English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Jasper Loy

00:07

@Cerberus WTF!

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Dream on.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy A converted Muslim extremist killed a guard and fired shots in the parliament hall of Ottawa. Then another guard killed him.

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus His God will not be able to save him from hell fire.

Cerberus

There is little to be saved from once you're dead...

@Robusto That app of yours, schools are not going to be happy!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I hadn't heard that he was a Muslim extremist

Jasper Loy

00:21

@Cerberus Well, I still believe in rebirth, though I know you don't, lol.

I have been thinking really hard whether to use lol or LOL, hmm...

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Wait, perhaps I misread.

That bloke who ran over soldiers was a Muslim extremist, but perhaps this one wasn't and I mixed things up.

> A Canadian soldier guarding the National War Memorial in Ottawa was shot and killed Wednesday, and a burst of gunfire minutes later terrorized Parliament and sent lawmakers scrambling for safety.

Sources identified the gunman to NBC News as Michael Joseph Hall, 32, a recent convert to Islam who was using the name Michael Zehaf-Bibeau.

No, I was right.

Jasper Loy

Each time something like this happens, people will quote verses from the koran to show that Islam is a peaceful religion, completely ignoring all the violent verses. They should just quit talking about religion when they don't know what they are saying.

Robusto

@Cerberus It's not my app. I just heard about it and shared it here.

Cerberus

The shooter. — Alleged Ottawa gunman: What we know so far about Michael Zehaf-Bibeau

Robusto

@JasperLoy See? You can make intelligent conversation.

Jasper Loy

00:24

@Robusto You just realised? See, you are intelligent, lol.

Cerberus

@Robusto I know. But nothing is more satisfying than blaming the messenger.

Robusto

@JasperLoy Aww, you went and spoiled it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@cerb I didn't say you were wrong, just that I hadn't heard that.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Of course right after it happened speculation was rampant.

Cerberus

00:27

I just wanted to double-check, even though I thought I had already double-checked.

Naturally.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Weird, my phone is now vibrating when the orientation changes.

Cerberus

You didn't upgrade, did you?

> A Zehaf-Bibeau was charged in Vancouver in December 2011 with robbery.

He pleaded guilty in February of 2012 to the lesser charge of uttering threats, for which he was sentenced to one day in jail in addition to 66 days credit for time served.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Upgrade to what?

So it seems to be the keyboard that is vibrating.

Cerberus

Huh.

I don't know, to some new candy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I guess the keyboard vibrates when it opens, and if it's showing when you rotate the phone, it closes then opens again. I'm going to try turning vibration off

The new candy isn't out yet, but I plan to upgrade right away when it is.

That's one of the reasons I buy Nexus

Gotta go...

Cerberus

00:37

Hmm.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But many of your apps won't work properly!

Bye...

Cerberus

01:42

The Hungarian government wants to tax internet providers € 0,50 for every GB transmitted.

The ruling party is a kind fascist populist party. But this law seems dumb: surely people will hate this, and it will only net about 65 million in taxes yearly!

Robusto

02:03

@Cerberus What? That's retarded.

Cerberus

@Robusto Extremely.

Imagine paying €25/month on top of what you pay now.

And people in Hungary earn far less than people in the West...

What is perhaps the most ridiculous about it is that the cost price of a GB of data is in the range of € 0,05. It would be a 1000% tax.

Cerberus

02:30

Sorry for posting this.

medica

03:32

1

Q: What's the meaning of "pillage and plunder"?

In the last episode of "Once Upon a Time" (S04E04 - The Apprentice) there was this dialog: Girl: Well, I don't pillage and plunder on the first date, just so you know. Man: Well, that's because you haven't been out with me yet. I didn't understand meaning of this phrase: "I don't pillage ...

another help vampire.

tchrist

De esos no hay fin ni cabo, o rabo digo. :)

The actual trouble with that would-be question is that it is asking for our interpretation of a metaphor.

Beyond the lack of theories presented based on his previous research.

medica

04:03

Indeed. There appears to be an endless supply.

Cerberus

0

A: What's the meaning of "pillage and plunder"?

First of all, I wish to use my first sentence to apologize for the rather unfriendly comments from certain users on this site, to which I, at least, bid you welcome. The phrase pillage and plunder has to my knowledge no special, idiomatic meaning that would fit here. I think that is your answer. ...

medica

So many users lately with 100 or less points.

Ice Boy

The school system must be boring them :-)

medica

0

Q: This is a short thank you note. Please help

It was my great pleasure to talk to you and ** at yesterday's ** info session. I really appreciate that you kept my resume! I believe my confidence in communicating with people, solid academic background in** and **, and more importantly, my working ambition will make me an ideal fit for investme...

word-choice grammar

Now, this is a polite and reasonable new user.

The kind of new user I certainly hope sticks around. We don't need more entitled help vampires here, though some would welcome them. Not me, man.

It's not the way to attract good users to this site.

Ice Boy

help the ones you want to stay

@medica and ignore the ones you don't want around

tchrist

04:16

@Cerberus Do I really have to sort out rapio from rapto? It’s past my turns-into-a-pumpkin hour. :)

Cerberus

I would have mentioned only rapio.

But it is trying-to-sleep time now.

tchrist

me-too-time

Ice Boy

nobody liked my response :(

Cerberus

@IceBoy I agree.

Bai!

Ice Boy

later

RegDwigнt

10:59

@Cerberus you sort of contradict yourself there. If it will net only little money, it means nobody actually ever uses the Internet in Hungary, so it will obviously affect only very few people.

If you taxed €0.50/GB in Germany, it'd get you trillions within the hour.

But anyway. It's not like Hungarians haven't been welcoming worse shit with open arms for years.

Matt Эллен

what have they welcomed?

RegDwigнt

If nobody protests, it's okay. And if somebody protests, there are solid laws in place to silence them.

Matt Эллен

sounds like effective government.

RegDwigнt

@MattЭллен you not up to date on Hungary? Basically nobody knows why they're still in the EU. They are basically a fascist state at this point.

Matt Эллен

oh. I'm not up to date on Hungary

RegDwigнt

11:04

They bitched so much about Soviet occupation, only to go on and install an even worse dictatorship themselves.

But it's okay because the new dictator is not a Georgian but a Hungarian.

Matt Эллен

I see

apparently the U.S. don't want to be allies anymore

with Hungary

RegDwigнt

Yeah that's the most recent development.

But the history goes back years.

Read up on Orbán.

There's no free media, no freedom of speech, the constitutional court has been basically dismissed, and now he won't even accept the very existence of any opposition, no matter how powerless.

Matt Эллен

seems like he's done an about face compared to how he got into power

RegDwigнt

He also likes to play the Putin card a lot, "if you oppose anything at all, you are a spy on the payroll of secret West powers".

@MattЭллен he most recently actually said he wanted to build, and I quote, "an illiberal state".

Matt Эллен

??

RegDwigнt

11:10

washingtonpost.com/opinions/…

> In an extraordinary speech delivered July 26 before an ethnic Hungarian audience in neighboring Romania, Mr. Orban proclaimed his intention to turn Hungary, a member of both NATO and the European Union, into a state that “will undertake the odium of expressing that in character it is not of liberal nature.”

Ice Boy

sounds ill

RegDwigнt

> Citing as models Singapore, China, India, Turkey and Russia, Mr. Orban added: “We have to abandon liberal methods and principles of organizing a society, as well as the liberal way to look at the world.”

Not to mention they started putting up actual monuments to fascists.

Revisionist history everywhere.

The thing is, just like with Russia, Turkey, and China, most of the population is actually on board with the shit.

And while the EU is deeply offended and very not amused, it doesn't seem like they can actually do anything, much to my surprise. They keep having debates about it, the last one just yesterday, and that's all they do.

Matt Эллен

crazy

Ice Boy

that's all we do here :D

RegDwigнt

Nobody was ever kicked out of the EU, and I wonder why. Not Hungary for removing democracy, not Greece for cooking the books, not the UK for never actually being in the EU at all by any stretch of imagination, and for that matter not Germany or France for failing to meet the Maastricht criteria.

Everybody gets in, nobody gets out. That can't work out.

Matt Эллен

11:17

yeah. doesn't make a lot of sense

Ice Boy

they just wanted something to back the Euro currency

Matt Эллен

I guess the EU isn't what the EU thinks it is

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Yes, there is a contradiction.

Hungary has 7.2 million Internet users. Let's say on average two people share the same connection, that's 3.6 million connections.

That means they would have to pay about €1,50/month per person, which means they only use 3GB per person on average.

RegDwigнt

Apparently nobody informed them there's porn on the Internet.

Cerberus

I do wonder why Hungary has been in such a bad state for the past couple of years: before Orbán, things seemed to be going in the right direction, more like the Czech Republic.

@RegDwigнt Nor Netflix.

RegDwigнt

11:32

►

Jasper Loy

No need for EU. All problems will be solved when I rule the world, like I said.

Cerberus

Ew.

RegDwigнt

To Jasper! The solution to, and cause of, all of life's problems.

Jasper Loy

Thank you. Your second part means I discover the cause of problems.

RegDwigнt

My second part means that it's a reference.

►

Jasper Loy

11:42

This sounds like the 4 noble truths, lol.

Cerberus

Quite so.

Jasper Loy

I only need 335 points to reach 2000 and then retire, lol.

Mariah Carey is singing here tmr, but I am not going. Not in the mood for a concert.

Matt Эллен

you should stand at the ticket office and tell them that you're not in the mood to go

Jasper Loy

I can do that 5 min before the concert. They might give me a free ticket, lol.

Matt Эллен

to annoy you?

Ice Boy

12:03

some of the high pitches she sings are annoying

Robusto

@RegDwigнt India? Really?

Perhaps he mistakes inefficiency for illiberalism.

@JasperLoy You left out the lol that time.

Robusto

12:20

0

Q: "That will have to" vs "Which will have to"

I am not really sure if this sentence is translated correctly into English : Access keys have been researched and the implementation will be done in a future sprint, that will have something to do with GUI. Is the use of the word "that" in this sentence correct? Can I, or should I, exchang...

phrasing which-that

Dupe of:

79

Q: When to use “that” and when to use “which”?

When is it appropriate to use that as opposed to which?

pronouns conjunctions relative-clause which-that relative-pronouns

How is it condescending to judge someone uneducated who is not . . . well, educated? @tchrist didn't use stupid or illiterate or any of a dozen other adjectives which might fairly be applied to someone who doesn't know that word. In fact, you might consider educating yourself as to the meaning condescension by looking in a dictionary. There is a patronizing quality to the term, meaning that it is an implicit assumption of another's inferiority most often seen in a positive statement, not a criticism. — Robusto 1 min ago

RegDwigнt

12:56

Ordinary people don't understand a word of English. Millions of ordinary people don't even know English exists.

Jasper Loy

And millions don't even have a life at all. That's why I should rule the world.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt I would deem such people uneducated, not ordinary.

It is the exceptional individual who does not know English exists. Amazon tribesmen, perhaps. Aborigines on islands unaffected by commerce. Not the ordinary run of the mill human being on planet Earth, c. 2000 CE.

RegDwigнt

But the aborigines are the only people I know of...

There are others?

I see your game now. You are setting this up to label me uneducated.

Robusto

If the foo shits . . .

RegDwigнt

Then it is in the woods. On an island. Unaffected by commerce.

Robusto

13:05

Or in a room . . . dimensions unknown . . .

Jasper Loy

It is very interesting that pee=urinate, poo=defecate, burp=eructate, and fart=flatulate.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto As long as he's catholic.

@JasperLoy you misspelled it is "most very not interesting in the least at all".

Happens to many people. It's a complicated string.

Robusto

. . . with Mahler's 2nd playing in the background . . .

►

Jasper Loy

I think you should all listen to I Vespri Sicilani Sinfonia by Verdi. Best orchestral piece I ever heard.

RegDwigнt

You're posting a scherzo? You must be joking!

Robusto

13:07

@RegDwigнt Just go with the flow. Quietly, if you please.

RegDwigнt

Also, the conductor doesn't move for the first 49 seconds. It's a wonder they manage to play anything at all.

Jasper Loy

Zubin Mehta is conducting here next month, maybe I should go watch.

RegDwigнt

Better idea: maybe you should go listen.

Robusto

Speaking of which, I tried watching Roman Polanski's latest opus on Netflix. It is in French, and the subtitles are so out of sync with the dialogue even I could tell.

RegDwigнt

The one with just two people in the theatre?

Jasper Loy

13:08

I watched the movie Defiance on TV. It is very very good.

RegDwigнt

I've still not seen that one.

@JasperLoy or that one.

Jasper Loy

@RegDwigнt Watch Sommersturm first, lol. Best gay movie ever.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt He doesn't move at all. It's orchestral dressage. Degree of difficulty is higher, meaning potential for a better score.

RegDwigнt

@JasperLoy I refuse to watch the best gay movie until I've watched the worst gay movie. And I can't watch the worst gay movie until Transformers 6 is out.

@Robusto huhuh, you said "potence to score".

Jasper Loy

Watching Sommersturm made me fall in love with Germany, somehow.

Robusto

13:11

I would have thought Triumph of the Will, but . . .

RegDwigнt

He does move a little in one place between 1:35 and 5:56. You'll only not miss it if you don't blink.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt You see double entendres where there are only singles.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto huhuh you said member.

Robusto

I don't remember that. I disremember it, or dismember (for short).

RegDwigнt

You sure it's a dis and not an es?

Beware of enharmonic confusion.

Robusto

13:14

Si.

RegDwigнt

Ha!

Pun intended. Did you see what I did there?

Jasper Loy

I am making good progress with Maria, lol. Perhaps this time I have really found Maria, lol.

Robusto

D'oh!

Did you see what I did there?

RegDwigнt

We need signatures in this chat. So I can make mine "Did you see what I did? Did you? Didyoudidyou? Give me your face I'll shove it into it."

@Robusto I saw a pun, but I am still not sure it was intended. You will have to inform me accordingly.

Robusto

This question has almost 20K views. I sincerely wonder why. Why? That's more than the "tenses and aspects" question put together.

@RegDwigнt Don't be koi. Carpe diem!

RegDwigнt

13:17

I remember the title. I think Joel tweeted it or something.

But it was a while back, and I doubt it was 20k.

So we'd need some kind of chart.

@Robusto did you just call God a goat?

Robusto

A goat is more useful than a god.

Jasper Loy

God anagrams to dog.

Armani anagrams to marina.

RegDwigнt

It's tough to be a goat, tread where mortals have not trod,
Be deified when really you're a sham.
Be an object of devotion, be the subject of psalms.
It's a rather touching notion, all those prayers and those salaams.

@JasperLoy Jasper Loy anagrams to Fran Drescher.

Robusto

And deified is a palindrome. So what?

Ice Boy

Why do they sacrifice goats to satan?

RegDwigнt

13:21

@Robusto Tim Rice does that to people.

Robusto

How else is Satan gonna make souvlaki?

Duh.

RegDwigнt

Well. With humans?

Jasper Loy

Yesterday, Kris agreed with me. Today, Joe Blow agreed with me. This is a miracle.

Robusto

I'm still holding out.

Jasper Loy

+1 The fact! Yes, that's what is stressed. — Kris 23 hours ago

RegDwigнt

13:22

@JasperLoy another possible interpretation is escaping you.

Jasper Loy

that's the correct answer. let's close this simple question with a good answer. — Joe Blow 2 mins ago

RegDwigнt

I thought we only closed complex questions with bad answers.

Robusto

Your triumphs are so exciting and prodigious, Jasper. I'm glad you're choosing to share them in chat with us.

RegDwigнt

I am still waiting for Lenin to agree with me so I can post it in this chat.

Jasper Loy

I will try to like Kris and Joe Blow from now.

Robusto

13:24

You would like to Blow Kris and Joe?

RegDwigнt

@JasperLoy This is the size of the lot of good you are going to receive.

Also, you can only try to like them if you stop +1ing crap questions. Quid pro quo.

Jasper Loy

Now I need 300 more points to reach 2000 to retire, lol.

RegDwigнt

That reminds me. I need 300 more lols to retard.

Jasper Loy

Yes, laughing is good for the body and mind.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Too late.

RegDwigнt

13:29

I'll still take the 300 more just in case.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwigнt 'lol'.repeat(300);

RegDwigнt

You don't want to do that. That prints:

Jul 1 at 0:04, by RegDwigнt

Matt Эллен

oh

I wish I'd know beforehand

RegDwigнt

Your wish has been granted. But the image has already been printed. You should have wished for that to not have happened instead.

Robusto

300 (film)

300 is a 2007 American fantasy war film based on the 1998 comic series of the same name by Frank Miller and Lynn Varley. Both are fictionalized retellings of the Battle of Thermopylae within the Persian Wars. The film was directed by Zack Snyder, while Miller served as executive producer and consultant. It was filmed mostly with a super-imposition chroma key technique, to help replicate the imagery of the original comic book. The plot revolves around King Leonidas (Gerard Butler), who leads 300 Spartans into battle against the Persian "god-King" Xerxes (Rodrigo Santoro) and his invading army of...

RegDwigнt

13:34

No, sorry, that movie is just one long lol. In slow motion.

►

Robusto

'An old argument with me is that the true religious force in the world is not the church but the world itself." —Wallace Stevens

RegDwigнt

"Gromit, that's it! Cheese! We'll go somewhere where there's cheese!"—Wallace

Matt Эллен

'lol' — Jasper Loy

RegDwigнt

Jasper Lol for short.

Robusto

@MattЭллен He only says that when he's dead serious.

RegDwigнt

13:38

Well, why would you wish lots of love in jest?

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Hey! Remember what happened the last time someone said "jasperlol" in chat.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto no. I wasn't around. And I plan to repeat just that.

Robusto

You weren't around? Were you asquare?

RegDwigнt

Hand over the royal teas.

Jan 24 '13 at 22:17, by RegDwighт

I could try mauping asquare for a change.

Robusto

You stole that one from me via time travel.

RegDwigнt

13:40

Idiots plagiarize. Geniuses steal.

Robusto

Theft is the sincerest form of flattery.

RegDwigнt

Grand flattery auto.

Matt Эллен

hate is the sincerest form of love

RegDwigнt

Scissors are sisters.

Matt Эллен

bananas are pyjamas

RegDwigнt

13:41

Last night I saw an elephant in your bananas.

Matt Эллен

why were you wearing my pyjamas?

RegDwigнt

I am not an elephant. That's a hippo. You shouldn't have quit ornithology after just three semesters.

Matt Эллен

it's for the birds

RegDwigнt

@Robusto actually unlike Leo Dee, I pulled off inception. Look whom I was replying to back then. QED.

@MattЭллен hey mr tambourine man.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The ACLU is suing in Kansas to have gay marriage legalized. In response, this brief has been filed with the court:

user4550

13:54

I felt giddy with the sudden rise to fame....this use of "giddy" is the same as "heady"?

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 that is so poorly proofread that I feel physically incapable of reading it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt tl;dr: the straight couple are claiming that they have a property right in their marriage which is protected by the Fifth Amendment; i.e. the gays are literally trying to steal their marriage.

RegDwigнt

Well, if you can steal a song, then I don't see why you can't steal a marriage.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, it would be the same song, but a different marriage.

RegDwigнt

Either way, you don't need to make sense to win in court.

Sense is not a prerequisite for anything. That is how God created this world.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:58

Senselessly, right.

That explains a lot of the book of Genesis, akshully

RegDwigнt

And He saw that it was good.

Matt Эллен

Unruh? Is that someone's name?

Johan Larsson

@tchrist saw otter tracks today

RegDwigнt

Every time I write code, I see that it is good. It's only five thousand years down the line that people start noticing bugs.

@MattЭллен no.

This is an Unruh.

Unruh (Uhr)

Die Unruh ist ein Bauteil eines Uhrwerkes. Sie dient als Gangregler für Kleinuhren, also vor allem für Armbanduhren und Taschenuhren, aber z. B. auch für Reiseuhren. Eine Unruh besteht aus einem Unruhreif und einer Unruhspirale. Vorläufer der Unruh war die Unrast. Die Unruh ist ein präzises, aus Metall gefertigtes kleines Schwungrad, das an den Wellenenden Zapfen zur Lagerung hat. Eine Spiralfeder bildet zusammen mit der Masse des Rades ein schwingungsfähiges System. Die Genauigkeit der Unruhschwingung bestimmt die Ganggenauigkeit der Uhr. Die Idee der Verwendung der Unruh zusammen mit eine...

So according to Wikipedia, the Unruhs' predecessors were the Unrasts. No wonder some of them turned out gay.

Matt Эллен

so why are they claiming anything about gay marriage? they look like inanimate objects

RegDwigнt

14:02

Because animate objects typically have brains and thus don't claim such garbage.

Matt Эллен

I see. such contrarian things

RegDwigнt

Checks and balance wheels.

Matt Эллен

ah. of course

user4550

14:19

@MattЭллен am i right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Those two words don't have exactly the same meaning

RegDwigнt

Oh is it the International Non Sequitur Day yet?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Eggplant.

user4550

no no

heady means to make you feel disoriented

so...i thought

whats the difference, Mr shiny

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, heady is normally used to describe the thing that intoxicates.

But I see that at least one dictionary also lists it as a synonym of giddy

RegDwigнt

14:25

I would start this answer by "Needless to say, you are wrong" if I were you. — Pouya 2 hours ago

Good thing he is not me, then.

Matt Эллен

heady vs giddy

RegDwigнt

Giggidy.

Matt Эллен

giggidy giggidy

@user4550 they could be

RegDwigнt

But I've killed enough time for today. Let me do something else. Lators.

Matt Эллен

CU

tchrist

14:28

@Reg 4N XL8Rs ❤ EZ words — & H8 2C ÞE words 2XL8 like μC4S.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt It starts after the sun passes the International Non Sequitur Date Line.

Yay! It's Non Sequitur Thursdays!

Yesterday was Name the Day Wednesdays. Today it's not that.

user4550

thank you

I shoved past him...does this mean I first pushed him and then bolted off?

tchrist

otters++

Mitch

@user4550 Bolting is not implied (which is like quickly running away)

tchrist

Zeussing.

Mitch

14:37

@MattЭллен That must be the married couple's last name. There is a sizeable immigrant German population in the US (late 19th early 20thc)

Matt Эллен

ah. ok

thanks

Mitch

Or maybe they're loud.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

This is an interesting article. a Freedom of Information law led to the NYC taxi company releasing "anonymized" taxi data for 2013. However, it turns out that this data is easy to deanonymize and can lead to some interesting analysis: research.neustar.biz/2014/09/15/…

user4550

@Mitch but is it like you first push the guy and then you walk off ?

Mitch

@MattЭллен Germany had a 'last name' choosing era in maybe the 15c? Unruh seems like they were at the end of the line.

"#1 you get Sonnenfeld, #2 you get Lindenbaum ... #32767 um... It's either Unruh or Schweinsteiger that's left, which do you want?"

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 anonymization is hard.

Matt Эллен

14:41

I wonder who got ruh

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Yeah.

Mitch

@user4550 as you're walking by you push the guy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Mr. Unruh's nemesis. They were named together.

Matt Эллен

fated to forever foil each other's plans

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but also, it takes only a little bit of cleverness to sidestep what are reasonably good measures.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:43

@Mitch You mean, naively good-seeming measures.

Mitch

@MattЭллен I think Mr. Ruh is not much of a complainer, but Mr. Unruh is really bothering him with all the late night partying.

Matt Эллен

Mr. Unruh must keep the balance, after all

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Naive... well... the data itself is anonymized in the sense that as a closed set there's nothing that tells you anybody's identity. But The only minimally clever part is to use info -outside- of that data set. Which is hard to account for.

user4550

I see

thank you

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I'd say that it's fairly naive to assume that the data won't be combined with data from outside. That's the entire point of anonymizing: preventing the data from informing about the world outside itself.

Mitch

14:47

@user4550 It's a weird locution. Usually when shoving happens it is very deliberate. Like you're using two hands right in front of you to push someone.

So it seems weird that you would put extra effort into it (kind of mean) to push someone extra as you're going by.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think those are both true statements but the second doesn't follow from the first.

user4550

like you see this guy who is angry with his bro....this guy sees him coming from the other direction ...so as they meet, he shoves

Mitch

Usually people think of anonymizing as modifying the data, but not considering other data. One should do that, but that's not the usual process of anonymizing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch If I have a database of taxi rides from some planet light-years away or from some ancient civilization, it doesn't matter if it's anonymized or not because there is no way to use the information in the database to harm someone. But for a database about people who could be harmed, the harm comes when you combine that database with some relevant outside fact.

Mitch

@user4550 Sure, but that would be really weird in that situation to shove someone as you walk past them essentially ignoring them. You'd expect in your given situation that they'd be more confrontational.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Knowing that "Carl Smith" took a taxi ride from Soho to Houston doesn't mean squat. Knowing who Carl Smith is, and that his mistress is in Houston, is what makes it important to hide that it was Mr. Smith who took the taxi.

@Mitch That's the entire point though. It's naive to assume that just because you've changed the names in the DB that you've achieved anonymization.

Matt Эллен

14:52

so, what you're saying is: if you know someone took a taxi ride at a certain time, you can tell they took a taxi ride at a certain time?

user4550

but oxford gives this exampls

Mitch

@MattЭллен from the examples in the link, people were able to discover where people lived. I know you took a taxi at this time and place, and using the database, I can see when and where it dropped you off.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I agree with that entirely. I guess I'm saying is that though people think they can remove identifiers from a dataset, tey may need to do more (or rather, disclose less)

user4550

Woody shoved past him

Matt Эллен

@Mitch I see.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен No, you can infer the purpose of the ride, or the consequences. Example, in the article he discusses how you can figure out which people visit strip clubs, and how once your data-set has given you a narrow, "anonymous" data-point you can then use that data point to find out more about the person.

taxi-rides lead to addresses lead to real-names lead to facebook profiles

etc.

Then you can determine if Mr. Smith will be home on Thursday, or is that the night he's usually in Hell's Kitchen, visiting the strip club.

Matt Эллен

14:55

so there's no way to anonymise the data without making it useless

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Makes it easy to know when to rob him, and you've already virtually cased his place by looking at his facebook photos.

@MattЭллен well, that depends. But perhaps not.

Useless for what purpose, is the key point.

Mitch

Or maybe there were two or three taxis at that same time and place, but then there are only two or three places to target by other means using other knowledge (two taxis went to the Bronx but one went to the upper east side, and there was other evidence that the target lives there.)

Matt Эллен

well, if you release statistic calculated from the data, that's gone past anonymisation

if you don't have times and locations then you can't really use the data for anything

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Well, you can, if the times and locations are fuzzy enough.

but not too fuzzy.

Matt Эллен

but that's just aggregation so it's already gone beyond anonymisation

Mitch

14:57

@MattЭллен you can throw in random perturbations of the data, ones that will preserve the statistical truth of the whole set, but not about any of the individual items.

Matt Эллен

how? any perturbation will throw off the result of analysis

but maybe I'm just agruing semantics

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Well, not just aggregation. Aggregation can still reveal information. In another post the same person notes how if you have accurate aggregate financial data about, say, a neighbourhood, and you know when various people moved in or out of the neighbourhood, you could deduce their income at the time of the move, as the aggregate total changes.

Matt Эллен

but that's not the data we're talking about

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