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Anonymous
1:40 AM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Filed away for future table flipping: ウリャア (ノ╬◣д◢)ノ ~┻━┻
 
@snailboat I put it in my calendar for three months from now.
 
Anonymous
Hehe!
 
8:23 AM
Note to self: 'If the weather is not so good, I read a book or news' may have another issue besides 'some news'. I think it's grammatical, and probably even felicitous, but I think my natural choice would be 'I would read ...'
 
8:33 AM
1
A: Is 'swim in the soup ' a common expression for English native-speakers?

J.R.First of all, I wouldn't call it a commonly-used idiom, although it would be hard to show that, because the phrase in the soup can be used in a lot of different ways (cooking being the most obvious). I did a Google search for "I am in the soup," and didn't find all that many hits. Moreover, even ...

Yay, finally, someone who reads the usage the same way I do!
 
Anonymous
Does that soup sentence seem weird to anyone else?
 
Anonymous
Or is it just me?
 
I think it's used figuratively.
You've seen the original, right?
 
Anonymous
I'm sure it is
 
Anonymous
I meant the one the OP quoted
 
8:41 AM
(Thanks to Usernew's dig. :-)
 
Anonymous
Thanks!
 
Welcome!
 
Anonymous
Somehow it seems less weird in context.
 
Anonymous
But maybe that's just me, too :-)
 
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Did you see our new hamster girl?
 
8:45 AM
I've seen only one photo of her!
 
Anonymous
I still don't have any good pictures, but I have some more bad ones I can share later :-)
 
9:11 AM
1
Q: Phrase "as will"?

Lee In ascertaining their intention, we must take account of those factors which favour an insistence on documents in such a form as will evidence with certainty a contract and the terms of that contract, factors expressed and underlined by Lord Greene. Above is an extract from a legal judgement...

I think this is related to a recent question fromm Cookie Monster.
6
Q: a role in whatever Western diplomatic effort might eventually bring the war to an end -- why is there no "that" after "effort"?

Cookie MonsterSource: Russian media is spinning the downing of a Russian jet fighter into a wider conspiracy theory Example: In Given the alternatives, that’s good news: It means that Russia is unlikely to respond to the Turks militarily and unlikely to drag NATO into broader conflict. It could also mean ...

In learners' eyes, that is missing in many phrases in English!
> ... an insistence on documents in such a form as will evidence with certainty a contract and the terms of that contract, ...
(OP: Argh! Where is that? Shouldn't it be in such a form { that | as it } will evidence ...?)
 
Anonymous
The will question got a lot of answers that weren't quite up to par :-(
 
A good example of what I just said in the other room! (All sorts of answers)
 
Anonymous
We certainly do get all sorts of answers from new users lately
 
Anonymous
Good and bad
 
Anonymous
I can't read all of them and vote unfortunately
 
9:39 AM
Something related to pundit / pandit. This is from Mangala Sutta in Pali:
> asevana ca balanam; panditanan ca sevana
 
Anonymous
Can you translate it? I don't know Pali or Sanskrit
 
(Bala or พาล ~ the fool; pandit or บัณฑิต ~ the wise)
rough trans.: "avoid the fool and associate with the wise"
 
Anonymous
Interesting proverb!
 
Mangala Sutta ~ Supreme Blessings :-)
The verse is actually the first two blessings. :D
 
Anonymous
I'll have to look this up when I'm at a computer
 
9:44 AM
This page sums up the 38 supreme blessings quite well: buddhaspace.blogspot.com/2012/07/…
 
@DamkerngT. Interesting. In Russian, bolvan is "fool"
 
@CopperKettle Interesting indeed!
 
a+sevana is also cool; "a" is probably a negation particle
 
sevana (เสวนา) has a wide range of meanings in Thai. I'm not sure if it's all those meanings in Pali as well.
 
@CK Okay... NB "particularly if", but not necessarily. You can use some when you want, and you can forgo its use when you want. Watch more movies, read more (good) fiction: that will "learn" you how native speakers express themselves. — NES 43 mins ago
 
9:46 AM
This dict gives: associate, mix with, talk, speak, converse
 
nods
 
@CopperKettle Yes, asevana (อเสวนา) means not sevana. :D
 
Anonymous
Learn meaning 'teach' is non-standard, of course. Sometimes I think it's used more often as an intentional and marked departure from Standard English than as part of the normal usage of any particular non-standard dialect
 
@snailboat I agree, I noticed that! (0:
Again your're waking late into the night, Snails!
 
Anonymous
I should probably be asleep, it's true :-)
 
9:52 AM
You must, or have to!
(0:
 
Anonymous
Oh no, external obligation!
 
Anonymous
Up till now, I thought it was just internal obligation :-)
 
Anonymous
I upvoted that answer, but there are a few bits that need editing
 
Anonymous
And I'm afraid it could be misleading, since the opening seems to imply that it'd be fine with nothing in the determiner slot
 
@snailboat NES's anwer?
 
Anonymous
9:56 AM
Still, if you read the whole thing, it ends up being informative
 
Anonymous
Yes
 
nods
 
Anonymous
In my mind, by the way, NES is Nintendo Entertainment System
 
@snailboat Same here. I remember it being an unreachable dream in 1990s. (0:
A cool gaming console (0:
 
Anonymous
The initialism for "native speaker of English", as far as I'm concerned, is NSoE
 
10:00 AM
nods
 
Anonymous
@CopperKettle We had an NES!
 
His advice to read more books did not work for my grammar. (0:
 
Anonymous
My brother took it apart, though, and never quite got it back together.
 
In the end, I had to read some grammar..
@snailboat In Russia we say, "he took it apart, then reassembled, and discovered there were leftover parts"
 
Anonymous
Yeah, I don't know. It's clear that people can stall out in language acquisition even with very large amounts of input.
 
10:02 AM
@snailboat I used to keep a list of English books I've read, but after it went above 110+, I stopped.
(0:
 
Anonymous
I've known people that have lived in the U.S. for a very long time (decades!) who stopped improving years ago
 
Same here. It seems that you need conscious effot to push past some line.
Because at some level your knowlegde is 100% appropriate for usual chat.
But is not appropriate for advanced text writing.
 
Anonymous
I didn't study grammar at all when I first started learning Japanese
 
@snailboat The same experience I got when I dismantled a clock as a very young boy. :D
 
Anonymous
It seems useful now though :-)
 
Anonymous
10:04 AM
Hehe!
 
I hated grammar.. I focused only on learning English words (0:
 
Anonymous
I thought of grammar as a kind of vocabulary
 
Anonymous
You just learned how to say X, and there was grammar somewhere in there :-)
 
@CopperKettle The opposite could be true as well. You may be able to write formal texts just fine and yet don't know how to make small talk right.
 
Anonymous
10:07 AM
I think you get good at what you take in, and what you practice
 
I guess it's right. (0: (you're right, I mean)
 
Or speaks fluent Elizabethan but fails in Present Day English.
 
hello!
 
nods
 
can anyone explain this to me: What we see and what we seem are but a dream, a dream within a dream.
 
10:07 AM
o/
 
o/ @DamkerngT.
 
Everything is maya.
 
@Usernew It seems obvious to me. (0:
 
Anonymous
but = only, seem = seem to be
 
thanks all!
that little thing was confusing me :"(
I thought it to be What we see and what we seem are not reality, but a dream, a dream within a dream.
pretty much the same thing, right or wrong?
 
10:09 AM
Yes
 
Pretty much the same thing.
 
but is there a special meaning to "a dream within a dream"?
 
It's a poetic turn of phrase.
 
Hyperbole, I'd say.
 
Anonymous
But isn't contrastive here, it means 'just; only'
 
10:10 AM
hmmm
 
@Usernew But you might see a great movie titled Inception
 
Thanks @snailboat
yes, I have seen it :)
 
@Usernew It has dreams within dreams
(0:
 
this is from the movie * Picnic at Hanging Rock*
ok, stupid me, lol, Thank gain folks, See ya! have a good day! @CopperKettle @snailboat @DamkerngT.
*thanks
 
10:13 AM
@Usernew - if you liked Russian SF movies, you might like this:
Kin-dza-dza! (Russian: Кин-дза-дза!, translit. Kin-dzah-dza!) is a 1986 Soviet sci-fi dystopian black comedy cult film released by the Mosfilm studio and directed by Georgiy Daneliya, with a story by Georgiy Daneliya and Revaz Gabriadze. The movie was filmed in color, consists of two parts and runs for 135 minutes in total. Like many of Daneliya's works, Kin-dza-dza! represents a double entendre in terms of parody and features dark and grotesque aspects of humanity. It depicts a desert planet, depleted of its resources, home to an impoverished dog-eat-dog society with extreme inequality and...
"The natives of the planet appear human, with deceptively primitive-looking technology and a barbaric culture, which satirically resembles that of humans. They are telepathic; the only spoken words normally used in their culture are “ku” (koo) and “kyu” (kew), the latter being a swear word."
"and a barbaric culture" - the article is probably out of place
 
So Spanish and Portuguese don't call something a noun phrase, not even when you calque those. They call it a sintagma nominal, so a nominal syntagma.
2
One could do that in English but it's certainly uncommon to my ear.
> 4. Linguistics. ad. F. syntagme (F. de Saussure a 1913, Cours de Linguistique Générale (1916) ii. v. 176). A syntactic unit comprising two or more linguistic signs or elements. Also transf.

1937 J. Orr tr. Iordan’s Introd. Romance Linguistics iv. 286 ― A syntagma is composed of at least two units in sequence.
1946 Word II. 117 ― To the best of our knowledge, there are three such ultimate and irreducible signs: the phoneme, the word, and the construction or syntagma.
1946 Word 118 ― The syntagma is defined as the sign of the relations into which the referents of words, enter.
It looks like we lifted the term directly from the French, and recently.
Actually, we borrowed the linguistic use from the French.
But Milton used it forever ago:
> 1644 Milton Areop. (Arb.) 67 ― All must be supprest which is not found in their Syntagma.
> ǁ syntagma /sɪnˈtægmə/.
Pl. -ata or -as.

Etymology: mod.L., a. Gr. σύνταγμα, f. συντάσσειν (see syntaxis).

1. A regular or orderly collection of statements, propositions, doctrines, etc.; a systematically arranged treatise.
I did take two light linguistics courses when I went to university in Spain lo these three and thirty years ago, but I cannot now distinguish a genuine mention of that term there and then from an “implanted memory” of the same. Too much semantic satiety right now.
You kind of can’t call them frases in those languages, because that word means to them not phrase as we call it so much as what we call a sentence.
 
10:29 AM
I've just read a non-PC joke
A little boy comes home from the kindergarten and says: "Dad, they call me a kike!"
"Get used to it, son. They will call you that in school and in the university"
"And at work"
"But then you'll get a Nobel Prise, and everybody will start calling you a great Russian scientist!"
 
11:23 AM
@CopperKettle I've never been called a cake.
 
12:08 PM
Hullo @Arau
 
 
2 hours later…
1:39 PM
@CopperKettle Thanks! I will check it out soon, depending on the availability. :)
 
1:51 PM
Hey @Dam. Come here, I have a controversial sentence for you to discuss the grammaticality of between under among.
 
I think between vs. among was raised several times.
 
> No one of them sounds natural.
 
None of them would be better.
 
I know.
We're focused on this one.
Is it ungrammatical, or not?
I know we can go with none of them or not one of them.
 
I would toss it into my "marginal" bucket.
 
1:54 PM
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
 
Plants a bomb in the "marginal" bucket
BRB writing ELL stuff.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. s/bomb/pansy/ || frag
 
@tchrist We should make @Dam pay.
For throwing everything into the marginal bucket.
 
1:56 PM
Such federal offense. ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
Hey, that link sounds familiar.
 
I pasted that link here once. :D
 
> What is Dicentra, Alex?
 
WTH, I can't find a good link about negative determinatives.
 
@tchrist I wonder if it'd be considered a correct answer on Jeopardy.
 
Unlikely. :)
It’s just one of the few genera whose name I happen to know.
 
2:10 PM
Good evening.
I'm trumped:
 
Evening!
 
Thank you very much for complete answer. It is very conclusive for me, but I have met the expression "Lillian D. Wald, public health nurse and __________, was born in Cincinnati Ohio, in 1867" in the TOEFL test. Are there any exceptions to this rule? — arsast 1 min ago
I've just wrote a whole big megillah of an answer, and a TOEFL test contradicts it. D'oh.
 
@CopperKettle Caring father?
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. The matter is, there's no a before "public health nurse"
 
Because that's an appositive.
Oh wait, no.
 
2:11 PM
Hmm...
 
According to Quirk et al., at least if I understand it right, there should be a
 
Because you can do that.
Should, not must.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. In Unit 5.42 Quirk et al. say that the rule applies to appositives too.
 
It's from BREAK DOWN! Soal-Soal TOEFL By Eka Rahmat Fauzy, Fauzi Yudiashari, Lidya Cristina
 
I've observed this article omitting in many newspaper reports.
 
"There is, however, one circumstance in which the zero article occurs in such
constructions: this is where the complement (or an equivalent appositive
noun phrase) names a UNIQUE ROLE or task. "
 
I can't find that sentence in a non-prep book.
 
@DamkerngT. Thanks for the link!
 
That whether this is acceptable in standard English is debatable, but it's certainly not the first time I see this kind of usage.
18 hours ago, by Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.
Well, about me we don't need to go that far. The me three months ago was a little foolish scumbag with bad questions and worse answers.
 
@DamkerngT. what is a "non-prep" - that does not prepare someone for exams?
 
2:14 PM
Two stars, I'm proud.
@CopperKettle Yeah I assume.
 
@CopperKettle For having no better word, I used non-prep as an antonym of prep (books).
 
Oh, that explains it! (0:
 
These prep books usually pull their example sentences from a real book.
 
Not book, newspaper articles.
Go look for similar usages.
 
That, too!
 
2:16 PM
Maybe this "public health nurse" is a bit of journalese..
 
Quite possibly, imho.
 
> Martin Partin, 35, pilot, insists that the crash was a planned attack.
4 mins ago, by Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.
I've observed this article omitting in many newspaper reports.
BTW I made the sentence above up.
 
nods
 
Let's see if I can find a similar thing in a real magazine.
 
Sure. While you're at it, can we count 'no' as a negative quantifier?
As in
> No injuries were spotted.
 
2:19 PM
It seems so, but I usually doubt myself for this kind of thing.
 
Gaaah
 
> One day in the nineteen-fifties, Carol Aird (Cate Blanchett), a wife and mother, is shopping for Christmas presents at a department store in Manhattan.
That's normal.
> There she met Demers, a physics professor, and for the past few years the two have been teaching a course examining intersections between their disciplines.
 
looky here: "a public health nurse", a PDF from NY Public Library
 
@CopperKettle Nice catch!
 
@DamkerngT. No no, this isn't where I'd expect a journalistic omission of article.
 
2:25 PM
@DamkerngT. Thanks! (0:
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Probably only works in the telegraphic/headlinese style.
 
@DamkerngT. Yes.
@CopperKettle Mice catch!
@CopperKettle Mice patch!
@CopperKettle Rice patch!
@CopperKettle Rice hatch!
@CopperKettle Vice latch!
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. - You've got a case of chat overdose. (0:
 
If you tried to make me hungry, it was a great success. :-)
 
> A determinative, also known as a taxogram or semagram, is an ideogram used to mark semantic categories of words in logographic scripts which helps to disambiguate interpretation.
I can't parsogram or understandogram that sentence that well.
 
2:30 PM
I've found the names of the authors of this TOEFL book: Eka Rahmat Fauzy, Fauzi Yudiashari, Lidya Cristina.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Sounds like it tries to categorize determinative for all languages (thus "logographic scripts").
 
Fuzzy Christie?
 
I wonder what Soal means.
 
@DamkerngT. Yeah, that's what Wikipedia always does. But who studies all of the languages anyway.
 
Linguists! Definitely linguists, and some fish. :P
 
2:33 PM
@DamkerngT. Who is referring to human specimen. Gimme a human example.
 
LOL -- Perhaps those names in the edit history of that Wikipedia page?
Hey, soal is an Indonesian word, meaning "question" or "problem".
 
"doubt"
 
nods -- Possibly. I think "question" or "problem" fits the book better.
 
@Dam is "not" a determinative?
 
I don't think so. Though I'm not 100% sure.
 
2:43 PM
@Snail HELP
Oh it feels like calling 911.
 
Heh
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. not lacks enough determination to come out of the closet as a determinative
 
So what is it?
 
I don't care. It doesn't bother learners. (0:
 
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
New question in da house \CC @Dam @Copper:
0
Q: Is "no one of them seems grammatical" ungrammatical? Why?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.I wonder if the following sentence will be grammatical in the most bizarre context: No one of them seems grammatical. Clearly, they're way better ways to phrase this sentence, either by using the negative determinative "none" or removing the complement "of them" or any other way to get sent...

 
Cheers!
"No one seems grammatical." -- it feels as if it refers to people
 
2:59 PM
@CopperKettle Yeah, hence the small note under it.
Though none of us seem grammatical.
 
Hmm... CGEL, page 356, doesn't include not in their list of determinatives. There is only no in "negative determinative".
 
Someone go get that Snail.
 
She needs sleep.
 
@CopperKettle O_O What happens when a grammar sleeps?
Anyway what's evident is that this chat certainly lacks something without @Snail.
:-) × 65536
Hmm, finding what 'not' is is really hard.
Do we have something like 'negator'?
'Negativizer'?
'negatifier'?
 
Negator, yes.
 
3:14 PM
Ahh. Can we call 'not', simply, a negative marker?
We can.
> The examples in [ii] differ in polarity, with [a] positive and [b] negative. In this
example, the negative differs from the positive not just by virtue of the **negative marker *not*** but also by the addition of the semantically empty auxiliary do.
P.60 @Dam
 
Yes, the book calls it so elsewhere as well.
 
Hmm, so not would be a negative marker and no a negative quantifier.
I see no reason why the "no" version would be ungrammatical.
 
I think marker is a generic term. It's not like determiner or quantifier.
 
Yes.
So we're still "hanging in the air" on what we should call it.
 
I remember answering question very much like this:
1
Q: Nominal subject clauses

AleTo emphasise a particular information in a sentence we put a what clause followed by the appropriate form of the verb be: We are looking for volunteers. » What we are looking for is volunteers. I really like action films. » What I really like is action films. Is this a formal ...

 
3:24 PM
I remember discussing it with Snail.
 
But I've got 362 answers, and I dont recall any catchwords
 
"What" is a keyword. :)
 
Haha
I found it
6
Q: "What makes her laugh IS ..." or "What makes her laugh ARE ..." - plural or singular?

Gudson ChouSometimes I get confused by the usage of "what" as a pronoun. Specifically, I am not sure if "what" stands for "the thing that" or for "the things that" or for both. For example, which of the following are acceptable: "What makes her laugh is dirty jokes." "What makes her laugh are dir...

 
@CopperKettle VTC! (/¯◡ ‿ ◡)/¯ ~ ┻━┻
 
Virtual Teacher Cats?
 
3:27 PM
Vascular Ticket Checking.
 
I have though that "the people election" is a subject here and "delegates" is an action(verb). Am I wrong? — arsast 7 mins ago
 
@CopperKettle He has though? Did he eat though with lemonade, or preferred dry food?
1
A: Is "no one of them seems grammatical" ungrammatical? Why?

StoneyBThe phrase no one of them is "grammatical" (taking that to mean that it is both idiomatic and meaningful), but it is not always the same thing as none of them. It is an emphatic form employed to distinguish a proposition concerning a number of entities taken singly from propositions concerning th...

Of course! Why did we miss this possibility?
 
4:22 PM
BTW @Dam I noticed you have the highest-scored self-answer on ELL.
 
Oh, really?
 
Hehe!
 
0
Q: Tell how these collocations have been formed?

vinay kumarWhat is more right to say? Cough trouble or trouble of cough. I m struggling to get answer to this question, Can any one crack this mystery?

Hmm, I wonder if I should go write a deep, DEEP self-answer.
@Dam do you think I should go write a post on why 'not many' and 'few' are different?
 
Why not? As Nike says, just do it. :-)
 
4:33 PM
I fear it might be too complicated for ELLers.
Well, not really, but it could just mix them up.
 
Hullo @bluejimmy with a green avatar! Welcome to LO!
 
@CopperKettle I remember that channel! I think I've seen it on Ellen once. Funny pronunciations. Hope nobody really believes them. :D
 
@CopperKettle That's where reading IPA gets you.
 
Anonymous
5:41 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Pretty sure they're doing it wrong on purpose :-)
 
5:54 PM
@snailboat Whatever. I didn't even click on the video links.
Hullo BTW!
 
Good morning, @Snails!
@CopperKettle: Usually it's fairly obvious to native speakers what such "compound nouns" actually refer to, but even after Googling steel pacifier I don't really understand that one. Whatever - I think the principles and the "many ways" by which one can form such terms are too vague to be concisely summarized into an answer here. — FumbleFingers 1 min ago
I'm amazed that Google failed to find "steel pacifier". (0:
 
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