. is a native speaker, from the US.

Damkerng T.

17:47

1

Q: Tense disagreement in "I guess he would + perfect infinitive" sentences

In 1966 all of the US currency was withdrawn from Vietnam and our government printed Military Payment Certificates. How did he know and how did Bulldog know? I guess he would have just figured that if I went then Ted would go also. I had always been amazed how some of these guys know...

modal-verbs tense-agreement

I'm pretty sure that if I told him that it's easy and he'd tried too hard to complicate it, especially to himself, he wouldn't believe me.

"I guess (now) he would have VERBed (then)" -- And that's pretty much it.

StoneyB

18:03

@DamkerngT. KinzleB's a pretty bright guy; I think he'd probably agree, but he'd keep on plugging anyway! (See his "testing to destruction" comment.)

Damkerng T.

LOL

@StoneyB He's bright enough that he wouldn't believe anyone easily.

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. Ayup. Anyway, he pushes us to the limits, as Listenever used to.

Damkerng T.

> The first two excerpts were written in the past tense. Why did the writers use the present tense form of "guess"? Because the reference time changed to the speech time as the writers was writing it? Seems to me it was not very likely.

Hmm... I think he misunderstood it.

Or maybe he unintentionally wrote it inaccurately to his own thoughts.

Damkerng T.

18:24

This website is a curious site . . . : ostik.pp.ua

Is SE ua-based?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Scraper?

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Not sure, but it looks identical!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. "contact us". Use it.

Damkerng T.

But are you sure that it's not a real SE?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

18:39

You can find it out using "contact us", but I'm 90% sure they have nothing to do with SE.

Just say that you found such site and think it might be a scraper.

If it's not, they'll get back to you.

Damkerng T.

> We'd love to hear from you! Please send all your general questions and inquiries to [email protected], or post away on meta.stackexchange.com.
http://stackexchange.com/about/contact

> We'd love to hear from you! Please send all your general questions and inquiries to [email protected], or post away on ostik.pp.ua/s__meta.
http://ostik.pp.ua/about/contact

Interesting!

So I tossed my curiosity out at the Tavern. :D

Magsi

18:54

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. and @DamkerngT. I am sorry for everything.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Magsi What? Did you do anything?

We have a cheer tag. Facepalm

Magsi

I asked a useless question today, and feeling sorry.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Magsi You did?

Hmm, it seems someone removed the stupid tag.

Damkerng T.

@Magsi Don't worry! Have you read my feedback in the other room?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Eh, do we have a python tag?

Magsi

18:58

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Life is "like" riding a bicycle.

Dear Sir:

Please identify to the word "like" in above sentence.

I think, it is a preposition in this sentence.
Is it so?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Magsi Please ask questions in the other room.

And I don't think it's a prep there.

Magsi

On which room?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Magsi ELL's Cabin, which you have done and I've replied.

Hullo @WeiYang! Welcome to LO!

Magsi

Okay, wait.
I am just coming.

Transcript for