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Double AA
Double AA
1:46 AM
4
Q: Any practical tips for leaning when seated in an armless dinning-room chair?

Yehuda WWe are supposed to lean while drinking the 4 cups and eating the matza at the Seders, but I find it hard to do that while sitting in an armless dining room chair. Likewise, I have not been able to secure a pillow on such a chair. How do others deal with this little practical challenge? Any hel...

passover-seder-hagada how-to eating standing-sitting
This question bothers me as the answers aren't citing halachic basis for their practice, and indeed some of the methods of leaning cited seem questionable.
Generally, how-to questions should present a halachic ruling and ask how to implement it. Here it seems no ruling on what constitutes leaning is being worked with.
 
 
3 hours later…
msh210
msh210
5:12 AM
@Scimonster ... or, better yet, convert to a comment on the question.
 
 
6 hours later…
Scimonster
Scimonster
11:37 AM
@msh210 But that can only be done by mods, whereas deletion can be done by 3 20k users, or 6 2k users from the VLQQ.
 
 
1 hour later…
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
12:57 PM
@DoubleAA Most observant Jews have probably never assumed that there are Halachic parameters to this leaning. The POV of the question is perfectly reasonable: I know I'm supposed to lean to the left, and I want practical advice on how to do it. If it gets answers that are contrary to Halacha, they deserve to be impeached on that basis. ...
... Even if a how-to question cites a source for whatever core requirement it's about, it's unlikely to cite sources of all of the details of that requirement, and there's no ab initio way to prevent answers from getting one of those details wrong. It's their job to be consistent with Halacha, not the question's job to explicitly set out the corpus of all relevant Halachot.
... comments like "Has a rabbi approved this practice?" could be helpful in getting an answerer to second-guess their response, but if there's a specific detail of Halacha that you believe an answer is violating, it'd be much more helpful to spell it out. In many cases, the mental answer to the former question will be "No, but what do I need a rabbi for? Everyone leans like this." However, if challenged with a specific Halachic objection, answerers are more likely to qualify, change, or ...
... delete their answers, and voters, editors, and readers are similarly more likely to take the Halachic objection into account.
 
Mefaresh
Mefaresh
1:47 PM
@IsaacMoses in your estimation have I addressed the question correctly?

http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/56379/5514
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@Mefaresh Looks like it addresses the question directly with on-point sources. Adding translations of the Hebrew sources would make them more accessible, but your paraphrases of their relevant points are enough to get by.
 
Mefaresh
Mefaresh
@IsaacMoses thank you. If you feel a nedivas Lev ;) you can feel free to translate as you see fit
@IsaacMoses regarding the view count of questions what is the algorithm that it uses. Does it count repeat views of a User? Or only unique views
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@Mefaresh It attempts to represent unique views and apparently does so conservatively, so the actual number of people who have seen the post is probably somewhat higher. The details of the algorithm are not public, I believe.
 
Mefaresh
Mefaresh
@IsaacMoses agree with my sentiments? judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/56475/…
@IsaacMoses thank you
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
2:12 PM
@Mefaresh Responded there.
 
Mefaresh
Mefaresh
Deleted comment @IsaacMoses
 
 
3 hours later…
Double AA
Double AA
5:19 PM
@IsaacMoses how-to should be clear what halachic considerations they want accounted for. If someone doesn't know what considerations he should be accounting for he should [ask on Mi Yodeya for background and then] ask his rabbi., and then ask the how-to question here.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA How should a person know what he doesn't know? Who, who's seen people leaning every year for his whole life, would even think to ask a shaila about what constitutes leaning?
3
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
@DoubleAA In an ideal world, perhaps, but as it stands, many (most?) of our how-to questions don't outline the halachic principles.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA to ask this question properly, would one have to first become an expert in the laws of hair-covering?
@DoubleAA To ask this question properly, would one have to first become an expert in the laws of kashrut on Pesach and hashgacha, and then start with "I am interested in observing the laws of not eating or owning chametz on Pesach (OC ##:##-##), taking into account the fact that chametz isn't batel on Pesach (YD ##:##) and our general tendency toward chumra on Pesach (I"M OC #:##), plus the standards hashagacha requires for trustworthiness (Teshuvot Ha*** ###). ..."
 
Double AA
Double AA
5:34 PM
@Scimonster Historical proofs here are weak, as the tag was almost universally applied in retrospect. To question, as a change, its use is certainly encouraged
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
^^^ This example would have been much more impressive if I could have included actual references from memory, but unlike some members of present company, that's beyond my abilities. :)
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses I disagree. This question doesn't need to assume any particular type of pesach hashgacha.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA It needs to assume that there's such a thing!
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses Not an expert. It would greatly improved by clarifying explicitly what I think is assumed that the desired effect is covering all the hair with an opaque covering (as opposed to see-through coverings or partial coverings). (cc the op @MonicaCellio)
@IsaacMoses Such a thing as laws of kashrut for pesach?
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA But without a halachic basis for wanting that standard, isn't the question flawed from the outset, by your reasoning?
@DoubleAA Yes. Like such a thing as leaning.
 
Double AA
Double AA
5:39 PM
@IsaacMoses No. It has clarified the standard it seeks to meet.
@IsaacMoses Like such a thing as Judaism? If the question sought how to find out if a rabbi discusses leaning or not in a piece, then knowing there is such a thing as leanign would indeed be sufficient. An answer would involve noting the traditional rabbinic hebrew for the concept: הסבה and maybe some conjugations thereof.
Wanting to know what is leaning because you know there is a thing called leaning is what we call a Halacha question.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA So, if the leaning question describes the type of posture he's trying to accomplish, that's sufficient?
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses Yes. Describes unambiguously I should add. Saying you want to build a "hut" isn't sufficient to describe what kind of sukkah (viz-a-viz halachic requirements/chumras/preferences) you are looking to build.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA I agree with this standard, while noting that it's significantly different from the "present a halachic ruling" standard that you initially suggested.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses I don't see the difference.
Note halachic rulings do not need to be presented sourced to be rulings, though thatd oes make them more valuable.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA I'm with @IsaacMoses on this. I think how-to questions tend to arise from practical "how do I do this thing that I know I'm supposed to do?" situations, and we shouldn't first require the person to cite SA or whatever on that. If it turns out that there are halachic concerns or the question is unclear, then the community should handle those cases.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
5:48 PM
@DoubleAA OK, so I guess I misread your initial suggestion.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio I never insisted anyone cite SA (though doing so always improves a claim).
@MonicaCellio @IsaacMoses We need to be careful with these how-to qs that they don't become hidden RFפs.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA we had sukkah how-to questions that assumed but didn't support/prove sukkah requirements. Those were after the tag was created IIRC. I don't see the difference with seder questions.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio I can't respond to that without seeing examples. (nor do I promise to endorse certain past usages of the tag)
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
@DoubleAA I agree that judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/56472/… is halacha, not how-to. But most how-to questions (AFAIK) aren't like that. And if we find ones that are, they should be retagged.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
 
Double AA
Double AA
5:52 PM
Example of hidden RFפ as how-to: How do I handle a situation where I accidentally used dairy margarine in my big, meat soup pot. What do I do with the pot? Can I use it for meat now? Or do I have to tovel it or kosher it first? And if I have to kosher it, by which method? Also, if this was months ago, and I realized my mistake after Shabbos, should I ask for mechilah to the guests that I accidentally served a melchigs dish during a meat meal?
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA This is a good point. We are probably a bit more lenient about "Please suggest how I should behave in my situation" questions when the question at hand is practical rather than halachic. Maybe we shouldn't be, due to the issue of not being able to interrogate the author's reality. But if we are, we should be careful not to be when the question does contain a halachic question.
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
@DoubleAA That sounds pretty blatantly obvious to me as Rfפ.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@Scimonster It was an exterme example, I admit. It'sm eant to show a point.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA and I don't promise to endorse your rejection. I think we can take it as a given that we have varying opinions here.
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
@DoubleAA But still, it's clear to any of us that that isn't a practical advice question -- it's asking for the halacha, in an Rfפ way.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
5:53 PM
@DoubleAA how about links to examples that have actually been asked?
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@MonicaCellio That one was, and was closed pretty quickly.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio I can check, but I don't know why it is relevant if they have been asked or not. We're tlaking guidelines to apply to future questions.
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses It was asked as halacha. i reformulated it slightly to make it howto (possibly not bringing geulah into the world while doing so :( )
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA you wouldn't respond to me until I gave you examples; I am asking for the same courtesy. Or that you be willing to discuss in the abstract; either's fine, but let's be consistent.
 
Double AA
Double AA
5:55 PM
@MonicaCellio I gave (an) example(s). You are asking now for examples of things which were asked.
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
3
Q: How to say Tefilas HaDerech while on the road alone

SAHMy question applies to circumstances in which one is driving an extended distance by oneself. They also apply primarily--though not exclusively--to people who do not have the Tefilos HaDerech memorized, or whose minhag is to daven in front of a text at all times (i.e., Chabad). One is supposed t...

halacha how-to pikuachnefesh-danger-life vehicles-transportation tefilat-haderech
 
Double AA
Double AA
Wait what exactly do you want examples of?
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
^ Perfect example, IMO.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA you're objecting to the use of the tag, so I assumed you had some examples of misuse. If you're worried about theoretical future misuse of the tag, then ok.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@Scimonster example of what?
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
5:57 PM
@Scimonster (We shouldn't get too hung up on tags per se as indicative of how site policy should apply. What we're concerned with here is "How-to"-type questions, not specifically how-to questions.)
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@IsaacMoses thanks for bringing us back on track.
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
@DoubleAA Of a misuse of how-to when really it's asking for halacha.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio I opened above with judaism.stackexchange.com/q/56458/759 as a bad use of how-to
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
I think "how do I do this practical thing?" is an important part of our scope; it's the "Jewish life" in "Jewish life & learning", and we need to support those kinds of questions. We also need to keep the halachic lines clear; an answer to a how-to question is just giving advice, and -- as with everything on this site -- you have to CYR for psak.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio "I think 'how do I do this practical thing?' is an important part of our scope; it's the 'Jewish life' in 'Jewish life & learning', and we need to support those kinds of questions." I don't think anyone has disagreed with that.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
5:59 PM
@DoubleAA good.
I couldn't tell.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@MonicaCellio If someone asks "How does one do this practical thing?" and there are halachic issues, not specified in the question, with the right approach to this thing, then answers would do best to specify the approach[es] to the halachic issue that they are complying with, with standard expressions of halachic humility.
 
Double AA
Double AA
For instance, judaism.stackexchange.com/q/27011/759 clarifies that KLP for the OP means no chametz, kitniyot but yes (in a comment which should be edited into the question) gebrokhts. That lets people who know jewish life help, without asking for psak.
^ good how-to/practical/jewishlife question
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
... and/or present corrections for any halachic misconceptions in the question, again with standard expressions of halachic humility
@DoubleAA (borderline Too Broad, IMO, as previously expressed in chat)
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses a separate issue
It presents standards and seeks advice in implementation from the people who may best know how to implement it.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA Yes. But, you know, pedant points.
@DoubleAA, so, what's your prescription for OP of the leaning question?
 
Double AA
Double AA
6:07 PM
judaism.stackexchange.com/q/30866/759 I don't like that one at all. There are all kinds of things which may or may not be kosher sukkot.
@IsaacMoses Ask his rabbi what are the requirements of leaning, then post asking how best to implement his listed requirements using X kind of chair with Y amount of room around the table and Z extras (pillows, ottamans, etc.)
If his rabbi says there are no requirements, then he should say that and we will answer accordingly. (I may post something about purple polka-dotted elephants constituting leaning.)
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@IsaacMoses agreed. It's worth noting that sometimes answerers (and askers!) don't know about the halachic issues; for example with my answer on the leaning question. I do what I've always seen people doing and had no idea there were opinions that regulated what you lean on. So we correct those when we encounter them but we can't prevent them.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio That's why an OP should ask first for halacha (first on MY for background then to his rabbi).
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA Why not just explain more clearly what he's trying to do?
 
Double AA
Double AA
Once he has listed rules, answeres just need to check if they satisfy the rules.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA the OP probably didn't know there were halachic considerations. That's where this started, isn't it? We are not all learned in all halachot.
 
Double AA
Double AA
6:10 PM
@MonicaCellio So ASK!
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA How do you know that OP is looking for directions to regulate his own behavior?
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses Correct. He can still list any made up list of requirememnts and we work with them. (this is not farfetched. i may ask how temani X implements Y)
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA you have to have some reason to suspect there's a question!
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio Not sure what you mean. You either know what regulations you seek to implement or you don't. If you don't, then ask. If you do, then list them.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
Yehuda, could you please edit this question to clarify what posture you are trying to achieve to accomplish leaning and why this posture in particular is difficult in the chair you describe? Your question will be extra valuable if you include your basis for aiming for this posture, particularly, whether it's from a halachic source or from what you've seen over the years. — Isaac Moses 27 secs ago
 
Double AA
Double AA
6:14 PM
The OP in the leaning q could open with "According to the opinion which allows anything at all for leaning..." Doing so wouldn't mean such an opinion exists (he may have made it up or misunderstood or assumed or whatever), and again, I may answer with elephants. But at least answerers know what they're dealing with.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA good enough?
@DoubleAA Answerers would have every right to answer by correcting the misconception, if there is one.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses I don't know. What opinion would their answer follow instaed? How would they prove that there is no such opinion?
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA Answers that [just] undermine an assumption of a question are good answers.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses That is the idea. I motion though that such questions should be on hold as unclear before a comment such as yours is responded to via edit.
6
Q: I know A, and based on A, I'm asking B

JakeOne example of this is here, but I have seen several. If the questioner is asking B, presuming A, could a valid answer be that A is incorrect?

discussion answer-quality
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
@IsaacMoses As long as they can actually reject it.
8
A: I know A, and based on A, I'm asking B

MenachemYes. But it is not a great answer if there are opinions that A is indeed valid.

 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
6:19 PM
@DoubleAA (I am finding that when certain people are present in chat, I can save effort by making reference to something on Meta without hunting it down, and someone will go ahead and supply it.)
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses The answer would have to "refute[] the presumption in such a way that makes the question disappear." Saying that everyone agrees to a certain leaning requirement likely doesn't make the question of how to handle folding chairs in dining rooms disappear IMO.
@IsaacMoses Avadim hayinu l'Isaac Moses b'Chat....
4 mins ago, by Double AA
@IsaacMoses That is the idea. I motion though that such questions should be on hold as unclear before a comment such as yours is responded to via edit.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA It depends precisely what the nature of the misconception is and how it affects the question. If for example, OP here were to edit in "As far as I know, from what I've seen at all of the seders I've been at, one must be leaning into a pillow to fulfill the mitzva," I think someone could probably dispell that.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses The OP should edit in "I'm looking for answer which provide for leaning into a pillow (which, as I understand it, is a requirement of the Mitzva.)" Even there, I think a comment is more appropriate than an answer. (Note someone may ask about ways of doing heseba into pillows for other reasons, eg. their child loves his pillow and they want to make heseba fun and exciting.)
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA I think whether to close as unclear should depend on how much ambiguity there really is in the question. (See, e.g., an old disagreement we had about "Shalosh Regalim.") I agree that in this case, where he's asking about difficulties with a posture without specifying the posture, the question is Unclear.
 
Double AA
Double AA
What about
Kosher accd to whom? Ashkenazim? Sefardim? The Chazon Ish? Will you accept bamboo mats? 2x4s? Maamid d'Maamid? Will you require 4 full walls? — Double AA ♦ 4 mins ago
Maamid d'Maamid is a popular chumra in some circles and it can make construction much more annoying and expensive.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
6:29 PM
@DoubleAA I didn't cite a requirement for a festive meal in my seder-and-vegetarians question. If I were to ask a question about livening up the reading of the haggadah (because zaydie's monotone mumble isn't doing it) I wouldn't cite halachot about language, comprehensibility, and what exactly "read" means.
2
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA That means no metal anywhere in the walls? I think it's fair to assume that unless specified, OP is not assuming membership in those circles or any others that are not mainstream. I think that any sukka that is kosher according to any [valid] opinion is probably a good answer to that question, and I think the question's fine as-is.
... and any answers that assume non-mainstream kulot should say so.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio You don't need to assume any requirement for a festive meal. You want to feed them some food. Great.
@MonicaCellio You probably ought to clarify to what extent you expect the traditional text to make it into the final product. Some may say that none of it is needed and just talk about the exodus.
@IsaacMoses Playing games with defining 'mainstream' is as you know dangerous and should be well defined (american orthodoxy? modern orthodoxy? any jewish practice adhered to by >100 people?)
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA Are we talking about
0
Q: What are the minimum required sections of the Hagadah that must be said?

DanFI am leading the Seder for my family, many whom are older people and young children who must be on a strict schedule. I.e., they have to eat by a certain time and must be asleep by a certain time, etc. What are the minimal required parts of the Hagadah that must be said / done for halachic purpo...

halacha passover passover-seder-hagada
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA so in this hypothetical question I would say that I still want us to read the same text (and sing some of the songs) and I want to make it more engaging. And I might bring up reading parts in English to be more accessible. In your opinion would I need to further support any of that?
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses I was talking just about Monica's comment. Any resemblance to real posts, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
6:35 PM
@DoubleAA As I said, any answer that's kosher according to any [valid] opinion is good enough. "Valid" is also problematic, but whatever. Answers that quote non-valid opinions will likely get downvoted. Similarly, answers that cite strange kulot without editing in a justification are likely to get downvoted. That's a matter of voter judgement, not site policy.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA @IsaacMoses and to be clear, my example was hypothetical -- zaydie mumbles the haggadah quickly while we all sit and listen and, yawn, what can we do to make this more interesting? I'm not saying it's a good question, as there are some obvious answers there (share the reading, etc); it's just an outline of a question.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio It's not about support. It's about defining what you want for answerers to help you with.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA That's a shame, because man, I am as unhappy as you are with that one.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses Couldn't the same be said about answers to the leaning q?
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
(Sorry. Didn't mean to read your mind. I am as unhappy as your comments appear to express.)
@DoubleAA Yes!
6 hours ago, by Isaac Moses
... comments like "Has a rabbi approved this practice?" could be helpful in getting an answerer to second-guess their response, but if there's a specific detail of Halacha that you believe an answer is violating, it'd be much more helpful to spell it out. In many cases, the mental answer to the former question will be "No, but what do I need a rabbi for? Everyone leans like this." However, if challenged with a specific Halachic objection, answerers are more likely to qualify, change, or ...
 
Double AA
Double AA
6:39 PM
@IsaacMoses So why here did you agree to VTC? chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/20578967#20578967
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
6 hours ago, by Isaac Moses
... delete their answers, and voters, editors, and readers are similarly more likely to take the Halachic objection into account.
 
Double AA
Double AA
13 mins ago, by Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA I think whether to close as unclear should depend on how much ambiguity there really is in the question. (See, e.g., an old disagreement we had about "Shalosh Regalim.") I agree that in this case, where he's asking about difficulties with a posture without specifying the posture, the question is Unclear.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA This comment ^^^ explains why. What is the inconsistency that you're suggesting?
... my most recent statements concern the validity of answers, not of questions
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses It also endorses the sukkah question as a question, IIUC. Why not VTC as Unclear like you would by the leaning question, even though both could potentially get varied community-judged answers?
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA OK. Yes. In the leaning question, OP is saying "leaning in these circumstances is hard," but doesn't explain why. That's the core Unclarity IMO.
... In the Sukka question, OP is asking for a cheapo kosher sukka. If your answer fulfills that description, you're good. In the leaning question, OP is asking for a fix to his problem, but there's not enough information to fully understand the problem.
 
Double AA
Double AA
6:44 PM
I think fundamentally I'm bothered by answers making halachic claims without feeling a need to back them up, as was seen in every answer to the leaning question. If the q specifies its position and people speak about implementation, then that isn't happening. Waiting for a comment to potentially point out misinformation is not good. The burden should be on the one making a halachic claim to back it up, especially on these qs where voters may upvote based on ease of implmnttn w/o consdrng halcha
@IsaacMoses That seems like a forced distinction. I dont know what a kosher sukkah is (accd to the op) and I dont know what leaning is (accd to the op)
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA It doesn't matter what OP thinks is a kosher sukka. OP's life is none of our business. It does matter what OP['s question] thinks is leaning, because we're trying to solve a problem he's presenting with leaning in a certain situation.
 
Double AA
Double AA
It does matter what OP['s question] thinks is a kosher sukkah, because we're trying to solve a problem he's presenting (of not yet having one) with a cheap/easy production of such a thing.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA Answerers may not realize until challenged that they're making an halachic claim.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses That's not a good thing...
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA Nah. The requirement of having a sukka exists whether OP comes along or not. The problem of leaning while in a dining room chair may or may not only exist in OP's head.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
6:50 PM
@DoubleAA answers didn't assert halacha; at least some (haven't checked back just now but definitely mine and I think another) reported what we have seen. That is all. That might not be a good answer but it's not an unsourced halachic claim.
@IsaacMoses that's a good point that in the leaning question the problem is under-specified.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio Those that cite first hand observation are sourced halachic claim. Since they IIRC dont cite any noted halachic authorities, they are quite weakly sourced (that's an understatement)
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA I can go to any of a number of vendors and buy a kosher sukkah without knowing what exactly makes it kosher.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA B"H the world has problems in it that The Holy One Blessed be He gives us means to try to solve.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses I'm trying to propose a policy that does just that.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA they are sourced claims but not sourced halachic claims.
 
Double AA
Double AA
6:52 PM
@MonicaCellio If the OP wants one with a kosher certification he should say so. That would be a great metric to include.
@MonicaCellio No. They are sourced halachic claims. They claim doing X has halachic ramification Y.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA I don't know how to say this any more clearly. I don't think you are hearing what I am saying.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA You can't, by policy, get everyone to know about the existence of Halachic issues of which they are currently unaware.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@IsaacMoses I'm not asking for that?
@MonicaCellio I don't think you understand what your answer says. It says "I saw people doing X to fulfill obligation Y". Your recommending it, or at least noting it, is a halachic claim of dubious value.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
> We are supposed to lean while drinking the 4 cups and eating the matza at the Seders, but I find it hard to do that while sitting in an armless dining room chair. Likewise, I have not been able to secure a pillow on such a chair. How do others deal with this little practical challenge? Any helpful tips would be appreciated.
"We are supposed to" is pretty vague.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio I agree a more formal claim would be nice there, as well as identifying 'we', etc.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
6:58 PM
It asks for practical advice about how to lean. Answers are free to say "(whatever), but in order to fulfill the halacha you need to (whatever else)". That would be a good answer.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@DoubleAA I think we've generally agreed that the question at hand is insufficiently clear. I think that beyond that, if there's a general policy that you think we should all agree ahead of time to apply in similar cases, you should consider writing it up precisely on Meta.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
If I thought the question were asking only for halachically-supported advice I wouldn't have answered, as all I can do is report what I've seen.
@IsaacMoses yes.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio Then can you do the honors of closing it? It just got itself a new answer while we were talking
@MonicaCellio It sought advice for how to fulfill the mitzva given certain limitations. Whether it wanted explicit sources or not is a separate issue (it appears it did not ask for those).
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA my "yes" was to "you should write this up on meta if you want a change".
I only see one close vote, and I assume a second from this discussion. Ok, I'll go ahead and close as unclear per Isaac's comment.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio "change" There is no standing policy afaik. The tag is, what, 45 days old?
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
7:01 PM
@DoubleAA right, this was a "how do I cope with my dining-room furniture?" practical question.
@DoubleAA questions of this style are considerably older.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@MonicaCellio The one regular user vote on it is mine
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
With or without the tag.
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
@DoubleAA 5 months.
 
Double AA
Double AA
@MonicaCellio Practical or not, if it wanted advice on how to fulfill a mitzva without specifying the various halachic perameters, then answering it requrires ruling on those issues by definition.
@Scimonster touchee. this is not the first time that an issue like this has arisen incidentally iirc.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA I think you are assuming more halachic intent than appears to be there. The question is now on hold, so we'll see how he edits it.
 
Double AA
Double AA
7:04 PM
@MonicaCellio Intent or no intent. It's by definition.
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
@MonicaCellio Thanks for your moderation.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@DoubleAA I am not going to keep arguing with you. Obviously we are not communicating.
Yehuda, I've put this on hold pending the edit that Isaac requested in the previous comment. Thanks. — Monica Cellio ♦ 1 min ago
 
Isaac Moses
Isaac Moses
Gotta tear myself away @DoubleAA, @MonicaCellio, (and @Scimonster) thanks for yet another lively but quite civil debate. TZT
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
@IsaacMoses TZT.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@IsaacMoses TZT.
 
Scimonster
Scimonster
7:06 PM
I might be disappearing myself for a little while.
 
Double AA
Double AA
I note the tag wiki of how-to judaism.stackexchange.com/tags/how-to/info :
> Questions about halacha should be tagged halacha. This tag is for when you know a Halacha already and seek advice as to how to best implement it.
To be fair I think I wrote that some time ago
Some hold that pillows are necessary — sam 8 mins ago
 
yEz
yEz
7:23 PM
@DoubleAA As far as I can tell, and experience has repeatedly shown, we are perfectly fine with hidden RFP's. It's the overt ones that bother us. How is a how-to question about a generalized scenario worse than the guy who asks "How do I do such and such in my specific situation" and then edits it to "How would someone do such and such in such and such a situation"?
@IsaacMoses and for related future reference:
17
Q: Why are Shabbat loopholes a good thing?

NobodyI'm not Jewish but do know that strict observance of religious laws is important in Judaism. I recently visited one of our suppliers in Israel and the hotel and office block had sabbath elevators. The younger techies I was working with thought it was ridiculous but it seemed that pious/observan...

shabbat halacha-theory
 
Double AA
Double AA
@yEz RFP is always a sliding scale, whereby first person-ness and uniqueness/specificity of the situation are both factor. How-tos tend to be weaker on the latter of those. I agree it's a gray-scale.
 
 
2 hours later…
Double AA
Double AA
9:18 PM
@IsaacMoses I don't think I'm misrepresenting anything but you may be interested in double checking my conversation judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/56458/…
 

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