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7:06 AM
@yo' Well ...
People are stupid...
2 hours later…
8:46 AM
@Jasper Quack
@DavidCarlisle Tar
1 hour later…
9:48 AM
@DavidCarlisle Have an alternative plan: I'll adjust the set up macro so it does a check on each primitive (probably for those post-e-TeX): that way we don't have to track every LuaTeX version
10:16 AM
@egreg That nice looking girl said in todays part of the introduction: Pi is a mathematical constant and hence has to be upright, not italic. Is that true?
@Johannes_B Depends on what traditions you follow :-)
@Johannes_B Pure mathematicians (such as @egreg) would say no, pi should be italic. On the other hand, people in the physical sciences like me would say it should be as it's not a variable, it's a constant.
@Johannes_B It's neither true nor wrong...
@JosephWright So that is kinda like the upright/italic differential operator?
@Johannes_B Indeed
@JosephWright She is a physicist.
10:23 AM
@Johannes_B Makes sense
@JosephWright What about the speed of light?
@Johannes_B Interesting one :-)
@Johannes_B I think italic as it's symbol is $c_{0}$ not just $c$ (the fact it's a fixed speed comes from the subscript)
@JosephWright $c_{0}$ is rarely used in theoretical physics -- we use sometimes $c=1$ and all is well ;-)
@ChristianHupfer Couldn't say: not a physicist!
@JosephWright We are the Physicists -- resistance is futile, you will be approximated ;-)
10:28 AM
@ChristianHupfer Was just thinking about you, as you are the one pulling people to the dark side.
@Johannes_B:Dark is relative :-P
@Johannes_B And I am no template designer so I am not really dark ;-)
@ChristianHupfer That is the sadest point. I have fallen to the dark side.
@ChristianHupfer Well, technically i was redoing the class file (which is not a template in my understanding) and have made some improvements to the example file.
@Johannes_B There's still a good character in you. We will help you. Abjure to be a Templatean ;-)
@ChristianHupfer There is a new bug report :-) github.com/VelNZ/mastersdoctoralthesislatex/issues/15
@Johannes_B: Yes, well, I did not pursue this VEL stuff
10:36 AM
@Johannes_B Like @Johannes_B said. For centuries, it has been written in italics; then engineers came and said that constants should be upright. Physicists are funner: the physical constants must be in italics, because they're not really constants.
@egreg This is confusing. Very confusing.
@StefanKottwitz I have the feeling that this is a spam account latex-community.org/forum/… 4 posts so far.
11:19 AM
@StefanKottwitz Ha, the user posted a riting service ad in post five. Can you zap the account?
@DavidCarlisle Working on the LuaTeX stuff: expl3 will be sorted today
11:40 AM
@Johannes_B Your wish is my command! Zapped.
@StefanKottwitz Merci :-)
12:16 PM
@egreg \newcommand{\zB}{z.\nolinebreak[4]\hspace{0.125em}\nolinebreak[4]B.\@\xspace}
@ChristianHupfer Musstest du an mich denken?
I don't know how to search for this: I want to have navigation items (like a table of contents) displayed in a pdf viewer's sidebar, but no "visible" toc in the pdf, for easier navigation on screen
@Christoph bookmarks?
that sounds about right
oooh pdfpages pagecommand
12:43 PM
@Johannes_B \newcommand{\zB}{\mbox{z.\hspace{0.125em}B.}} (the space factor after a box is 1000). Why fiddling with \nolinebreak? By the way, just \nolinebreak would be sufficient and the second one is redundant.
@egreg Don't ask me. I googled the line and it returned 6 matches. :-(
@Johannes_B By the way, the justification for physical constants to be in italics used to be “their value can change with time, as better approximations are obtained”. Really.
@egreg Ok, that i can understand.
@Johannes_B To me it's silly. If the speed of light in vacuum is a constant for theoretical reasons, it is constant. If a new theory finds it's not constant, after all, then it becomes a function and it's a very different object.
@egreg I thought that was meant as add a few extra exact digits at the end.
@egreg But, that would be the same with $\pi$ as it is infinite.
12:51 PM
@Johannes_B Of course, one could simply say “we want to distinguish typographically between mathematical and physical constants”, then it would be OK. But passing around the order that mathematical constants must be upright just because physicists want so is the better way for getting mathematicians into purposely use italics. ;-)
@egreg :-)
1:46 PM
It seems sometimes people use "Ref" instead of "Subject" at the beginning of a letter. Does anyone know a way (in scrlttr2) to have the subject line say "Ref" instead of "Subject"?
No, actually it looks like the "Ref" comes below the "Subject". My mistake.
@FaheemMitha renewcaptionname{english}{\subjectname}{Faheems Subject}; replace english by the babel language in use.
@Johannes_B Will that work with scrlttr2?
@Johannes_B Also, \renewcaptionname?
@FaheemMitha I can find Yourrefname for Your ref and myrefname for Our ref.
@FaheemMitha Sí.
@Johannes_B Ok, I'll try it.
@Johannes_B I don't understand what you mean.
    english,newzealand,UKenglish,USenglish}\yourrefname{Your ref.}%
    english,newzealand,UKenglish,USenglish}\myrefname{Our ref.}%
@FaheemMitha Direct and fresh from the class file ^^^^^ :-)
2:38 PM
@Johannes_B Which class file?
Sorry, was having dinner.
@FaheemMitha scrlttr2.cls
@FaheemMitha Hihi, silly round earth.
@Johannes_B \yourrefname and \myrefname are defined in scrlttr2.cls?
@Johannes_B ?
@FaheemMitha apparently so :-)
@Johannes_B Oh. Let me check.
Are they actually documented anywhere, I wonder.
And I'm not clear how they should be used, either.
@FaheemMitha You said you were having dinner, i just had lunch. made me smile since the only reason for that is: The earth is round.
2:44 PM
@Johannes_B -- your update yesterday to the "good resources for beginners" has the statement "Unfortunately, the LaTeX Wikibook was a bit forgotten." i'd like to rephrase that a bit, perhaps "Unfortunately, proper maintenance of the LaTeX Wikibook has gone astray." (or something like that. the "forgotten" might be interpreted to mean that other answers haven't mentioned it, while what you mean is that it is no longer accurate.) okay if i update?
@Johannes_B Oh, that. Yes. Though even if the world was flat, people could still choose to have meals at different times.
@barbarabeeton sure, go ahead. But was that really yesterday? Seems like almost a week to me.
@FaheemMitha Yeah, sure.
@FaheemMitha -- there's a restaurant near where we live that proudly announces "we serve breakfast all day."
@barbarabeeton Yes, they like to do that in the US.
But I would have thought a proper German would eat breakfast at the proper time, i.e. breakfast.
@barbarabeeton Today was part two of the introduction that made me so furious a week ago. Pretty girl and nothing too strange was mentioned. :-)
2:47 PM
@Johannes_B Pretty girl?
I'm missing some context, methinks.
@FaheemMitha The person who presented, actually three persons. But only the girl is worth mentioning. ;-)
@Johannes_B -- time does fly when you're having fun. i'm finding lots of bad links on that page; by the time i'm done, i hope they're all either working or properly noted as defunct. (hope your encounters with pretty girls progress satisfactorily. and i hope the ones you choose have brains as well as pulchritude.)
@Johannes_B Pretty girls are always worth mentioning.
But what is the context again? You're attending some LaTeX event?
@barbarabeeton pulchritude ... had to look that up :-)
Hi @barbarabeeton. How are things?
2:49 PM
@barbarabeeton TUGboat gone to press?
@Johannes_B It means beauty.
@Johannes_B Same here: @barbarabeeton clearly showing off
Latin, I think.
@Johannes_B You have a new word to compliment the ladies with.
@FaheemMitha There was an introduction to latex, one part last week and one today. The event last week presented some really strange stuff, turned out this is coming from the latex wikibook. So, today wa good news.
@Johannes_B Ah. And why are you attending it, again?
2:51 PM
@FaheemMitha There are thre different introductions to latex at our small university. I just wanted to check ;-)
@Johannes_B Oh. Why?
@FaheemMitha I didn't know the people. They don't attend our regulars table.
@barbarabeeton you're working on the infamous LaTeX wikibook?
@JosephWright -- uploaded to the printer last night. very long list of instructions this time -- one intentional overfull box with the "great black snock" that shouldn't be eliminated or trimmed, as well as what signature gets color and what is grayscaled, and our usual admonition re how to position the spine.
I've actually found it quite useful in the past. Though I don't rely on it heavily.
2:54 PM
@FaheemMitha -- that comes later. this one's my current project: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/11/… -- there is at least a possibility of completing the job successfully.
@barbarabeeton Oh. What are you doing with that question?
@JosephWright -- and why not? (i think i've earned it, along with every single grey hair.) got to keep you folks on your toes.
@FaheemMitha -- checking the links, and resuscitating the ones (quite a few!) that are dead.
@barbarabeeton Oh, I see.
I gather that Wikibook is currently being a source of contention.
@FaheemMitha Just a little bit. ;-)
3:09 PM
@Johannes_B Should I ask that as a question? It doesn't seem to be covered anywhere.
@FaheemMitha Let me check the doc.
@FaheemMitha Section 4.10 of the current english doc.
3:42 PM
@Johannes_B Sure, I meant on the site.
@FaheemMitha Yeah, i understood. But it is covered in the documentation of KOMA-Script.
@Johannes_B True, but you have to know where to look. And it doesn't have good examples, imo.
@FaheemMitha What would your specific question be?
@Johannes_B How to have Ref: instead of Subject:
@Johannes_B <- @Faheem
3:49 PM
@Johannes_B Yes, you explained how to do it. But I thought it might be a reasonable questin to have on the site. Do you disagree?
@FaheemMitha Possible duplicate of:
Q: How to change the name of document elements like "Figure", "Contents", "Bibliography", "Appendix", etc.?

lockstepI'd like to modify the names used to typeset some of my document elements. For example, the caption of figure floats should change from "Figure" to "Fig.", and my \tableofcontents sectioning heading shouldn't read "Contents", but "Table of Contents". How can I do that? \documentclass{article} % ...

@Johannes_B So it is.
Well, I think Kurt deserves an upvote for his efforts.
@barbarabeeton I looked at the first three videos. The one on math is not really good: the part on \dots is wrong, for instance; also the align* example is silly. And \frac ab is taught, which is a big nuisance. The first two are good.
@FaheemMitha He surely got mine :-)
4:10 PM
@egreg You should write a TeX book. You could title it "You Can Get 400K On TeX Stack Exchange Too".
@JosephWright saw a list of checkin emails:-) (but as I say I'm offline today, just passing by...)
@FaheemMitha -- all links revived. (of course, they're all subject to decay, but i'll make a note to check back from time to time.)
@barbarabeeton Good work. I'm surprised some of that hasn't fallen off the Web.
@FaheemMitha Maybe a good reading for @DavidCarlisle
@egreg -- thanks. i plan to communicate suggestions to the author after i've looked at the videos myself.
@FaheemMitha -- took some digging to find a few of the links, but it turns out that everything is still there. (i did add comments on a few items. and i noticed that since the question has floated to the top because of the updates, a few other people have chimed in. i've noted down a couple of items i didn't know about before the consider adding to the "resources" list on the ams tex web pages.)
4:27 PM
does anyone know lyx here?
@DavidCarlisle Sure, understood
@barbarabeeton A couple of items such as?
4:41 PM
@user87834 There are a couple who know a little bit, but I don't actually think there are anyone who regularly use LyX that hang around in chat. On the site there some LyX users, but still not many.
4:51 PM
@TorbjørnT. Thanks for the reply.
@FaheemMitha -- well, i've just reviewed the ams page, and i find that everything i noted down is already there. one thing i need to do is consider whether to re-order the list; at the moment, it just lists most items in (reverse) chronological order. but some seem to have withstood the test of time better than others, so re-evaluation is in order.
@DavidCarlisle And the tick goes to the correct answer. :P
5:07 PM
@egreg It's still a rubbish heading macro.
@DavidCarlisle Yes, of course!
@user87834 Why don't you just post a question?
@FaheemMitha you should ask that of egreg:-)
@DavidCarlisle LOL
@FaheemMitha I would think its this one tex.stackexchange.com/questions/278529/…
5:17 PM
@DavidCarlisle When you get a mo, could you try (e.g.) \edef\pdfhorigin{\pdfvariable horigin}\show\pdfhorigin with the new LuaTeX? I'd love to know what \edef does here!
Can I message a user personally on this forum?
@user87834 No.
@user87834 It's not a forum ;-)
3 hours later…
8:09 PM
SO Mod Election is on, I see
8:52 PM
@JosephWright OK just got in, will try in a bit
@JosephWright oh wow that's bizarre:-)
$ lualatex s.tex
This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.85.0
 restricted \write18 enabled.
LaTeX2e <2016/01/01>
Babel <3.9m> and hyphenation patterns for 79 languages loaded.
> \pdfhorigin=macro:
->\pdf_horigin .
l.1 ...horigin{\pdfvariable horigin}\show\pdfhorigin

@JosephWright and from that this:
> \pdf_horigin=\pdf_horigin.
<recently read> \pdf_horigin

l.3 \expandafter\show\csname pdf_horigin\endcsname
@JosephWright: Any plans of mod elections on TeX.SX!? (No, I don't want to become a mod) Just a general question
@ChristianHupfer We (as a community) have to request one I think, or the mod team could I guess: no plans from the latter at the moment
@DavidCarlisle Hmm
@JosephWright There's no need to request one, in my point of view. Just read that there are 19 candidates for SO mod elections -- quite a lot, but that's a large community, but TeX.SX is a great community ( ;-))
@JosephWright \pdfvariable dpesn't seem to be described anywhere in the manual, just shown in the list of \edef's for pdf related settings :(
@DavidCarlisle Indeed
@DavidCarlisle None of the \dvi... things are either
@DavidCarlisle On the other hand, the manual suggests \pdfmatrix is still there but its not, ...
9:05 PM
\edef\pdfhoriginb{\pdfvariable horigin }\show\pdfhoriginb
\edef\pdfhoriginc{\pdfvariable horiginn}\show\pdfhoriginc
@JosephWright ^^ define the macro to have two tokens with space and n respectively so it seems that when parsing for its keywords it doesn't have <one optional space>
! I can't go on meeting you like this.
<to be read again>
l.7 \edef\pdfhorigind{\pdfvariable\relax
@DavidCarlisle I was worried about the spaces, I have to say
@DavidCarlisle I've grabbed w32tex LuaTeX 'dev' and am sorting in on my Parallels rig
@JosephWright that's a fatal error, no ? prompt, it just stops
@DavidCarlisle Ooh
@JosephWright lots of emails to luatex list;-)
@DavidCarlisle OK, have working LuaLaTeX v0.85 here
@DavidCarlisle Loss of \pdfoutput going to be painful (even if we fix most things we can)
9:14 PM
@JosephWright I think we should alias that one
@DavidCarlisle Same here
@DavidCarlisle Policy decision for you/Frank/Rainer/Chris/...
@JosephWright I was formulating a plan while driving down the M1 ....
@DavidCarlisle A man, a plan, a canal ...?
@JosephWright There are probably thousands of documents which use \ifx\pdfoutput\undefined, but I doubt their authors will try them with LuaLaTeX.
@egreg True, but still there are quite a lot of packages with similar stuff
9:21 PM
@JosephWright Unfortunately.
@egreg What is required is a decision on what to do
@egreg If we can get Heiko to adjust his ifpdf package that would be a big step in the right direction
@JosephWright That's what I was thinking to.
@DavidCarlisle Could you try testing expl3 again using the updated file I added today? Hopefully most tests should pass: just know that I need to look at the new lines in box traces
@JosephWright ok....
@DavidCarlisle I'm having a bit of fun getting it to work with my 'check out on Mac, run on Parallels, bodge in the wrong binary' approach ;-)
@DavidCarlisle Can see the \edef weirdness
9:28 PM
@JosephWright build check -eluatex running
@DavidCarlisle Cool
  Check failed with difference files
  - ../build/test/d3dvipdfmx.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/d3dvips.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/d3pdfmode.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/d3xdvipdfmx.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/m3box001.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/m3box003.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/m3coffins001.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/m3token004.luatex.diff
@JosephWright ^^
@DavidCarlisle Oddly, my Parallels set up does give a test pass with a 'normal' TL2015, so I should be able to get this going (would be useful: I have a feeling thee and me are the own people going to do this testing)
@DavidCarlisle OK, box traces and primitive changes then I guess
@DavidCarlisle m4token004 basically lists all primitives known for each engine so will doubtless be wrong
@JosephWright diff in mail
@DavidCarlisle As I expected: one set of changes for l3build, one .tlg that will need to be updated, but much less than the 2014 -> 2015 change (or the earlier ones)
9:36 PM
@JosephWright yes, didn't look too bad
@DavidCarlisle Phew: my changes today must have fixed most things
@DavidCarlisle Did you notice what doesn't show up?
@JosephWright ?
9:52 PM
@DavidCarlisle The changes to \pdfliteral, etc.: in the log they are still the same as before (so we get fewer changes)
@JosephWright hmmm, I have the feeling that there will be more changes before 1.0, these changes don't feel quite finished
@DavidCarlisle :-)
@DavidCarlisle Based on your observation above, we'll be able to normalise most of this stuff to the pdfTeX version
\edef\pdfhoriginf{\pdfvariable \space\space horigin}\show\pdfhoriginf seems like it takes <optional spaces> not <filler> which is OK I suppose, bizarre that it is expandable though
@JosephWright if that internal csname is going to stay
I'm trying to figure out how to have multiple senders using scrltt2. The closest thing I've found is:
Q: Multiple side-by-side signatures in letter

RicardoI am attemting to add three side-by-side signature to a scrlttr2 letter by using a minipage environment in the signature definition. I am getting an error: Extra }, or forgotten \endgroup pointing me to the closing line. The error goes away if i do without the minpages. Here's the MWE: \document...

which doesn't really address the issue very well.
10:07 PM
@DavidCarlisle As long as there's some internal name with a syntax we can parse, I can make it look like pdfTeX ;-)
@DavidCarlisle \expandafter\show\csname pdf_horigin\endcsname
@JosephWright yes that's what I did too. But I wonder if that internal csname is supposed to be there (which makes \pdfvariable rather pointless) or if it is just part of a transition.
@DavidCarlisle I guess not (I hope not)
@DavidCarlisle One for the list
Hi @egreg
Could I ask you something not- latex related?
@evinda Yes, of course! Is it about cricket?
No :D I wanted to ask you if you are familiar with the finite difference method @egreg
10:20 PM
@evinda Sorry, not my cup of tea.
Ok... no problem... @egreg
@evinda Numerical solutions of PDE?
Yes, are you familiar with them? @ChristianHupfer
@evinda Somewhat, although it's some years ago since I have used them last
Nice... Shall I shaw you my question here: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/31606/question since it isn't related to latex? @ChristianHupfer
10:36 PM
@DavidCarlisle I've got an oddity here with the W32 build: \write17 fails to do anything (so all tests are broken). I'll check this tomorrow on a 'real' system (not Parallels) and if necessary report.
@JosephWright do you mean write to an unopened17 or after an \openout?
@DavidCarlisle Unopened, as used for example by l3build for \TYPE
@DavidCarlisle This might be a passing thing: it was fine with v0.80

@JosephWright seems Ok here:
$ luatex ww
This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.85.0
 restricted \write18 enabled.
No pages of output.
Transcript written on ww.log.
@DavidCarlisle Also obviously OK for you so limited (probably) to W32
@DavidCarlisle Might be due to my set up or an issue with the build process: I'll investigate tomorrow
@JosephWright OK, have you a feeling what's best: a stream of single issue emails, or one bumper email reporting on 0.85?
10:57 PM
In the following answer:
A: Multiple side-by-side signatures in letter

Gonzalo MedinaInstead of minipages you can use \parboxes: \documentclass[% paper=letter, pagesize, fontsize=10pt, standard ]{scrlttr2} \usepackage[english]{babel} \usepackage{lipsum} \newcommand\Sigline[4][t]{% \parbox[#1]{.333\linewidth}{\raggedright#2}% \parbox[#1]{.333\linewidth}{\raggedright#3}% \p...

By the way @Werner: the latex.ltx link on your profile is dead.
@FaheemMitha ?
It's unclear how the left/right position of the parbox is decided. And can I move the parbox to the left?
Or maybe it's just placed wherever the current location is?
And does anyone have an idea of why minipages don't work here? Just curious.
@FaheemMitha a parbox is just positioned like X (it has no external spacing code at all) the positioning is determined by the surrounding koma setup (about which i know nothing)
@DavidCarlisle Yes, that's kind of what I thought.
When you say X you mean like a character?
And any idea why minipage breaks this setup?
11:10 PM
@FaheemMitha yes I mean literally like X if a \parbox{...} is flushed right (or left, or centered) in some context then replacing it by X would produce a flush right or left or centred X
@DavidCarlisle Ok.
@FaheemMitha ]no I suppose I could try... \parbox and minipage share 99% of their code.
@DavidCarlisle Ok. The issue in that question was left unresolved.
why do authors write buggy packages:
Q: Cropped image using the package title

lonelyI used the frontespizio package to create the cover of my thesis, but when I insert the image (symbol of the university) it is cut. I don't know why. The image is in the right size and not cut, but when it is inserted with the package is slightly cut off at the edges. Change the size in which it ...

@FaheemMitha I just ran the MWE in the question, the only error is undefined \lipsum if I add \usepackage{lipsum} it runs without error.
@DavidCarlisle Oh. So the poster was wrong? And is there any advantage to using minipage vs parboxhere?
11:20 PM
@DavidCarlisle :P
@FaheemMitha as i say they are almost identical, minipage uses an environment form which isn't needed here (as begin and end are in the same macro), and has the minipage footnote thing, so \parbox is perhaps more natural but it is unrelated to the error in the question (which is not related to the example code at all most likely)
@DavidCarlisle No bug and an elegant frontispiece
@DavidCarlisle So how the poster got the error is a mystery?
@egreg it would look better in comic sans
@FaheemMitha yes
@egreg ??
11:22 PM
@DavidCarlisle It can be customized even for that!
@FaheemMitha Base insinuations by @DavidCarlisle
@egreg That's what I got almost an hour ago, but the O.P. was quite reluctant ;-)
@egreg would I ever?
@DavidCarlisle Just once a day. Not so much indeed.
@egreg Ah, the frontespizio package? Cool name.
@egreg and only directed to the deserving.
11:26 PM
@FaheemMitha That's just “frontispiece” in Italian.
@egreg Oh.
@egreg Hardly recognizable ;-)
@DavidCarlisle So you ration yourself? :-)
Well, sleep time. Later, people.
@ChristianHupfer Next version will be titelseite
@egreg @egreg: Ah, but even in German we have 'Frontispiz', although that term is quite obsolete, I think (and very rarely used). However, I demand Titelseite :-P
11:33 PM
@egreg can I have واجهة المبنى
@egreg Greetings from Venezia :-)
@DavidCarlisle Yes, but the frontispiece would end up at the back of the document.
@StefanKottwitz Good!
@egreg given how buggy the package is, I'd be happy to have it appear at all
@StefanKottwitz Beware of not going off the kerbs. ;-)
@egreg I'll take care! Have my safety shoes and helmet with me.
And a towel.
11:37 PM
@StefanKottwitz That's quite important!
@egreg I have to start working on building a ship here, unfortunately not a gondola
@StefanKottwitz How long will you stay?
@ChristianHupfer: FATTY OWLS!
@PauloCereda F....y Towels :D Oh my, I am so glad :D
@ChristianHupfer Hold on, I am writing an email! :)
11:50 PM
@PauloCereda: Yes, I am bugfixing @egreg's packages in the meantime :D

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