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12:01 AM
@anongoodnurse but not at homeopathic doses surely (10 divided 10 times is below atomic size).
@Cerberus jinx
The idea of homeopathy is pseudoscientific, it looks like science and there are analogous scientific processes, but it is not borne out by data (or by thinking!)
OK...it was a long way across the estate to get my slaves to type on the 'trampoline' keyboard (if you were rich like me you'd know about it).
@anongoodnurse Of course Cerb could give a more educated perspective (s/ more/n /), but I'll go the linguistics route... all languages are equally logical and equally a mess in their own way.
except for pidgins, which are a mess on their own.
Latin has, for its morphology alone, nouns having two numbers, three genders, 5 declensions, 5 (or 6) cases. verbs have 3 persons, two numbers, 3 moods, 3 tenses, 2 aspects, um ... uh... oh 4 ...what do they call them, not declensions but -are, -ere, -ire, -ere. And most importantly consistently morphological forms for all variations.
One could call that structure. I call it madness.
@Mitch Conjugations.
@Mitch Then you haven't seen Greek...
If you call that madness, look at Russian, it will burn your eyes out, more cases, many more declensions and verb conjugations.
@Cerberus nice. thanks.
And people (if you can call scholars that) say how wonderful this 'structure' is, because it allows you to vary your word order. That is because there is so much that needs to correspond (adjectives to nouns, nouns and verbs together, function in the sentence), that you can mix your words up in any order you want for poetic emphasis. Which is in my book exactly what unstructured means. All mixed up. So Latin is all mixed up. QED. Quod erat demonstrandum.
@Cerberus No I haven't seen Greek. Well I've seen Greek, I just don't know anything about it.
12:18 AM
@Mitch Well, you can mix it up, but that is not done so much outside poetry.
Greek has 3 voices where Latin has 2.
Greek has 4 verbal stems where Latin has 4.
I don't know how many declensions Greek has, but in practice there will be a lot more paradigms to memorise than for Latin.
Greek has 4+ dialects that are in use in Literature versus Latin's 1.5.
Good lord. I'm on the leaderboard at #5 for five hats?
The results is several spelling variants for many, many endings.
Then there is contraction, which is uncommon in Latin, but very common in Greek, at both ends of a word.
And contraction is not compulsory, so you will see contracted and uncontracted forms of the same prefix, suffix, or ending.
@Cerberus Everything not forbidden is compulsory.
Says who?
@Cerberus The ants.
12:22 AM
You can spell poiei or poieei ("he does").
You can spell poiei or poiesai ("you do yourself / you do for yourself / you are done").
In both cases, the contraction is spelled poiei, but it could be the contraction of two different endings.
Greek has many prepositions that mean different things depending on which of 3 cases they govern.
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/consecutive_vowels.png (not worksafe)
In Latin, this is less common, and it's never more than 2 different cases.
Greek has one case fewer than Latin, I'll give you that.
@MετάEd Bleh, why wouldn't you just post that here?
I see no boobies.
I am doing my part to make the room welcoming for first timers.
In this case, by not forcing vulgarity on them (even vulgarity that I like).
@Cerberus Russian has 7 (or 8) cases, uncountable conjugation classes, and most everything is an exception anyway. So Russian wins (or loses, depending)
@MετάEd Well, I appreciate the intention, but that seems a bit exaggerated.
12:29 AM
@Cerberus like English, but without the endings it's even worse
@Cerberus I will not be drawn into a controversy over it.
how about a well-reasoned discussion?
@Mitch Hah! They may win in their number of cases. But do really think Russian morphology has more variation than Greek?
@MετάEd Umm what controversy? Take it easy, it is none of my business what you post and don't post.
@Mitch If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
@Cerberus Now you want to create controversy over controversy? :D
@Cerberus I don't know Russian so I'm just repeating what I've read (re # of forms, and lots of irregulars, much more than other languages)
12:31 AM
@Mitch Never mind, if Ed sees this as controversial, then I want no part of it.
@MετάEd Stop it! Controvert yourself.
@MετάEd That's abuse
@Cerberus I prefer "intercourse the penguin" but to each his own.
@Mitch Right, we'd have to ask someone who knows both languages well enough.
Mumble mumble riddle and rumble.
@Mitch I'm glad I'm not the only die hard Python fan in the room.
12:32 AM
@MετάEd closes eyes, backs out of room
@MετάEd \s
@tchrist stoopid burn and maudlin tumblr.
My work here is done.
@MετάEd I prefer R. It just has a longer history and well supported libraries. Python may well replace it (because frankly Python was made by someone who has a clue and R made by glomming on features by non computer scientists)
@Cerberus well, one can, without having instruction in the languages, check their and grammatical inventories.
Can one?
parse error: core dumped
12:37 AM
I'm not sure how you would go about charting the entire Greek morphology.
@MετάEd I'm pretty sure I'm one of the least fanatic, in the logical sense.
@Cerberus One can.
@Cerberus Oh. That bad, eh?
> Some scissors are designed for left-handed use, although most of them sold in stores are not specialized.
Do you agree this sounds odd?
@Cerberus expecting parallelism.
'specialized' sounds like it took a weird turn.
@Mitch For example, how do you find out how many irregular verb stems and endings there are?
12:39 AM
@Mitch I'm not sure what is what I would point at.
well, how would a native speaker do it better than a ...
What if you replace them with those?
> Some scissors are designed for left-handed use, although most of those sold in stores are not specialized.
That does sound better
I would say them is wrong.
well, re greek and russian, you'd need grammars for both with enough detail (that go over all the irregularities) in a single foreign language (like English). That way you wouldn't need to know both equally well, you'd just need two people who know a third language as well as their own (to communicate in the third language.
Of course that language is English.
12:43 AM
Kind of, yeah.
Although the best grammars of Greek will be in German and possibly French.
@MετάEd Appreciated.
@Cerberus oh.
@Mitch Are there really that many sounds for i and y? I can think for four for y and maybe three for i.
Also, I forgot that I needed a better title for this question.
Let me change it now.
I just got my fifth hat! :-)
12:59 AM
Challenging @MετάEd for position.
Oh, I have five total, but I only have four of them on ELU. I can get the fifth here though :-)
@Mitch I think the title ought to be something more like "Is there a reason the letter 'y' is wye in English, but 'Greek i' in other languages?" or "What is the overlap between 'y' and 'i' for phoenetic representation?" or something. I never could nail that down.
For ‹y›, the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary lists /j/ (as in yet), /ɪ/ (as in crystal), /aɪ/ (as in type), and a weak /i/ (as in happy). The first is specific to ‹y›, and the other three are shared with ‹i›. But ‹y› can also be part of the digraphs ‹ay›, ‹ey›, ‹oy›, or ‹uy›.
Where is the question?
Oh, I found it!
1:06 AM
@snailboat it's here
Thank you :-)
But the title really needs to be something else.
Thank you.
I'm having and have had difficulty articulating what I am trying to ask.
But I haven't done a bounty in ages, and I thought this would be a good one. I'm trying to accept answers on all of my questions.
Here is a pertinent comment:
What about Greek-derived words? I'm trying to figure out why this is a Greek i in other languages, but not English. — Kit Z. Fox ♦ 15 mins ago
I guess that's what sim's answer is missing that I'm trying to understand. Do other languages use some other letter for yod or something?
And what does this mean? "in Greek words, representing υ, as in hymn"? I can't read that letter.
Oh. When I paste it here, I see that it is upsilon.
@Cerberus Yes, it sounds odd, but "of those" would refer more strongly to the left-handed scissors than the initial "some scissors".
2:01 AM
@kit Are you sleeping yet?
2:18 AM
@JasperLoy Yes.
3:18 AM
@KitZ.Fox Like 'synchronous'? (where the y is like the short i)
3 hours later…
6:20 AM
Can anyone provide a citation towards the best number of words to have in a sentence?
I've seen 14 thrown around but never with a citation.
One place commenting on the fact that the citation can't be found onlinegrammar.com.au/how-many-words-are-too-many-in-a-sentence
Apparently: “Readers’ Degree of Understanding,” American Press Institute.
But I can't seem to locate that
6:39 AM
Guys, is it permissible to omit 'the' in poetry?
Depends on the poetry form? E.g. it is expected in (westernised) haiku.
As in here:

Anointed by dandelion
Enchanted by the scarlet sun
The twilight zephyr
It is pleasing to read, thus it is permissible? Poetry is meant to be art. Is it permissible to not paint the sky? Sure.
Haha, oh well.
Should I add 'the' before 'dandelion'? Or remove 'the' before 'scarlet sun'?
I don't think there is a real correct answer. But I am no poet.
6:48 AM
1 hour later…
7:56 AM
There's no such thing as "the best number of words to have in a sentence".
You can omit "the" in poetry, depends entirely on what you're after
the thes in that example are fine
"Anointed by dandelion" vs "Anointed by the dandelion", depends on your intent. I like the sound of the former, it sounds like being anointed by dandelions in general, or perhaps some dandelion extract, or a dandelion crown. Who knows? Ambiguity can be useful in poems.
"Anointed by the dandelion" suggests a single dandelion plant or stem being wafted over someone's head
there's no right answer
3 hours later…
10:32 AM
@Mitch looks like I'm not needed then ... :-/
but seriously, ignoring that tripe, Martha's answer is good
Also, as under the weather as I am, I'll put off writing something for a bit, so that it's coherent
Hello @MattE.Эллен, I won't put on any hats.
10:51 AM
@JasperLoy i am eating my only hat
I'm on my eighth hat network-wide. I just got Speedy Delivery for that noren post! :-)
@snailboat Are you a programmer? Just wondering what you do.
I'm just a snailboat.
10:54 AM
I see, very secretive.
I am a lunatic, as you probably already know.
not a very profitable career
I have a snail named Luna! :-)
When I tell people I am a lunatic, they think I am joking. Little do they know I am deadly serious.
I just watched Hostel, such a stupid movie. Don't watch it!
10:56 AM
I haven't heard of that movie.
It's about people who pay money to torture others. People get kidnapped and then killed slowly.
I wouldn't want to watch that sort of thing.
There is also Hostel 2 and Hostel 3.
Oh, I watched The Beach, the one with Leo Di Caprio, pretty good.
11:09 AM
I am going to eat dinner, bye.
3 hours later…
2:04 PM
@MattE.Эллен I read the whole thing and then got to the author and I thought it was a funny way to respell your name.
@MattE.Эллен depends on the job market
2:27 PM
> I can't get a word in edgewise ... things go by so fast
OK, we have a theory about the Onion Knight secret hat. We think it is awarded when a question has no votes or activity before it has 99 views.
Oh. I hope you don't mind hat discussion?
not I. what's the onion link?
It's a secret hat. Onion Knight is a class that is weak at the start then gains strength and becomes superpowerful at level 90-99.
"so that" means "for this purpose" ?
So there's that one theory. Another is that it receives more votes after a certain number of views than it does before.
@Shafizadeh Maybe. What's the whole sentence?
2:32 PM
@KitZ.Fox Isn't the onion knight a character from game of thrones?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Seems to be a red herring. It's a class in Final Fantasy as well.
@KitZ.Fox "Values are handled internally so that they're essentially always passed by reference of some kind or another. "
Hm. In GoT he was a smuggler who smuggled onions in to the besieged lord, then the lord cut off his fingertips on one hand and raised him up to knighthood.
@Shafizadeh Yes, that makes sense.
ok tnx
2:35 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I can't think how that would relate to the questions that have it.
downvotes then upvotes?
some kind of redemption?
No, looked at that. Two of them had no downvotes.
Looked at privileges earned as well, it wasn't that.
Although -- I don't think anyone looked at earned privileges for the answerers of the post...
@Hugo also reading the context takes forever. by the time I have something relevant to say, people have moved on to iPohnes vs Andorid
@KitZ.Fox That's perverse.
lookin' for +5 on these for a liftin' hat!
@KitZ.Fox Onion night? Red herring? Le nez! This is a secret underground sleeper-cell for the gastronomical invasion by Baltic cuisine?
Also, Game of Thrones? Nobody watches that show.
@Hugo +1 by one person. Wait...are we supposed to read them first?
2:41 PM
@Hugo Serial voting reversal script!
@KitZ.Fox 4 of them won't trigger... will it?
of course, only +1 if you think it's a good answer :)
I wonder if I can delete an old answer of my own and repost it, for the DIY hat
goes back...unupvotes...reads...contraunupvotes
ah, no, it detects a duplicate answer
thanks for the contraunupvotes!
3:17 PM
my attempt for the DIY hat! english.stackexchange.com/a/294106/9001 ("answer own question, both +3")
Is this sentence correct? "Why SO doesn't give me the deserving badge?"
I'd write: "Why doesn't SO give me the badge I deserve?"
the badge doesn't deserve anything, you do
Unless you're really that good'
@Hugo tnx
Then of course the badge deserves you
3:23 PM
In Soviet Russia... you something something badge somethety something wakes you up in the middle of the might something never seen again.
What is this guy about?

I have a doubt, what should i use:

"Amount Loaned" or "Amount Borrowed", for a financial transaction?
If you are the person giving the money, the former
If you have the money, the latter.
I lend to you
You borrow from me
^ Exactly that
3:47 PM
My pleasure.
@ErickAstoOblitas I have a question for you. You used the word "doubt" there where I'd use the word "question": "I have a question, what should I use?"
Have you ever heard anyone use the word "doubt" as a verb in the same way? Or is it always only a noun?
Doubt is a verb.
@DeltaEscher I'm referring to the "doubt = question" sense
A doubt can also be a question
You are looking to not doubt, am I not correct?
3:54 PM
Only in Indian English
A doubt requires affirmation
Or it keeps being a doubt
And doubt is not a fun guy.
In Indian English you can say "I have two doubts about SQL. 1. Can I write queries in lower case? 2. does null = null?"
In most other varieties of English you can't say that.
thought police
So I was hoping, as someone who used the word "doubt" to mean "question", maybe @ErickAstoOblitas could expound on what other senses the word has in his dialect.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I use "doubt" trying to express the lack of right knowledge.
Maybe I'm translating the semantic directly from spanish.
4:08 PM
@ErickAstoOblitas ah, so you're not using Indian English then... hm, okay, thanks
4:31 PM
He must be using Gibberish
That's my favorite language
@DeltaEscher No, he's just describing how it's used in the two different varities. Indian English 'a doubt' can be used as 'a question', in AmE/BrE it's not used that way.
e.g. in BrE Having a doubt about cats, would imply you're casting aspersions on the character of cats, but in InE you are about to ask a question about cats.
@MattE.Эллен How dare you.
I bet you have no opinion whatever of cats.
4:47 PM
@Mitch I bet he doesn't even know what a cat is
I doubt that
@Mitch *question that ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
@DeltaEscher I have a meta question about cats
I captured a spy and doubted him for hours /Indian accent
That's ^^ what I'd like to know about
and doubts.
4:53 PM
I captured a spy and asked him many doubts.
So if anyone who speaks InE is around, please opine! Or should I just ask this on main?
I wasn't sure if it was worthy
I would put my money on an answer somewhere along the lines of "you don't ask doubts, you have doubts"
I think a usage question about "doubt" in InE would be interesting and topical.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 it seems like a good question to me. It can't be general ref and it's about English
I started to compose it yesterday but had a doubt.
We need to view it a bunch of times before voting on it and see if he gets the onion hat.
4:55 PM
about cats?
I dunno. Came to the party late.
I think I need to change my hat.
are we writing today?
@KitZ.Fox now that you can resize the hats, sure, they look good on the avatar, but it's hard to see them.
You have a question about cats within cats?
You're talking to the right guy ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh. Probably could.
5:06 PM
Q: I have a doubt about having a doubt

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇I learned from this question that in Indian English the word doubt is used to mean question, that is, as a countable noun. If my understanding is correct, the following is grammatical in InE: I have two doubts about SQL. 1. Can I type in lower-case? 2. Does null equal null? I’m curious abou...

For your consideration.
Note the terrible russian UI screen, all in ascii terminal node. But Russia's the ones with an active space program sending their own manned rackets. NASA is renting from them.
Quick question.
How do I add a key to a list in Python in a list that isn't multidimensional
For example, this is my list:
[1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
I want to make a function that makes it add a key to each item
Are you trying to make a dictionary?
Or do you need the index?
Trying to make something for my school store
Making a function
It should make it add make an item have two keys.
i.e [[1,1], 2, 3, 4, 5]
You need key:value pairs for that.
5:12 PM
do you mean keys? those don't look like keys
Oh, you want a multidimensional array?
I want the ability to make a regular array multidimensional in a function
I used to know how to note that in python. Or maybe I'm mixing it up with Matlab.
So the function will append to values and make another key to it.
a dictionary in python is like {'key': 'value'} iir the notation correctly
5:13 PM
You want an auto-incremented key?
I want to make it so the function will add a value to an item.
A dictionary will be more efficient if it's appropriate.
I can only use a text editor.
5:14 PM
^ I can't see those
The array is a set of strings like this: [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
The function asks how many of each item there is
I want it to append the value like:
[[1, 1], [2, 2], [3, 3], [4, 4], [5, 5]]
Tim Peake, first astronaut from UK to visit ISS about to dock.
Anyone know how to do that, or a simpler way to make that work?
can you address the fist item of the list
just set the first item of the list to the pair {1,1}
Then how can a function change the second number>
I just started Python and it confuzzles meh
@DeltaEscher so you if you have the array [1,1,2,3,4,4,4,5,6,7,7] you want to get the array [[1,2],[2,1],[3,1],[4,3],[5,1],[6,1],[7,2]]?
5:19 PM
And I'm getting raw input from the user as the value
I'm using a for loo
Get input
append to array
def log:
def log(array):
`for item in array:`
`amount = raw_input("How many of" + item " are there?"
It's just a mess so far
Kudos @Mitch. I needed that meta post.
"Everything is going nominally"
Nominal to profile.
The announcer ('ground control'? in Kazakhstan or Korolev) is speaking English (with a RUssian accent) but the astronauts and Moscow are speaking Russian (with a Russian accent too)
Why are they using manual docking?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 or maybe "ask about a doubt"?
5:32 PM
print "enter some numbers separated by space"
inp = raw_input()

numbers = inp.split(' ')

counts = {}

for number in numbers:
    if number in counts:
        counts[number] += 1
        counts[number] = 1

print counts
that's what I'd do
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. de nada. Really. It was a plant.
The docking was underwhelming mostly because the video was not available for the last moments. Aren't there like satellitey things up there for better coverage? You're up in effing space! Why can't you get good wifi?
ragequits space
@MattE.Эллен I need to get raw_input for each item there is in the list
I'll just go ask the nice people at the StackOverflow chatroom
They (probably) won't mock my inexpertise
5:57 PM
Should Tim Peake be allowed back to Britain after joining ISS
@MattE.Эллен Nice.
6:11 PM
@MattE.Эллен "Not if he's been exposed to free radicals" lmao
6:35 PM
@MattE.Эллен 'Propose a new slogan also: "Such hospital, many doctor, very care. Wow!"'
:D paging Dr. Doge
6:51 PM
@DeltaEscher You can use map to make it multi-dimensional, if you want. I'm not sure if that's what you actually want to do, but . . .
>>> a = [1,2,3,4,5]
>>> map(None, a, [])
[(1, None), (2, None), (3, None), (4, None), (5, None)]
I just asked the Python chat
I finally know what a dictionary is
And just how bad my teacher was.
Oh, good! :-)
I was too sick to just look it up on the Python tutorials
I saw @Snail's smiley.
6:54 PM
For some reason, being sick makes you take the longer route
7:14 PM
or zip
7:48 PM
\o @Hugo! Your ELL question made me learn some new stuff! \o/
8:17 PM
hmm, FumbleFingers got the Odinson secret hat
Yes. It is sadly beyond my reach, but it is not beyond yours!
do we know how yet?
@Hugo Meta.SE is the biggest fun spoiler.
If you want, I can tell you how to earn it.
last time I checked meta they weren't sure
spoil me
or give hints
8:20 PM
Hey! No spoilers in chat!
Well. You can guess but no affirmations.
He asked for it.
Not everybody asked.
well I don't fully understand it yet :)
Users with gold tag badges can unilaterally close questions as duplicates.
@KitZ.Fox (/¯◡ ‿ ◡)/¯ ~ ┻━┻ Whatever.
8:29 PM
well there was nothing in the review queue for my golden dupehammer
well, there was just one, but I'd already answered it and expressed my opinion that's it not a dupe
You don't have to swing the hammer to earn the badge.
@Hugo WB lasts for another 19 days. :)
(Warner Bros)
(Waving Bombs)
(Worm Boom)
> Has ganado la medalla "Versión beta" (10 votos emitidos, 3 publicaciones añadidas con puntuación > 0, y sitio visitado en 3 días distintos durante la versión beta privada).
@Hugo You stocking-robber, you! You only come around once you smell the Christmas cookies anymore! :)
Those are just inverted stockings.
8:39 PM
I have been both taking and giving inverted stockings
My work sprint is sucking up 167% of my time and creative output right now. I want to be hatting.
167% is too much
an easy way to participate is, I don't know, perhaps give a click on these answers?
Can't vote on 4.
I miss your answers, Hugo.
8:44 PM
yeah, I've been gone for a while, it's fun to answer here!
Tell me a tale of the OED getting back to you.
erm, I pointed a wrongly targeted cross reference today, an editor has submitted it for fixing...
generally they don't reply about antedatings
not even really through their OED Appeals site
I still want them to include my work on nemetic; the gloss wasn’t even listed last I checked. :/
but it'd be great if they did, a note to say "it's now in the dictionary!"
something I do know is in, is the first-known selfie
8:52 PM
erm, don't think so
I wonder if the question has to have been posted since the Winterbash began, or if you can just dupe close any old etymology tagged question. Your gold is in etymology, I assume?
thinks devious thoughts
I sure hope no one else posts asking about bumfiddler, and then flags it...
but if they did, I'd be happy to do my bit and help clean up the site...
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