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12:00 AM
whoohoo all the Christianity.SE flags are caught up on
Feel free to feed me more if you see any problems :P
We need to be brutal around here to prevent the site from imploding on itself.
@AdamRobinson I disagree -- "follow user" option encourages people to focus on the users not the content
We want people following content they are interested in, not people they like
else it becomes a clique instead of an exercise in sharing expertise
@HedgeMage Hence why I said that it seems like a nice thing to have, not that it's necessarily a positive thing to have ;)
I'm out for the evening... be good guys and gals :)
Oh, well that spoils my plans for the evening!
7 hours later…
4 hours later…
11:05 AM
@dancek I don't think it is.
11:35 AM
A: Would it have been possible for Jesus to sin?

dancekYES! But he resisted! That he is supernatural isn't suggesting a vanquising of the existing curse of nature; to escape sin totally. Jesus had free will1, and of his own accord he chose to do what was right2. How else could he have been tempted! Jesus truly went through everything we do, and muc...

I made my own answer, if only to see if I'm right about something (see hidden message).
2 hours later…
1:06 PM
Good morning!
@DTest good morning
1:34 PM
@DTest 'morning.
hopefully today will be an uneventful day and I won't be tempted to troll the site. Need to get some actual work done sometimes.
@DTest lol, this is what 9/80 schedules are for :)
Good morning @HedgeMage!
@waxeagle hah, sometimes I think that'd be nice.
@DTest it is. 26 extra days off a year is really pretty awesome :).
Hi, @waxeagle :)
2:13 PM
Q: What were the beliefs, teachings, and practices of the church regarding slavery in the New World?

DJClayworthWhen the New World was discovered, slavery was virtually unknown in Europe. Soon after the discovery of the New World, European powers began to make slaves there, and to transport slaves from Africa to the Americas. What part did the church (mainly the Roman Catholic church, which dominated Eur...

I've been coming back to this question and I think, with those edits, it actually should be opened now. What say you, community? :)
@richard i think it's a decent question....also looks like it's reopen now
@richard the comments could probably be cleaned up now
Cool. It was only one vote away from reopening. The meta posts have really helped us clarify things.
@DTest I flagged them for moderator attention
2:50 PM
@Richard: When I started in on answering that Nephilium question your answer wasn't around. I had it open for like a day before I got it posted or I might not have even bothered had I seen yours. I'm glad that op gave you the accept mark but you probably should have gotten the bonus too, I was just trying to add another view on the matter to what was then a very one sided set of answers. Your research on all the different views is great.
I was planning on adding the Seth/Cain thing as another explanation instead of just objecting to the angels view ... now I'm not sure what to do with it :/
@Caleb Hehe. :) I don't mind. I just posted because it seemed to be a hot topic and the real answer seems to be "Who really knows". When we come up with those types of questions, I really like to post a list answer (more or less) giving all the possibilities. I think these types of answers are what are going to make this site useful, rather than a bunch of one-sided answers.
I really like your answer, though. I can see why it got the bounty.
@Richard In some ways a I agree. The "This is the spectrum of beliefs" as an answer, is really the most useful one, however no everyone is qualified to give it. The best answerers may be the ones who take the time to read all of the answer and pull them all into one coherent gives all sides argument
@Richard Ya now I just need to edit it to have some citations and such so it actually deserves it. <adds to list of 10 or so answers in that queue>
@waxeagle I usually have my assistant help me out with finding all the theories. It really helps with the crazy theories (Nephilim were aliens, for example).
3:22 PM
oh my
A: Would it have been possible for Jesus to sin?

Dan GleeballsDidnt he have a good hard dirty wank in the desert? I wud have!

brain fart. I just favorited one of my own questions. oh well
@DTest: must have been a good one!
@flimzy wow...just wow
uhh @HedgeMage you still around?
@waxeagle just deleted it
3:27 PM
@HedgeMage gracias
de nada
Wow, this room has become bilingual!
Que padre!
well when you have people who have lived in Mexico, texas and ecuador in a room its kinda natural :)
Well, I live in Mexico right now.
But I still don't speak much Spanish on these rooms... hehe
pero puedo empezar ahora...
I know :)...we need an SL&U soon.
3:36 PM
@Flimzy probably not a great idea :)
@Flimzy Spanish Language and Usage.
Ah, yes
I'm committed to that (or whatever it's called at it's current stage)
English, Japanese, French and German all exist at this point
as well as the one for spanish language programming
@waxeagle that does surprise me spanish doesn't exist
3:37 PM
@DTest 122 commited
Spanish Language & Usage

Proposed Q&A site for students, teachers, and linguists wanting to discuss the finer points of the Spanish language.

Currently in commitment.

@DTest: I think that's just a testament to the fact that Latin America is quite a different culture than most of eastern europe and western asia (where French, German, and Japanese are spoken)
@Flimzy yeah, its not as developed/tech oriented as the places that speak those langauges. Although it seems like Chile and some others are really getting kicked up.
Internet isn't nearly as big a part of daily life here in .mx (and probably the rest of latin america) as I think it is in Europe
And probably about half of the people in Guadalajara who use Internet, do it from a cyber cafe... if that was me, I wouldn't be interested in spending time on an SE site.
@Flimzy the access just isn't there in my experience, everyone has a cell phone, but relatively few folks have a computer with internet
@waxeagle: Agreed...
3:40 PM
@waxeagle it's there in spanish-speaking texas.
And if only half of the ppl in Guadalajara have internet at home... then I'm sure the rest of .mx is "worse"... considering GDL is a the 2nd largest city in .mx, and one of the wealthiest/techiest
@DTest thats true, although the folks who use spanish as a primary language are going to be the ones who can't afford it :(
@DTest: Yes, but those people also speak English, or are part of the non-Internet culture
I'm going afk for an hour or three... see you all later
SL&U's commitment level keeps rising...
so it should hit beta soon
3:42 PM
@waxeagle I know it's a small subset, but a few tech job postings I saw listed spanish as required, or at least highly preferred.
@DTest: A lot of people who take bilingual jobs like that, probably aren't very interested in Spanish from an academic standpoint, though.
Once the site goes to beta, I can invite a bunch of my friends here who are learning Spanish.
@flimzy true enough. i stand defeated!
@DTest: You can always redeem yourself by going to commit to SL&U :)
@DTest well its half way there at least, it will go live eventually
@HedgeMage we will try not to inundate you with flags while you are away...
@flimzy i'd rather (re)learn german on the GL&U site.
3:45 PM
/me goes back to prepping for D&D
4:04 PM
@Caleb Wow. Thanks for that link correction here. My copy-paste skills are somewhat lacking. ;)
@Richard No problem. I also fixed a plural tense issue. I hope you don't mind my making the proposed possible good example even more specific.
@Caleb No, that's great! Making good examples better is always nice.
4:19 PM
We need some more serious Greek / Hebrew scholars around here. I'm foundering. Or hacking, whatever you want to call it. Or we need hermeneutics to open up so that we can use them as a reference to put together good answers for here. Or something.
Also the HCSB has some great cross reference tools but an absolutely maddening website that is too smart for it's own good, I can't even figure out how to link to a verse!
@Caleb Wow that is a tremendous resource. But yeah, difficult to use, for sure.
Man I hate the auth login stuff for chat
I usually use the ESV site because I have the Greek add on module that does a very nice interlinear with cross references (and very easy to link to), but they have a bug that was cross wiring the "only begotten" to the Greek pronoun "the". Not helpful!
@Flimzy Yes it's kind of nuts. I'm not really sure why SE auth stuff is so complicated except that they've patched it all together a piece at a time. It's getting better but chat (esp on mobile) is kind of wonky still.
@Caleb It looks like they've specifically, intentionally prevented people from being able to link to verses.
@Richard Maybe, or their developers just don't know good web dev practices.
4:33 PM
@Caleb I'm not so sure... all links are javascript. If you bookmark a verse, it saves as the root URL (mybiblestudy.com/). Also, if you right-click and Copy the link location, it only shows root URL. Bad practices tend to show the javascript instead. This looks intentional.
Actually, looking at it in IE, you may be right. It's just a really strange system.
@Richard I say we conduct an experiment and curse some Christians
@CiscoIPPhone LOL. Well, that would satisfy the science-minded portion of the community. ;)
4:52 PM
@ciscoIPPhone hah
I think we need a control group though.
@Caleb: You might want to take a look at youversion.com. While I don't think it has the same study material as the site you linked, it does allow you to view the scriptures in quite a number of different translations, and linking to specific verses (or ranges of verses) is very simple.
There's also nice iPhone/iPad reading apps (and maybe Android, too, but I don't know), though that's apart from what you were talking about
@adamrobinson yes, I like the iphone app for that.
5:21 PM
If a moderator votes to close, is the question immediately closed? I'm finding that the period between when the first VtC is cast and the question is actually closed is a critical opportunity for the original asker to redeem and correct the question.
@Richard Yes; mods have a "supervote" that takes effect immediately.
Same goes for deletion, and flagging things as "Spam" or "It does not belong here".
Thank you, good to know.
No problem. ♪
@GraceNote ...do you do that note because of your name? :P
5:29 PM
@ElendiaStarman No
@GraceNote Aw. T'would have been a wonderful humorous self-reference... :P
Well, I like the association as it's pretty easy, but they're both independent constructs not determined from one or the other.
@GraceNote Ah, I see. :)
6:22 PM
@AdamRobinson Yes, thank you. I've actually used it quite a bit it's a nicely done site, and use their Android app. They don't have the study tools / Greek / Hebrew cross reference stuff though. Or at least didn't last time I checked.
@Richard That's true, but sometimes even if a mod doesn't step and the question gets fixed the fact that votes exist creates a follow-the-leader scenario and the question gets closed anyway. Just stand by to reopen if a question has already been fixed and is a candidate. Being closed is not a death warrant, it's a down-time to work on the question before being reopened (or deleted if it's unsalvagable)
@Caleb I think that's an excellent way to look at it: down-time to work on the question.
I'm having trouble with this question:
Q: Will a Christian be affected by curses?

JamessChristians believe that Jesus saved us by His blood. Since God is the only true God and through Jesus we have victory over Satan, it is claimed that we do not have to fear on curses. But I hear many others says and even written books saying curses have effect on our lives and we need to deal wit...

Am I wrong in thinking that it's off-topic?
The intent of the question is all types of curses, specifically black magic, voodoo, etc. This doesn't seem to be the place to discuss curses from other religions.
Does the faith actually purport that voodoo and such is actually a real magical force?
@Richard I wouldn't have said so but its' badly worded. It's a question about authority and what Christians fall under. It's really the same problem as with this issue: christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/1209/…
@Richard Never mind how other religions view curses, what authority/kingdom/realm to Christians fall under and how much can any other spiritual power affect us?
I think it's on topic but entirely lost in the wording of the question.
@Caleb I think this is a bit better question. But even still. Is this the community that could authoritatively say what power other religions have?
@GraceNote The position of the asker seems to think that curses have some sort of power. The position from Christianity is that only God has the power and anything else is like talking to sticks or demons.
I find it slightly funny that there are three "No" answers to my question "Could jesus have sinned?" but not one of them has more than one upvote... why don't these guys vote for each others answers?
6:34 PM
@Richard Assumedly demons do possess some measure of power? I hope I'm not coming off as argumentative, just on a curiosity note here.
@Richard: IMO, "black magic" falls into one of two categories: Pure superstition, or demonic activity. In the latter case, it's very on topic.
@Flimzy Actually, that is kind of funny. Competitive natures, probably.
coopertition > competition
In the sense of "Does demonic activity affect Christians?"
@flimzy they probably all posted 'NO', then read the 'Yes' answer and upvoted it.
6:34 PM
@GraceNote Actually, that's another excellent question.
@Richard We're actually in a horrible position to answer anything at all on this site, I'm not sure how this question is different.
@Flimzy Maybe they actually understand that votes aren't just a party cheer and they didn't think that was the best way to defend something!
It seems to me that if the question were worded better, it would make sense. "What does Christianity say about the power of black magic?" "What types of curses could apply to Christians?", etc.
I upvote lots of competing answers but I also downvote answers that I agree with if the logic or premises or whatever are faulty.
Or, like some people I could name (El...) they could just be out of votes.
@Caleb: I'll go with that... it certainly gives them more credibility :)
@Richard: I don't think I'd be opposed to a new title... but I'm not sure what purpose it would serve. Anyone looking for info on curses and Christianity would find either the current title, or one of your proposed ones. And I don't think it changes the nature of the answers that would be provided. So I guess I'm not sure entirely what you're getting at. I guess this is my long way of saying "I have no opinion" :)
@Caleb :D
6:45 PM
OK, when I look at the question, the body is actually fine. It's the title I was getting hung up on. I fixed the title and I feel less stressed out about this now.
I have yet to run out of votes on a single day.
@Flimzy I have only once or twice NOT run out and that was an oversight :)
@Flimzy Same here as Caleb. :P
/me returns
I guess that means my votes are more valuable than yours!
Too bad they don't count for more rep :P
Is this too speculative? it's an honest question I've wondered about for a while....
Q: Do we know there are only three persons in the Trinity?

FlimzyA followup to the various answers provided to this question: The specific concept of 'trinity' isn't found spelled out in the Bible. Instead, we have deduced from various scripture verses that there are three distinct persons contained within the Godhead. Do we know there are only three person...

6:59 PM
@Flimzy I don't think it's too speculative. I think it's a fascinating question!
Okay.. whewh
@Flimzy Not too speculative, but too ungrammatical. "trinity" means "three" (c.f. "tri" like in "triangle" "tricycle" "triple" and so on) -- you're going to have to call it something else if you posit a number other than three
@HedgeMage: Yes, I realize that... I changed it to put Trinity in quotes.
I could say Godhead instead... but I think fewer people will know that "Godhead" means "Trinity" (in the traditional three-person view of God)
Godhead? I've heard the Trinity referred to in that way, before.
I do use the word Godhead in the question itself
If we think it would be better to retitle the question that way, too, I can.
7:01 PM
Agreed, it might be a bit confusing.
@Flimzy Actually, I like the question title as "Trinity". Google will pick up on it and most people are more familiar with "trinity" than "godhead".
for what that's worth. ;)
Okay, I'll leave it as it is, unless/until someone else complains...
@Flimzy I don't really care, if I did I'd have edited instead of heckling you in chat :P
@HedgeMage: Well thanks for the heckling then... hehe
7:20 PM
Q: What is the significance of adding "firey" to Ephesians 6:16?

El'endia Starman Ephesians 6:13-17 (NLT)  13 Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm. 14 Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of God’s righteousness. 1...

This is gonna be my shot at the Self-learner badge. :P
@ElendiaStarman: That sounds like a challenge... the question is... should I try to keep you from that badge by providing an amazing answer myself... or by VtCing? :P
@Flimzy -_-
@Flimzy LOL. ;)
@HedgeMage Touché
Sorry @Flimzy I haven't fixed up that answer on your question yet but I did just get to fixing this one, which references yours, so I think yours might be up next.
7:35 PM
@Caleb: yay
Q: What level of intimacy is generally acceptable for unmarried couples from the standpoint of the Bible?

PaperjamPre-marital sex is generally considered part of sexual immorality, [1] as such we should abstain from it as we do other sexually-immoral acts. [2] But what does the Bible say about other levels of physical intimacy between unmarried partners? [1] 1 Corinthians 7:2 [2] Acts 15:20, 1 Corint...

Duplicate of this?
sounds like a dupe to me, but I haven't read the entire question yet
Hy folks!
yeah, I think it's a dupe
@userunknown Hello there and welcome!
7:39 PM
Hi @userunknown
@userunknown howdy
Hi @ElendiaStarman, Hi @Flimzy
Hi @DTest
@userunknown: What brings you to our humble [blows trumpet] chat room?
A link on the top of the page. I thought: Maybe there is some discussion going on about my closed topic, why it was closed, but it isn't, afaik. What brings you to this chat, @ElendiaStarman?
@userunknown I'm always in the chat if I'm online. :P
7:47 PM
@ElendiaStarman: And now you have forgotten why. :)
@userunknown I don't think I ever had a specific reason for being in chat. Other than to discuss current events (of the site)... :P
@userunknown Are you talking about this one?
Q: Is praying for the wealth of the Stocks Exchange blasphemy?

user unknownIn the news I saw an American politician praying for growing stock market prices. Isn't this considered blasphemy, according to Christian beliefs, like praying to the golden calf?

@Richard I wasn't aware of another question of his that has been discussed to pieces... :P
Yes, I see there are a lot of Ques.... - oops - they aren't automatically inserted, live, but historic too?
@Richard: Not exactly - it had two more words. :)
@userunknown: What is it that you're trying to learn by asking this question?
7:50 PM
That's being discussed, but not here on chat. It's over in meta:
Q: The question with the name in it

DJClayworthThis question is not only closed, but locked, so we can't even comment on it. The only reasons this question was closed was that it named a specific person. That does detract from the question, but it didn't invalidate it, and the name has now been edited out. So really the question should be re...

@userunknown: Do you want to know if "Perry" is a sinner? Or do you want to know if praying for the stock market is a sin?
Every time I see "Perry" I think of the platypus from Phineas and Ferb... -_- :P
wait, where's Perry?
@Richard This is obviously a poke of some kind, but I don't have the key which unlocks the secret.
@ElendiaStarman Huh. I think of Perry Mason.
7:53 PM
@userunknown There hasn't been any discussion of it in chat that I remember but it was gone over pretty well on 3 different meta threads. Was something missing there?
@Richard Lol. Well, I'm young(ish), so... :P
@Caleb "the key which unlocks the secret"? I was trying to help him improve his post.
@caleb wow, there really is a third question on it in meta.
@Richard I've never seen you link your own verse references using watchtower. Just curious.
@userunknown If you want it open again we can probably do that, just flag it for one of the moderators with a note that you understand the name issue and are willing to let changes suggested by whoever edited them stand so it can be made into a question the whole community thinks is valuable.
@Caleb OOoh, I see what you mean. No, it wasn't meant to be an attack. I just like to promote different viewpoints. Here's an example: christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/82/…
8:01 PM
Hey guys, unrelated question: I'm thinking about posting a question that asks for verses that support or reject the various views of millennialism. Would this be closed because it's a list question even though the list is (should be) pretty small?
@Richard I remember that Q, I was actually wondering if there was a connection. The LDS site has a pretty slick interface with nice word cross references.
@Caleb What messes me up is that I'm neither LDS nor Jehovah Witness. When I try to ask questions from that viewpoint to gain better understanding of their doctrines, I sometimes mix the two up.
@ElendiaStarman Ya that's bigger than you think and the 17.458 sides don't understand how the other sides interpret the verses very well so it's unfair to ask for multiple POV. I would break it down much farther.
@ElendiaStarman I think we've already had that question, and it's been closed
@Richard I noticed :)
I get their doctrines cross sometimes too.
I had a lot of Mormon friends when I was a kid and studied it some, but recently I have more contact with JW's. It's hard not to scramble them sometimes.
Since I've been hanging otu here I've started to get Islam and LDS cross wired too. Not good.
I made a couple good Mormon friends shortly before I came to Mexico... they were the door-to-door missionary types.
They told me I was their favorite person on their route, because we could have intelligent conversations about faith.
I've never met a JW that I know of. I've just gotten their literature on my door occasionally.
I dated a JW for a while. Very sweet girl. Horrible home life. I'm sure that's completely unrelated, though.
@richard just don't ask a question about it
I think there is a question about questions (that is not a meta question) just waiting to be asked based on what I just did here but I'm not sure how to ask it.
8:10 PM
a question about questions?
sounds intricate
Sorry, just had to make the joke... :P
@Caleb: I don't understand the name issue, and I will not pretend that I do. But I can respect that the majority of moderators don't like to see the name - however, I guess that topic needs further discussion, because I guess it isn't of much help if I omit the name, but describe the politician, so that everybody, who knows, will know, whom we're talking about.
@ElendiaStarman LOL!
8:14 PM
@userunknown: I think the issue is that we can discuss whether praying for the stock market is a sin or not without knowing who did it--or even THAT it was done.
@userunknown: By adding a name, you're no longer asking about the action, but about a specific person... which is "too localized"--IOW, it's impossible to know HIS intentions to know if HE was sinning.
well said
@userunknown: If you want to know "Is Perry a sinner?" the question is off-topic for this site.
@userunknown: If you want to know "Is X action a sin?", then ask that... and leave the names out.
@userunknown: Does that make any sense?
@userunknown: If you want to know something else entirely, and we're all misreading your question, then please help us understand what you're wanting to know.
@userunknown It's not just the moderators. As far as I can see it's the entire community. This community is not about pointing fingers and people and calling names, it's about Christianity. If you want to ask about Christianity fine just ask that. This is note a political name calling forum.
@userunknown I think @Flimzy's set of options are pretty clear. If you are trying to ask the first question it is out of scope of the site. If you want to ask the second question, it is improved, not weakened, by the use of a private case study. If you want something else you have to explain yourself because all you've done is try to argue for the first option which we all agree is off topic/not constructive.
I'm not interested in pointing on somebody - I'm interested in the question on how you view instrumenting of religion for doing a political campaign, involving praying for the Wall Street, as if the Wallstreet is a value on its own.
Therefore I made the connection to the Golden Calf.
@userunknown Then take our word for it, leaving out the name and just leaving the sample is a better way to ask that.
8:21 PM
If I ask 'is it a sin to pray to the golden calf?' everybody will agree - it's trivial.
@userunknown Yes, but you're still targetting the act, not the actor
If I ask, whether P. is a sinner, everybody will agree, because according to Christian believes, every human is a sinner (beside the known exceptions).
@userunknown The Golden Calf wasn't a money making proposition for the Israelites by the way, that's a non-connection on that specific score, although the general "idol" connection could be there because it's all through Scripture.
The calf is a competing idol, yes, and the Israelits spent their private gold to make it. Yes. I mentioned it already in comments on meta.
@userunknown: I suggest a new question, then, along the lines of "Is public prayer for political gain a sin?"
@userunknown: Still without mentioning names.
8:25 PM
The question, whether this is a good metapher or not can't be made without dropping names - that's the reason why I used the name. I'm not further interested in the person P.
I don't understand your fears about using the name for something, that person made in public, which is known by most persons reading here.
@userunknown A better metaphor can be made in that context without dropping names. You don't need that, and it won't fly on the site.
@userunknown Wait...why is the metaphor important? I thought you were simply interested in whether P's action was a sin or not.
@ElendiaStarman: I don't understand why everybody seems to think that that is my question. Maybe that is your question?
@userunknown: I think you need to clarify your question greatly. I still don't understand how the golden calf even remotely relates to the question.
In my opinion, the christian doctrine says, that only God knows whether you permitted a sin or not. And for humans on earth, we can deal with vialating our laws, but sins aren't our business.
8:29 PM
@userunknown: Perhaps what might be throwing people off is that you seem to be asking about the stock exchange and related stuff as opposed to the golden calf.
The insistence on keeping the person's name in there makes it seem like that person being a sinner is important, which is probably why everyone is under the impression that your question is "Is Perry a sinner?"
@userunknown: Okay, I'm not sure if I agree with your premise or not... but putting that aside.... I don't see how that's even close to what you asked.
@userunknown: Are you asking if humans can tell whether other humans have sinned?
Well, the Golden Calf is soemthing the people spend their money to, and they made it the most important thing. Isn't that obvious? That's why I wanted to discuss the topic on the board.
@GraceNote: Please don't repeat it again. Scroll up.
@userunknown You asked: "I don't understand why everybody seems to think that that is my question."
@userunknown: I can see a connection between stocks being an idol for some people the same way the golden calf was an idol. What I don't see is how this relates to prayer, or Perry.
8:34 PM
Well, not literal asked but point is, my intent was to explain the scenario to help aid in understanding.
@userunknown: Can you re-state your question here, as plainly as possible, so we can try to get to the core of the issue?
@Flimzy: No. I don't want to discuss that. That is more a premise. I don't expect somebody else to do this premise, but if people could judge on each others sins - why would they need god?
@Flimzy: Last answer was to your question wider above ^^
@userunknown: I kinda feel like you're trying to ask 8 unrelated questions at once... and every time you try to explain it, a new question pops up. I'm really trying to understand... I'm sorry that we're not communicating effectively.
Well - maybe from the other side: If I perform prayers for bread, I'm asking for a core, valueable thing: Human life.
But asking for climbing stock markets is like asking for a main winning in the lottery.
So is your question: Is it sinful to have selfish prayers?
8:39 PM
It is not a decent, humble question, but challenging.
If that is your question, then just ask that. And leave out the stock market, and the name of the american politician.
Asking for health can be seen as selfisch too - but health is a core need - isn't it?
@userunknown: Ah, perhaps you are asking something along the lines of "At what point does selfish prayer become sinful?"?
Or "What makes a selfish prayer sinful or not?"
So for me it looks very absent minded, to ask for the SE-market to grow. And like an inversion of values - the real God is already the SE-market. God is only a tool. And that is the reason to call it blasphemy..
@ElendiaStarman: Can you please stop asking for sins?
@userunknown: I think I understand what you're asking now. Although I still think that the name of the politician is completely irrelevant to your question.
@userunknown: @ElendiaStarman is only trying to understand your question.
@userunknown: So far you haven't actually ASKED your question here... you just keep talking about it.
8:44 PM
@userunknown replace 'sin' with blasphemous then
@userunknown: This is why we keep trying to rephrase your question, hoping to help you find the right words.
@userunknown: If you don't want us to keep suggesting ways to phrase your question, I suggest that YOU tell us what your actual question is.
If I omit the name, some will guess it. They will argue from what they know from the news. The rest will depend on the facts I tell them, and not recognize, that I'm talking about a concrete incident. This will lead to a split discussion.
@userunknown We can deal with the details later. What's the core of your question?
@userunknown I would argue that a concrete incident would make the question 'too localised' for the purpose of the SE site and would need to be generalized.
But I guess, everything beyond 'Is X a sinner? Is Y a sin' is off topic and too hard to ask. "What is your question!" - What did I tell the last 50 sentences? My english isn't very well, but I didn't knew it is soo bad. I'm sorry.
Keep the question closed.
8:50 PM
@userunknown Your English isn't that bad, actually. Pretty understandable. The problem is that we don't know which one of several options is your true question.
What do you mean with 'true question'?
@userunknown: You have brought up a great number of points: Idolization of the stock market. Public prayer. Prayer for the stock market. Selfish prayer. Rick Perry. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.
@userunknown: Yet you have yet to tell us concisely what your question is. You just keep talking about tangents related to your question.
@userunknown: I'm sure it's clear in your mind what your question is... but we have no idea.
@userunknown "Is X a sinner" is rather off-topic is what the whole hullabulloo was about, last I checked.
So if "Is X a sinner" isn't the actual question you want answered, then your question isn't doomed from the get-go
(on the phone)
Rather, we have a whole lot of data to work with to construct the actual question you're seeking. We just need that construction to happen.
8:59 PM
@GraceNote not sure that one's been decided meta.christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/245/…
seems like the top 2 voted answers contradict :D
@DTest "Is X a sin" is fundamentally different from "Is X a sinner"
@gracenote gah, reading comprehension fail. You're right.
Think of it like in a debate - your target is a position, not a person.
my eyes took off the 'ner' part of your statement. it is friday!
"Atheism is the default position" has 666 views
9:03 PM
@a_hardin Wow. creapy.
@a_hardin LOL.
@a_hardin How many times did you hit refresh to make that happen?
@ahardin: Did you see the time that I had 666 rep? :P
9:04 PM
@Caleb I just happened to be scrolling through the list
@ElendiaStarman Actually, I remember that.
@ElendiaStarman I had 666 at one point, too... I was scrambling to find something deserving of a downvote
@a_hardin Hehehe. :)
Well, time to go to a baseball game. have a good one
Now I'm burned out. After every second sentence I was interrupted 'What is your question' and 'Do you want to know whether P is a sinner.' I said 'no' and the next person asked, whether I want to know if he is a sinner.
Then you have strong objections against me writing the name, but here in chat, everybody uses the name without problem. My impression is, that you prefer simple questions and simple answers of the form: "Yes: Joh X, Y" and "No, Deu N, M". Please don't feel insulted, but I'm tired now of repeating myself.
9:17 PM
@userunknown: We don't have the same standards for questions here that we do on the main site. If you want to ask "Is X a sinner?" here, go ahead...
@userunknown: so it's fine to talk about specific people here, etc.
@userunknown People got that idea in their head because you reverted the edit several times and kept bringing up the issue of the name on meta. We've been trying to understand what your question really is if it's really not that.
@userunknown: And the issue is not that we want "simple questions"... the issue is that we don't understand your question.
@userunknown: And you seem to be more interested in arguing about your question than actually trying to clarify it.
People closed the question before the editing of the name started.
Aye, but we only locked the question because of the editing.
@userunknown: Can we forget about who closed the question in what order, and can you just tell us WHAT IS YOUR QUESTION?
9:20 PM
Well - I tried to answer the question, and after 20 or so sentences, the only idea you became, was: "Is P a sinner" - shall I start from the top? What is unclear?
@userunknown: Yes, start from the top.
@userunknown: Yes, start at the top.
I cite myself: `I'm not interested in pointing on somebody - I'm interested in the question on how you view instrumenting of religion for doing a political campaign, involving praying for the Wall Street, as if the Wallstreet is a value on its own.
Therefore I made the connection to the Golden Calf.`
Is this unclear? Hard to understand?
It is more clear. I think it still needs some work.
@Caleb: I can't believe you'd give such a "terrible" answer!
@Flimzy Sorry :(
9:29 PM
@Caleb: Of course I'm still waiting to understand why it's terrible...
At least it wasn't terrible enough to earn any down votes
I really wonder if 'terrible' is just a poor translation
@Flimzy It's not half as terrible as the one I gave before that. @JonathonByrd's troll told me that "I note a complete and utter lack of scriptural references. No, I don't need them, I just mention that because I seem to remember that you prefer them, usually. So, it's a bit... let's call it "interesting'" (Emphasis his).
@Flimzy That could be actually.
Nope, not so much.
sounds like a misunderstanding of fearing God
Q: What is the "fear" of God?

CalebThe book of Proverbs, and several other places in the Bible, mention the "fear of the Lord". Proverbs 9:10 (ESV) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight. What is "fear" in this context? What does it mean to fear the Lord?

You beat me to it.
9:34 PM
@Caleb Hoo noes...
A: If we are saved by grace, then why does Jesus say we must be baptized in both spirit and water?

Jonathon ByrdYou are Saved by Grace Alone. Yes, you are saved by grace alone. There is nothing that you could do in order to get into heaven without God's grace. It is by God's Grace that He will save you and give you all of the things that He promises He will. Because God is so faithful, we can rely on the...

Hope you get a conclusive answer on that one. We had a mighty debate / discussion / thing on English the other day about that fear.
boy those answers always take me forever
(Part II of the 2nd edition of the question)
The calf is a competing idol, yes, and the Israelits spent their private gold to make it.

Well - maybe from the other side: If I perform prayers for bread, I'm asking for a core,
valueable thing: Human life.
But asking for climbing stock markets is like asking for a main winning in the lottery.
It is not a decent, humble question, but challenging.
Asking for health can be seen as selfisch too - but health is a core need - isn't it?
@JonathonByrd I'd +1, but... :P
9:36 PM
So for me it looks very absent minded, to ask for the SE-market to grow.
And like an inversion of values - the real God is already the SE-market. God is only a tool,
to make it grow. And that might be a reason to call it blasphemy, from a Christian viewpoint.

People don't come together to celebrate their community, or to praise the lord, but to praise the
Stock market. And the whole campaign is in itself only a vehicle, to make a politician popular, a
marketing instrument.
^ That was part 3.
@Flimzy Ya but I was kind of sloppy. I fixed it up a bit.
So, three separate questions.
@GraceNote Link?
@Caleb It was in chat, about a month or so.
I've actually completely changed my ideas on this one in the last few years. It will be interesting to see how people describe it.
9:39 PM
I believe it was about the following phrase some... somewhere.
@GraceNote EL&U chat creates spools and spools of logs! I might look for that someday tho.
@Caleb Couldn't you just use the search function?
@Caleb Technically the whole thing sprung from this message, but the specific phrase in question was:
in English Language and Usage, Aug 25 at 15:19, by KitΘδς
@MrShinyandNew安宇 It's a quotation. "A man without hope is a man without fear. A man without fear is a man without faith."
Ouch, the OP accepted an answer that had a disclaimer that it wasn't an answer.
I wanted to take that question with "eisegesis"
9:43 PM
@Caleb: Yeah... that sounds kind of "terrible"
@ElendiaStarman Have you ever hung out in that room? I think they keyword stuff their chat lingo just to throw google off the scent.
@GraceNote Heyyy...I was in the right place! [pumps fist] :D
@Caleb Actually, I pretty much never hang out in that room.
@Caleb They're "the Incomprehensible Room" for a reason.
@ElendiaStarman I do sometimes. They deserve their tagline.
Fun folks tho.
@ElendiaStarman Nicely done! I just searched "fear hope faith" and figured the relevance search would guide me well.
9:47 PM
@GraceNote I actually searched "fear of God" and that worked rather well.
That question makes me wish I could down-vote acceptances
So we just had an OP that 1) asked for a verse to back something (we don't know what) up, 2) rejected the idea that were was no verse to do that, 3) accepted a verse that doesn't say that, 4) then rejected a verse on a related subject as being invalid based on 'personal opinion'. Wow.
@Flimzy I was thinking the same thing :P
That makes me really sad. And not encouraged about where this site could go.
And It's almost 1am and I need sleep so I'm going to have to end on that note for the night.
G'night all. Stay in the Light.
@Caleb G'night! :)
10:10 PM
We're approaching 666 users...
@Flimzy LOL. :P
10:40 PM
Lol. Mason Wheeler has 99 answers and a problem isn't one of them! :P
@ElendiaStarman ...the same guy posted a +100 bounty on the same question after awarding it to Caleb? o.O
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