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2:00 PM
thirdly, I had a thirdly in mind a few seconds ago, but it's gone
That's why all our questions are about software, I think it's for the same reasons
If anyone could make some nice Wikipedia-themed questions, I could answer a lot of those :D
@overactor I disagree with that. There is a lot of exciting thing going on in remix culture now - most of those are totally unrelated to software. I don't have any figures. but my impression is that there are a lot more CC-licensed projects around than FLOSS-licensed projects.
@FreeRadical My bad, I meant people who are on our site
In a sense, we've started this site out poorly in a way, we've had neutrality and then te scope additions. We didn't start out perfectly
2:03 PM
@Zizouz212 I think you see things too negatively
Sure we made some mistakes, but we were always going to make those
OK, my main work is the the Creative Commons crowd.
some things you can only figure out by doing
@FreeRadical You should ask some questions about that : )
I've suggested (on Meta) to change the name to "Free Culture" to broaden the scope, but that has received 8 downvotes.
2:06 PM
@FreeRadical I like that name
but I see the argument against it too
I do think we should get rid of our current name
What are the arguments against it. Our current name "Open Source" is saying load and clear that this site's only focus is software.
@FreeRadical Open Source is waay worse than open culture in my book
I think the problem with Free Culture is that it sounds like it's more specific than we would mean it.
What bugs me is that there is 8 downvotes without a single comment stating the reason.
People might feel like they're missing some associations
@FreeRadical I see your point, I upvoted by the way
I now site rules allows downvoting without saying way, but I its not helpful.
I know site rules allows downvoting without saying why, but I its not helpful.
(Typos corrected.)
2:11 PM
press the up arrow
@overactor - I regard Free Culture as a broad movement, where "culture" may refer to literary and artistic works, hardware, software, file formats, raw and processed data, etc.
@FreeRadical I do too, but not everyone has that association handy in their head
Sure, but people should think beyond that association handy in their head. They should think about how this site can be "marketed" to other people than themselves.
I suspect people associate Free Culture more with the culture around the free/open movement than with what it actually means
and at least 8 people on meta so strongly disliked it that they downvoted, which clearly means it doesn't conjure the right image for most. If that's already the case for those who make use of the site now, it will probably be stronger if the site gains more influx from outside sources (read: google)
@Martijn Well, to be frank, I wouldn't mind more activity with the focus on the culture aspect. I'm pretty tried of FLOSS licensing question by now.
2:22 PM
@Zizouz212 @FreeRadical will win, as I said before, my early reputation winning was only because of the easy seeding questions.
@Martijn, the 8 people who downvoted are of course entitled to do so, but there is really no discussion in that thread about what kind of image we want to project.
also: because of the high quality of your answers
@Zizouz212 We had a competition? I missed that :-)
@FreeRadical it's a difficult question and as you implied, it needs discussion
sadly SE doesn't do discussion well
@overactor Nope. The closest we get to discussion is chat.
2:25 PM
@FreeRadical what I think people might associate "free culture" with is "Why does RMS have a katana" or "What's the importance of beards in open source"
@FreeRadical I'm not sure about that, but I agree that there a lot of exciting stuff besides software. Cory Doctorow did a good job to promote CC in literature, there is some good stuff in music (and good remixing too, look at Tryad), there are a few free movies and so on
but offcourse, it's all guesswork
I say we need to balance an easily conveyed and recognisable name and something that accurately says what we are.
@Mnementh where is the love for Wikipedia. I suspect it's currently worlds best known work of free culture
Open Source is spot on when it comes to conveyability and recognisability
2:26 PM
OK, I may be to deeply ingrained into that particular ghetto to see what associations people get.
Free Culture is (imo) the closest we get to perfectly representing what we are about
but sadly seems to lack in the former category
@Martijn good point
@Martijn Yes, right, how could I forget that
To add, Open Street Map is open content too.
open content
that just barely misses what we are about too, right?
as a possible name
open content has, to me, a strong association with open data
which is very specific again
@overactor I disagree "Open Source" to me is about source code (i.e. software), and it about a particular philosophy about source code that not all programmers that cherish freedom share.
2:30 PM
@overactor Actually open content wasn't suggested in the meta-thread
My issue with "Free Culture" is that it's like "Open Source" for the site name. Creative Commons has something called "Free Culture", so it could spark something up again.
@Mnementh I know, I just figured it wouldn't be half bad
Sorry, my cousin started freaking out cause my aunt went to get groceries...
@FreeRadical What exactly do you disagree with?
Let me get on a darn laptop...
2:31 PM
I agree with your points by the way
@overactor There is also this, if I think about it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_content
Free content, libre content, or free information, is any kind of functional work, artwork, or other creative content that meets the definition of a free cultural work. A free cultural work is one which has no significant legal restriction on people's freedom: to use the content and benefit from using it, to study the content and apply what is learned, to make and distribute copies of the content, to change and improve the content and distribute these derivative works. Although there are a great many different definitions in regular everyday use, free content is legally very similar if not like...
@Mnementh that brings up the free as in beer problem again though
Nope - it is true that CC uses a "Free Culture"-seal, but it doesn't originate with CC. It is only used for CC licenses that qualify as "free" according to the FSF definition of "free" (i.e. CC BY, and CC BY-SA).
@FreeRadical where exactly lies your problem with Free & Open SE ?
Off the top of my head: it's a bit of a cop out.
It's a little unclear.
Might be issue with open source folks...
2:36 PM
@Zizouz212 As in Open Source folks might not like it?
@overactor I diagree with this: "Open Source is spot on when it comes to conveyability and recognisability". It is too narrow (software only), and too partisan (OSI philosophy aligned). People who are not software people or not-OSI people would not recognize a site bearing that name as their site.
@FreeRadical Oh, I agree with that
I didn't mean to say it's spot on all round
I suppose I expressed myself a bit poorly.
@overactor Free & Open what? I think this is too unspecific for our site. "Free & Open SE" could be about free stuff (including beer), free and open speech, transparency in government, the great outdoors, etc.
@FreeRadical There are some implications that limit it a bit though.
By putting Open next to Free
we sort of eliminate the gratis problem
And people are more likely to think of Free Software and Open Source, which points them in the right direction
And people are more likely to think of Free Software and Open Source, which points them in the wrong direction if we're serious about having a broader scope than software.
2:41 PM
I don't think "open speech" is an association anyone is going to make
Maybe not, but "free speech & open government" perhaps.
@FreeRadical In my opinion, the beauty is that the purposeful omission of the words "source" and "software" tells people something.
Namely that we don't focus on software
Well, I guess Stack Overflow isn't just for people who have stacks of papers which just seem to "overflow" :P
@Zizouz212 Either that or exclusively about dealing with stackoverflows in programming.
Can I ask a "paper overflowing handling issue question" there?
2:45 PM
@Zizouz212 go ask that question
"Stack Overflow" is a great pun that any programmer (which is the audience of that site) will instantly recognise. It is almost as great a pun as "Open source, not doors" (which has been downvoted as community ad).
I think find a common issue, a common fun fact that each thing has and name the site to be just that, similar to SO
@FreeRadical do you mean "Open source, not windows?"
even better IMO as "Open source (not windows)"
I think we might have the most difficult scope of any site on the SE network
It's difficult to define, explain
and to top it all off
2:48 PM
No, that one was downvoted by a user polite enough to state the reason "hostile towards Microsoft" - so I am OK with that. I just don't understand why the one about keeping draught out of the lab was downvoted.
a political minefield
@FreeRadical I left that comment, I didn't downvote though
I didn't see open source not doors yet
I'm contemplating an upvote
My issue with it is that opening doors is supposed to be a good thing
But God
I love your design and I love the pun
Well, it is there and it is downvoted. And opening doors is not a good think if it is cold and windy outside.
Open doors to open source?
@Martijn I have one on that theme as well: "Open source open doors". That one as not been downvoted (yet).
@FreeRadical Open source, not doors (physically that is, metaphorically opening doors is encouraged and exactly what you'll achieve by opening source) (because it's quite chilly outside)
2:53 PM
I just upvoted it @FreeRadical
it is a very very good add
There has to be a way to make the "open source not X" one work
what can you open that isn't good?
do you have the source for that image @FreeRadical?
I think it might work out nicely if the door itself were an opened book.
The open doors image? Yes (it is a composite of several images, the door, the wall, the field, the sky and the sun are all different images).
Open source, not pandora's box
That's no good, right?
got an xcf file for that or anything?
2:59 PM
Open source, not beers
@Martijn. Good idea. I just need to create the book image. Any particular book that have sort of Free Culture significance. Lessig's "Free Culture" perhaps?
well, if it's opened, you are probably not able to see what it is, so IMO it doesn't matter much (but it would be a nice touch)
but just using the cover of "Free Culture" might be nice as well
@Martijn I'm a Photoshop addict I'm afraid (yup it is closed source, but Gimp is just useless, with anti-aliasing from hell).
I'm not much of a graphical artist, so I don't know what would work out better
@overactor loon at this:
Q: Where can I ask a question related to paper management?

Zizouz212I am currently managing a non-profit project? I have a large amount of documents in paper format. Where can I ask a question concerning the organization of stacks of paper that seemingly "overflow". I would ask on Stack Overflow but I doubt I can go there... :P In essence, where can I ask questi...

3:01 PM
@FreeRadical I'm glad I'm not alone
I'd love to love Gimp
but I cannot get into it
What have I missed?
I see people expanding on my "open doors" idea :D
We're trying to improve on possible community ads
@Zizouz212 It's a good one
Open source, not files?
I've seen a few ads based on my concept. By the way, I'm pretty good at graphic design. :)
Open source, open minds
maybe something with quotes? Lessig's "A free culture has been our past, but it will only be our future if we change the path we are on right now." feels nice to me
3:06 PM
@overactor there is an answer on that question!!!!
Would replacing the view through the open door (currently a plush field, symbolizing richdom) with the cover of Lessig's book improve it? I am unsure.
Post any idea you have :) there's no such thing as a bad ad, even if it is promoting open source through unicorns :)
@FreeRadical I'm not sure. I like the open door leading to a "whole new world" that it conveys to me now
Working on a project with millions of others isn't normal.
But on Open Source it is.
Open Source, not even once.
The Lessig quote is a wall of text. We've only got 220x250 px. What a about the artwork? Lessig loves white courier on black. That's a font that requires a lot of room.
3:12 PM
I've got to get going
I'm loving the ideas being tossed around here
I'll toy with them on my way home
@Martijn Thanks, the "whole new world" interpretation hadn't even occurred to me.
I don't think there are many (any?) projects that literally millions of people have worked on (other than, again, wikipedia)
I believe Drupal is one of the largest single project distros. It has (as of today) 95 356 contributors. Large distributions made up of several projects (such as Debian) may have more accumulated contributors.
3:59 PM
me three hours ago: "fun fun fun, work with IP addresses, fiddle with bitmasks and shifts"
me now: "aawgwweaaaaaaasglh"
4:30 PM
@Martijn lol, sounds like you are having loads if fun :D
2 hours later…
6:06 PM
@Martijn I was thinking of wikipedia
He said "(other than, again, wikipedia)" :P
6:23 PM
@Martijn Can be useful but maybe premature. Keep in mind that it's perfectly normal to have some overlap, i.e. questions that are on-topic on both sides. It's generally a bad idea to say “let's make X off-topic on site A because it's on-topic on site B”. X is off-topic on A because it's too far from the focus of A or it isn't appropriate for the community on A.
Example: SF movies are equally on-topic on Movies & TV and Science Fiction & Fantasy
Example: questions about Ubuntu and about elementary OS are on-topic on Unix & Linux, regardless of the existence of Ask Ubuntu and elementary OS
This doesn't preclude advising certain types of questions to go one way or the other, e.g. questions about the fidelity of a book adaptation are more Science Fiction & Fantasy than Movies & TV
or questions about the command line on Unix & Linux, questions about the default GUI on elementary OS/Ask Ubuntu
Here, if you want an answer from a lawyer who might not know anything about software, go to Law, if you want an answer from a programmer who might not know anything about the law, go to Open Source
6:41 PM
@Gilles I'm not talking about making anything off-topic on either end, and I wouldn't support that at all. But when a question is being closed as off-topic, offering an alternative site where it may be on topic seems rather unobjectionable
6:58 PM
@Martijn Oh, ok. Sorry, I read a bit too quickly.
Indeed offering an alternative is nice, as long as you're reasonably confident that the question is good for the other site
And for that, a meta thread can help
I'll set one up as soon as I'm done answering questions
@Gilles That's always going to be difficult of course
because yay, new blood \o/
e.g. “What questions about X are on-topic on this site and how to ask them”
like on Software Recommendations we point everybody to meta.softwarerecs.stackexchange.com/questions/336/… , but in some cases a topic-specific thread is good
Typically, off-topic questions are still bad questions on another SE site
7:06 PM
Q: Off topic exchange with opensource.stackexchange

MartijnI'm a regular contributor to the beta of opensource.stackexchange, and we semi-regularly have questions which we close as off-topic because they are about copyright in general and don't really pertain to open source. When we close them off-topic, it would be nice to be able to offer an alternati...

3 hours later…
9:58 PM
@overactor get paint.net - similar features, easier to use
Hi!!!!!!!! :)
Guys, three up votes... meta.stackexchange.com/questions/261582/where-can-i-ask-a-question-related-to-pa‌​per-management
1 hour later…
11:22 PM
Q: Tag merge request: derived-works, derivatives, derivative-works

MartijnIt seems the tags derived-works, derivatives and derivative-works are all used for the same thing. Should the former two be superseded with the latter? Should either of the first two be retained as redirects, or should they just be burniated?

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