Android Town Hall Chat

The format is open, feel free to ask your question(s) unprompted, however please be mindful of whether or not candidates have answered the previous questions so that they don't get behind and start missing questions. Other than that, feel free to jump in.

Candidates, please use the reply feature so that questions and their answers are linked together. (Hover your mouse over the left of the message, click the down arrow, click reply)

When a question is asked, I'll star it - please star it yourself also to help! Please save stars for the questions so that candidates can refer to the star list to make sure they haven't missed a question.

We will be creating a digest version of the town hall chat after it is completed. This digest will take the form of a question on meta, containing all the questions asked as well as their answers for easier reading.

(speed-reading yet?)

There's a system message up on the site, so hopefully we'll get some stragglers joining us.

The candidates I see here are: @AlEverett, @eldarerathis, and @MatthewRead. Flow can't make it, but will respond later, and will be added to the posted digest.

With that, I think I've got all my initial messages, so I open the floor. Anyone have something to start us off with?

ok then, I'll go. (:

Shog9

What would you do if someone starts yelling angrily about how such and such a question breaks their NDA?

Rebecca Chernoff

How would you handle an off-topic question that gets lots of upvotes/answers that the community likes/supports?

Al Everett

@Shog9 Well, first I'd get them to calm down. Then explain that the site offers user-contributed content and we can't control other people. If they persist, I'd refer them to the Stack Exchange team and by extension their attorneys. Certainly I'd shoot an e-mail off to the Community Managers to give them a heads-up.

eldarerathis

1:10 AM

@Shog9 An NDA seems like a type of situation that should probably be handled similar to a DMCA/Copyright situation. I'd want to try to reasonably explain to the individual that the we can't know the origin of all content that comes into the SE sites, but that they'd need to make some kind of case to the SE team. I'd also probably bring it up wherever appropriate (chat, email, etc) to make sure that the team is aware of claim.

Al Everett

@RebeccaChernoff I think the current way Stack Overflow handles this is probably the best. Close and lock it, and attach a note that it's kept for posterity but is not a good example of a question for the current topic guidelines.

Matthew Read

@Shog9 Remain calm. I believe SE's usual procedure when someone wants content removed is to ask them (or let them) file a formal DCMA takedown request. I know there's something on MSO about it so I would point them to that, and to the team if needed. Otherwise I would handle them like anyone else being disruptive: Point them to the site's policies, warn them about the results of their behavior, and proceed to suspension iff needed.

eldarerathis

@RebeccaChernoff Close it as off-topic, leave a comment explaining the reasoning for the close. I don't think that off-topic content should exist solely because of perceived usefulness since it sets a poor precedent and gives people questions to point at later down the line if they disagree with the closure of their own.

Al Everett

I have a question (if that's okay). What do you think is the biggest obstacle to the success of the Android Enthusiasts Stack Exchange?

Rebecca Chernoff

totally ok (:

answer it yourself too!

Hi @NathanGreenstein

Matthew Read

1:14 AM

@RebeccaChernoff I'd go to Meta if it's near our scope. Perhaps the scope needs to be expanded if the community is behind it, and we should discuss that. Another option is to talk to the OP and see if they're open to a rewrite that would push it on-topic.

@RebeccaChernoff If it's fully off-topic then I'd close as OT with a comment explaining my reasoning. I'm not particularly a fan of locks and I don't think they're needed on Android -- at least not till we get more high-rep users who can enter a voting open/closed battle :P

Al Everett

@AlEverett To me, it's the preponderance of "fly-by-night" users. It seems like we have an awful lot of people who show up, drop a question or three (usually badly asked, too) and then disappear, never to be seen again, often without responding to comments or even waiting for their answer. I'm continually frustrated by trying to engage new folks for nought. I don't know that I have a solution, except to keep trying and to spend more effort on the ones who do stay.

eldarerathis

@AlEverett I mentioned this briefly on Meta, but I think that one of the biggest difficulties is that the Q&A format it somewhat ill-suited to a lot of the real power-user discourse. IRC and forums tend to work better because they allow for discussion of, for example, ROMs that are in active development and troubleshooting.

Matthew Read

@AlEverett I think the biggest thing is keeping users here. We've talked before on Meta how we don't have a "middle class" to help the mods and keep the site running smoothly. So far the site is running smoothly but, with the gaining popularity of Android and this site hopefully with it, we will need these users. Many of our middling-rep users have left without explanation after a couple good months and it's somewhat concerning.

Rebecca Chernoff

What can be done to bring more people to the community? Do you feel that's part of your responsibility as a moderator?

eldarerathis

@RebeccaChernoff I do think moderators have some responsibility to help attract people, and I'd like to try promoting the site a bit more on other sites. We link to XDA a whole lot, but I rarely see links back here from XDA, for example. We fill a nice niche since we're a very focused Q&A site without all the other discussion going on, so I think people from general help forums would find it attractive.

Matthew Read

1:21 AM

@RebeccaChernoff The contests and promotions we've been having are a good start. I don't think moderators are responsible for promotion, but it's certainly an area I want to help with. And true mod responsibilities directly influence how the site is perceived -- it's important to be polite and consistent and all that good stuff to limit how many people are turned off by how SE works. I think our input is also really valuable when it comes to promotion - we know the site better than almost anyone else.

Al Everett

@RebeccaChernoff I think a moderator should try to bring people in, but also help and encourage others to increase the size and quality of the community. As an Android fan, this isn't the only venue I participate in, and it's not that much effort to point people toward the site, especially when there's an interesting/topical question.

Rebecca Chernoff

What is the difference between 'policing the community' and 'serving the community' and which side do you fall on, and why?

Matthew Read

@RebeccaChernoff Android is by-and-large a fantastic site low on the problems faced by many other SE sites. I don't see any policing aspects to the moderation job here and, regardless, it has to be about serving the community. If you're not serving the community then you're not doing your job as a mod.

@RebeccaChernoff If a community were to be so far gone that you need to really police it, cracking down on questions the community wants and so on, then probably the site isn't viable and I would have expected the team to step in and shut it down before that point.

Al Everett

@RebeccaChernoff "Policing" is looking around for bad actors and problems and doing something about it. "Serving" is, to me, is finding what the community needs and working to provide it. I think a moderator needs to do both, but as little as the former as possible to keep things civil.

eldarerathis

@RebeccaChernoff I'd say it's a bit of a fine line between the two. "Policing" to me implies being a bit more active in exercising moderation powers, whereas "serving" is a bit more passive, like responding to community flags and such. I would also say, though, that carrying out community consensus without always needing their explicit request (i.e. rules which were decided upon on meta) is serving - not policing. That's where I would generally fall.

Rebecca Chernoff

1:29 AM

What do you hope to accomplish as a moderator as opposed to a user with high rep privs?

if anyone else has questions, just jump in!

Matthew Read

@RebeccaChernoff I think I may have interpreted "policing" too harshly, based on Al and eldarerathis's answers :P I agree with dealing with problems and not being passive!

@RebeccaChernoff The main difference for me would be doing things vs creating work for the mods. As a regular user I'd flag things; as a mod I'd just delete/close/etc. As a regular user I'd post minor tag problems needing merging etc. to Meta; as a mod I just do what needs to be done. In both roles you always take the major things to Meta regardless of your ability to deal with it.

Al Everett

@RebeccaChernoff I want to help a good core of high-reputation users basically self-manage the site. If everything is going well, then a moderator's job truly is to be an exception-handler, taking care of those few things that come up that a non-moderator just can't do. We have some really good users now, but we need some more.

eldarerathis

@RebeccaChernoff Honestly, I just kind of want to cut out the middle man. I find myself running into clearly off-topic questions or non-answers, constantly refreshing the review queue and such but...all I can do is flag (or edit)! I spend a lot of time "moderating" as it is, so I figured - why not volunteer to actually moderate? If I can use that time to be helpful in other ways, too, then all the better. I just legitimately enjoy maintaining the site and helping the community.

Rebecca Chernoff

What makes you enjoy moderating and janitorial tasks (as opposed to rep-earning activities like asking/answering)?

eldarerathis

@RebeccaChernoff If I'm being truly honest, I have no idea :) I think I enjoy seeing things run smoothly and look nice. Plus, poor quality posts reflect poorly on the community, whether consciously and subconsciously. I'm a member of that community, so I want to make sure that I (and everyone else who's put so much hard work into this site) am well represented. We're contributing to the knowledge base of the Internet. No reason to do it halfway.

Al Everett

1:41 AM

@RebeccaChernoff Too many out-of-control forums? I have seen "broken windows" bring down other sites in the past. I like this site too much to stand idly by and fall into chaos, especially when I can help keep that from happening.

Matthew Read

@RebeccaChernoff I'm an engineer and a little pedantic :P I like things to work smoothly and be in order and correct. I like to act and not just converse. I like helping the site and community in multiple areas.

Rebecca Chernoff

You have several flags indicating 'very low quality' on a single post; you can't find any obvious issues with the post. What do you do?

Matthew Read

@RebeccaChernoff Get a second opinion, probably via the mod chatroom. Multiple flags either means sock puppetry or something you just don't quite get. Another set of eyes can help you catch the problem, rule it out, or investigate the abuse.

Al Everett

@RebeccaChernoff Depending on the situation, I'd leave a comment asking for more information; pop into Teacher's Lounge to ask for some other eyes to look it over; if it keeps happening check in to the users that are flagging it for potential sock-puppetry. But removing otherwise good content for no good reason doesn't seem right.

eldarerathis

@RebeccaChernoff I'd probably try to grab the other mods in chat and ask them to take a look. It's entirely possible that there's something I'm just missing, but it could be malicious flagging of some sort, too. If there's nobody readily available to take a look and the content truly doesn't appear "low quality" then I'd dismiss the flags and talk it out with other mods the next time they're available.

Rebecca Chernoff

1:49 AM

Through a moderator tool, you found some people near you. Would you reach out to them?

Al Everett

@RebeccaChernoff Heck no. That's a breach of trust.

Matthew Read

@RebeccaChernoff Absolutely not. If the information wasn't provided in the public profile or provided directly by the person to me, then it's private. It should only be used if necessary in the course of moderation duties and never exposed beyond the user, other mods, and the team within the appropriate contexts.

eldarerathis

@RebeccaChernoff No, I wouldn't feel at all right about doing that. I'd only ever consider contacting someone if it was through some kind of information they had chosen to make public.

Rebecca Chernoff

good q:

Bryan Denny

???? I didn't receive a notification about this?

Tim Stone

1:52 AM

New users often are not accustomed to the Stack Exchange system, and sometimes struggle to present themselves properly, either in the way they use the site or their attitude. How willing are you to work with "problematic" users, and at what point do you decide that someone isn't worth the effort?

Rebecca Chernoff

10 minutes left...y'all have any questions for each other? @eldarerathis, any questions for the other pro-tems?

Matthew Read

57 mins ago, by Matthew Read

@RebeccaChernoff There is obviously a broken intertube here, that's the second time we've missed your emails

Rebecca Chernoff

@BryanDenny yeah, we discovered that at the beginning. I don't know why y'all have been such email fail these elections. ):

Bryan Denny

Oh. I was wondering, I just received the @ reply from the inbox email thing

Rebecca Chernoff

Yeah, I sent ya a super-ping in hopes you were around. Any responses you add now will absolutely make it into the digest posted on meta. Sorry. ):

(and you can go back and answer the questions already asked of course)

Matthew Read

1:54 AM

@TimStone I don't think it's ever appropriate for a mod to give up. There are times when you might suspend someone after egregious behavior and a failure to improve, but you still give them another shot when the suspension is over. AFAIK it's up to the team to make a permanent suspension, and not the mods, and that's probably a good thing.

Al Everett

@TimStone Very willing, and I've been. Most folks are just unaccustomed to the way Stack Overflow works and only need a little gentle prodding. If they stick around they get it. If they don't, they generally get frustrated and leave. Fortunately, my fellow mods can help with persistent troublemakers. Every situation is different, so I can't really say when it's no longer worth the effort.

Matthew Read

@TimStone As for working with problematic users -- it's important to be up front about the site policies and what's expected, and to be polite. Telling someone they're behaving badly isn't going to work if you're behaving badly yourself. I always try to point people to the relevant FAQ, Meta post, or blog post that explains the policies and their rationale. Beyond that there's not much to do besides a suspension -- hopefully a short one gives them the jolt they need.

eldarerathis

@TimStone In the past I've hung around pretty poor questions on SO so that I could try to coax a real question out of someone, then tried to edit stuff an explain the site as best I can. I try to do the same here, and I'm willing to give pretty much anyone a decent shot. If a user is actively resisting any reasonable offers of help or is blatantly offensive, though, then everyone might need to walk away, cool down and try again later (including official suspension, if necessary).

Bryan Denny

@Shog9 I would approach the situation in a calm manner and explain that if it is a copright issue then a DMCA request should be issued. Otherwise, I would explain the site guidelines and rules and close the question

Rebecca Chernoff

We're just about out of time...

Final thoughts from the candidates?

(or beginning thoughts from @BryanDenny q:)

Bryan Denny

1:58 AM

@RebeccaChernoff I see this on Stackoverflow a lot. Although these questions are popular, they are very distracting to the main purpose of the site. The question should be closed with an explanation of why

Matthew Read

Vote for Pedro.

eldarerathis

@TimStone Having said that: I do think some people legitimately have bad attitudes and don't want to play nice. If it becomes clear that a user falls into that category then I'd have no qualms with suspending them, outlining very clearly why they're behaving unacceptably, and letting them try again at a later point.

Al Everett

@RebeccaChernoff No matter how the election goes, I'm glad I was given the opportunity to help out. This is a good batch of candidates and the site will be in good hands, whether I'm one of them or not.

Bryan Denny

@AlEverett Capturing a good audience (that sticks around). Especially the highly technical crowd. You see a lot of those types of questions being sent to XDA or reddit.com/r/android instead of here.

Matthew Read

@AlEverett Couldn't agree more.

Err, I agree with the sentiment that the site will be in good hands, not that it could do without you :P

Rebecca Chernoff

2:01 AM

aha, so now we get to the good stuff! (;

eldarerathis

I think I'll just take this time to say thanks to all the current mods and staff and whatnot who got this site here. I'm glad I found AE because I've learned a lot and I have a lot of fun here, and you guys did a great job getting it all together!

Rebecca Chernoff

Thanks for taking the time to participate!

A digest will be posted sometime tomorrow after Bryan and Flow have been able to add their responses.

Best of luck to all the candidates! (:

Bryan Denny

@RebeccaChernoff Anytime I can, I try to mention android.stackexchange to other android users. Here's one particular example: reddit.com/r/Android/comments/mxlfm/… As a moderator, I don't think it is our job the necessarily be the marketer for the site, but every little bit that we can chip in helps. We should continue with the contests (and adjust some of the rules to help the one-off users like the Kindle contest brought)

Al Everett

Thanks Rebecca et al.

Rebecca Chernoff

And I'm sorry for all the fails regarding emails. ):

Tim Stone

2:04 AM

When in doubt, blame a sysadmin. But don't tell them I said that.

Al Everett

@RebeccaChernoff I just searched through my Gmail (including spam folder) and the last message from you is from December 2, when you asked us to use the poll to find a mutually agreeable time. I suspect the issue is on your end (somewhere).

Bryan Denny

@RebeccaChernoff Policing is a bit too strong. Policing happens when I only want to see things I want to see on the site rather than what the community wants to see. I should be here to facilitate (serve) the community, not my own whims

Rebecca Chernoff

@AlEverett yeah, I can't take the blame for the first email that the system was supposed to send out. But the reply about the schedule for this was all my fault.

Bryan Denny

@RebeccaChernoff If I wasn't a mod, then I wouldn't be fixing the things myself. I'd just be flagging them for the current mods to do those things. Skip an extra step :) But the only difference between the two is the mod has slightly stronger powers which should hopefully not have to be used

@RebeccaChernoff reputation is nice, but at the end of the day it is number. As a moderator you actually get to keep things in order. I enjoy it because I want to see this style of community thrive over hard to read forums

@RebeccaChernoff If it's salvageable, edit it to make it a more worth question. If it isn't ask the user to clarify and provide more info. If they don't, consult other mods and possibly close it. Really depends on the post.

@RebeccaChernoff No, I would say that is "creepy." If they didn't publicly share the info, then I have no reason to try and contact them (other than the rare/exceptional sending a private message procedure)

@TimStone I'm very willing to help prod new users in the right direction. But if after a few times they just don't "get it" then I'd consult the others on what to do (suspension or otherwise)

@RebeccaChernoff whether elected a mod or not, I'll still be here. I enjoy the community and have enjoyed working with the current group of mods. I hope for nothing but the best for Android.SE :)

And I think I'm caught up now :)

Rebecca Chernoff

nicely done

my apologies again for the final time not getting emailed out. ):

Bryan Denny

2:16 AM

no problem, thanks for pinging me so I'd notice :)

Matthew Read

alrighty, thanks and good night people! best of luck to all mod candidates

Flow

9:43 AM

**What would you do if someone starts yelling angrily about how such and such a question breaks their NDA?**

If there *really* had been a violation of the NDA, it was done by the user who asked/answered the question. I would ask the person, which complains about the NDA violation, to contact the user directly, if needed by asking SE officials for support contacting the user. Content can easily be deleted by the users - but should maybe be completely wiped by the SE admins in such cases.

**How would you handle an off-topic question that gets lots of upvotes/answers that the community likes…

* formatting fail* :)

But why? *italic* **bold** `testing()`
@RebeccaChernoff Here you go. Please s/again/against.

Transcript for

Android Town Hall Chat