« first day (1245 days earlier)      last day (1530 days later) » 

12:36 AM
I'm not sure this is answerable, but I edited it some - workplace.stackexchange.com/q/54055/2322
It feels a bit too much like "company policy" but I feel like it could be useful for other folks too, that situation is probably common (?)
7 hours later…
7:11 AM
So if they have given me an offer, and what if my current employer doesn't agree for a shorter notice period, can they deny that offer?
I don't want to be gone from both sides. :(
And as aa matter of fact, the offer they have given me also has a notice period of 3 months.
7:23 AM
I have recently earned my masters degree, before applying for a phd position, I want to work for some years...
and I do not have any job experience. But I have some experience in the softwares in my major and have published some academic papers related to my MSc thesis
@user1502 As a golden rule, don't EVER resign at your current position or make mention of looking for a new position or bring up your notice period unless you have a signed offer from the new employer.
I found a few companies of my interest, I have prepared my CV. But I don't know what to write in my email to them, asking for a position
@user1502 In your case, simply negotiate your starting period with the new employer. Point out that their offer also specifies a 3 month notice period and it would be weird/unkind of them not to give your current employer the same courtesy they would expect of you in the future.
@EnthusiasticStudent What is your reason for going for a PhD? And why do you want to work for some years first? Financial reasons?
@Lilienthal I really love research, but now that I am trying to find a PhD position, I have some difficulty, some universities do not have empty positions, or they can not support me with funding/scholarship. I see that I am just missing time on PhD. So I decided to work...
Also, I am now about 27, and I only studied and I have not any job experience....
this gives me bad sense...
@EnthusiasticStudent You're not very different from most recent graduates. You should be looking for entry-level positions, preferably related to the field you studied.
As for finding a PhD position or other things related to that you'd best ask on Academia's chat but I assume you know that. :)
7:40 AM
@Lilienthal I currently have the problem that I do not know whether studying PhD will help me with my future career or not... I have the feeling that spending some year on PhD will put me out of my major market...
@EnthusiasticStudent Generally, you should only go for a PhD if your choice of career requires it (very, very few do) or if you want to continue in research or academia.
The reason is that 99% of people who delay their entry into the job market spend that time not earning or earning a great deal less than they would have been, end up starting on their work career later and most don't get a significantly higher salary because of their PhD.
As I understand it, in the US people with PhDs also have more trouble finding a job because of the "overqualified" concept as well as hiring managers considering it weird for people to spend all that time and money on a PhD program for the reasons I gave.
That last point seems to be less of an issue if you're in a country with significantly cheaper education like many in mainland Europe, at least in my experience.
But the other points remain.
This has been discussed previously on Academia though I can't seem to find it, I recommend asking there and they might be able to dig up the question.
It was something like "Should I go for a PhD if I don't want to continue in research"
In the end, if you would derive significant satisfaction from getting to do research then it's up to you to balance that against the loss in income and a shortened career.
Q: How does the process for applying for jobs look for a PhD?

Jack TwainI will finish my masters soon and I'm considering the idea of continuing with a PhD. My assumption is the process for job search after my PhD would be different, because I have a different and more specialized skillset. When applying for jobs after graduation: Should I look for junior positi...

This question is extremely relevant for you @EnthusiasticStudent
Q: Why do companies not want to hire over qualified people?

Kenneth .JI've heard stories of how people looking for jobs have been turned down by companies because they are over-qualified, even when they are willing to take a (sometime substantial) pay-cut. Why do companies not want to hire people who are over-qualified for the job? Wouldn't it make sense for a com...

A: Can a Ph.D. have a negative impact on your career in the software industry?

Telastyn Can a phd degree have a negative impact on your career in the industry? Absolutely. A stigma attached to PhD's (right or wrong) in software development is that they have trouble actually writing code. Much of the PhD path is mathematics and writing papers describing the mathematics, which (...

These are also useful reading. Look/ask on academia for questions from the academic perspective.
8:22 AM
@enderland Perhaps compared to before but it's still pretty barren compared to some sites like Arqade or even Academia :)
9:04 AM
Yes, I received a call from them. Told them about me being in a project, so they probably won't leave me before 3 months. They said, keep us in bcc this whole time, and its OK if they leave you after completing 3 months.
I have an offer mail, isn't it as good as a signed offer?
2 hours later…
10:38 AM
@user1502 In general, no. But whether that offer mail counts as a form of contract with legal value depends on your jurisdiction. In the US most employees don't have a contract but they do sign an offer letter as I understand it.
11:31 AM
@Lilienthal I am sorry that I am replying late, I was not at my desk. Thank you so much for the points you mentioned and the questions you conveyed here....
Thank you very much....
@EnthusiasticStudent Not a problem, we call it chat but it feels more like a play-by-email sometimes. And you're welcome, I hope you find some of the questions on this site (and Academia) useful in your decision.
One point I should add: consider talking to a "guidance counselor" or something similar. Most universities have them and they can generally explain pros and cons of doing a PhD.
Some countries also have similar services I think, though some only have those up to high school level.
@Lilienthal Not all the people kindly spend time to guide others... You are great... thanks.
@Lilienthal Probably I should spend some time reading those content and questions online
and spend some more time to decide over doing a phd or not
However, I think that having a masters degree, and MBA and Project Management Certificates, will give me enough career opportunities which doing PhD may put me out of the market for some years... I have the feeling that this is the right time to start working...
I really like doing PhD, specially it's Dr. title, but sometimes people should choose and leave their interests to build a better future for themselves...
1 hour later…
1:01 PM
@EnthusiasticStudent You raise good points, but as I mentioned only you can really judge what the best choice is when it comes to your career, education and personal happiness.
It's good to talk things like this over with family or close friends if you have them, I find that explaining options and my thinking on things helps me form a better idea of them even if the other person is only there to listen.
1:52 PM
A: How does the process for applying for jobs look for a PhD?

enderlandWhat jobs do they do? Most important thing to know All the below hinges on your PhD research/work being relevant and allowing you to add value to a company. Being super awesome at something that no one makes money off doesn't help you. Spending your 4-5 years of your PhD being a Teaching Assi...

@EnthusiasticStudent also this one:
Q: Why do people say you shouldn't do a PhD unless you want a career in research?

user40698I know a PhD is supposed to be an apprenticeship for future researchers. But what if you enjoy getting the PhD, but have no intention of doing research in the future? It seems like being a professor is really stressful and there is a lot of competition, and same thing for other sorts of non-gra...

A: worried that drug test didnt go well

Lilienthal should i be worried? Yes. I think urine a lot of trouble.

I'm sorry, I really am.
But I just couldn't resist.
2:22 PM
Q: Should the drugtest tag be killed?

SidneySo, there is a question posed recently concerning how an applicant may have messed up faking a drug test. The only other question under this tag is closed as off topic. Since there is very little advise we can give for positive drug test results, and the question will probably be very subjective ...

Q: worried that drug test didnt go well

sydneyMy grandma gave me her pee to put in a condom so i can pass my drug screen for work, the temperature of her pee was fine and what not, but while i was in the process i noticed there wasnt enough pee in the cup. it wasnt to the "line" idk why but i panicked and peed about half an inch in the cup. ...

needs closed please quickly
@Lilienthal I dont understand the piling on of the downvotes on the duplicates. Its not a bad question just a dupicate of a similar question
@Lilienthal Its sad to see how this user was treated. New users should be given a bit more rope than established users who should know how the system works and are just ignoring the rules. This is a situation where the community drove a new user away from SE because the user did not understand but attempted to ask some decent questions. Its sad if you ask me.
Especially since its not like these were questions on how to exploit the system or be a jerk. They were questions about how to do difficult things the right way
3:00 PM
Q: Shame on us! We must treat new users better!

Chadhttp://workplace.stackexchange.com/users/40274/jack-d-ripper This user was not attempting to ask bad questions or question on how to exploit or get around the system. He was asking questions about understanding how to negotiate some difficult situations. I see no reason for the excessive down ...

1 hour later…
4:23 PM
@Chad @Chad In my defense, I assumed it was a joke question, hence my joke answer (which I fully expected to be deleted). In hindsight I should have realised that all sorts of people find their way to this site and I should have resisted the temptation.
But to be entirely frank and honest, if the OP's situation was genuine, I'm not sure if the site would be better off for having him as a member. I realise that's a rather elitist remark and we should cut the "newbs" some slack but the behaviour demonstrated by that poster is so unethical, bizarre, and evidence of poor judgement that I feel I should point it out.
I think it might be worth bringing up on meta though, as a distinct topic from your current post on new users.
Though I feel compelled to point out that you also replied in jocular fashion to my joke answer, so perhaps we both suffered a temporary lapse in judgement. :)
@Lilienthal I think Chad was referring to the Jack D Ripper situation, not the drug test question.
@Lilienthal the one you asked was not a joke i dont think, but I wasnt meaning him. JackDRipper was a different user
Ack, screwed by the reply link again.
I assumed the second @ was in reply to the other question.
no that first one.,.. welll reap what you sow comes to mind
As for Jack though, I'm following MaskedMan and Joe impression that he was really just here to have people validate his misguided notions on how the workplace works.
I can't recall any users here being openly dismissive or hostile, but there were plenty of direct and blunt responses.
Seems like one such comment of mine was also deleted. :)
4:37 PM
Man we have like 50 of this question but none are really comprehensive and "easy" to point to - workplace.stackexchange.com/q/54085/2322
I guess my opinion is that if people demonstrate a lack of respect for both the site, our guidelines and rules, and our userbase along with a refusal to adjust their behaviour then there comes a point where you stop assuming good faith and the kid gloves come off.
Though the latter is more the domain of the moderators than the users who should just keep flagging, voting and commenting as they have been, even if those comments are in vain.
The Workplace does tend to be hostile to newbies at times, but Jack D Ripper's case is a strawman at best.
He has asked the same question several times, and some of his questions got closed as duplicates of his own questions.
@MaskedMan Indeed. I pointed out the same thing in my deleted comment.
If that isn't sufficient to know "how this site works", then there is very little we can do.
@enderland Could you put that on-hold until the user responds to follow-up comments?
If he has a valid reason then it's probably a duplicate of one of these:
Q: Fell ill - huge gap in time on resume - what do I do?

SE13013I'm having some troubles finding work. I'm a good, hard-working and honest worker who has a ton of experience in several areas. I won't list them, but I suspect that my issues with finding work are related to a 10 year break I took. From the moment I left school up until 2005, I had been through ...

Q: How do I explain being unemployed for nearly two years due to untreated depression

StevenFor the first three years of my career, was always employed. Then, after I got laid off because the last company I worked for went under, I couldn't motivate myself to look for work for one year and six months. This was due to untreated depression, which also made it very difficult to manage the...

4:41 PM
Q: Can I resign just after a week of start date? I feel overqualified with my job. Details below

Jack D. RipperI am recent science graduate. I am now employed with this insurance company just this week as a clerk in actuarial department. I thought through this, I can be promoted into a real actuary. This is the ONLY reason why I accepted the job in the first place. I asked my manager since I am not a math...

I guess you're way ahead of me @enderland :)
Look over here, he got a fair amount of useful advice, and he even thanks a couple of users.
Oh dear, I didn't even see that one.
That was the first question he asked here, not sure why he kept asking the same question over and over and then complained about "rude assholes".
A Superhero complex along with a need for validation perhaps?
Ordinarily I'd suggest getting to the bottom of his motivation in chat but at this point I kind of assume a mod would have already tried that.
4:45 PM
It is convenient to cherry-pick instances when people responded rudely, while ignoring all the helpful comments. That just makes one sound like a crybaby in addition to being a superhero with need for validation (whoa, this gets interesting!) :)
@Chad other than downvoting, I don't see a whole ton of ill will towards him
@enderland No one really tried to help him craft better questions either. The 3 off topic ones could have been fixed
@enderland Yeah, and that downvoting has been a problem affecting multiple users, not just him. There tends to be a lot of irresponsible downvoting here, it is one of my pet peeves on this site.
The commets are overly mean but they seem very snobby to me. you dont know our rules so you must leave
@Chad I just looked through all the questions he's asked and I really don't see that until the last couple
4:48 PM
what should I write in the resignation email
BTW it is not the job of the mods it is the job of the community. We all failed I cast a vote with out comment either
@Chad What question are you referring to? On his latest question, I see a bunch of comments asking why he wants to do this, and giving him advice on what else he should have done/should do, but nothing which sounds like, "leave this place, you don't know the rules". Perhaps I don't see some deleted comments there?
FWIW, I did not downvote his question, and my comment was genuinely intended to know why he wants to hide his resignation from the manager, since that might be relevant to his solution.
I cannot tell them in person because they are out of country
Q: Resignation letter: general tips and what to do if boss is not on site?

user26326Somewhat related: How to Deliver Resignation Letter To My Boss Who is Not Located on Site. At the company I work for, I have a boss (the president of the company) and a supervisor. Unlike the related question above, I do not have the option of contacting my boss other than via e-mail. The boss w...

Its not every comment but there are enough of them. I dont think the snubbing was necessiarily intentional but for someone who doesnt understand the rules it can fell like it
Its not you its me... I just dont find you attractive any more. Ohh wait thats how to break up over text.
4:53 PM
I don't see the reason/need for most of the downvotes. A lot of it looked more like "I'll keep rephrasing as new questions since I didn't like the answer/advice", which led to closing as duplicate of various existing questions.
@Chad My point is that at least on his latest question nobody told him "you don't know the rules of this site". All the comments were about his question. Unless you are referring to some other question, I don't see any "rude assholes" there.
I think there might be two separate things here, one is the general attitude towards newer folks and the other is specifically with Jack
FWIW, he isn't quite "done", he did come back to respond to the comments there after he updated his profile.
I'm wondering if there was partly a culture gap between questions/comments. Which would need help figuring out how to turn the question into something valid. Most of the comments were in line with clarifying the question, or providing partial advise to figure out where the question could go.
@JonathanLeech-Pepin The op seems like he was genuinely trying to work with the site and no one reached out with comments on how to make the question better but there seemed like plenty of you need to learn the rules comments
with out directly saying that
Comments are intended for improving quesitons. not for making snide comments(im as guilty as any probably) or discussion. We are using comments completely wrong since there is no or very little improvement comments and lots of discussion
4:56 PM
@user1502 what country are you in by the way? are you working for a contracting company or directly with your current company?
If you are expecting professional advice, then you should have written your question in standard written English, not unprofessional brv8shnz. — tchrist Aug 21 at 4:19
@enderland India, working directly with the company
but the CTO is in US right now
The above comment, which chastises OP for not using "standard English" has received 3 upvotes. That is a problem.
Granted that SE is an English site, but if people not well versed with English come along, the first reaction shouldn't be to chase them out of town with torches and spades.
All the advice I am reading in previous posts asks for a phone call
but I want to send an email, what should I exactly write?
@user1502 I am sorry, I have lost your question amidst all the Jack D Ripper drama. :D I looked through the chat history, and could only find "what should I write in the resignation mail?" Is that what you are referring to?
5:05 PM
@MaskedMan Definitely agreed. The original post was harder to read, but was edited to something more 'expected'.
@MaskedMan yes
Want I want is, request for the decrease in notice period from 3 months to end of this month
@user1502 I would leave the resignation email a standard resignation letter (indicating what is needed). If possible, I would try to reach out by telephone or video-conference to add any expanded information and/or request any changes to the standard
@user1502 No, no, no, no, no. Don't do that over email. That kind of thing should be done F2F, or if that is absolutely impossible, then over the phone.
can't do it over the phone either
It is "okay" to send an email confirming what was discussed, etc. after the conversation.
5:09 PM
Once you come to some sort of agreement or understanding, then reformulate that in an email "As per our discussion" or something of the sort to ensure the agreement is in writing (but already discussed verbally to avoid the back and forth.
Why not?
I am not on 'phone' terms with them
Do you report directly to the CTO?
@user1502 as in they dont want to talk to you or you dont want to talk to them
not directly, there has always been one person between us
@Chad I don't want to talk to them
5:11 PM
Then you should be reaching out to whoever you report to. If they suggest you bring it up to the CTO then do so.
Mail seems the right thing to do
Its quite complicated :|
@user1502 The anwer is despite what you want to do the right thing is to call them
@user1502 You are making it more complicated by avoiding talking to them.
you can do what ever you want
5:12 PM
@Chad well that might depend, @user1502 is in India and going above the chain of command like that (not sure what the relationship between @user1502 and the CTO is) might not be wise
@Chad I would have said right thing to do is talk to your supervisor/manager. If they cannot make the decision they will either a) reach out to someone who can or b) advise you who to reach out to.
Yes talk on the phone (if you can not do it in person) with your immediate supervisor
exactly that India thing, @enderland understood it, things are complicated here
give them the resignation
If that process really won't work, then reach out to HR as an intermediary
5:13 PM
@user1502 I don't get it, you send your resignation to your supervisor, right? Why can't you talk to them?
Did your immediate supervisor just leave @user1502? or what happened with that?
I was reporting to Person A who reported to the CTO, just a couple of days back, the the CTO's wife (who is a project manager) asked me to work on her project as there was less work.
@enderland @user1502 Not sure what "India thing" you guys are talking about. While escalation is not taken kindly, it is usually "okayish" if you have tried resolving the issue the best you could with your supervisor before going to the level above. I guess that's how it works in the US too?
@MaskedMan in the USA there is a much lower threshold for bypassing an authority
My immediate supervisor has always been like - take these issues to him, even for petty things like leaves, he wants me to ask him...
5:17 PM
@user1502 Are you expected to send your resignation to your supervisor or to "him" (whoever that "him" is)?
him is the CTO, yes
Be sure that is the official procedure. Your resignation could be considered "invalid" because you submitted it to the wrong person, that person being the CTO notwithstanding.
Don't go by what people tell you to do, do what you are expected to do.
If you want to be successful in the IT industry in India, you have to grow a very thick skin.
@user1502 is there an hr department you could contract to ensure you follow process?
there is 1 HR, and I am sure they will ask me to mail the CTO
@Chad @mhoran_psprep @JoeStrazzere if you guys want to cast a delete vote on this, that would be great... workplace.stackexchange.com/q/54075/2322
5:21 PM
basically its a very small company which is handled by this 1 person
and his wife
@enderland use your god powers and do it
thats why we voted you to have them
It's always easier if I can cast the last vote instead of the first ;)
@user1502 Then it is all the more important that you talk to the CTO about your situation. If you were resigning with the "normal" notice period, it would be fine to send an email.
But your case is different, you want a reduced notice period, which they are under no obligation to grant you.
yes, I understand that, but atleast I want to give it a try, can't find words to write in the mail
It won't work anyway, no matter what words you choose, so don't bother.
5:25 PM
@MaskedMan eh it depends, there's a lot of scenarios where that can be allowed and it's not really fair to say "it will never work" ;)
@MaskedMan And my experience (through SE) is that they are loath to issue relieving letter unless you fulfill your contract requirements
Anyway, it is up to you what you want to do. I don't mean to be demeaning, but I can only carry the horse to the pond. :)
@user1502 If you do it through mail(or email) you reduce your chances from almost none to 0. Its easier to say no in an email than to the person directly
just to refresh things up, this was me only, workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/52558/…
so the chances are high
@Chad Yeah, but the relieving letter scenario is not as horrible as the posts on SE suggest. India is also well known for its high attrition rate, which wouldn't be possible if getting the godddamned relieving letter was so hard.
There are a few dubious companies which use every tactic possible to cover up their mediocre management policies, the relieving letter being just one of them.
5:28 PM
@MaskedMan There are litterally millions of people out of work looking for a job. Poverty there makes poverty here look like luxury
India is truely a different world in effect
that should say 10s of millions
I wish I could continue that discussion, but it is time now to go to bed. :)
5:43 PM
only if the last line was bit more stronger.
6:39 PM
@MaskedMan India is very, very hierarchical when it comes to all facets of life and especially the workplace. The quirks of its caste system, even in "modern" companies, is an additional complication.
@MaskedMan As I recall the issue was not with his poor English skills but with his poor formatting and typing skills. He proceeded to defend himself by saying that he was typing on a phone while in the same breath accusing every commenter of being prejudiced and unprofessional(!) for requesting that he put some actual effort into his posts.
All SE sites that are not language-specific are English only by design and the expected standard is that users formulate their question to the best of their ability. By Jack's own admission his questions do not reach that standard.
I haven't seen a single user being treated condescendingly or dismissively for having a poor grasp of English but still trying his best to get his question out there so people can help out.
All those users have had people put in hard work in comments and edits to clarify the user's question and help him out, even if the question ends up being off-topic.
But when people vomit their thoughts into their phone and expect us to "just make sense of it because that's what you're here for" then I can see how people will react very bluntly.
And if those users persist with their behaviour and are seemingly making every effort to ignore well-meaning advice and endless pointers about site guidelines, duplicate question policies and topicality then it's only natural for some people to assume bad faith and react accordingly.
But I feel like I keep rehashing the same topic here, I recall bringing this up a few days ago when Jack first hit the scene as it were.
Ugh, I see the rationale behind SE not allowing the editing of comments after 5 minutes but it's bloody annoying. I usually end up deleting valid comments myself if I spot a typo. If I repost it I'd just be pinging the user again for no reason or messing up the comment chain. :|
7:25 PM
@Lilienthal Thats the thing. There were none of those type of comments. They were critical of the OP for not conforming with out informing the op of the guidelines. The posts may have been intended to help but many of them came across to me as trying to criticize.
I will concede that there is probably an above average chance that the op would not have been savable. But there is no attempt, and to me that is unacceptable, we have to do better. I include myself in that we
Site users aren't there to "save" users though, they have limited ways to communicate with them and there only real responsibility is to comment on questions to try to clarify intent and salvage a question if it can be saved.
All of Jack's questions were either off-topic or duplicates and the comments reflect as much.
They can be saved pretty easily(at least the off topic)
By definition they can't though.
I dont have any problem with the duplicate close its the avalanche of downvotes
I'm not seeing any really problematic comments, except for perhaps some that can now be taken out of context after Jack apparently went on a deletion spree and the mods pruned a number of others.
7:30 PM
duplicates are actually good things someone asked the question a little different and so the search engines have another way to find the right answer
they should not get downvoted to hell
I've said it before and I'll say it again but bluntness, directness and candidness should not be confused for condescension or ill intent.
And your point on duplicates is valid if the question is well-written and well-formatted.
Which was most certainly not the case for Jack's posts.
The policy is "BE Nice" not Be blunt, direct, or candid
The downvotes weren't constructive. But I suspect they were downvoting the attitude/repetition by the same user, rather than downvoting the question (which does not make it right in the slightest).
The mass downvotes (though I'm seeing less than 10 on most) were presumably because his questions were A) not useful, and B) showed a complete lack of effort on part of the OP
@JonathanLeech-Pepin which is a problem because you are not supposed to down vote users just their posts for content
7:33 PM
Which is what downvotes are intended for.
@Chad Which is exactly what happened.
@Chad Agreed. Although perhaps... this topic as a whole should reflect an example user other than Jack.
@Lilienthal I get it and it is a problem.
I think its the perfect example because there is no real attempt to help or BE NICE
Then you should bring that up with the root SE meta.
someone punching you in the nose is not an excuse for you to punch them back.
@Chad And please don't confuse being nice with avoiding telling bitter truths.
7:34 PM
You can do it nicely
But my point is that you don't need to.
That is the point of the policy
We're all adults here.
So the rules dont matter? Do you think you are president of the US?
Keep in mind, only you know whether you meant something to be nice or rude - the words communicate something regardless of your intent
7:36 PM
What is up with your wildly out-of-proportion analogies? Can you be nice please?
As for that policy, it has 3 main clauses and I don't see how the comments on Jack's post violated the letter or spirit of any of them.
thats in comments we can be mean in chat
It was an attempt to lighten the mood. See how it can backfire
@Lilienthal for a second I thought that was directed to me, and was confused, then I realized just now what you mean it to be in reply to ;)
@Chad If you look at his 3 non-negative questions: The comments were pushing towards making it constructive, pushing it towards a question that had a place. (I can't see deleted conversations in the comments so don't know if the pruned portions support that statement)
Closing them as off topic pending edits that would make them useable was valid, and correct. (I'm ignoring the downvoted ones since we've already established that there is an issue in those cases)
I get that because I have been here and know those are not the dark side of the comments. But they are far from the model of Be Nice
6 questions downvoted to hell and not a single pleasant sounding or even helpful sounding comment
@Chad I don't feel like the second half of this is true
7:40 PM
they all seemed very critical, with the exception of the few that just asked questions
Are you suggesting they had no right to be critical?
Q: Can I resign just after a week of start date? I feel overqualified with my job. Details below

Jack D. RipperI am recent science graduate. I am now employed with this insurance company just this week as a clerk in actuarial department. I thought through this, I can be promoted into a real actuary. This is the ONLY reason why I accepted the job in the first place. I asked my manager since I am not a math...

That is not one of the hell downvoted questions though
this question had a back/forth that was quite useful/helpful
I mean, let's just not beat around the bush here, his posts had numerous issues so it's only natural that comments would point those issues out.
7:43 PM
Which is fine but there is no suggestion on how to make them better just critical of the mistake
@JackD.Ripper - we can't advise on what to do, only give advice on what you are thinking of doing. e.g. you could resign and get another different job, resign and try and get the job you thought you were getting, get the job then resign, get the qualifications you need to progress etc. You need to think of what the options are, then we can feedback on them. — The Wandering Dev Manager Aug 19 at 12:24
the next one Jane edited 15 minutes after it was posted
Right, before we go further, here are all his questions including up and down-votes:
the next one was also edited, but a bit later, and closed without too much interaction - someone asked a question and he never responded to it, either
+0/-3 | How to go on interviews while on resignation period without offending my manager? [duplicate]
+4/-2 | Why do some companies not allow part time second jobs? [closed] [off-topic]
+2/-6 | Pro help: How to sneak out for an interview when I am still newly employed? [duplicate]
+4/-4 | HRs and Employers: Are the chances of telling that an interviewee can start working after a month low? Is one month too long for them? [closed] [off-topic]
+2/-6 | How to ethically resign after working less than a month? [duplicate] [off-topic]
I'm seeing a maximum of 6 downvotes. That does not qualify as "downvoting the hell out of" to me.
voting to close as off topic - "Rather than explaining why your situation is terrible, or why your boss/coworker makes you unhappy, explain what you want to do to make it better" — The Wandering Dev Manager Aug 19 at 10:36
There is no need for that comment... it shows in the close tally
and its not helpful as a comment
7:46 PM
Wandering Dev is notoriously brief in his comments. And it is helpful because it's a suggested approach.
I know there are a bunch of comments missing I cant see those
The system will even automatically add those comments.
but the sole semi helpful comment is the one that quotes the other close reason
Which I suspect may even be what happened there
That was not automatically added
7:46 PM
@enderland Does that match the standard automatic close comment?
only automatically adds them if you use a custom close reason
It does not read helpful it reads condecending to me
That is the standard "Flagging -> Closing -> Off-Topic -> point 3"
right but there was no need to comment it
@Chad the deleted comments there are neutral at worst, if not helpful (there are only a few)
Hey I am voting to close this because it reads like a rant to me. I dont know if that was the intent and if not could you edit the question to focus more on the question you want to ask and less on the bad parts of your situation
@enderland I believe it since im guessing they were Joe S
7:49 PM
Doesn't it automatically add the vote-to-close comment when using those custom ones? (So that it gives an indication of what would need to be done to improve it)
@JonathanLeech-Pepin yeah, it also auto adds the "potential duplicate" one
Only if you type in a custom message if you use the predefined ones it does not
or potential dup
I want to test on that specific reason, but would rather not false-flag a question and confuse whoever's question it is.
Since I thought at least some of those reasons were auto-added from the generic
Quoting the message they arlready see is not helpful explaining why you chose that and how to make it better is helpful no one did that on anyof them
@JonathanLeech-Pepin It doesn't add it on a flag, only on an actual vote.
7:51 PM
At least not that I see
I suspect here were some from Joe
I don't think you see anything if you have a close vote for a non-duplicate reason though (just see the close votes)
I think if you can get more detail if you try to self-close, though I don't think most new users see that
@enderland If you use the custom type in your own reason it does add a comment
@Chad yeah. but I think in that case the comment was added plus the normal close reason
Or just a repeat of the normal close reason so that it was in comment history
so without the comment, the OP would not have any feedback about the current CV
which is an annoying part of SE...
7:53 PM
@enderland yes the user wanted to point out that he was voting to close... something we all see because it says Close(2) in the links
@Chad but the OP doesn't
And if you click on close it shows you votes cast for which reason
@Chad I doubt many new folks know that
@enderland But with out more information it doesnt matter. The system is designed to hide that from low rep users so they dont feel ganged up on
@Chad Don't those only show up if you have the "vote close" privilege?
7:55 PM
Which is the intent until the question is closed then you see the reason
no matter your rep
@Lilienthal Are there any active close vote questions? I don't have enough Rep on workplace to vote
I can check if the reasons show up for every user
@JonathanLeech-Pepin Meta confirms (see above)
Q: Can I refuse to be on standby as an hourly employee?

greyfoxI work for a small IT consulting company that is privately owned. I am a software developer on a team of 7 people. Right now I am working typically between 9am and 6pm, just like everyone else on my team. Recently my manager has come up with the idea of having a rotating on call schedule comprise...

All I see on that one is: Share/Edit/Flag
7:56 PM
The OP also will not see those votes on his own question until 250 rep
So they serve both to inform the OP of a potential problem and to discourage other users from flagging I would imagine.
@Lilienthal no but when the question is closed then the op will see the reason
@Chad I guess this is a philosophical question then: is it better to not try to advise people their question is being close-voted, or is it better to do so prior to question closure?
At which point it's too late to react before the close goes through and he has to go through the reopen queue?
the whole intent is to hide that from new users so they do not get frustrated. There is no reason to post that comment other than to rub the op's nose in it IMO
Personally, I would rather know before it is closed so that I can improve it or clarify it.
7:58 PM
To be honest, it's starting to seem like you're trying to argue against a process that is ingrained in how StackExchange works globally. And this chat is not the place to have that argument.
You can always post a Helpful Comment on how to improve the question
In my view almost all those comments are helpful.
No I am arguing that we need to follow the provess
@JonathanLeech-Pepin I'm not sure for a new user. As a veteran user I get the system and want that information, but if I have no idea how things work... I can see where @Chad is coming from
My point is that everyone IS following the process.
Any comments that didn't would presumably have been deleted already.
7:59 PM
@Lilienthal Do you think those comments are Nice?
Perfectly nice. They point out the problems with the OP's post and suggest ways to improve it.
Do I think they're coming from a Magical Place of Happiness and Unicorns? No, nor should they.
Also just a general note, probably the best way to change a site culture in this regard is to be the change you want to see, too - comments are visible for everyone else, too
I feel like I've spent the past hour arguing what boils down to simple opinion.
And any further discussion should probably just be done on meta because I don't see this being resolved here.
I do not like the Be nice policy. I prefer a be snarky and rude at will. But that is not the rules
lol :P
8:03 PM
You believe that the comments Jack received were too critical and not nice enough. I believe that is not the case.
Unless you can point out repeated infractions of actual rules (and not just your interpretation of them) by multiple commenters on Jack's post then I'm just going to withdraw from this discussion as I see no further point in it.
And my dinner is getting cold. :)
I believe that SOMEONE should have posted using a more cordial and helpful method yes. Especially since curt and condecending was not productive in any of the other questions he posted either
@Lilienthal Thats my point. Its not that the rules are being egrariously broken. But everyone seems to be on the dark side rather than a balance of straight talk and nice and helpful
And I'm going to maintain that you're alone in your interpretation. (Closing chat for now)
it's important to note that people respect someone who takes a fall for a fellow employee as much or more than a run of the mill competent employee. This depends very, very, VERY greatly based on what region of the world you are in. If the OP is in India (as their profile suggests), this is absolutely not the case. — enderland ♦ 50 secs ago
I feel like I'm going to become the "Indian work culture is different" evangelist here lol
@enderland ROFL I know what you mean. I hate seeing comments and answers assuming that what is true in the US is true in India. They have no idea how much different of a world India is
I am still pissed about that walk away comment. I am going to leave and try to cool off.
9:08 PM
@Chad You realise that that deleted comment still showed up in my notifications right? I mentioned closing chat to save you the trouble of waiting for me to reply as I wanted to actually get on with watching my movie. My entire point was that our opinions differ so greatly on this matter that I didn't think there was any further merit in me arguing my side of it. Your comment just confirms that the previous hour was also a waste of my time.
You keep parading the "Be nice" policy around. I suggest you practice what you preach.
10:08 PM
Hey guys... I haven't read everything that's been going on in here, but one clarification: you should never assume that you have seen every communication with a user. "Nobody did X" is something you can never know. You can only say "I didn't see anybody do X". Remember that there are other chat rooms, some private; that comments get deleted; and that there are other channels.

« first day (1245 days earlier)      last day (1530 days later) »