English Language Learners

Anonymous

12:35 AM

We tried to keep two rooms open on Japanese.SE, but one of them ended up being neglected, and it didn't seem like there was much point in unfreezing it every 14 days when no one used it, so now we're back to one room

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Okay, how about we go with "teasing"? :-)

Anonymous

By the way, I'm impressed with the gibberish you come up with.

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Yeah, as I assume you know, many words have multiple senses, and each sense can have not only its own meaning but its own grammatical requirements, collocations, etc.

Anonymous

And if we look at a good dictionary:

Anonymous

oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/learner/proof

Anonymous

12:48 AM

We should see each sense listed as count or non-count

Anonymous

And we find:

Anonymous

> These results are a further proof of his outstanding ability.

Anonymous

Look at that! Sense one is listed as both count and non-count

Anonymous

I do agree with you that it's usually non-count

Anonymous

But it's sometimes used the other way, too.

Anonymous

12:56 AM

@JimReynolds As for whether it's a difference between BrE and AmE, let's take a look at this graph: goo.gl/yDtbrs

Anonymous

Anonymous

Some examples of a further proof use the mathematical sense, but most do not

Anonymous

We find this particular phrase is more common in BrE, but it's been on the decline in both BrE and AmE

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Hello! I'm on my computer now.

Anonymous

1:08 AM

Let's take a look.

Anonymous

If we treat this as the reduction of two sentences with one clause each:

Anonymous

> Policyholders can often redeem whole life polices early.
> Policyholders can use the policies as collateral for loans.

Anonymous

That's what your graph implies.

Anonymous

But I think this is a more likely interpretation:

Anonymous

> Policyholders can often redeem whole life polices early.
> Policyholders can often use the policies as collateral for loans.

Anonymous

1:11 AM

If we treat this as a coordination of verb phrases:

Anonymous

> Policyholders can often [ redeem whole life policies early ] or [ use the policies as collateral for loans ]

Anonymous

I moved often outside the first coordinate

Anonymous

Besides that, your graph is a pretty good attempt, although I would say the policies as collateral for loans is not a noun phrase (or any kind of constituent)

Anonymous

The policies is a noun phrase, but as collateral for loans is a separate argument of the verb use

Anonymous

There are lots of ways to draw a syntax tree. Yours mostly shows what types of words or phrases you've got in the sentence. That's fine, although it might also be instructive to pay attention to what function each constituent has.

Anonymous

1:26 AM

@Man_From_India Do you have a particular textbook you're working through, by the way? What made you decide to start drawing syntax trees?

Man_From_India

2:59 AM

@snailboat Thanks for explaining it nicely. I saw a question recently awarded a bounty. I ignored it initially, but later noticed that long back I made some comments, without explaining much. I was not sure how to answer it. Then suddenly it occurred to me what if I start making syntax trees. The idea of syntax tree probably wound not have come to my mind unless I few weeks back consulted A Comprehensive Grammar of English Language for adverbial chapter.

I didn't read this book thoroughly, but noticed it's second chapter dealt with some basic constituents and such syntax trees. So I though it's a good idea to start making trees for those sentences OP in that question quoted. It will be a good learning for me as well, as I have never done syntax tree before or never gave it much thought.

So I read it's second chapter where it dealt with syntax tree and started making trees :-) Thanks again for helping as always.

Here is that bounty question that I was talking about -

1

Q: Are these "for + nouns" adjectival prepositional phrases or adverbial prepositional ones?

Consider: Some "for + nouns" are adjectival prepositional phrases; others are adverbial prepositional ones, but I am not sure which is which in these following examples: The pension plans involve very little risk for employers. A bank creates a reserve for loan losses. How do invest...

Anonymous

3:30 AM

@Man_From_India Thanks, it helps to know which framework you're working in :-)

Man_From_India

Just noticed CGEL also deals with such things in first two chapters. But as I don't have a hard copy of this book, it's hard to read from pdfs :-(

that book is too costly here :-(

It shows trees in different format, I mean adding their functions along with their constituents.

ELL's Cabin

ELL's Cabin

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