/dev/chat - 2014-10-25

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2:36 AM

hi all, my question unix.stackexchange.com/questions/163639/… is put on hold as being too broad. I looked and re-looked at the question and didn't think it was too broad. The question I asked was a simple one, was there any bug-tracking system which Linus and his band of meery men (today known as subsystem-maintainers) use to file bugs, keep track of discussions of bugs and therein. @maxschlepzig @slm @Anthon please re-look.

@shirish the issue is that without a statement of the involved parties (Linus in this case) you won't get the correct answer. Everyone can guess, heck I will do it now: essentially there wasn't. People just sent mails to Linus and he tried to fix them.

reject pls unix.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/66351

3:24 AM

@shirish Seems like a reasonable question to me. Voted to reopen. Did you have a good time in Kerala?

@Braiam Actually, I think people who remember the Linux kernel from its early days would know. One way or the other.

1 hour later…

4:41 AM

Had a great time. Will be posting the experiences on the blog.

@FaheemMitha ^

5:00 AM

@shirish Great.

1 hour later…

6:29 AM

Anyone using autotools here? Or cmake?

2 hours later…

8:14 AM

@FaheemMitha I have used both but in a rudimentary manner.

3 hours later…

11:31 AM

@mikeserv your sed skills are awesome. Someone said 'sed is an outdated one. Do only the basic search and replace operations through sed. If your sed need to add h, p , labels then go for an another tool.' What's your opinion for this?

2 hours later…

1:03 PM

this Q/A seems a discussion

@Pandya No, the OP is simply confused because ls -A was downvoted in the linked post. He wants the answer he has received (it was posted as a comment first)

ok I misunderstood (may be because answer looks like comment)

@Pandya True. Also, the OP asked for "best" but the underlying question seems to be ?Is anything wrong with ls -a" which is fine.

1:54 PM

Is it me or is this unclear?

0

Q: Dash equivalent of self-redirection of script output

In Bash you can redirect current script's output: exec > >(logger -t my-awesome-script) But this is Bash-specific and doesn't work in Dash. How can I make it work in Dash, or possibly in both?

bash shell-script dash

@terdon This seems to be a solution.

@Ramesh That's not a solution, it just suggests that the OP use another shell. That's no help with dash.

The question is "How do I do X with foo" and your answer is "Don't use foo".

oh got it. I will move this suggestion to comments. Thanks @terdon.

@terdon as ling as he explains why foo isn't reliable, and maybe propose an alternative I think is fine to answer "Don't use foo"

@terdon Also, he is asking how can I make it work in both shells.

So I agree with what @Braiam says here.

2:08 PM

@Braiam Yes, but this is not the case here. He is using dash and is asking how to do something in dash or, preferably, a portable syntax. "Use bash" is not an answer, "that's not possible in dash" might be.

@Ramesh Yes, but you are not answering that either. You're just saying "this is possible in bash". He knows that, he's asking how to either do it in both or at least in dash.

note: I didn't read either the question or the answer

@Braiam suggestion: perhaps you should?

:)

@Ramesh the OP wants to redirect the output of all subsequent commands through logger. I have no idea if this is possible in dash.

@shirish Ok.

@terdon I am also not sure. Referring to this material.

@Ramesh ?

2:21 PM

@terdon I am checking if there is any difference in syntax between bash and dash redirection.

@Ramesh Redirection is not the problem here, process substitution is.

@terdon wow did not see 2 superstars had posted the answer :)

@Ramesh Hardly! I don't know the first thing about dash, I just searched the manual and saw no mention of process substitution :)

@shirish have you read the 2010 Autotools book?

@terdon Is mikeserv not allowed in chat room here?

2:25 PM

@Ramesh Of course he is. If a user is suspended, you can see that on their chat profile.

chat.stackexchange.com/users/111508/mikeserv

Compare to this user who is suspended:

chat.stackexchange.com/users/58869/alex

Can anyone imagine a scenario where this would be useful?

0

Q: How to launch GUI app (in Ctrl+Alt+F7) from tty (Ctrl+Alt+F1)

I've successfully login to GUI mode. I want to launch GUI apps from tty (Ctrl+Alt+F1) into GUI mode (Ctrl+Alt+F7) How do I do that? I am asking this question because if sometimes there is some problem with GUI (especially problem with launcher and unable to launch terminal from shortcut) or whil...

command-line display tty

If you need a terminal and can't launch it from the GUI, if you then drop to a tty you may as well do whatever you need to do from there directly. O_o

@terdon, if the GUI is not coming up is it still possible for the applications to be launched?

@Ramesh I guess so. It might be running but you have display issues for example. In that case, of course, the graphical terminal will still be useless.

@terdon nope

most of the things I see people wants to do aren't useful, nor necessary

or asked in interviews :)

@Ramesh *damn interviews....

3:27 PM

Any suggestions on improvement here?

4:11 PM

@Braiam so true 8-)

4:43 PM

Apparently nobody wants to talk about autotools. :-(

Question: are autotools on topic here? I see the autotools tag does exist, but with a grand total of 2 questions tagged with it. One of them by me.

Historically, autotools questions have been directed to SO, of course.

Can someone please let me know what is wrong here?

@FaheemMitha Yes, as long as you are referring to using them as a *nix tool and not to problems compiling your own code. That's my take anyway.

By the way, congratulations on reaching 10k! When did that happen?

@terdon A week or two ago. I thought you congratulated me at the time. Maybe not.

I guess we are up to 51 people with 10k plus now. Since Ramesh has joined the club.

Assuming club is the mot juste.

@FaheemMitha I made it to 52.

A good way to parse XML is to use CL. Since the underlying syntax is essentially the same.

@Ramesh ?

4:50 PM

upvoted this user to join the club

Oh, the other Stephane.

I actually don't understand that XML question. What is he trying to do?

@FaheemMitha what's wrong with the suggested solution? I am all ok with down voting. But without a reason, it really annoys me :(

If he wants two different files, just write two different files.

@Ramesh Since I don't understand the question, I don't have an opinion on answers. And I didn't downvote. But you already know that.

@FaheemMitha I know that. But I want to improve the answer if at all there is something wrong with it.

Does the poster mean, given a file in the first form, he wants to split it into two pieces? Because, if so, it is really badly written.

@Ramesh Understood. I don't really have an opinion, except your method looks a little complicated. But I'm allergic to bash scripting in general. I know you guys love the stuff.

4:57 PM

@FaheemMitha It's so annoying when someone downvotes a correct solution without specifying any reason.

@Ramesh I agree.

@Ramesh I did not downvote but it's true that your answer depends on many things being unchanging. It will beak if any of the tags have multiple lines, if there is a leading space in the opening tag line, if there are any other files with a name starting with x... It is also untidy since it creates tmp files and does not remove them. Why don't you try and use something like xmllint?

@terdon thanks. I was expecting some constructive feedback like this. Sure, I will look into those stuffs and try to fix it :)

It will also break if there's a blank line anywhere in the file. Might be OK if the blank line is the last one.

5:14 PM

Agreed. A proper parser is the way to go here, I think. Having said that, this is apparently not correct XML anyway, so maybe the poster should fix his question first.

I just asked about this on #lisp and someone there also remarked that it is not correct XML.

2 hours later…

7:10 PM

I was just reading the WP page about Voyager 1. Voyager 1, launched in 1977, is still operational and communicating with NASA.

7:49 PM

Is there an easy way to get from a site to its entry on Area 51?

1 hour later…

9:07 PM

Only beta sites, afaik.

9:23 PM

0

Q: History of Linux kernel development question, what's next?

So we've reopened this question - Git, Linux kernel and ticketing/bug-reporting - and I'd like to help it get as thorough an answer as possible. I've been adding links to resources that I'd like to get incorporated into the eventual answer, but I feel that among the community that I'm aware of, t...

@slm i'd suggest a simple message to the kernel development list. the chances are that someone from over there will wander over to offer a brief answer. It doesn't cost them anything.

Linus himself has been known to reply to such questions.

I'm trying to get others to make this happen 8-)

@slm Make what happen?

post a request there.

Shall I do it then?

Does a user need to register to post an answer?

@slm Whatever you want. I could do so too. You're a moderator, it might look slightly more official. If you don't want to, i could.

Does anyone know the kernel mailing list address? and do you have to be subscribed?

A kernel developer might not want to be bothered to register. If registration is not necessary, might be worth mentioning it there. Unless you want them to register.

9:45 PM

@FaheemMitha - I've never participated on that mailing list so, though I could ask, it would seem better if we had someone that was a "regular" asking for guidance here. I can put my mod badge to use if others think it will help but was a little uncomfortable just going in there and asking about this cold.

reaching out to Linus might be a better approach, but we should get the Q in much better shape before doing so, IMO.

@slm Oh, you want someone who has participated in the kernel mailing list? The closest thing I have to a contact is the Debian kernel maintainer. Now, what's his name?

Ah, yes, Ben Hutchings.

But really, I think there is nothing wrong with a cold question. Worst case, they ignore it.

Can we get the Q to be a bit more concise? It meanders a bit too much still to me.

@slm Sure.

I've exchanged email with Hutchings like 3 times, I think.

I could ask him about protocol/etiquette if you want.

Though, from what I know of the kernel ml, it's pretty much the Wild West there.

9:59 PM

There I edited the Q

3

Q: Git, Linux kernel and ticketing/bug-reporting

We all know that Linus Torvalds created Git because of issues with Bitkeeper. What is not known (at least to me) is, how were issues/tickets/bugs tracked up until then? I tried but didn't get anything interesting. The only discussion I was able to get on the subject was this one where Linus share...

linux kernel git history

BTW, I hate the title

How do the Linux Kernel Developers track changes?

something like that?

@FaheemMitha ^^^

@slm No, that makes it sound like version control.

How about "How did the Linux kernel track bugs in the Early Days?"

dammit

That seemed better

Or even: "How did the Linux Kernel project track bugs in the Early Days?"

Since, the Linux Kernel, not being a sapient being, can't technically track anything.

That reads good too. I'll go add that

I'm looking to see if I can ask him via google+

changed

@slm Ask who?

10:06 PM

linus

@slm Oh. I would personally just put out a general request. There are a fair number of active kernel devs who were active this. Any of them could answer them. I'm sure they are all busy, but it is flattering to be asked such things in a way. Kind of like Linux groupies.

Personally, I'd like to see more historical questions on this site.

I'm writing the share to him right now via G+

Ok.

Hows this sound

> Hi Linus. I'm one of the moderators on the Unix & Linux Stack Exchange site. We recently got this question that seems like it would benefit the best from "The One". I realize you're super busy but it would be hugely appreciated if you could give this question any attention.

@slm "The One" makes him sound like Neo. How about: "the founder of the Linux Kernel project."?

10:13 PM

trying to appeal

You don't want to embarrass the guy.

@slm Whatever you think best.

I mean, he probably puts on his pants one leg at a time.

Also, "give this question any attention" is a bit vague. You could suggest some possibilties. Could he answer on his google plus page, perhaps?

What is this Google Plus thing? Google's answer to bloggers? Don't they already own a blog site?

> Hi Linus. I'm one of the moderators on the Unix & Linux Stack Exchange site. We recently got this question that seems like it would benefit the best from the actual founder. I realize you're super busy but it would be hugely appreciated if you could provide everyone with the back story of how development of the kernel was managed in the early days.

@FaheemMitha

@slm Better, imo. But you could suggest posting on G+, or publicly writing to the Linux mailing list. He does both of those already, so wouldn't be much extra bother for him. Unless you prefer not to sound pushy.

It could be misinterpreted if you say - please do us this favor and then follow it by - here's how you could do it.

Oh, definitely include the link for unix.sx.

Where's @derobert when you need him? I'm sure he would have an opinion.

yeah I was going to post the link to the Q too

Me asking is kinda implying that we'd want the A written here, no? Seems like if we bother to ask him to do this, that we're short changing him by telling him not to post it here himself, no?

that would get him to make an account here 8-)

10:28 PM

@slm Maybe.

> Hi Linus. I'm one of the moderators on the Unix & Linux Stack Exchange site. We recently got this question that seems like it would benefit the best from the actual founder. I realize you're super busy but it would be hugely appreciated if you could provide everyone with the back story of how development of the kernel was managed in the early days.

That's assuming he doesn't have an account here already. There are like 60,000 people registered. Maybe a Linus Torvalds got lost in that crowd.

> If you're too busy or don't want to take the time to post an actual answer, feel free to post it via the LML or G+ and we can spend the time posting it on your behalf. What ever's easiest for you!

didn't see his name here

@slm Sounds good.

Maybe expand LML.

yeah

otherwise reads OK?

10:32 PM

@slm yes, reads Ok. "benefit the best" is a little awkward.

i know

re-write it for me

How about: "We recently got this question, and it seemed like you, as the founder, were the best placed to answer it." or "in the best position".

or simply "the best person to answer it".

"seemed that you" is also a possibility.

Hi Linus. I'm one of the moderators on the Unix & Linux Stack Exchange site. We recently received this question, and it seemed like you, as the founder, would be in the best position to answer it. I realize you're super busy but it would be hugely appreciated if you could provide everyone with the back story of how development of the kernel was managed in the early days.

If you're too busy or don't want to take the time to post an actual answer, feel free to post it via the Linux kernel mailing list or G+ and we can spend the time posting it on your behalf. What ever's easiest for you!

@slm Looks good.

Hey, this is a pretty dumb answer. Probably deserves more down votes.

4

A: Who wrote the "Linux kernel" (Linus Torvalds and his team)?

Richard Stallman, father of the GNU Project Linus Benedict Torvalds, the author of Linux OS(Linux version 0.01 was released by mid September 1991). The real story is : Year 1991 : DOS brought by Bill Gates was reigning the world of personal computers. The other player in the personal comput...

I guess downvoting would be kind of mean, though. He obviously means well.

But mentioning Stallman in this context is pure mis-information.

I see Gilles politely corrected him.

Msg sent!

10:41 PM

and calling Linux an "OS" is misleading too. It might not be entirely incorrect but under a modern view it is confusing..

@slm Great.

@slm you emailed Linus? This will be interesting!

You did tell him to read the FAQ right? ;P

@Seth True. There are too many people who do it as it is.

shared it with him privately via G+

And those are the ones that don't talk about the Ubuntu Operating System.

10:42 PM

he can write whatever he wants, we'll "deal with it"

I wonder if he is aware of the existence of unix.sx.

There is a good documentary on Youtube about the subject. The narrator's English is a bit annoying and you'll need to turn on the captions (some bits are in Finnish) but I found it very useful. — Seth 25 secs ago

I saw that a couple of weeks ago. The information was pretty good.

isn't this Revolution OS?

Wait, Linus lives in Portland? I drove through Portland twice this year! (four times if you count return trip)

@Seth Yes, you didn't know that? I guess you aren't really a Linus groupie. Shame on you!

@slm No.

10:47 PM

yeah

@FaheemMitha No I'm not :)

@Seth :-)

Is this our Gilles?

behindkde.org/gilles-caulier

G+ suggested that I know him.

It's possible.. iirc he doesn't use a regular desktop environment though, so kinda odd seeing him on KDE.org

@slm Sounds likely.

10:49 PM

but the location and such sounds right.

I wasn't looking, G+ threw this name at me.

@slm Curious. Wonder why?

I does so based on your social graph

Braiams and I crossed somewhere else too, github? and we were both like WTF?

I threw me in as a suggestion to him

@slm Huh. Those social sites can be scary sometimes.

yes they are

10:52 PM

If that is our Gilles, I don't understand how he gets time to be married (with a 3 year old) and still do all that SE stuff.

I guess I need to grow more arms.

Ok, off to sleep, or to try to, anyway. Later, guys.

I'm married w/ 3 kids

Here's a question. Would you guys like some of the questions AU closes as EoL? The ones we'd be sending you would mostly be "how do I install x version y on this really really old release?" and such.

I'd rather not have them, but let everyone else speak up too. Or better yet, post a meta Q. A couple of links to sample Q's would be helpful too.

We do get EoL Q's and we've answered them more times than not, though

I don't have any examples right now, but if I do get some good ones you guys can take a look :)

@Seth Not exactly the kinds of questions we're thrilled to get here.

2

11:04 PM

yeah they're useful but often times I dislike them b/c we're enabling a situation where it would be better if the user upgraded

@terdon ^

Cool, that's kind of the situation on AU as well.

The ones that aren't specific we keep, of course, so you'd only be getting the really hard specific ones :P

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