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10:00 PM
I'm not sure stalking's much of an offence if it's just "Stack Exchange chat room stalking"
@AshleyNunn Sounded like he just needed to be gently smacked upside the head and taught that the behavior was unacceptable.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No. This kid definitely crossed a line.
huh, did VLQ get taken off SO questions?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I have a bit of experience with an "e-stalker" unrelated to SE, they can be really disturbing
@GlenH7 Yeah, after a few "don't do this" smackings, he mostly stopped coming around, at least where I've been.
And I'm okay with that.
10:01 PM
@Ixrec the only time it's ever been heated in here has been a few political discussions; the fact that folks here feel comfortable even broaching the subject because we know the level of discourse here will stay above a certain level - or we'll simply change the subject - speaks to the expectations. Do remember - a part of P.SE's scope did (does still?) explicitly dictate the site is only for professionals which I think carries well into the culture.
@GlenH7 Gah, I remember that day too.
yep, as those involved in the Mos freezing loved to point out, other chat rooms like this one have no trouble at all with political subjects
That's it, I'm freezing the room. We've all been here WAY too long.
see, if you'd said that a few weeks ago, I'd have been afraid you actually planned on doing something
10:03 PM
@Ixrec it really does come back to the individuals
wonder if I could find record of the first time I joined..
Can room owners freeze a room?
@JimmyHoffa Search for messages said by you, sort by newest, go to the oldest page
@GlenH7 no, but they can set it to "gallery" mode where only designated users can talk, I think
@Ampt can't search without a search string
10:03 PM
Hey everybody announce what you're doing this fine Friday night
@Ixrec yes, that's right. I remember Yannis warning MichaelT, Jimmy, and I about that after he made us room owners. Basically threatened us with severe beatings if we did that.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Setting up a christmas tree
So he single handedly made the Triumvirate?
Didn't know that
10:05 PM
@GlenH7 that's my 'morrow; some friends coming over to help us out with it.
you guys were already Room Owners by the time I joined up
I'm a super room owner. It means my power is so great you can't even see that I'm a room owner.
Here, I'll prove it and do a room owner thing.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it'd be cool if mods had the power to go undercover
There! Did you see it? No, of course not: because it was hidden too! I'm so powerful ha ha ha
10:06 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit This is about where I or one of the other mods starts messing with your messages and purge the history. :-D
And I'm just kidding about that
Are you though
Yes, because I'm too busy trying to get an excel workbook talking nicely with my web server
I thought you were setting up a Christmas tree
the Lounge is right - the mods are full of lies!!
@LightnessRacesinOrbit and I may have gotten a little upset at him when he did that to me once or twice.
10:08 PM
@Ampt but you can't prove it because he messed with your messages and purged the history, right?
They should have made @LightnessRacesinOrbit a room owner of Lounge
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No, which is why I was not thrilled with it at all.
Jan 9 '12 at 17:10, by Andy
any asp.net mvc programmer here?
First sighting of Andy ever?
They wouldn't have had to bomb the place otherwise
@AaronHall I thought almost all of the regulars there were made room owners
@Ampt Andy the troll? Dunno. I think he started as Andy Harglesis but also used tons of throw-away accounts for trolling.
10:10 PM
LightnessRacesinOrbit probably disagreed too much with the room culture.
@AaronHall I was once, briefly
@AaronHall yes the majority of the hypocrites in charge were too busy accusing me of things that they were in fact the ones doing, to like me very much
although I did nearly win a vote once
truth be told I had very little interest in it. and a position never opened up except this one time that Shog came in and removed most of the owners after another "drama", putting me up (and a couple of others) as interim owners for the weekend
of course one of the more passive aggressive troublemakers (who had managed to retain ownership) restored the status quo not thirty minutes later, so that was that
I had intended to let things settle a little before doing anything rash. this bloke hates the mods so wanted everything back to the way it had been. and Shog was now asleep/getting drunk.
what do you think would happen if the Lounge was simply nuked from orbit, non-temporarily?
of course the fact that this guy is on the passive aggressive team means he was inappropriately thanked for this action by moderators afterwards :( :sniff:
@Ixrec They'd start another room.
There will just be another room
I thought the lounge had an extended freeze for a while anyway at some point
10:13 PM
Chatban all the regulars and look out for sockpuppets for a month or two (not that they'll be hard to spot).
If they finally move to IRC or something I'll hear about it.
Mission accomplished at that point.
They did move to IRC, didn't they?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit What gave me away?
I think this might be my first message in here from digging:
Nov 2 '12 at 23:31, by Jimmy Hoffa
I don't think there likely are any real good OOP design books which are focussed in PHP. Would it be a valid question to ask if any actually exist? I'm just curious, as when people get their head around good design principles they've generally moved past working in PHP it seems. Though perhaps that's just my bias against php...
that's a good way to start out
10:14 PM
Hmm, transcript does imply they have a new IRC room. It is also clear that they haven't "moved", though, since the transcript itself is still busy.
PHP stands for Personal Home Page... so I think that's a fine comment.
hah, okay so they started up #loungecpp because I was holding ##loungecpp rofl
Well I stand corrected - seems there's a sort of half-hearted split going on. I wouldn't expect things to change too much, though.
in Lounge<C++> on Stack Overflow Chat, Dec 6 at 11:13, by sbi
@Puppy Look, there have been many such problems, and they all have, indeed, blown over. But in a sense, they haven't. Every time this happens, this room's inhabitants get a bit more cynically frustrated about the meta police, about this Merkan bigotry, about this insensitive slapping of users who have not broken any rules, except those in the head of some bigots. So every such incident, no matter how stupid and temporarily, does push off the users here a bit more.
10:18 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit if the transcript stays busy I see no issue, so long as they stop being TL in there and start being a C++ place
@JimmyHoffa good luck with that
actually they're mostly into Haskell, which goes some way towards explaining the moronity
no offence
Okay next person to remove a chat message I am going to hellban.
Nov 19 '12 at 15:13, by MichaelT
re: writing a "career advice" do people want a single "this is what P.SE thinks?" or a multitude of "different perspectives on career development"?
SE has hellbans. Enjoy yours.
that's gotta be MichaelT's first
10:21 PM
Dec 31 '12 at 14:05, by GlenH7
@JayBazuzi - the 2nd part of your question is unanswerable by P.SE, sorry. That having been said, 4 - 5 years is a long time for something to exist and not receive a takedown request. Copyright / trademark / patent must all be enforced without discrimination. You can rely upon the precedent of that fork existing for so long as basis for using in your project. Worst case is that you'd be liable for a cease & desist at some point later in life but you wouldn't be liable for damages.
There's Glens I think
all within 2 months of eachother haha
Sounds about right
@LightnessRacesinOrbit eh? How ya mean? And yeah, I don't expect them to keep it clean (people like that just...can't...) but just saying, it's not the room, it's the people left to it.
We also started on the main site within a few months of each other as well
@JimmyHoffa I'm getting a notification that you've said something, but the hellban means I can't read it.
not much of a hellban if it still goes BONG
10:23 PM
@GlenH7 New year 2013? Children!
@Ixrec It's more of a gentle chime.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oddly enough, I had been listening to Jeff & Joel as they first discussed starting up SO. But I wasn't doing enough development work at the time to where I thought I could meaningfully contribute, so I didn't participate in the beta. And it was quite a while before I came back around.
@GlenH7 is so? I don't believe I ever noticed
@JimmyHoffa Yeah, we're all fairly close IIRC
the thing with the chat is before we popped in; it just didn't have consistency so people would drop in and out
that feel when you realize Chat.SE profiles have a "First joined date"
10:27 PM
> [Chat.SE] user since 2012-03-04
@Ampt I can make that (message) disappear if it helps. :-)
oh wow, total fail. [Chat.SE] expands to Server Fault.
> [Chat.SO] user since 2011-01-03
Jul 1 '13 at 18:55, by Ampt
Yeah, I usually leave a lot of comments, but I'm trying to give good answers to subjects I know a little bit about
there's mine
10:29 PM
whoa, you're right
wtf is that about
Apparently I had a chat account for like 2 weeks before I actually chatted
What is this black magic
Wasn't server fault the first SE site?
Q: In chat, "[Chat.SE]" expands to a Server Fault link

Lightness Races in OrbitAs the title says. Write "[Chat.SE] roflcopter" in the input box. Press enter. Chat message appears, rendered as "Server Fault roflcopter". Roflcopter.

@GlenH7 yes.
@Ampt looks like I had one for a year before.. so not particularly useful
10:30 PM
nice touch
Ok I'm done for the day
Have a good weekend progs
See ya
night Ampt
hope you're less ampt up tomorrow
(removed) is annoying.
You didn't miss anything
10:38 PM
You're just saying that. It was actually really important. You just don't want me to know. :P
Well, obviously. But the polite thing for me to do is to tell you that you didn't miss anything about [ chat.se ] expanding out and roflcopters.
@JarrodRoberson Lemme just tell you how I see SO. I see it as mostly a tech support site for beginners who don't know how to use a debugger. Boring -- the 10,000th segfault from someone who doesn't know what a debugger is. Questions about best practices whether they are about how to effectively use a language feature or a design pattern are at least interesting. They at least invite answers which require some time and thought invested into them. I'm mainly desperate for interesting material -- and a best practices question seems like an oasis in contrast to an MCVE Q from one who doesn't... — Ike yesterday
Oh my.
@GlenH7 :D
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Coming from someone who started their answer with:
> I must admit, I love best practices questions!
I was about to invite them over to Progs until I read that.
10:40 PM
I actually chastised a candidate once during an interview who kept using the term "best practices" as the end all be all
@GlenH7 that, "passion since a young age" and wanting to have sex with design patterns is an instant "no" when I'm hiring
Used it as an opportunity to ask about "what makes a best practice then?" Was not the level of conversation that they had expected
so what did you say to chastise them about it?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah, intimate familiarity with design patterns is a red flag
You may have chased away someone who really cares about good code, but that's a good followon question.
what did they allege makes a best practice?
10:43 PM
isn't "familiarity" with design patterns a good thing? they are actually somewhat useful when you don't idolize them
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Pointed out that you have to understand the why behind a supposed best practice to truly understand if it applies in that case or not. And that you can't blindly accept something simply because someone declared it to be "best"
@GlenH7 Why not? I heard that was the best practice for dealing with best practices.
@AaronHall Someone on the internet said so is what their justification boiled down to
@Ixrec :whoosh:
A lot of times in my answers about Python I recommend certain strategies for accomplishing an intent over other strategies, and I provide the reasoning for it. I sometimes use the phrase, "best practice."
10:45 PM
I'm okay with that because you can back the claim with a why based in experience
Actually, I don't even appeal to my experience, I try to prove it with code.
But just because you read some blog by some person on the interwebs somewhere who didn't provide any other justification is not sufficient to call something a best practice
@Ixrec the problem is people rarely strive for that thoughtful middle ground you just described. It's either "I'm just going to memorize and spout this stuff because it has been decided as best!" or "I don't really get it, hey friend, do you get it? No? Ok, then we agree it's nonsense except singleton, global state makes things easier."
And that's what the majority of the people who use the term mean by it?
@AaronHall Ask more often when you hear the term. You might be surprised at what you find out.
10:46 PM
goes back to as I mentioned the other day: Cognitive load of not following the crowd. Most people don't want to hassle with it, and many will look down upon you for doing so ("no no, you just don't understand design patterns if you don't think they are the best food since sliced cheesecake", "Best practices should be followed rigidly or else you're going to make mistakes! I knew somebody who didn't once, it was horrible!")
that makes sense, "best practices" is a term taught in business school, and business school undergrads don't have the best academic reputations.
@JimmyHoffa and you gotta catch use 'em all!
> You don't do what everyone else does ?? You must be stupid ! Everyone does it this way, I guess you don't understand how people are doing things...
I've heard that exact sentiment too many times...
Which is why I dislike blind adherence to "best practices."
that's social proof, not best practices
10:50 PM
@AaronHall See, you're wrong. 'cause everyone knows that that's the best practice, amirite?
I joke. But I've seen that a bit too much.
This is a perfect question for Programmers.SE, as far as I can tell. Without an MCVE, it doesn't really belong here. — Lightness Races in Orbit 53 secs ago
@gnat You're up.
@Duga C5 is a null pointer, not a heisenbug. Poor OP. With some editing, that might be on topic here
10:52 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ...what is MCVE?
Minimal Complete Verifiable Example
I'd want to scope that down so it's not a "how do I debug?" question
@duffymo If you look at the original post it is an extremely low quality question and is obviously a homework question. It is not just me who thinks so. This question should have been closed in the first place. As for the answer I down voted and left the comment because I believe in learning than copying and pasting. As for low rep anyone can get more reps on this site if they wanted. Obviously rep points are more important to you than actually helping someone learn. The OP didnt even reply to any comments or anything other than saying thank you to already written code. I HATE BAD PROGRAMMERS — khuderm 36 secs ago
10:57 PM
@Duga It's Friday, here's your MCVE
@JimmyHoffa Since Duga's a bot, would she consider that offensive?
@GlenH7 it's Friday for @Duga too.
That one's for you @Duga
those pics/videos take up a lot of screen real estate.
9 hours ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
Dec 7 at 16:42, by Jimmy Hoffa
Nov 6 at 20:35, by enderland
2 days ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
yesterday, by MichaelT
Jul 28 '14 at 18:52, by Jimmy Hoffa
<--- Helping.
does that wash enough of it away?
if not, I could always...help more... :)
eventually that's going to hit the right edge of the chat
11:03 PM
37 secs ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
9 hours ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
Dec 7 at 16:42, by Jimmy Hoffa
Nov 6 at 20:35, by enderland
2 days ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
yesterday, by MichaelT
Jul 28 '14 at 18:52, by Jimmy Hoffa
<--- Helping.
18 secs ago, by Ixrec
...chat supports circular references?
There, that's better.
...chat supports circular references?
recursion :)
Chat supports some interesting stuff...
Jul 28 '14 at 18:52, by Jimmy Hoffa
4 mins ago, by Aaron Hall
37 secs ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
9 hours ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
Dec 7 at 16:42, by Jimmy Hoffa
Nov 6 at 20:35, by enderland
2 days ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
yesterday, by MichaelT
Jul 28 '14 at 18:52, by Jimmy Hoffa
<--- Helping.
11:10 PM
@Shog9 GAH! Don't encourage them!
21 hours ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
@LightnessRacesinOrbit no more scotch and coffee antics... I would be forced to toil away my time writing code like I did before SE...the horror; take it back shog, take it back!
No do close the chatternets... :( Just make TL 302 to a book about morals or something
@Shog9 I'm citing you in my profile nowadays.
@JimmyHoffa c'mon...
@Shog9 - how long does it usually take you to process various incidents and then come back with your much higher level analysis of the situation(s)? After reading the MSE, MSO, and MSFF posts about the various chat drama, I was really impressed at the level you took the discussion to.
@GlenH7 depends on the situation
That's fair. I think the MSFF one is what really impressed me the most. That was quite a heated situation, and your analysis of it quickly moved past the weeds and took it to where the conversation belonged
11:14 PM
I spend a lot of time reading what others' are saying, and trying to understand what's missing. Sometimes, that takes a while - especially when no one's talking.
The whole analogy of sitting in a tavern / bar somewhere seemed very apt
@Shog9 I propose a chat rule - anything said can't be deleted for 10 seconds.
@GlenH7 dibs:
@AaronHall Where?
11:16 PM
@GlenH7 yeah, it's what that community needed to hear, I think - they were full of personalities that you might find in a bar, loudly talking to anyone who'll listen, until the owner gently encourages them to leave.
On the main site, that's why I called it a chat rule. :P
it's an analogy that falls apart elsewhere though
@AaronHall Look more closely at the message I'm replying to!
@AaronHall no one calls me Heyer, btw ;-)
@Shog9 The diversity of room culture is what makes it a thorny beast to rein in.
11:17 PM
@Shog9 I do. I value real world personalities.
OMG, you never read his profile?
@AaronHall No?
:P Like gag me with a spoon.
@GlenH7 yeah... That's where I'm trying to kinda sit back and listen for a while with the current discussion. SE traditionally works best when a lot of folks sorta all understand how things are supposed to work and convey that notion to new folks as they come in; that's not always happening in chat though, and my gut feeling is we have too many different ideas about what chat is.
So, worth listening to all of them.
11:19 PM
Teams? How long has that been a thing? I should check in on SO more often...
a month maybe?
@Shog9 One more bug to put in your ear is how room owners are able to be selected. I haven't been keeping up with the MSE thread to see if that's been mentioned. But having a single toxic room owner enables other similarly minded room owners to be selected.
I think there needs to be a mechanism to do room moderation other than "room owner".
@Shog9 they provide anything interesting? Can I make a The Whiteboard team? Or perhaps just a Coffee Day team...
I wasn't entirely sure what answers you wanted on that MSE question, tbh that's the only reason I haven't posted any answers or comments myself
it seemed like another essay about why the flagging system needs work wasn't what you were after
11:21 PM
sorry, misread that
@Ixrec it isn't, really. The problems with flags invariably follow from the problems elsewhere; they'd be easy to fix if folks were on the same page about what they wanted.
fair enough
@GlenH7 yeah... A difference there between small rooms and larger ones. For a room with maybe 3-10 people in it, RO is less important.
the only thing I had to add was that, at least of the flags I've seen, over half are completely frivolous, which robs them of any semblance of being a legitimate indicator that someone crossed a line
@Shog9 on a more serious note; has SO thought about doing anything regarding the FGITW problem from a feature standpoint of late? I know it's something that has been talked over ad nauseum for years - but only recently has SO seemed to be committing to a robust feature-development-plan so seems things they talk about recently are more likely to actually come to fruition
11:23 PM
@JimmyHoffa not really, not yet anyway. Just a way to show off your allegiances.
but it's true we probably can't solve that problem without some agreement on the line first
@JimmyHoffa you have to consider FGITW a problem first...
@Shog9 badges. Fun. Can users make them? We want hats, I would proudly wear a coffee mug team badge on my SO profile
Q: The Teams Private Beta is Starting

Thomas OrozcoThe Teams private beta is starting now! Here’s what a Team page looks like: What’s Happening Now? For Users That Are Enrolled in the Beta: If you are enrolled in the beta, you should have received (or will shortly receive) an email with instructions regarding how to create your Team. You wil...

@Shog9 ah, is that SO's agreed on perspective of it? From a business standpoint and community standpoint it absolutely isn't a problem I understand, but I thought it was something SO did see as an issue - I could have been wrong though. I've stayed away from SO for years so I don't keep up...
11:25 PM
@JimmyHoffa getting an answer to your question FAST is something an awful lot of folks rather appreciate. Competing for that spot is also fun for a lot of folks.
For those that aren't interested, it's easy enough to opt out (although less obvious than it should be)
Have you seen the new nav?
don't believe so
anecdotally, I've heard multiple people who (unlike me) are invested in SO claim that the FGITW problem discourages quality answers to the point that they no longer have any desire to participate in the site; while I have no way of quantifying that it certainly seems like that would qualify as a problem
Q: New Navigation Release Candidate

Ebenezer SklivvzeTLDR: We overhauled the navigation again. To get it you need to opt in via the user preferences page, and we want your general feedback (love it / hate it) after you try it for a few days. We are planning to deploy it before the end of the year, and your feedback is important. New new nav: bac...

@Shog9 how do you "opt out" ? I opted out by switching over to P.SE years ago, not aware of another approach
Biggest problem on SO is finding what you're after. Whether that's the newest question you can FGITW, or an interesting question you can chew on for a while.
11:27 PM
@Ixrec depends on the site goal really. As he said above, they want people to get answers and quickly, which is reasonable and beneficial to many people..
so we're reworking the navigation to try & address that.
@Shog9 I've visited the Lounge, I've seen people I think are worthy of moderating present, but they didn't have authority to do anything.
That's very cool. Might actually encourage me to participate on SO more
@Shog9 ah - so there is something of recent that may aid with FGITW
if that's what you're after, yes
11:28 PM
yesterday, by GlenH7
okay, when do we get our 3 votes to close back?
@gnat did Jon post his post mortem yet?
@gnat I think that's up to us to have that conversation with Jon
might wanna wait a little bit, just to give the results time to settle
@Shog9 Nope, not yet
@GlenH7 any idea where we go to do that? I haven't seen him here since...week 2 of the experiment?
11:29 PM
A week to a month for stuff to get edited / reopened / deleted
@Shog9 not yet. And I'm not holding my breath for it, there could be simply a lot of food for thought there for him
let's wait on it then. Lotta stuff happening this month, and holidays & so on
@Ixrec We have the usual options - could ping him on the original question with a comment. Any of the mods could ping him in TL. Worst case is that I or one of the other non-progs-mods could super ping him here.
@gnat I don't want the analysis rushed - there's a very good potential of making a permanent change for our site and possibly other SE sites. My fear is that rushing things would push us towards not getting the change.
@GlenH7 agree about 200%
11:32 PM
All in all, I think it was very positive for the site. And it allowed the regular community moderation group to focus on higher value activities for the site instead of scrubbing out close worthy questions.
I'm glad it happened because at least for that short while it made me care about the site again; it was actually a place worth visiting and contributing to because the junk got cleaned up
right now I'm just really nervous that we'll never get back to that state, but still hoping
@GlenH7 I particularly enjoyed editing to reopen. Haven't had so much fun with this for over a year. Felt like in good old days, before that friggin' "SE Quality Project" started pushing garbage towards non-SO sites
what exactly was the "SE Quality Project"? all I remember is SO getting Triage
I sincerely hope the numbers show that things like edits went up during the experiment. I think that would be a solid reason to make it a permanent change.
Jon's latest meta answer already shows that
he sounded very positive about it
11:36 PM
Which answer?
A: The number of votes required to close and reopen questions is temporarily reduced . . . for science!

Jon EricsonI wasn't going to update the experiment this week, but the results this week were so encouraging I can't help myself: Week posted Qs Closed Close Rate Closed->Edited Reopened Cl->Ed->Re Deletion Rate ----------- --- ------ ---------- -------------- -------- ---------- ------------- 2015-10-12 ...

@Ixrec Triage is part of it. And more sophisticated question blocks etc etc. meta.stackexchange.com/tags/se-quality-project/info Improvements in SO close queue are formally not a part of it but tightly coupled
Yeah, that seems cool and legit.
@Ixrec I missed that
11:41 PM
@gnat was any part of it not exclusive to SO?
@Ixrec part for rolling q-blocks went network wide
There's some injustice in answers posted 6 months ago buried next to answers that were posted 6 years ago that both have double-digit range upvotes.
@AaronHall you probably use "wrong" sort order. Like many (most?) active site users do...
Q: How many votes and flags are cast by users preferring particular answer order (active / oldest / votes)?

gnatAnswers sort order "sticks", meaning that system stores it somehow, so that it is possible to get statistics related to its usage. I would like to know how many (percentage) of votes and flags are cast by users who prefer "active", "oldest" and "votes" sort order respectively. I expect this to ...

...and frankly, I hope to find out that most votes and flags are cast by folks using different (default) order. :) That would mean I can worry less about a bunch of quality issues that are "amplified" by my (active) sort order — gnat Mar 5 at 22:07
how does the system define "latest activity?"
trivial edits? comments? That doesn't seem ideal either.
I guess there's some injustice in new answers supplanting old ones too, but the site seems to be based on the proposition that "how it works" is the best answers are at the top.
@AaronHall for "active" answers sorting, by edits
11:51 PM
I'd replace the current vote sort order and replace it with something like recent vote velocity
Yes, I'd replace it twice, redundantly.
@AaronHall well, as for me, I'd "replace" current approach of how system handles multiple answers. Try questions with 4 or less answers, it's easy to notice that any sort order works reasonably well for these. Things get worse when there are more answers than that...
Q: The system supports questions with multiple answers poorly (and is becoming worse at it)

gnatTL;DR Can the system do something to help us more efficiently handle quality of the content in questions with multiple answers? Recently I've seen notes from Stack Exchange staff about how it would be nice if site would allow for broader, softer kind questions. This was said by Robert Cartaino...

I have no idea what this is asking. You just sort of launch into trying to back up your proposal without actually clearly stating what it is. What does "handle quality of the content" mean? And what's not "efficient" about how it's currently performed? And what in heck does "question has multiple answers" have to do with anything? — Lightness Races in Orbit 18 secs ago
Yeah, you need a free downvote per day
we need to get our users in more of a habit of downvoting

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