He replied with this:

I find it entirely nonconstructive that people quote verses willy nilly like this.

I replied:

> So are you going to try to participate further or not?

I was really tempted to critique his use of those verses and quote a few of my own, but then I remembered this gem:

@fredsbend I typically scroll past such stand-alone verse quotes on Facebook. I'd be more interested if you said something in conjunction...

I think I'm going to start a trend of quoting the more odd verses.

> At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.

Or maybe this one:

> The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel. (He was the firstborn, but because he defiled his father’s bed his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph son of Israel, so that he is not enrolled in the genealogy according to the birthright

Wow. Deep. I mean, it doesn't get better than that.

Well, it can get worse...

Oh, sure, there's a whole host of grotesque verses I could quote from the OT.

> Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, “Come now, let me sleep with you.”

But here, I want to go for that superfluous style. The verses that literally have no meaning without context.

> Jesus wept.

:P

@El'endiaStarman The OT version of "Ah, hey baby."

Click the tongue, bounce the eyebrows.

wink

Ha, indeed.

Oh, out-of-context goodness.

> When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb.

(From the same chapter, same book.)

It's nearly utterly pointless.

> Moses did as the Lord commanded him. He took Joshua and had him stand before Eleazar the priest and the whole assembly.

This sounds like a fun idea.

Post irrelevant verses to Facebook and say nothing else!

Yeah, when ever you see in on FB you can do this and then be like, I love quoting verse then not explaining them.

Or I'll comment with "This is a good verse too: <unrelated, irrelevant verse>."

I bet, with some creativity, you can just make them up.

> Then Jabel went up the Hazor mountain and prayed to the Lord. There he worshiped and sacrificed a ram.

@fredsbend Hezekiah 4:21. One of my favorites!

@El'endiaStarman Yeah, just like that. There no verse 21 ;)

@fredsbend There isn't even a book named Hezekiah. That's the name of a king.

Hence the winky face

> ;)

lol

Ah-ha, lol.

Oooh...Hezekiah was a good king. Use the name of a bad king to greater effect!

And there are many of those to choose from!

Maybe a little too meta.

I think I'm going to remove my agnostic disposition from my profile. TRiG warned me that many Christians forgo the current conversation and move into preacher time as soon as they learn you are not Christian.

I think that kind of happened here with this David guy.

Ah, yeah, perhaps.

@El'endiaStarman Okay, how's this?

@fredsbend Looks good.

slactivist, Left Behind Classic Fridays, No. 35: ‘Nice people finish last’.

@TRiG so much truth, there's a whole book in the bible addressing this....named one of my kids after it

@fredsbend "and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud"

Peace be with you

@LCIII Enlightening. Confirmed some things that I've been saying for a while.

@LCIII It's nice because it scientific. Apathetic to any morality about the issue. Just the facts about what it does.

Preachers are typically far more concerned with guilting young men from porn, but it will never work.

Like he said in the TED talk, the only symptom that addicts pay attention to is their growing inability to carry on in real sex (i.e. achieve and maintain an erection).

Like I mentioned previously, it became a whole lot easier to quit once I decided God and morality weren't going to help me and noticed that sex was getting better the longer I abstained.

Now there's this elephant in the room: What if you're not married and can't morally have sex?

Well, Paul suggests that you get married then. Pretty easy conclusion, but I don't think that is necessarily the best one.

Certainly do not start fornicating with every girl you meet. That's almost just as bad as porn, as far as addiction can go.

However, I do think that perhaps the extremely staunch approach to sex found in American Christian ethics is fueling young men's struggle with porn.

I hesitate to say it because I think sex is best reserved for a committed relationship, but the societal pull for people to get their live set up, go to college, get a job, then only think about marriage is at odds with the Christian ethics and the biological urge to mate.

This leaves young men with over ten years of peak sexual activity and no one so share it with. That is certainly not healthy.

Men 16 to 30 should be having sex regularly with a woman they love. That is healthy and normal.

So I'm tending toward an ethic that doesn't stress that you must be married before having sex or it is a very grave evil.

But I very much stress that sex should be reserved for committed relationships.

@TRiG Since you're here, I think waiting for some message from God is more paralyzing than thinking your skirting salvation by grace.

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with that type of Christian, but I've never met a Christian that said anything like "I didn't do it because I'm saved by grace."

Instead, I usually see something like "I waited for the spirit to tell me what to do, but then nothing happened so I didn't do anything."

@fredsbend It's not something I've come across in real life, but I have seen it online. Not many Calvinists around my part of Ireland.

Oh, that was another thing. Maybe my historical theology needs a brush up, but I think Luther should be credited with the salvation by grace thing. And I mean the kind where you can keep sinning because it doesn't really matter.

I thought there was a question on the site about Luther saying "Sin and sin boldly."

Can't find it though.

Here's the likely source of the quote: iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

@fredsbend Yes. Luther is the one with that credit, many believe he took it too far (he was in favor of extricating James from the canon completely)

@waxeagle You have a reformed theology, no? That's why you agreed with TRiG's link drop?

Basically, Luther was being incredibly reactionary, later reformers walked many of his conclusions on works back significantly because they realized he went too far

@fredsbend aye, PCA

Can you expand on it for me? How does a fear of thinking you are working for salvation keep you from doing good things?

@fredsbend It's more of a mindset than a fear. It's a "I'm saved, sin doesn't matter anymore" kind of attitude. Whereas the idea of James is that not sinning/doing good works is a product of salvation

but it's easy for a mindset to turn into a fear "am I doing this because I think I'm somehow working to earn my salvation"

which can lead to a Christian living like a heathen for fear that doing anything else would lead to them feeling like they were trying to earn their salvation (or doing nothing...)

Strange.

I think it's far more common for the first, than the second. Though folks who are used to a guilt mentality feel more comfortable feeling guilt than freedom and so swing that way. If that makes sense

@waxeagle It does. There's a name for it, but I can't remember.

@fredsbend Puberty at 12-14, then what does the church say? "wait for marriage" which is good and true, but then about that they say, "Wait until you're older graduated from college and successful enough to support a wife, then marry" When will that happen, 25, 26, ... 28? So they tell young men to abstain from all sex until 15 or so years after puberty! I agree that this is a problem. Let them marry young and stay married.

@Andrew the problem stems from the fact that the church also hates divorce (Because God does), which puts them in a huge catch22 because couples that marry young divorce more often

@waxeagle That's why I said, "and stay married." I think these things are both symptoms, and not the root of the problem.

oh the root of the problem hasn't changed in several millennia

@MattGutting Found you! DMT is a very powerful hallucinogen, like psilocybin, mescaline, or LSD. At that, it's at the "more powerful" end of the spectrum. Perhaps it is possible for a person to do these things soberly and wisely, and many studies have shown that occasional use does encourage health, probably because of the incredibly profound and honest introspection that many people undergo when taking these hallucinogens...

@MattGutting @Grasper ...however, I would caution any Christian that to put something like this in your body is opening yourself up to some very powerful and ungodly influences. I think because of the type of substance, the Catholic Church would indeed call it a drug, as it is a hallucinogen, and so for the Catholics it is proscribed.

@waxeagle Perhaps I agree. How many millenia do you suppose?

@Andrew way more than 2 :P

presumably at least 10, but I'm very flexible on the high end

@waxeagle lol I wasn't sure exactly which problem you were talking about. On the subject we were discussing, it was not but a generation or two past that young husbands were as common as old wives? Is that ancient problem more apparent now? That is, is the Church becoming more fleshly?

@Andrew doubtful. though sins are somewhat cyclical I think.

but Paul was addressing exactly what you're saying. if you struggle with lust, get married

(though he says it's better not to...because end times)

but he also says that's his advice

(so take what you will on the inspiration there)

(unless I'm misremembering the passage)

ah no, I'm misremembering, different part he said was his advice not the lord's

@fredsbend Let's see: "The word of the LORD came to me: Do not come to the teraphim, for I have delivered them into each others' power." (Based on Ezekiel 34:1, Amos 5:5a, Zechariah 11:6b)

@Andrew I tend to agree now that you have a description (though I wouldn't necessarily use the word ungodly in its literal sense); I didn't know for the answer.

@fredsbend I think a lack of support and openness about the topic of struggling with porn is what makes it tough for young men to resist it. The only thing I ever heard about porn growing up is that it was bad bad bad (which it is). But still I would indulge in it. I thought I was the only christian kid on the planet that struggled with it.

Then when I was 19 I told my parents, and they were shocked/embarrassed that they never talked to me about it. Then I started a little "accountability group" with some friends, and it turns out we all struggled with it. Then I learned that damn near every man I knew, christian or not, was indulging in or struggling to resist porn.

We decided that the topic of porn addiction had to stop being such a taboo. Let's be open about it! Most young men sitting in churches every week are addicted to masturbating to pornography. We need to treat it like the widespread thing it is. There shouldn't be an age where this off-topic.

And at the same time, we need to treat the cause, not the symptom. Addiction to porn is a symptom of something greater. We're not after behavior control (though that would be what we're after for very very little kids that don't know better).

I AM RANTINNNGGGGGG

I was talking to a guy at a sister church of ours in Des Moines who has twin 5-year-old boys and he says he does what he calls "porn drills"

Something to the effect of "OK. If anyone shows you on their phone or tablet a picture of someone's private parts you tell them to stop and you walk away and find mommy or daddy."

It's SOOOO much easier for kids nowadays to find porn than it was even for us. It's a whole new battlefield for parents that want to train their kids to confront porn correctly. Because it's not longer a matter of if kids will come across it, but when they do.

@LCIII "Addiction to porn is a symptom of something greater." ...which is ...?

@MattGutting I certainly meant ungodly in its literal sense, even if just the substance of a man's heart itself... there is something about these substances that dredges the heart, which is why they have been pursued for therapeutic applications by psychologists. But this can be deadly for the person recreationally experimenting, for "out of the heart come evil thoughts..."

@MattGutting These substances tend to dig up what it is in the depths of the heart and push it into the forefront of the attention of the person, who is significantly altered at that time. This is a reason why so many people have horrible experiences with them.

@Grasper So even people who mean well and just want to explore can open themselves up to the ungodly influences of their own flesh and its ideas about the world, and can misunderstand. Many people who have consumed DMT talk about meeting spirits and aliens and receiving teachings and information from them and that sort of thing, but of course this is all in their mind. So it can lead people into error. It's definitely not something to mess around with.

@fredsbend I agree quite a bit with what you said after this message. My perspective is that marriages and weddings have been conflated. For most couples, they occur at the same time. However, I'd say they're not the same because the marriage is the covenant and the promise of commitment, and the wedding is the celebration and the legal formalities.

If so, then a man and a woman could, if it makes good sense, marry by committing wholeheartedly and genuinely to each other, and then later have the wedding celebration.

Now, add to this the idea that sex is the most intimate physical act you can do, and that it literally (or figuratively) joins the participants into one person. This develops a bond, and to break that deep, intimate bond is a tragedy. I think that a great deal of the issues that arise from a divorce are because of this broken/shattered bond, and it applies to adultery too - making a bond with another instead of strengthening the one you already have.

Add to this that the average age at which people get married is rising, while the average age at which people cohabit, or live together, is staying basically the same.

Human biology will lead people to have sex with each other, pretty much regardless of surrounding cultural norms.

Yeah, it's pretty much a grand Catch 22. Don't marry too early/fast, don't wait too long... And because of biology, having sex earlier is generally better for the health of the children (you get more problems the older the woman gets), but having children before you graduate and get a job is a bad idea...

It's pretty much a big mess. And THEN you add in morality. Maybe it's really no wonder that porn is such a big problem. It's a (seemingly) consequence-free act that satisfies one's sexual urges...

@LCIII Likewise! I didn't necessarily think I was the only Christian kid on the planet that had the problem, but certainly the only one among my friends. And being such a good Christian in all other areas made it worse. Went to church, youth group, VBS, volunteered for VBS, didn't cuss, didn't drink or smoke, read Christian books, etc...aaand sinned every night with porn/lustful thoughts.

@LCIII That's definitely a good one. I shared it to Facebook.

@Andrew Your obvious response of a question is surprisingly deeper than I thought

Like a lot of sin, masturbating to porn is something that feels physically good for a bit but leaves a giant gaping wound in the soul.

My pastor says something about drugs "Don't tell kids not to do drugs because drugs aren't fun. Drugs are lots of fun! Tell kids not to do drugs because it will leave them spiritually empty and void and eventually very broken."

I think a similar thing can be said of pornography

@LCIII I would actually rather say "Don't do drugs because there are lots of things that are so much better."

theguardian.com/culture/2014/nov/01/ethical-porn-fair-trade-sex

Of course, a lot of discussion about porn ignores the fact that gay porn exists.

@TRiG That would be great, sure. Safer work for them. Doesn't really change the fact that the porn epidemic is doing a great deal of harm to the young populace. You don't even have to bring morality into it - just point out the economic impact and/or the dearth of people using their strengths and talents to contribute to society more.

@LCIII If you're going to convince boys and young men to do or not do something you need to relate it to sex and/or sports. "Do do porn because it will make you worse at sex." and "Don't do drugs because they will make you worse at sports."

@TRiG I think the chemical responses in the brain are the same, whether you are gay or not. If you find it pleasing and wank to it, it's all the same.

@El'endiaStarman There are all sorts of discussions to be had around porn, but a fair few issues often get conflated. Is it abusive for the actual actors? Does it depict something abusive, and if so, to what extent is that a problem? (I've heard that the majority of straight porn depicts and normalizes power disparities. Of course, "broke straight boys" stuff is hardly better.) What effects does viewing sex have on the developing brain? These are all separate questions, and not the only ones.

@fredsbend Well, most of the porn I consume is written: erotic fiction.

@LCIII I don't think that's true either though. There are a lot of people that do all sorts of drugs in moderation and enjoy full and happy spiritual lives and relationships. Temperance is key, same as with alcohol, and just like alcohol, people without temperance should abstain, no matter what their age is, and young people should abstain in general. The main deterrent for me when I was young was that drugs are illegal and where I live you can't get student loans with a drug related arrest.

@Andrew Two punishments for one crime?

@TRiG apparently. It's one of those things, like felons losing their right to vote and own firearms. Students with a drug arrest can't get loans for school. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…