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12:42 AM
@Patrick - when they suspend an account it shows a rep of 1
5 hours later…
5:29 AM
(away at another convention currently...) Can anyone think of a more confusing, yet actually fairly complete, manpage than sudoers(5)?
It uses so many words and many lines of EBNF to document what is actually a fairly simple format.
Oh, also, it appears the top level of the EBNF is missing.
And then of course you also see each time the ridiculous number of features sudo has, and wonder if it really ought to be suid root....
And wonder why with all those silly features, it can't do even simple regexps.
6:04 AM
@terdon @Patrick I did.
very much so.
2 hours later…
8:00 AM
adding inappropriate tags is more disruptive than any other, non defacing, edit :-(
8:39 AM
@derobert It is possible to submit bug report and patches even to sudo, I imagine.
Patching a man page requires writing groff, unfortunately.
6 hours later…
2:15 PM
@Anthon yup
3:04 PM
15K One privilege down, one (final one) to go.
3:23 PM
@Anthon - go anthon!!!!
@Anthon Whohooo! Only 5 to go!
@Anthon - there's a little help 8-)
3:42 PM
@slm thanx, but make sure I don't get serial upvote reversal like the guy braiam linked to yesterday
I only give a little. I generally exhaust my votes every day so am aware of the checks.
3:54 PM
How is it possible to serial upvote someone who has 8k reputation? I mean definitely there would be some genuine votes as well right?
@Ramesh don't vote for users, vote for posts
That's what I meant :) Definitely the OP would have upvoted this person when he answered some questions right?
@Ramesh I don't know the details (they're not public) but I think they check that a single user voted on many of the other's posts in a short time. As in, too short to have actually read and judged the posts they voted on.
4:37 PM
@slm, thanks for this link. I followed the instructions and I am able to reach outside world.
I believe I messed up something with my previous setup.
@Ramesh - glad it resolved your issue. If you want, can you pull that blog posts into an A on the site? That content is missing on the internet other than that page I've found. It would likely be a nice addition for others starting out with KVM 8-)
@slm, sure. I will do it. :)
@Ramesh - if you can't let me know, I can try and pull it in later tonight. We can do it as a community A if you want, or you can start it and I can help pull it together.
@slm you use qemu to get kvm?
I did originally
kvm makes use of a lot of qemu tooling
4:41 PM
@slm I will start the answer. Probably when you are free, you can verify the answer and may be add more if you feel it needs more. Also, we can make it as a community answer as you suggest.
the disk formats and such are all "borrowed" from the qemu project
I have no issue w/ leaving it your A, since you're doing the work, you can get the points, I was only suggesting it if you wanted to
Start it as yours and we can convert it if needed 8-)
I generally dislike CW since no one feels a sense of ownership.
@slm, I was thinking to give the answer since I can actually take the screenshots in my system :)
does anyone here use sinatra?
@Ramesh - yes by all means make that your own then
It's more meaningful that way since it ties in better with your Q
that's sinatra + ruby
5:19 PM
almost asked a duplicated of this unix.stackexchange.com/q/2179/41104
5:47 PM
@slm, I have put in the details as an answer. Please let me know if something else needs to be added.
5:59 PM
@Ramesh - looks good.
@slm thanks. Now, I have to read more about networking to really understand the nuances of subnet and things.
6:52 PM
@terdon It may be a little late but yes, this is what Anthon was telling me about my tag submissions :) I understand your point, my next submissions will be more appropriate to the SE guidelines ;)
@JohnWHSmith actually there's not clear guideline, but what everyones agree is that it should explain exactly how the tag should be used without failing into recursion
7:12 PM
@Braiam I was more trying to describe the item than the way it should be used on the sites. I didn't really think about that, but it does make sense.
7:45 PM
that timestamp @4:5X marked YST is pretty hilarious to me.
8:11 PM
@TylerMaginnis You should really tone it down with the “there's my way and there's the stupid way attitude”
@TylerMaginnis Be nice
1 hour later…
9:40 PM
@TylerMaginnis what Gilles said.
And what time stamp is that?
@JohnWHSmith No problem, it takes some getting used to. Thanks for the effort anyway :)
what is the difference between NAT and bridged network? It is little confusing.
@Ramesh Bridging connects two network links in as seamless a way as possible, as though it was a single link. NAT is pretty much the opposite of seamless: it modifies IP addresses in packets.
@terdon YST is a presumably Yukon Standard Time but I have no idea why it would be funny
OOkay, I just see "1d ago".
I've been thinking it might be a good idea to write some Q&As on network setup.
Things like "How can I set up a network so that machines are identified by name"? and similar.
Might be too broad I guess.
@Gilles so, with bridged network the guest machine will be in the same network as host, is it?
9:46 PM
@Ramesh yes
@terdon I think I have an answer about this, dunno if it covers all you intend to
A: How to make a machine accessible from the LAN using its hostname

GillesOn the Internet, including local networks, machines call each other by IP addresses. In order to access machine B from machine A using the name of machine B, machine A has to have some way to map the name of B to its IP address. There are three ways to declare machine names on A: a hosts file. ...

Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I was after, thanks. Maybe that's why I had not only upvoted it but also had it in my favorites.
@terdon, that's a great idea.
Should have checked first, that's what comes from musing out loud.
@Ramesh Yeah, I was thinking we should try and get some organized sets of comprehensive Q&As.
@terdon, actually we have very less questions in setting up of kvm as well.
@Ramesh I hear you're working on that though :)
9:51 PM
I think we need more questions/answers pertaining to the whole virtualization techniques.
that one is only tagged . Should it have others? ?
@Gilles Yes, at least.
Perhaps as well.
@Ramesh I was thinking we should set up some resources like this one using the info available on the site:
A: Reference - What does this regex mean?

aliteralmindThe Stack Overflow Regular Expressions FAQ If you want to truly learn regular expressions, then read Jeffrey Friedl's "Mastering Regular Expressions" from beginning to end (3rd edition, on Amazon) Quantifiers Zero-or-more: *:greedy, *?:reluctant, *+:possessive One-or-more: +:greedy, +?:r...

Q: Why does my regular expression work in X but not in Y?

GillesI wrote a regular expression which works well in a certain program (grep, sed, awk, perl, python, ruby, ksh, bash, zsh, find, emacs, vi, vim, gedit, …). But when I use it in a different program (or on a different unix variant), it stops matching. Why?

that's the question we tend to get, more so that “what does this regex mean”
@Gilles I wasn't thinking of regexes so much, I just used that as an example. I am imagining the "U&L networking FAQ" or "U&L text parsing FAQ" or "udec FAQ" etc.
But that's a very nice one, yes.
@terdon sure. I just did one community Q & A for setting up kvm.
9:58 PM
@Ramesh Cool! Very good work, +1 and thanks!
@Gilles doesn't grep use BRE by default?
all of the AT&T tool set uses the AT&T REs (grep, tw, expr...). Except for ksh, that toolset is rarely found outside of AT&T though. — Stéphane Chazelas Sep 7 at 14:16
Yes it does:
> -G, --basic-regexp
Interpret PATTERN as a basic regular expression (BRE, see
below). This is the default.
@terdon well, I got good help from @slm and my work was just adding the screenshots :)
@Ramesh So? That's still work! I don't know why you made that CW, you deserve the rep for it even if slm showed you the way.
@terdon yes, it does, and that's what I wrote in my answer
As Stéphane wrote, versions of grep with AT&T RE are rarely found in the wild
Ah, OK, I understood that comment to imply that grep is somehow part of the AT&T toolset, and that this behavior has survived into the GNU one.
@terdon I thought may be someone could pinch in future and modify if there is something wrong with the contents :)
10:01 PM
Fair enough.
Damn, this is what I get when I don't post my answer and instead go to dinner:
Heh, basically the same thing :) +1 to @Anthon.
is there a branch of biology that studies tissues?
Is DNSMasq another way to configure DNS just like BIND?
forget it actually no, is the structure of the tissues...
@Ramesh Yes. Dnsmasq is good for simple things, like your typical home network. BIND is good for complex setups.
@Gilles Thanks. So in cloud providers they use BIND, is it?
10:05 PM
it's like lynx vs firefox
Or is there any other sophisticated method for adding a machine to DNS in cloud environment?
@Ramesh they have to run a DNS server. BIND is the usual one.
@Braiam Yes, histology:
Histology (compound of the Greek words: ἱστός histos "tissue", and -λογία -logia "science") is the study of the microscopic anatomy of cells and tissues of plants and animals. It is commonly performed by examining cells and tissues by sectioning and staining, followed by examination under a light microscope or electron microscope. Histological studies may be conducted via tissue culture, where live cells can be isolated and maintained in a proper environment outside the body for various research projects. The ability to visualize or differentially identify microscopic structures is frequent...
@terdon hope you are right, anatomy fits too :/
@Braiam Depends on what you're looking for. Anatomy is more about the macroscopic level while histology goes deeper. It studies what things are made of while anatomy studies where they are.
10:51 PM
@terdon @gilles well, I have been told that my tendencies are rampantly superlative when I get drunk to provide support for users.
I'm installing Debian Unstable now so I can be free from the compulsion to use Linux through other people.
(I.e., users on here)
You get drunk to provide support or you get drunk while providing it? I mean, is being drunk a requisite or just an added bonus?
I only began to take that attitude when another user engaged in a puss in match with me about whether or not it's a good idea to replace the bash shell, so I told him to go use the per shell.
I sit and I spins.
It's a prerequisite for some of the questions you get here.
Anyway, just tone back the aggression. You've posted some nice answers and you seem to generally know your stuff, but we set high store by civility here.
Okay, I know how to be nice and follow community guidelines.
@TylerMaginnis If that's how you feel, don't touch those questions. We accept all levels from the complete newb to the full fledged guru here.
@TylerMaginnis Cool :)
10:55 PM
You should visit us on sdf.lonestar.org in the "pcom" mode sometime.
Anyone here use the Public Access Unix System?
They are a 501 (c) 3 out of Texas that provides access to a FreeBSD network with multiple nodes. It's how I learned to use Linux from a young age.
I wish you had more package management and distribution management questions. Software dependencies are sorta fun for me.
@TylerMaginnis i ran into someone who does something with that. i forget who it was
i think on #mercurial
maybe #lisp
@TylerMaginnis Ah, yes, I'd stumbled upon that once before but forgot. That's pretty cool, I often want access to a UNIX to check for compatibility.
@TylerMaginnis We have quite a few actually. Look into the tag.
Also and . Presumably as well.
And Ask Ubuntu have loads of package management stuff.
The best way to get better is to gain more experience. That's why I answer Q's here to the best of my ability. It is preferable to book learning, but a step below actually doing it myself.
yeah, come take a look at out apt and dependencies questions.
I see the general dilemma of breaking update ability on Ubuntu.
11:10 PM
@TylerMaginnis Tell me about it. I've learned more about shells and shell scripting in the last year than the 10 before that.
We also have packages and package management
@TylerMaginnis yeah, if you want to tinker download Virtualbox, create a VM, update it then create a snapshot.
Then you can tinker to your hearts content and if you break things just revert to the snapshot.
The last VM I used is headless
Somehow I feel like I am preaching to the choir :)
(well I'm not really "preaching" but you get the point)
I'm the only Linux developer at the company I contract at right now...
The use all this Peoria software there....getting them to comply With GPL wasn't easy to explain
$$ proprietary
In fact, they went through every developer on board and every friend to try to figure a multi disciplinary Linux project lol... they finally had to hire a real Linux dude for the job. XD
Even I, though... my knowledge is stunted. I feel that I should know more than I do at this point, but have really only started to learn at an accelerated pace this year.
@TylerMaginnis Feel free to flesh out areas that you know Q & A's to that are missing here in pkgmgmt or any area!
@terdon practice makes perfect 8-)
11:19 PM
Oh my god... I might have just fried my desktop
Nope just jiggly 24 pin
11:31 PM
@TylerMaginnis - if your system is capable you can install virtualbox and use linux via there if you don't have an actual Linux system.
I use that to answer Q's about Debian from time to time, though I switching to using Docker for that now.
Doesn't anyone know how to friggin search this site?
Q: Is there are difference between ;, | and &&?

DisplayNameWhen you want to run multiple commands you can use ;, && and | Like this: killall Finder; killall SystemUIServer, cd ~/Desktop/ && rm Caches Or: man grep | man cat For example. But, is there a difference between |, ; and &&? If so, what is the difference?

@slm I don't apparently. It's damn hard looking for the special characters. Have you found a dupe? I know there is one.
@slm I use google to search unix.stackexchange.com with the "inurl:" :p
@TylerMaginnis - me too
This one is close
Q: How exactly does `if $cmd ; then $cmd ; fi` differ from `$cmd && $cmd`?

mikeservIn an answer to another very good question I made the following assertion: According to my reading of the POSIX specs, the use of one or the other makes no difference from a parsing standpoint. POSIX specifies that &&|| lists are compound commands which means that the entire list must be read i...

@terdon there are 3 :(
@Braiam Do you have them?
11:43 PM
There's a diff there.
@slm Yeah, but he's also confused about the pipe.
";" terminates a logical line of code on Bash, "|" redirects output, and "&&" is more like saying RUN THIS, but IF THIS FAILS, DO NOT RUN THAT. And IF THIS RUNS, go RUN THAT NEXT.
He looks a bit confused.
@terdon - yeah I'm just annoyed that ppl are asking this, so we're gonna get 3*2*1 permutations of these in Q's?
so google each one for peat sakes
Sounds like we need a canonical one. Explaining ; and & and && and | and ||.
Q: Pipe output from one command to another command's non standard input

AvlaxisI would like to do something similar to the following: which someapplciation | cd outputfrompreviouscommand The command which provides a directory and I would like to be able to make that output my current working directory without using a programming language i.e. awk, bash, perl, etc. and to...

11:45 PM
I know that all those have been covered in various Q's so now we've recycled those answers into this one, just bugs me
Maybe another explaining < and <() and << and <<< as well. Don't we have one?
does anyone know a way to to tell debootstrap "download the smallest installation possible"?
Is this supposed to be more Wiki-Like or more Bazaar-Like?
Assuming there is a way.
@TylerMaginnis Wiki. Theoretically.
11:46 PM
@FaheemMitha just select the packages you want and exclude everything else
Q: Bash: logical operators precedence &&, ||

Martin VegterI am trying to understand how the logical operator precedence works in bash. For example, I would have expected, that the following command does not echo anything. true || echo aaa && echo bbb However, contrary to my expectation, bbb gets printed. Can somebody please explain, how can I make ...

You can strip the Debian Netinst to 300MB.
@slm that's a perfectly good answer though.
Q: Which one is better: using ; or && to execute multiple commands in one line?

don.joeyIn tutorials and how-to's I often see commands combined. For instance, sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install pyrenamer There seem to be four possible connectors: &, &&, || and ;. Though the & connector is clear to me (it sends a process to the background and leaves the terminal availabl...

@Braiam hmm. i just want enough to get a running system.
11:47 PM
@slm Yeah, but that one doesn't explain what they are, it assumes you know.
@slm not on UL ;)
yeah I'm not gripping about the A, just that we're producing the same thing 50 different ways
Yeah, I have an answer explaining the input ones on AU as well.
What do you mean by, "Running System?" Do you need to plug in a monitor at all?
I'd rather have these Q's funnel to well written and thoughout answers
11:47 PM
obviously a debian system needs some stuff or it will be crippled, but even in supposedly minimal systems, debian tends to install things that aren't strictly necessary
good gave me this AU one too: askubuntu.com/questions/334994/…
I could make this into a Q&A for us:
A: How to tell which parameter is being supplied to a command with a redirectioin operator?

terdonYou are using two different things here and should be using a third. Let's see: | : This is the pipe operator, it serves to pass the output of one process as input to another: foo | bar This runs the program foo and passes its output as input to the program bar. >,<,>> and <<: These are the ...

@TylerMaginnis If you answer them, the posters tend to ignore them if you actually try to expain something.
they just want to know what command to type, typically.
Q: Using bash "&" operator with ";" delineator?

JonI'm trying to write a command that's a one-line for loop containing a command that uses the & operator to put the command in the background: for dir in $(ls); do command $dir &; done Where & tells BASH to run command in the background. Yet BASH returns bash: syntax error near unexpected tok...

Q: How can one run multiple programs in the background with single command?

Rahul PatilHow can one run multiple programs in the background with single command? I have tried the commands below, but they do not work. nohup ./script1.sh & && nohup ./script2.sh & -bash: syntax error near unexpected token '&&' nohup ./script1.sh & ; nohup ./script2.sh & -bash: syntax error near unexp...

I'm finding these using just our SE search engine and the characters
I feel like some of these people are just trying to get us to do their job for them.
11:53 PM
@slm I'm writing a canonical one now. I'll explain |,||,&,&& and probably >, >>, <, <<, and <<< as well.
Almost like some of them got into a position for which they're not wholly qualified.
@TylerMaginnis Yeah. That happens.
Some of these smack of, "HELP ME DO MY JOB!!!"
@TylerMaginnis - yes that's the big beef I have there, 3 ppl are desperate to help this guy who's too lazy to search a bit to get his own answer.
You're on here everyday, though, right?
11:54 PM
@terdon title?
I guess I am, too, now.
jasonwryans calls them help vampires, and I've been guilty of helping them but the last month has been a surge in it and I'm growing tired of doing other's home work now.
@TylerMaginnis - I'm a moderator so yeah
@Braiam At the moment it's just "What do all these symbols mean after shell commands: |, ||, &, &&, >, >> etc?" but I'm open to suggestions.
I love helping ppl, but not spoon feeding them either. We're here to help people help themselves.
@terdon What are the shell operands and operators and what they do?
11:56 PM
@terdon - you might want to put in 2> 2>&1 perhaps, but we're getting more bash specific now
Or, you know... :(){ :|: & };: is always fun, but I guess telling them to fork bomb their shell is "against the rules" or something.
@slm the less the better ;)
We do not want dumping grounds either
@Braiam - yeah the heavy hitters are the ones that terdon's got
@Braiam Yeah, but that's part of the answer. If you know they're called operators, you know how to find out what they do.
@TylerMaginnis That one we have!
Q: How does a fork bomb work?

slm WARNING DO NOT ATTEMPT TO RUN THIS ON A PRODUCTION MACHINE In reading the Wikipedia page on the topic I generally follow what's going on with the following code: :(){ :|:& };: excerpt of description The following fork bomb was presented as art in 2002;56 its exact origin is unknown, b...


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