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7:48 AM
(removed) :]
@falstro The German AIP charts are copyright material and cannot be shared publicly. aviation.stackexchange.com/q/12856/572
Hosted in the US, it's fair use.
Yeah, I was being stupid there, so I removed it again :P
Hosted in the US?
What is your source?
stackexchange is hosted in the US.
Yeah, but the original charts are copyrighted and there is no fair use in Germany.
7:50 AM
and instrument procedures are public info according to ICAO
You can get them through the DFS and EAD PAMS Light, but you cannot share or redistribute them.
I have had that discussion with the DFS already :P
they aren't redistributed in germany, they're redistributed in the US -> fair use
but yes, DFS sucks in that regard
How can you claim fair use on something that does not allow fair use in the country where it was originally published?
ah, welcome to the internet
the land of gray areas in terms of jurisdictions
If it's downloaded in the US, it's republished in the US, why would not fair-use apply?
How can you apply US law to documents originally hosted and governed by EU and here specifically DE law?
7:56 AM
how can you apply EU/DE law on something hosted in the US?
You cannot, but you uploaded a copyrighted material to a US hoster... which is the primary violation :D
from within the US yes, so no violation?
You cannot derive fair-use on something that was illegally obtained and uploaded
it was neither illegally obtained (publicly available), nor illegally exported, nor illegally uploaded (fair use)
yes, I'm playing devil's advocate here
if it makes you feel better, I can crop it to just show the relevant segments of the SID
That would be even more a violation of German law :P
Nutzungsrechts vs Bearbeitungsrecht
8:00 AM
no, it would be fair use... ;)
I am still not convinced you can claim fair use on documents that are not from the US
ok; I can redraw the segments using ms-paint?
That is absolutely possible, but you would need to provide a source of where you got the data :D
@SentryRaven that's the thing about jurisdiction, they don't follow the documents, they're geographically defined
Nevertheless... where did you get the chart? German AIP or EAD PAMS Light?
8:02 AM
Copying of the materials in RAM or other temporary storage device necessary for the browsing of the EAD website is authorized. All other uses are strictly prohibited.
Access to and use of the EAD website constitute acceptance of this copyright notice as well as the disclaimer as described above.

2013 EUROCONTROL © All rights reserved
See what I mean?
You cannot claim fair-use on these...
not visible if you open PAMS directly
Did you register for an account?
There is no anonymous access AFAIK
8:04 AM
then you don't know enough :)
In which case I would claim illegal access, as why else would there be a registration form that wants you to accept the Terms of Service :P
either way just saying "all use is strictly prohibited" doesn't make it so; it's like the major sports network saying that "no account may be disseminated without prior written consent". Sorry, but that's not legally binding.
I have no idea about major sport network accounts, but for EADS to have that in their terms and conditions is perfectly legal... and binding if you accept to use their services.
So you cannot apply fair-use on the documents, because they are not hosted in the US...and they cannot become hosted in the US to apply fair-use, because uploading them there is a violation in the first place.
Like I said, I have had this discussion with the DFS already ad nauseam..
European copyright law is a b**ch and German Urheberrecht even moreso. I hate it with a passion, because it makes my life difficult, too :)
@SentryRaven uploading them in the US cannot be covered by EU/DE law, so a fair-use claim is actually quite viable. That the DFS would like to have you believe otherwise doesn't surprise me. They could possibly still go after me, since I am currently in Germany, and they might even win, since they, just like most states claim jurisdiction everywhere. It's like going after someone for doing something in one country which is considered illegal in another, it's weird but some states still do it.
@SentryRaven But, again, I'm playing devil's advocate. I'll take it down if you think that's better. Can't remove it completely though, it'll still be in the revision history.
There, edited it
8:22 AM
@falstro I'd say removing it and providing a way to get it (e.g. to PAMS Light) is more appropriate, since my understanding of the US fair-use criteria says that fair-use cannot apply here. If there was something like fair-use in Europe or Germany, I'd be really happy, but until then, I am convinced that you cannot redistribute these works without permission from DFS or EAD.
You'd need to edit the answer, too :P
@falstro I am still curious why you didn't have to register there. Are you using an app or software to obtain the charts?
8:46 AM
@SentryRaven I only edited the answer, not much more I can do
@SentryRaven you can access PAMS directly without going through the EAD website using a guest account.
@falstro You edited the question, no the answer :P
@SentryRaven yeah, that I didn't upload, DeltaLima did that
In that case EAD is nuts for providing guest accounts :P
yeah, username/password is guest/guest; so it's not like it's hidden or anything.
I am dumbstruck by that...
8:58 AM
@SentryRaven easier to manage then provide a password for everyone who want to log in
9:23 AM
@falstro feel free to remove it if you think it violates the copyright. I had a discussion with EAD about a year ago and they didn't seem really concerned about this kind of usage, although they wouldn't give anything in writing of course.
Frankly, I would expect that they don't mind that usage, too. It's a common sense thing, to be honest. And I would absolutely love if DFS and EAD would say that for educational and non-commercial use, these charts could be used with proper attribution. I wasn't able to coax DFS into it yet :D
For each and every single use of their material I have to email them and ask....
9:39 AM
@DeltaLima I don't think it does, and I don't think it should. But the question has been asked and answered, so I didn't feel the need to argue the case further.
I am almost tempted to contact EAD again and ask for permission to use their material occasionally on this site when the context of the question justifies it. I'll think about a way to phrase it.
I wonder if they will refer you to the DFS GmbH, because EAD cannot technically allow this. How would you keep track of this btw, as future generations of Aviation.SE users and moderators will need to have a reference to any such agreement?
@DeltaLima that would be truly awesome; in the interest of educating people in aviation, I can't see it having any drawbacks for EAD whatsoever. Then again, people tends to be jerks when it comes to copyright for the sake of being jerks and thinking they're somehow losing money they wouldn't get anyway.
@SentryRaven we'll figure out a way
@SentryRaven have them post in meta?
or a copy of the agreement posted in meta
9:48 AM
Yeah, I thought so as well...
I think the usage here is in the spirit of EAD Basic itself: The EAD Basic solution is specifically targeted at:
private pilots and general aviation;
members of the public searching for aeronautical information;
training schools;
everyone who has an interest in aviation and aeronautical information.
Let me know if you succeed @DeltaLima, maybe not all hope is lost for me then :P
I know there was a site in the past (charts.aero?) that just deeplinked all the EAD material. EAD wasn't pleased about that and I understand that. But this is different
We only include a very small portion of their content, and only when it appropriate in the context of a question. We can attribute it to EAD with a link should they wish so.
Yup, charts.aero had to take down their service because they deeplinked. We used that site as well for some time, but nowadays we have to redirect people to register with EAD to access PAMS Light.
charts.aero also doesn't have a fair use claim even if everything had been in the US, if you want to go down that road.
its search interface was a hell of a lot easier to work with than PAMS though. I mean it's seriously broken that, in order to search for anything, you have to open the 'advanced' search options :)
10:46 AM
@SentryRaven is on a title hunt again :-)
The query updated on Monday I heard :D
We did 123 posts in the first week, I have to make a query that shows the number of improvements made per user. No doubt you'll lead that list!
11:05 AM
Enough for now...
11:34 AM
And finally again a question I can answer :P
1 hour later…
12:58 PM
@SentryRaven Aircraft carriers? :)
@falstro Are you asking if I have one or if I want one? The latter, if that's the question...
And now don't distract me, I am waiting on 1.1 upvotes so I hit 4k....
A: Why do certain airlines give names to their aircraft?

SentryRavenThere are also other aircraft carriers which name their aircraft, e.g. Lufthansa. To understand where this comes from, I recommend reading these blogs: Lufthansa | Aircraft Naming Meanwhile at KLM | Every Plane Needs A Name [sic] Meanwhile at KLM | Who Thinks Up Aircraft Names [sic]

Well that has really been a nice "typo"... :P
2 hours later…
3:12 PM
3.999 reputation. 1 reputation left to hit the milestone. I shouldn't have downvoted that one answer. Dang!
@SentryRaven You can undo that downvote.
1) edit answer; 2) undo downvote; 3) rollback edit
I would have to find an answer I can salvage. Maybe later at home :)
3:37 PM
@SentryRaven Welcome to 4k :) and nice answer on the ATC question.
3:57 PM
@Farhan What was your reason for changing the title here? I feel like it was more clear before. Now the answer seems to be "no, there is usually a door in the way."
4:16 PM
@fooot Well, the previous one doesn't tell why the passenger wants to go in the cockpit.
no, there is usually a door in the way. Hmm, it may appear that way.
Let me think to clarify it
@Farhan I'm assuming "not terrorism", but they don't say... should we be worried?
@fooot What you think about this:
Can a passenger request to visit the cockpit during a flight?
Sounds good to me.
But it's really not that different from the original.
@fooot The first one Can I ask to go to the cockpit during a flight? appears more on these lines Can I ask to go to the bathroom during a flight?
... where the asking party's interest is not affecting anyone else. But that's not the case when you want to go to the cockpit.
Ok, I see your point there. In that sense it is better now.
Another reason to edit titles... questions asked 8 months ago finally get closed.
4:40 PM
@fooot which one?
Q: Is a smartphone required to control a DJI Phantom 2 Vision+?

arothNot sure if this is on-topic here, as the official guidance seems a bit vague. Anyways, I've got a relatively simple question. I'm considering purchasing a Phantom 2 Vision+, but am a little unclear about what options there are in terms of controlling it. Their website makes a big deal about b...

It didn't have a single vote in 6+ months.
That's a flag itself.
4 hours later…
9:07 PM
This question caught attention of many new users of the site.
I guess that's a good thing.
2 hours later…
10:41 PM
The asking to go to the cockpit question is starting to pick up a lot of "I got to go in the cockpit when I was a kid" answers that are just anecdotes which don't reflect the current situation. Worth protecting the question?
(They don't even add any new information, since the asker already says they did this as a child and are wondering if it's still possible.)
@DavidRicherby I would say yes. I was on the fence about it but it's attracting a lot of crap now.

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