@ChristianHupfer It is a man. The Rebecca Riots took place between 1839 and 1843 in certain areas of Wales. 'Rebecca' led the rioters who dressed in women's clothing. The government sent in troops etc. to apprehend the rioters and bring them to trial. Hence the shackles. But the troops were extremely ineffective and the riots were not quelled by force but by concessions on the part of the government and other factors which improved people's lives.

@cfr Never heard of those Rebecca Riots before. Thanks for information!

@ChristianHupfer They don't teach Welsh history in school. Not even in Wales. At least, they certainly didn't and what I've heard suggests they still don't.

@ChristianHupfer And I don't have money to go. :(

@ChristianHupfer The BBC says this page is archived and no longer updated. Why do they tell you that for pages on history?

@PauloCereda :( Me neither.

@cfr :(

@cfr: That's sad and wrong, of course. I can remember history lessons here that all were very proud that the local Black Forest army played a crucial part in the German Revolution of 1848/1849 (well, it wasn't a success at all :-( )

@PauloCereda Well, it would be very expensive for you, of course. For me it's only a train ticket for about 100 euro (in addition to meeting fee and hotel), but the obstacle is my duty as teacher :-((((((

@ChristianHupfer Can't you take a field trip?

@ChristianHupfer Actually, they didn't teach us much British history at all. Not from the time when we were going around invading people's countries (or being invaded by other bits of... well, actually, it was all rather mysterious why there were these different countries in one. Maybe the idea that bits of you successfully invaded some other bits, failed at invading still other bits so united with them,before all the bits finally got together to invade other people's bits...

... well, you can see why talking about Roman Baths and the Battle of Hastings seemed attractive. Other people invading 'us' (never mind who 'us' is exactly - sshhh!) is just so much simpler...

@ChristianHupfer As far as my school history went, this is the history of the world: Stone Age -> Stone Circles (& Romans) -> Battle of Hastings & Magna Carter -> Richard -> Elizabeth I -> First World War, Russian Revolution -> Treaty of Versailles -> Weimar Republic, Great Depression in Wales and US (only) -> Nazi Germany, USSR -> Second World War (Europe only) -> Partition of India, Cold War

No explanation was ever offered for our involvement in partitioning India. I suppose we just happened to be in the area when the locals started a bit of bother and, being jolly nice chaps, thought we'd give them a hand. I expect England, Scotland, Wales and - well some of Ireland - were just off holidaying there because we all got on so fantastically well. The other bit of Ireland? Probably just found India too hot.

@PauloCereda Would have made about as much sense, to be honest. What were we doing in India? Did Elizabeth's Book of Common Prayer cause the First World War directly? What did everyone do between the end of the sixteenth century and the end of the nineteenth?

@cfr They tried to understand cricket? :) I am terrible at history (Brazil was a colony until 1822).

@PauloCereda I'm awful at history. I hope they didn't try to understand cricket. Surely, if they had, somebody would have taken pity on us and sunk our island?

@cfr Oh no!

@PauloCereda Why? The ducks would have had it!

@cfr ooh that's true!

@clemens You should add a penalty (\nobreak) before the \hskip in your answer about hyphenation (latex-community.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=26465).

@DavidCarlisle Tried your demo file: all fine

@DavidCarlisle Was woken at 4.30 this morning by something going on in a neighbouring flat. Didn't get up until a bit later but have spent a productive time sweeping over TL to see what we have to cover.

@DavidCarlisle Custom whatsits needed by luatexja

@DavidCarlisle Only the ID part of custom whatsits seems to be picked up by others

@JosephWright in the end it seemed to work with the original unedited luaotfload, although probably better to have a version of that that directly access latex table rather than making a shim luatexbase one, but this way at least it allows people to have some test documents before then.

@DavidCarlisle I'm still working out how we handle that: the problem is that luaotfload has to work with plain

@UlrikeFischer thanks!

@JosephWright doesn't have to be the same file, especially as it is mechanically constructed from context. (plain xetex's \newXeTeXintercharclass doesn't (now) share any code with the latex version). Or could adjust the plain version to load ltluatex, it depends a bit if they want to accept any changes in plain's interface, it's probably easier to sell interface changes in a latex update headlining luatex support

@DavidCarlisle Sure, just needs some thought

@JosephWright I think it's basically their call: if we fork luaotfload and leave luatexbase/luaotfload working as is for plain then luatexbase has to be maintained in same way, if instead plain also uses ltluatex/luaotfload then the existing luatexbase doesn't have to be maintened. Actually in that latter case it would probably make sense to call the thing luatexbase and use a luatexbase rather than latex lua table...

@DavidCarlisle It's essential we don't fragment the Lua font loading situation any more than it already is

@DavidCarlisle If it comes down to forking luaoftload or doing nothing at all, I'll take the latter

@JosephWright but if forking is a matter of arranging with them that the makefile that makes luaotfload generates luatotfload.ltx for latex and luaotfload.sty (or .def or whatever) for plain it isn't much of a fork in practice, or given how few parts of it assume luatexbase, just arrange that those parts are not in the core file. or ....

@DavidCarlisle Oh, you mean from one source: that's different

@JosephWright I wasn't offering to hand maintain that lua code, but running sed over it to use your module declaration syntax instead of luatexbase's seems doable, and probably better than writing a tex shim emulation that has to stay in latex forever

@JosephWright yeh! we're authorised to use \insert:-)

@DavidCarlisle I'm probably going to work on the compat layer stuff over the weekend

@DavidCarlisle Still not sure about the module declaration stuff: I see why they've used a single table

@DavidCarlisle Ah, just got that mail

@DavidCarlisle gist.github.com/TobiasBouma/de4fa02c4e7fa12141ca and gist.github.com/TobiasBouma/798444f698dd637cafa2

@DavidCarlisle Your answer is really nice, it's just that I manage to even screw up that situation. haha

If that numbering could somehow be extended to do the position-based thing, we're done. If that's even possible...

@DavidCarlisle Could we not do this via a pull request to luatexbase and some adjustments there?

@JosephWright perhaps (probably need to do that anyway) but for luatexbase probably thing to do is just not load it from latex, so main thing is luaotfload I think.

@DavidCarlisle Perhaps

@DavidCarlisle I need to work carefully over the TL tree once we have this firmed up

@DavidCarlisle I think they'll be happy to adjust provided we do the work :-)

Wow, doing a TL update. latex, pdftex, plain, tetex ... what did i miss the last few days?

@DavidCarlisle tug.org/svn/texlive?view=revision&revision=37819

@Johannes_B Nothing obvious in SVN

@JosephWright memoir update, KOMA update (of course)

Everything gets an update.

@Johannes_B Most of these are my fault :-)

@JosephWright the etex stuff?

@Johannes_B Yes

@ChristianHupfer date?

@Johannes_B: Just arrived five minutes ago :D

@ChristianHupfer But not printed ;-)

@ChristianHupfer Cool

@ChristianHupfer Looks very much like my copy

@Johannes_B Printed? It's printed, well, not a hard cover :-(

@Johannes_B And instead of complaining, you should slip into your Gundar The Template Destroyer Suit and hunt down wrong templates, for example this one:

@JosephWright I've stolen it from your book shelves :-P

@JosephWright ohh:-)

@ChristianHupfer Which version is it?

@Johannes_B Sounds like an autogenerated reply-message :-P

@ChristianHupfer My brains worked in autopilot-mode. Often the case with templates.

@Johannes_B The inlay says: "Incorporates corrections known in 2011", printed in 2013

@JosephWright that diff looks a little short, must be more somewhere:-)

@ChristianHupfer Oh, so a recent one. How much did you pay for it?

@Johannes_B @Johannes_B: Very expensive, compared to the LaTeX manual (3 Euro ;-)). 46 Euro... The back cover says it costs $49.99, so this is expensive in the US too.

@JosephWright etex.sty updated and addlines and memoir no longer use it after tlmgr update :-)

@ChristianHupfer Fair price i would say for a well printed book.

@DavidCarlisle Sorry, it's the one before that has the payload

@JosephWright yes I looked around, found it:-)

@DavidCarlisle tug.org/svn/texlive/trunk/Build/source/texk/web2c/lib/…

@JosephWright thanks

@DavidCarlisle I guess I need to see if it actually works :-)

@DavidCarlisle Bruno will be disappointed: he was working on doing it in e-TeX primitives (and finding that it's a PITA)

@JosephWright I was going to say same, especially as we found with \char/\string the xetex sources are very fragile around utf16 encoding of characters above FFFF

@DavidCarlisle Yup

@JosephWright ah I see mail now "volatile" :-)

@DavidCarlisle Also need to check what LuaTeX does here: Lua emulation anyway but ...

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@clemens I am scared of that twitter stuff. Why are people favouriting my comments? Is this something like a Yeah, have read it-notice?

I don't like the sound of Overleaf is following me. Get off my back.

@Johannes_B: Never used Overlord Overleaf

@ChristianHupfer I did many times. Quite useful, as it is integrated with the sites by stefan, quick click and test support possible.

@DavidCarlisle LuaTeX and pdfTeX give same results for MD5 sums when I put in some none-8-bit input, so Heiko's obviously got the byte-based stuff right

@Johannes_B that's it feature they added a few years ago. It's pretty much the same as liking on facebook adding the stars here in chat

@Johannes_B that's just what it's called :)

@clemens If it is a like, then it is used to often. I got emails that overleaf and john hammersley starred my post and are following me. Four (4) mails at once.

@Johannes_B yeah, I had that, too. But usually it happens to less than once a month

@clemens Klingt beruhigend.

@clemens Another question: Is there a chance for me to see the whole discussion tree for your initial template story tweet?

@Johannes_B you can turn off the email notifications: twitter.com/settings/notifications

@clemens thanks.

@Johannes_B I have no idea

@clemens I wonder how many twitter users don't have a smart phone.

@Johannes_B the tweet page probably is the easiest way: twitter.com/LaTeX_Chemistry/status/619135236560039937

@clemens btw, a further thing to standardize would be a file naming convention. I very very much want to get people away from using Literatur.bib.

@clemens Oh, that view is useful. Just seen that my comment is full of typos.

@DavidCarlisle If the MD5 plan works out then I've already got a talk for TUG2016!

@clemens Email raus: bretschneidernet.de/tips/thesislatex.html Anfrage auf mögliche Updates.

@JosephWright And I can't even attend TUG2016!

@PauloCereda Probably I can't either :-|

@PauloCereda Of course, location still a mystery: tug.org/tug2016

@JosephWright Oh no!

@JosephWright: Probably in Bolton or in Notlob ;-)

@ChristianHupfer You never know your luck

@PaulGessler: Hello

@ChristianHupfer yo'! :-) Good afternoon to you.

I'm on the bua;ldlkfjmpy jumddskpy bus right now

@PaulGessler: Looks like your skydiving and trying to type :-P Early in the morning at your place, I assume? ;-)

@ChristianHupfer yes, but I got a bit late start this morning. Bicycle troubles... :-)

@PaulGessler: You need

@ChristianHupfer :D

Hi there, please look on my following MWE. Is this mis-spacing in front of the brackets a known feature? For the auto-version, I knew that. But I am surprised to see differences on the left side of the others. Could someone point me to some reference?

@Johannes_B never saw that page before…

@LaRiFaRi there is no space between the = and the [ other than \thickmuskip due to = being a \mathrel

...\hbox(50.55038+45.55038)x26.38887, shifted 159.30557, display
....\vbox(50.55038+45.55038)x26.38887
.....\hbox(8.39996+3.60004)x26.38887
......\glue(\tabskip) 0.0
......\hbox(8.39996+3.60004)x26.38887, glue set 1.85558fil
.......\rule(8.39996+3.60004)x0.0
.......\glue 5.0
.......\mathon
.......\OT1/cmr/m/n/10 =
.......\glue(\thickmuskip) 2.77771 plus 2.77771
.......\hbox(7.5+2.5)x3.97778
........\hbox(7.5+2.5)x2.77779
.........\OT1/cmr/m/n/10 [
........\hbox(0.0+0.0)x1.2, shifted -2.5
.......\mathoff

@LaRiFaRi easier to use \showoutput than newfangled visual methods:-) ^^^^

@clemens once, but it was before i decided to take measures.

@DavidCarlisle Is \thickmuskip something stetchable?

I do see different spaces here.

Regarding \showoutput. Do not know that yet. Will have a look. But new visual methods (with colors)... come on, can't be that bad :-)

@DavidCarlisle In your output, I think it is thie \hbox(17.50014+12.50015)x5.83336 which is changing for every version. It gets bigger each time.

@LaRiFaRi yes that's just tall brackets are wider with wider sidebearings than small ones, so it's just whatever the font says. (thickmuskip does stretch/shrink but not here inside an array it will be natural size.

Ok, so the feature/bug/whatever, is with Latin Modern.

Thanks for your help.

@LaRiFaRi font design more "whatever" than feature or bug I think, try it with other fonts, what do you get?

@DavidCarlisle Glad to hear that my % arara: lualatex was worth something at last

Checking right now

@DavidCarlisle XITS: interestingly v1 is another bracket than the others. 2-3 almost no skip. 3-4 no skip, 4-5 small skip

@DavidCarlisle Asana: All 5 the same type and skip.

qed for what you have stated

@DavidCarlisle Other fonts not available at the moment. But ok. That's interesting. I did not know that LM is doing this.

The fact, that XITS is so inconsistent seems strange though.

@LaRiFaRi @barbarabeeton ^^

@LaRiFaRi stix/xits has a few issues, stix2 is under development. but that has issues too, people are working on it... :-)

England are leading by 149 runs.

@WillRobertson ^^ :-)

@DavidCarlisle wooo

@DavidCarlisle is barbara into STIX somehow? Should I report this? The inconsistency here seems really like a bug. Equally increasing space like in LM or no increasing space like in Asana, but not something in between, I guess.

@LaRiFaRi barbara is Queen of STIX:-) stix1 is frozen now but as I say stix 2 fonts are in development (I may try your test files with stix2 later) If you want to report it for stix1 anyway there is a sourceforge site (the issues should be checked for stix2 before that is finished) sourceforge.net/p/stixfonts/tracking

Hello to all. It's okay that in my .bib file I have `PUBLISHER={Transl. Math. Monographs}', that is, can I just use dots like this, or???

@Cortizol For most styles PUBLISHER is taken as is, so what you write is what you get.

@Cortizol If you're asking about sentence-ending spaces vs. inter-word spaces, I think it's the latter, though I'm not 100% sure.

When you think about it, multiple sentences in publisher makes zero sense.

@DavidCarlisle Yes please check this, would be nice. I see also different spacing if mathtools is loaded or not.

@DavidCarlisle Very strange.

Hey y'all

I am trying to transparent the borders $\LaTeX$ is putting on my image

@Gigili What borders? Do you mean LaTeX as the compiler? Or is that some math command I do not know?

@Gigili There should be no borders if there is no \fbox or alike around your \includefigures

@Gigili latex doesn't make any images or put any borders around them? If you are generating images from latex and want transparent backgrounds you need to look at whatever is generating the image, imagemagic convert probably, which has options to make any specified colour transparaent

@LaRiFaRi As compiler , XeLaTeX to be exact

@Gigili still, without an MWE it's really impossible to diagnose the issue

@Gigili your question is still completely not understandable:-) what are you trying to produce, from what input?

@LaRiFaRi I followed the instructions in an answer to this question

@Gigili And the code you are using is...?

@DavidCarlisle Ah yes, a minimal document is needed

Hang on please

:)

@Gigili and how could anyone have guessed that:-) So the question is completely unrelated to latex, just that you have an image with a border in the image and you want to remove that border.

@clemens May i ask you to rename mygreen and co to cngreen or something similar? mychemistry.eu/2013/09/documents-with-style

hmmm

something must be wrong

@Gigili graphicx missing. guessing

@clemens Clicking the LaTeX tag gives the impression, that the twitter search is not case-sensitive.

@LaRiFaRi That did work

Thank you

Thank you everyone, especially @LaRiFaRi :P

@Gigili you have \fbox around the image so it will have a border naturally. (That is all fbox does)

Right

@Gigili that was easy :-) Glad I could help. fbox stands for framebox... It was more meant as a joke, but I guessed right. Great.

@DavidCarlisle I reported it. I am not sure if it is just STIX messing around here. Maybe a bit unicode-math, maybe mathtools. I dunno. Well, I will let smarter people take a look on that.

@LaRiFaRi OK thanks

(smarter than me... just to be clear)

@DavidCarlisle and sorry, I reported it with super fancy visual-debug. Will look on show output later...

@LaRiFaRi Yes, LaTeX is easy if you have enough time to play around

@Johannes_B oh! forgot to change them – done

@Johannes_B :)

@Gigili no, not that easy. Don't you worry. But for frequent users it would be kind of funny to advice them to delete an \fbox when they see an unwanted frame around something.

@Gigili Learning LaTeX can be quite steep, but keep on. It's worth a lot.

@Gigili as I said the other day reading at least a page of general introduction will save you lots of time in the end. The question you found and the trimming you added are totally unrelated. Any latex tutorial will tell you about \fbox within a page or two. (@LaRiFaRi is more forgiving, this time:-)

@DavidCarlisle Yes you told me before, and that's why I started reading en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX

Claiming the question and my problem to be unrelated is a bit... odd to me

They both were about the image borders

And I have a TeX document which I am trying to edit/change based on my own needs

@Gigili I recommend a more reliable source: dickimaw-books.com/latex/novices/index.html

This makes things a bit complicated and rather different from when I write a new document

That's why I didn't spot the \fbox earlier and I thought that was a frame LaTeX adds

@Johannes_B Oh thank you

@Gigili I guess that's a good start. If you want to learn with our Site here (that's how I do and did), you should always get your snippets somewhere around here and reduce as much as you can. You see a problem, delete one line. You see it still, delete the next one.... a.s.o. Somewhen, you will see there is one line left and you have no idea what the first command \fbox is. Then you search this on TeX.SX and voila. One thing more you know.

@Gigili they are absolutely unrelated, in one case someone was including an image and they wanted to omit the edge of the image as it had a border, the border was in the image and would be seen by any image application. In your case tex is drawing a box around something with fbox and the fact that there was an image in the middle is not really relevant, it could have been \fbox{abc}

This is my approach. Works fine. Nice side effect. If you really get stuck, you allready have you minimal working example at hand and can post it in a new question.

@LaRiFaRi I told a user once to save everything as pdf if possible, because the quality is better. User complained later, that LaTeX puts a lot of white space. I asked how whe had done the pdf and got: I scanned the journal article, cut the picture with paint, imported it to Word and saved as pdf, just like you suggested. I am a bad teacher.

@DavidCarlisle Both are about image borders, disregarding what causes it to appear

@Johannes_B oh that's rich

@LaRiFaRi Very helpful

@SeanAllred I wasn't specific enough, i didn't explain the limits. It really is my fault.

@Johannes_B uh, if your story was just about paint, it would already hurt... :-)

@LaRiFaRi I am just noticing, that i pinged you instead of @David.

@LaRiFaRi I am a pinta user. Using gimp to crop a screenshot and add an occasional box is just too much and i cannot do it.

@Johannes_B doesn't matter. Interesting story for me too...

@Johannes_B I have snagit and try to screen shot everything

@Johannes_B Image-Processing is not my favorite metier.

@Johannes_B Still, I often see that students will make things much more complicated than they really are.

The idea of 'this is way too complicated to be the right way -- is there a better approach' doesn't seem to be inborn.

@SeanAllred A few days back we said that users have a it should just work-attitude. Is it applying here to? Searching two days for a list of symbols, not realizing that everything they need is a list or tabular.

@Johannes_B I'm not sure I follow

@Sean I saw a document, where every paragraph ended with \bigbreak and empty line and a \noindent. I couldn't really complain.

@Johannes_B Ah, the old 'computer typewriter' approach :) "I couldn't really complain" I know the feeling

@SeanAllred Me neither ;-) A german user presented a solution going around acronym package, omitting an argument and swapping it to a new location.

@SeanAllred Proper paragraphs, not one single instance of a double backslash.

@Johannes_B oh lovely XD

@Johannes_B "It's good. Not great, but good."

Progress, at least :)

@SeanAllred The user had the Diplomarbeit of his supervisor as an example and blindly trusted the coding. <- Template-confusion

@Johannes_B Do I ever know that rage...

:-)

A little over a year ago (or two? they're blurring together), I received the algebra exam from my instructor. She also provided the TeX source as a reference for students (who had been given no proper introduction to anything related to TeX).

I had never seen a more paralyzingly distressing concoction of Plain and LaTeX before or since.

I spent the first hour redoing the document.

@SeanAllred That's why, when I help students setup their projects, thesis etc (or clean them to be exact), I call that research into what not to recommend.

@SeanAllred -- "LaTeXicon" -- a nice new word. maybe we should try to compile one. too bad you won't be in darmstadt. (just catching up on a huge chat backlog.)

@barbarabeeton :) And how I wish I could have made it (to either, really -- the one last year was right here in the States). They both came at the wrong time for me, money-wise -- plane tickets across the atlantic are expensive!!

Makes me think we should hold more regular get-togethers over Google Hangouts or something like that.

@SeanAllred or stackexchange chat?

@DavidCarlisle It will never catch on. :)

@DavidCarlisle There's a lot of information that doesn't come through via text

@DavidCarlisle Although... maybe it would be a good idea to set up a room just to talk about LaTeX development

@SeanAllred ^^^ you can draw pictures

@DavidCarlisle another picture masterpiece? :)

@SeanAllred no @PauloCereda's favourite: paint

:)

@DavidCarlisle ooh

I'm thinking about setting up a local TeX and Friends meetup (via meetup.com) -- does anyone have suggestions on how this would work?

@SeanAllred Looking for Latex (sic) fanatics will gather some wackier people than only macro expanders. :)

not setting up meetup.com, but you know -- what to do when you get there

@PauloCereda *shudders*

@SeanAllred Isn't that what mailing lists are for?

@Johannes_B I've had a bit of discussion with @JosephWright about this a while ago

I am for Hangouts.

I still think that mailing lists -- while familiar -- are clunky

It's far harder to 'have fun' on a mailing list -- and TeX development has always been fun for me. Once it loses that and becomes too 'professional', it's not quite as interesting.

@PauloCereda <3 you and me, Paulo :)

@SeanAllred No meetups in or around my hometown.

@SeanAllred <3

@SeanAllred hangouts, conferences, chat (to a certain extent) etc all have the problem that they involve synchronous communication, email is much better for a global discussion when you have people in Europe, the Americas, Thailand, Australia....

@SeanAllred Agreed, somehow. But it is better archived. All that template discussion recently is splattered in this chat room, another TeX.SX chat room, twitter, facebook, private conversations on facebook that only the participants and NSA know about, .... Discussion is chaotic. I don't like chaos to come to a reasonable conclusion.

@DavidCarlisle True, the discussion we're after is asynchronous which poses a few 'problems', but they're not difficult to overcome.

@Johannes_B No matter what medium you choose for discussion, you will always leave people out.

@DavidCarlisle ˙ɐᴉlɐɹʇsn∀ uᴉ sʞloɟ ɹoɟ pǝʇɹǝʌuᴉ ǝq plnoɥs ɐɹǝɯɐɔ 'osl∀

That's a fact of life, unfortunately :/

@PauloCereda I applaud your desire to be inclusive :)

@SeanAllred Of course. but i lost track completely by now.

@SeanAllred I'd bring chaos to Darmstadt if I manage to go. :) I was gonna bring a camcorder and my duck puppet. :)

@Johannes_B At least in the context of this chat, I definitely see what you're saying. We talk about so many things here. It's a misc room. A dedicated room would help -- it wouldn't solve the problem completely, but it would help.

@PauloCereda That there deserves a GoFundMe

@SeanAllred uh-oh. :)

@DavidCarlisle ⓘⓝ ⓒⓗⓐⓣ ⓦⓔ ⓒⓞⓤⓛⓓ ⓗⓐⓥⓔ ⓣⓗⓘⓢ ⓙⓔⓦⓔⓛ

@SeanAllred Concentrating on one issue, agreed. But that would mean localized to SE and i want any discussion about this as open as possible.

@DavidCarlisle @Johannes_B Going back to my point about necessarily leaving people out, that applies to email as well.

It took me years to become comfortable with sending a list mail. I'm still shaky with it, to be honest -- and I can't keep track of anything that comes in email.

That's almost certainly because I don't use the right tools, but my point stands, I think :/

@SeanAllred I see your point, a mailing list or newsgroup is more formal/serious than our very informal quack chat room.

@Johannes_B And it's much easier to just throw ideas around.

@barbarabeeton Such a 'LaTeXicon' might be appropriate for the wiki section of github.com/vermiculus/texample

@SeanAllred Exactly, but for the latex-project, especially the L3 stuff, thre are other dedicated places.

@Johannes_B As far as I can see, much of the L3 discussion is closed to 'outsiders'

(Aside from what gets thrown about in LaTeX-L)

@SeanAllred And here :-)

@Johannes_B ;)

@SeanAllred People left out. That's just how it is.

@SeanAllred ? I've sent (literally) thousands of those things, how hard can sending emails be?

@Johannes_B Exactly

@DavidCarlisle Figuring out the list model, getting all set up, learning what happens when you click 'send', etc. took a long time. Actually sending the email was obviously a piece of cake.

@SeanAllred sometimes, but mostly it's that there is no discussion, not that people are excluded. There is no private code repository for example.

@DavidCarlisle but in software development, the discussion is the most important part

as I'm sure you're aware

@SeanAllred I never realised you had to do those things:-) I thought you just sent emails as you would for a person:-)

\text{people excluded from discussion} \implies \text{people excluded from project}

@DavidCarlisle For the newer generations, it's a very foreign concept.

It was honestly very scary. Do the wrong thing -> make a fool of yourself.

To be honest, the secret's out now and I just don't care if people discover I'm a fool :)

But the apprehension was there

Is there, to some extent

@SeanAllred Nobody is perfect and learning is a part of life. I have made a fool of myself many times. Some times on purpose ;-)

@Johannes_B But that's a life lesson not everyone has learned :)

It takes a long time to learn to laugh.

@SeanAllred My goal would be to keep the discussion as open as possible. I guess it will be just as scary for some users to join the chat. Especially non-english speakers.

This is a chat and i know i make mistakes typing and i never proof read. this is a chat.

But somebody not familiar with the english language might not join, because the speed of discussion is fast and sometimes hard to follow.

@Johannes_B Maybe... maybe it could take a two-pronged approach

Really, n-pronged

Quack

@SeanAllred assuming there is a discussion to which anyone's been excluded, but also basically it is a project by invitation. The core code has not traditionally (or in fact ever) routinely taken code from people not in the project (ie without write access to the whole thing) It's same in many other open source projects, being open source doesn't necessarily mean having open access to development process.

@SeanAllred There really is an active user on main reading here sometimes amused but i think has never joined so far. Hallo Elke wink :-)

@DavidCarlisle And I understand the need for that, but I still think there should be a level of transparency

In SE terms (not saying it should move to SE -- that would be bad), a gallery chatroom

@Johannes_B Oh that's creepy :)

Anyway, it might be worthwhile to summarize l3 topics discussed elsewhere and compile them to send to latex-l

we have a similar system at work

@SeanAllred L3 twitter :-)

@Johannes_B haha -- well, I feel it might be hard to have a meaningful conversation 140c at a time :)

@SeanAllred Agreed. That is almost annoying.

@Johannes_B Although I've long been a fan of reddit-style communication

Just maybe not properly associated with reddit these days ;)

@SeanAllred I don't even know what that is and i am scared of it.

@Johannes_B reddit? It's not that bad

The situational irony here is not lost on me.

@Johannes_B e.g. redd.it/3crpsj

@SeanAllred By the way, i joined TeX.SX quite late, i didn't know how the format works. It is just the same as your fear of mails.

@Johannes_B Of course

@SeanAllred Clicking on it, i really can't follow the system.

I think though that the fewer moving parts there are, the better the system is. SE certainly doesn't fall into this category, but neither do mailing lists, in my opinion.

@Johannes_B In short, somebody posted a new topic (in this case a link with a poster-provided title) and others post comments and replies to comments.

These comments are voted up/down (similar to SE, but much more freely) in terms of usefulness/agreement

@Johannes_B Click the [-]

(There are keyboard commands for all of these, of course, but for simplicity's sake...)

@SeanAllred Is hack.chat - A simple web chat with LaTeX rendering (hack.chat) the question?

or topic.

@Johannes_B The topic, yes

@Johannes_B cf the 'front page' reddit.com/r/LaTeX

@SeanAllred Seems a bit messy. As a janitor, i like to keep the place tidy.

@Johannes_B In what way?

for the record, each 'subreddit' (such as /r/LaTeX) also has an FAQ and a wiki

And sometimes you get gold like this :)

redd.it/382tkw

@SeanAllred The i am not used to it and it is scary kind of way ;-)

@Johannes_B Certainly you have a more substantial thought than that :) I can think of several ways it could be messy.

But a lot of that has to do with reddit's style -- it was developed as a crowd-sourced news and discussion site. Topics were necessarily transient.

@Johannes_B e.g. subtopics are unorganized (questions/tools/sites/articles/bragging/*etc.*)

@SeanAllred Very short comments, but tree like. If the comments were a bit longer and substatial, i would prefer the tree like stuff over a classical forum.

@SeanAllred Unorganized, exactely.

@Johannes_B Just like SE sites, each community is different :) cf reddit.com/r/WritingPrompts

@Johannes_B Which is where I would personally use new 'subreddits' -- e.g., LaTeX3 development would be in /r/latex3

i am thirsty

@SeanAllred How likely would be the attraction to spammers and trolls?

@Johannes_B Minimal, and there are moderation tools

@Johannes_B You can even set the subreddit to be readonly for others

@Johannes_B Mods can be messaged for permission to post

@SeanAllred Interesting.

(You can even go so far as to make the entire subreddit private, but I think that defeats the idea I'm going for)

@SeanAllred I think I'd prefer the mailing list:-)

@DavidCarlisle And to each their own -- like I said, new content from a subreddit could be curated for the mailing list

> I think I'd prefer LaTeX 2.09:-)

@SeanAllred Do you use a reference manager?

@Johannes_B Just BibTeX and RefTeX/emacs

But for most things I just org-capture

@ChristianHupfer -- inflation. the (most recent) copy on my bookshelf (21st printing, july 1992; that sits next to the first spiral-bound edition) has a slip in it saying "list price $35; exhibit price $32" (leftover from an ams meeting; hard to justify getting newer editions provided here). if i remember rightly, the price for the hardcover edition at that time was about what the current price seems to be for the spiral version.

@SeanAllred in the example bibliography in the texample project, you have month=nov, year=1974 and issue_date = {Nov. 1974}.

@Johannes_B I almost certainly copied that reference from somewhere, and the last commit on that was before I really understood how bibtex worked :)