The Upper Room

El'endia Starman

00:00

What both of you guys said is quite true.

@Kalamane: Then again, we all knew this going into it... :P

John

Let's at least try to last longer then the Atheism site did! :P

El'endia Starman

...wait, there was an Atheism site in the first place? o.O

John

@ElendiaStarman Yes there was. It was shut down after a month or two.

El'endia Starman

...wow. Was it closed down because of lack of sufficient activity?

John

@ElendiaStarman I'm not sure, I didn't hang out there much.

studiohack

00:09

hey @John @ElendiaStarman

John

Hello @studiohack

El'endia Starman

Hello there studiohack!

@John: Well, if that was the case, then we probably don't need to worry about that. :P

wax eagle

00:44

@ElendiaStarman Don't let the initial burst fool you. New sites will often have a huge burst of activity in private beta, its a matter of continuing that activity once we hit public beta :)

El'endia Starman

True, but considering the contentious nature of most of these questions, I don't think it'd be hard to draw more people in...

After all, this is interesting stuff and people always love debates (although that can't really happen here)...

wax eagle

@ElendiaStarman right, the trick is going to be getting answerable questions as we continue.

El'endia Starman

Very true. We're probably going to need extensive moderation to keep the number of "bad" questions down...

wax eagle

@ElendiaStarman Yeah. I feel like there are a number of questions that if I had a diamond here I would have issued some warnings/closed outright, just because they are a bit too contentious or borderline

2

but we don't have much definition yet...so its hard to say whats really borderline

El'endia Starman

Well, that's what this private beta is for eh? :P
And the meta site, of course.

wax eagle

00:53

@ElendiaStarman Right. Meta is super important this week

El'endia Starman

@waxeagle: Iindeed.

*Indeed

wax eagle

@ElendiaStarman so what's your background?

El'endia Starman

@waxeagle: You mean with regards to Christianity or in general? Or both?

wax eagle

01:08

@ElendiaStarman christianity since thats the topic...in general is ok too :)

El'endia Starman

@waxeagle: Lol. Okay, I'm one of those people that have always been a believer. However, in the past several years, I've read multiple sciency books and as such I have a pretty strong factual basis for my beliefs. I do enjoy discussing topics contained to Christianity though.

sidran32

I didn't realize that there was a Christianity site in the works. Looking forward for it to go public. :)

wax eagle

@sidran32 yup, it just launched today

sidran32

@waxeagle I see, cool!

El'endia Starman

Cool indeed!

wax eagle

01:12

@sidran32 with any luck it will be public this time next week, although there is some precedence for sites sitting in private beta a bit longer for various reasons

sidran32

@waxeagle Ah, I see. Well I'll be keeping an eye out. :)

El'endia Starman

If and when it goes public, I am so sending a few of my friends to this site. :D

sidran32

:P

wax eagle

@ElendiaStarman gotcha, what theological base do you come from? IE I'm PCA meaning reformed typically hold to the teachings of Calvin and the Westminster Confession

sidran32

I find that there are few places (usually forums) online for Christians that spark the kind of open, respectful, and deep discussion that I prefer. So I have high hopes, here. :) That it will be heavily moderated may help.

wax eagle

01:16

@sidran32 hopefully we can provide that :). Plenty of folks on the wider network are skeptical at best.

sidran32

@waxeagle I'm sure. Though I am myself a Christian I do consider myself also a skeptic. I believe that Christianity and scientific thought need not clash, if each are approached rightly. Two sides of the Truth coin, in my opinion. :P

El'endia Starman

@waxeagle: The church I go to is Wesleyan, but I consider myself rather close to non-denominational. Other than that, I have no theological training beyond sermons, books, and my own thinking/discussions.

sidran32

Science was always one of my favorite subjects. If I didn't go into computers (which some could say is science/math anyway), I would have probably become a scientist of some sort.

El'endia Starman

@sidran32: You mean you're in computers but not in computer science? :P

wax eagle

@ElendiaStarman Not looking for training, just trying to figure out what the make up of folks around here really is. We have a lot of vocal catholics and seem to have a vocal JW or two. I haven't seen a Mormon yet, but they may be laying low for the moment. Hoping we have a solid mainline Evangelical presence as well...I know a couple of folks around here come from a reformed perspective, but we need some armenians around too..

sidran32

01:21

@El'endia I graduated in computer science. Though it is, really, a scientific mode of thought, it's not what's commonly considered "science" in the colloquial sense. But I guess I shouldn't worry about that here. :P

wax eagle

hey @CRoss

C. Ross

@waxeagle hello

wax eagle

@CRoss its been an interesting first few hours of beta

C. Ross

@waxeagle what did I miss?

El'endia Starman

@waxeagle: Well, you've got an Armenian here. :P

wax eagle

01:23

@CRoss Seems like Pacier is stirring up some trouble :)

sidran32

@waxeagle I've been waiting for the question, but I guess I'll say it. I'm a Catholic, myself. Born and raised, though in college, I was given the opportunity to deepen my faith and explore it more in-depth. Not due to the college, but due to the people I met. :)

El'endia Starman

@sidran32: Very cool! I myself am very interested in computers and math. I especially love combining math and Christianity... :P

sidran32

I keep in contact. One of them organized a regular Bible study and other events, which were always very good for discussion.

@ElendiaStarman Neat. :)

C. Ross

@waxeagle perhaps. I see that most everyone is laying into the hard questions

wax eagle

@CRoss yeah there have been some toughys...some I'm not sure what I think about just from a first read.

El'endia Starman

01:25

@C. Ross: And yet this isn't even a small fraction that will be asked.

*of what will be asked.

C. Ross

@ElendiaStarman noted

On that note, please let me know if I behave uncivilly. 'Night Brothers and sisters.

sidran32

Goodnight, @CRoss

El'endia Starman

G'night @CRoss!

John

Goodnight @CRoss!

Nathan Wheeler

02:51

-4

Q: When and why did the devil, or Satan, really emerge as a force in Christian belief?

The devil is not a character who appears obviously in any part of the Bible. When was it that Satan/the devil began to terrify people who called themselves Christians, and why?

can we get some more votes to close this to save poor ella a little bit of reputation?

wax eagle

@NathanWheeler close votes won't save her rep. only a deletion will do that. For that you will need and SE employee at this point

not constructive is a better close reason btw.

anyway she is at 1 and can't go any lower :)

Nathan Wheeler

@waxeagle - it will prevent more down-votes should the user actually get some up-votes on another question or answer was my point

I realize she has 1 rep now

wax eagle

@NathanWheeler yeah. She can delete it herself if the answer isn't upvoted at all

Nathan Wheeler

being new she likely doesn't know that

I left her a comment

wax eagle

@NathanWheeler same here. I also flagged the answer as NARA so it should get cleaned up if that prevents deletion

Nathan Wheeler

02:59

good deal, thanks

so, who here actually thought this site would ever actually get off the ground?

wax eagle

@NathanWheeler the lack of permissions is starting to get to me a bit :)...used to at least no approval edit permissions...

@NathanWheeler lol well lets not get too cocky, we have a lot to work out before we get out of private

Nathan Wheeler

@waxeagle - I just meant, I never thought it would get enough committed to actually open in the first place

so, you're a pro-tem mod on gardening... I'm on fitness...

wax eagle

@NathanWheeler yeah, I joined up pretty late, so I haven't been in the process...

@NathanWheeler yup, CRoss is a pro-tem on RPG. there a bunch of mods from other site around studiohack was in here earlier and he is a mod on ....SU I think

Nathan Wheeler

nice, good to have mods from other sites dedicated to new sites to keep them flowing smoothly at start

wax eagle

@NathanWheeler yeah and some SE employees have been around meta and approving edits/doing mod stuff

ok, bedtime. I'll be around tomorrow

Nathan Wheeler

03:06

yeah, they will for the first week or two then when a couple people cap over 1K rep they'll appoint pro-tems to take care of that stuff.

at least they did on fitness

have a good night @waxeagle

wax eagle

@NathanWheeler yeah same on gardening.

studiohack

04:31

@waxeagle yeah, I'm on SU...

C. Ross

12:13

@NathanWheeler we don't have any of our special powers though

wax eagle

@CRoss I kind of feel like batman with no utility belt :)

C. Ross

@waxeagle I feel like a first level wizard ;-)

wax eagle

@CRoss ooh nothing worse...

C. Ross

but enough of that (in this room anyway)

everything going smooth on Christianity?

wax eagle

@CRoss smooth enough. Some questions I think need closing (the one about denoms allowing female pastors is a near dupe and asking for a list). And some folks taking issue with my calvinism :)....but I knew that would happen

C. Ross

12:22

@waxeagle at first I read that as demons allowing female pastors ...

wax eagle

ooh and I've already found cause to post the "Just You" image on meta :)

@CRoss I nearly typed that :)

I'm also realizing the fact of the matter is that downvotes are going to be far more prevalent here than other places on the network...

C. Ross

@waxeagle based on?

wax eagle

5

Q: Are Some People are Created to go to Hell?

(correct me if I'm wrong with this statement) God is in control and I believe that His will has always been done. So to say that He's never failed. So, are some people are destined to go to hell? I probably have this kind of thinking from some stories in the bible about God harden some people's...

bible hell predestination

this ones a good example, every single answer has at least one DV...No matter the content

mine even got 2 :)

C. Ross

12:38

@waxeagle yeah, some of these questions are just hard

wax eagle

@CRoss yup, and because of a debate on what the bible actually says, the typical practice of just voting up anything that shows effort doesn't seem to be the case here...

Wikis At Area 51

I'm amazed at the speed with which this site is going...

There are questions every few minutes...

This seems to me to be much faster than scifi, which I was also involved in from the outset.

C. Ross

@WikisAtArea51 this is true, a lot of enthusiasm

Wikis At Area 51

That's great!

C. Ross

@waxeagle plus people are tied up in these, plus all the doctrinal issues ... yeah, people are just going to disagree

wax eagle

12:41

@CRoss very true.

C. Ross

@waxeagle you think TULIP is the essentials of Reformed doctrine?

bit of a loaded question there ...

wax eagle

@CRoss lol not a complete summation. it was created to counter 5 points of Armenianism. I feel like they are a pretty concise way of stating what Reformed doctrine fills thousands of pages of text covering :).

C. Ross

@waxeagle after studying things for a few years I think the Five Solas are a better synopsis

TULIP is what makes Reformed belief different than Armenianism and related beliefs

Five solas

The Five solas are five Latin phrases that emerged during the Protestant Reformation and summarize the Reformers' basic theological beliefs in contradistinction to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church of the day. The Latin word sola means "alone" or "only" in English. The five solas articulated five fundamental beliefs of the Protestant Reformation, pillars which the Reformers believed to be essentials of the Christian life and practice. All five implicitly rejected or countered the teachings of the then-dominant Catholic Church, which had in the reformers' mind usurped divine attrib...

wax eagle

@CRoss Good point. Really should freshen up my theology :)...

C. Ross

@waxeagle looks like you'll have plenty of opportunity

wax eagle

12:51

@CRoss updated my answer to reflect our convo.

C. Ross

@waxeagle also, per that answer ... I think you get a little off topic

wax eagle

@CRoss I feel like all of the points kind of lean on one another...I could just present U/L but I feel like without at least T and I it kind of falls apart, P is probably uneccesary, but might as well sneak in there...

C. Ross

@waxeagle but is TULIP really the answer to the question?

anyway, meeting time here, catch up with you later

wax eagle

@CRoss Sort of? Limited Atonement combined with Unconditional Election means that effectively some people were created to go to hell...

dancek

@waxeagle with regard to meta downvotes meaning disagreement (your comment)

I don't mind the rep at all

but I do think some questions need an answer, and such questions probably shouldn't be downvoted

wax eagle

12:57

@dancek agreed on that. I'm not a huge fan of meta DVing on questions, I'd rather see it reserved for answers...But it is kind of the way things go in meta even if I don't like it

dancek

yep

I'd hate this site to become a "yes" "me too" "you're an abomination" discussion site

I guess I was first hoping to promote policies I believe in in meta, but it failed

now I'm hoping something good comes out of writing good questions and answers

wax eagle

@dancek good questions and good answers will be useful and should stay if the site manages to stay.

dancek

true

wax eagle

Best thing you can do is upvote good content and VTC on stuff thats garbage. And stay active in meta

dancek

it's just that if we choose bad policies beta will be the end of it

wax eagle

13:03

@dancek Its true. But bad policies in our eyes may not be bad policies in the eyes of SE network staff and other users.

Note that the SE staff was pretty strong on your question. I disagree and last night was starting to feel like we had already failed. however this morning I am feeling better about our chances seeing how well the question I linked above has done with disagreeing answers vying for the top spot.

I'm honestly not sure what I think about that (but then again I think I'm write and the competing answer is wrong), but honestly its a religious debate, if we argue too long no one wins and we all look bad :)

dancek

I feel we can't endlessly avoid hot-potato questions, and SE staff is wrong to oppose them, but oh well

I'm kinda interdenominational irl and I feel it's much better to understand each view than to just keep quiet

at least this way I seem to get along with all the Christian people I know

wax eagle

@dancek Unfortunately compare and contrast questions aren't really welcome network wide

However, questions about a specific subject related to a specific religion can definitely have compare/contrast answers.

dancek

hmm, that's a point. I didn't really think of that.

wax eagle

@dancek I'm very tied to a specific denomination IRL, however, I spent a lot of highschool talking and debating with people from other denominations, so I get it.

its just that debate and discussion don't work here. They work in chat, but not in Q&A

dancek

yeah, and that's why I tried to promote answers explaining multiple POVs

that probably failed

wax eagle

14:38

Ahh...love new sites, so easy to hit the vote cap :)

Iszi

15:03

in Christianity BETA Chat, 3 hours ago, by C. Ross

@studiohack looks like everyone is in the general room now, see above

@CRoss I wasn't. :-P

wax eagle

@Iszi well y'ar now :)

HedgeMage

15:25

@waxeagle I'm SE staff and I'm here... if you have a question, feel free to ask.

wax eagle

@HedgeMage Lol I don't have an issue. Actually I was feeling pretty yucky about our chances last night after Robert's comment. but a good night's sleep pretty well fixed that.

HedgeMage

@waxeagle Christianity can succeed if they learn what Parenting had to about policy vs. process, when it's appropriate to address core beliefs and when it's not, and generally being tolerant. The question is simply whether or not you'll (meaning the whole Christianity.sE community) choose to or not.

lonesomeday

@HedgeMage As someone unfamiliar with the Parenting site, is there any chance you could point me to some of that?

wax eagle

Actually @Hedgemage could you maybe post to our meta (maybe answering the subjective question) with a post about what parenting learned and how they got to where they are?

HedgeMage

@lonesomeday Come to think of it, I owe them a summary meta post... a lot of it came out in chat and was doled out in dribs and drabs of comments and meta posts afterwords... maybe I'll close up some of these tabs and focus on that for an hour.

Okay, my plan for the afternoon: lunch, then writing important meta posts.

If you need me I'll check chat after the lunch part, but probably not while writing. I'm easily distracted.

wax eagle

15:32

@HedgeMage Thanks a bunch. Will ping if needed

DForck42

@waxeagle hey

wax eagle

@DForck42 why hello. Did you sign up for the beta?

if so then its officially an RPG.SE invasion :)

DForck42

@waxeagle yup. who else is from rpg.se?

wax eagle

@DForck42 @CRoss is here. not sure who else, but 3 is an invasion right?

It totally would be if we were PCs :)

lonesomeday

I'm contemplating an RPG-Christianity fusion site. Any takers?

El'endia Starman

15:39

LOL. That would be rather interesting... :P

...yes, I really did just jump in without any lead-in. :P

DForck42

@waxeagle lmao

wax eagle

@lonesomeday There is already the Christian Gamers Guild, and another incredibly poorly designed Christian RPG site...why not be a Christian on an already awesome site like RPG.SE :)

lonesomeday

I wish I knew enough about RPGs to make some joke about how being a Christian is in fact just like living out an RPG.

wax eagle

@DForck42 sorry I just VTC'd you...

@lonesomeday you should come learn :). Ask question get answers, increase our volume and help us get launched....

lonesomeday

I would, but StackExchange sites are not good for my work ethic

DForck42

15:44

@waxeagle VTC?

wax eagle

@DForck42 Vote to Close.

DForck42

@waxeagle ahh. but... i think it's a good question... :(

wax eagle

@DForck42 Its a great question. Just a bad fit for SE. we just had the same question abotu Mormon vs. Christian (or Are Mormons Christians) killed yesterday

lonesomeday

I did too, actually -- the problem is that it basically requires about 700 years' history, along with substantial theological, hermeneutical and ethical comparisons

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage hi. Not surprised to see you here so early on.

DForck42

15:47

@waxeagle that's a bit different though. i'm asking for a clear definition of the differences, not what peoples opinions are of the definition

lonesomeday

@DForck42 a question like "What is distinctive about how Baptists interpret the Bible?" would be a great fit, and could include comparison to Catholic methods, but the broad one doesn't really work, IMO

wax eagle

@lonesomeday I think you nailed it.

Roland Taylor

Actually no. The differences may be vast, but it is easy to define them as separate.

DForck42

well it's an interesting question :-D

Roland Taylor

Yep.

DForck42

15:54

i cant believe there's already 100+ questions!

Roland Taylor

I can :). I just hope we don't end with 100+ closed questions, or 100+ argumentative questions :).

DForck42

@RolandTaylor true

El'endia Starman

Indeed.

DForck42

must... not... leave... comments... that... will... get... flammed....

4

El'endia Starman

http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/245/what-is-the-biblical-stance-on-the-relation-between-women-and-god-with-regards-to
This question seems like it was closed mainly for wording reasons, which I have (hopefully) fixed. I would appreciate it if you guys could look it over and let me know if it's suitable now.

@DForck42: lol.

Roland Taylor

16:03

@ElendiaStarman that question is a good opportunity to set things straight. However, it's also a good source of arguments and mud slinging against our faith. Why I say mud slinging is because a lot of people on both sides have said things related to the issue that are totally bogus, and thus the glass is dark that we look at it through.

If you want my opinion, I can give you :).

10

Q: Does wine really mean wine in the Bible?

In discussions I have had in the past over the acceptability of a Christian drinking alcohol I have heard that some 'dry' believers say that the wine in the Bible is not wine as we know it commonly today. It is actually grape juice. I personally believe that the wine of Jesus' day is the wine t...

history wine alcohol

Yay for these kinds of questions were we can set the record straight :)!

El'endia Starman

@RolandTaylor: Yep...this is the perfect kind of site for these sorts of questions... :D

C. Ross

@RolandTaylor yeah

Jesus even made the good stuff

El'endia Starman

@CRoss: My pastor actually made a point about this in the sermon last Sunday. If we take the upper limit of 30 gallons for each stone jar, Jesus made about 908 bottles of the best wine. O.O

2

Roland Taylor

wow

C. Ross

yeah :-)

Iszi

16:16

I think we might need to start up a meta thread, to review questions like this from a different standpoint:

5

Q: Was Jesus a separate god?

John 1 seems to indicate that Jesus was a separate god from the Father. 1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thi...

jesus divinity jehovah-witness

wax eagle

1

Q: Valid questions from different sects

Recently, I posted a question that seems quite good and valid from a Jehovah Witness standpoint (Was Jesus a separate god?). It (almost) immediately got a -1 vote. The question was worded, I believe, in a way that fits very strictly within the confines of what a good question would be for this ...

discussion

Iszi

@waxeagle I'm looking to address something (I think) is not covered in there.

The post here obviously suffers from a certain lack of definition. However, the answers provided do bring up a key issue that we will face: When a person posts a question from a certain perspective, and particularly regarding beliefs of a certain sect or denomination, there will be answerers who will reply based on their beliefs. How should we handle this?

El'endia Starman

@Iszi: What do you mean by "review" and "different standpoint"?

...well, question answered. :P

Iszi

@ElendiaStarman Maybe "different standpoint" isn't quite the right wording. More like we need to analyze a different aspect.

wax eagle

4

Q: Please tag your questions with the denomination you're asking about

I'd like to request that everyone please tag your questions with the denomination you're asking about. We have people getting angry over or downvoting questions that are asked from the perspective of a particular set of doctrines without mentioning which doctrines they're asking about. On RPG....

discussion site-definition

is that closer?

Iszi

16:20

@waxeagle Closer, but it still doesn't quite address the answers.

Roland Taylor

Can we avoid pushing denominationalism?

wax eagle

@Iszi Its true, but can any of us seperate our answers from our beliefs or should we just answer things that fall within our set?

Roland Taylor

We're a united front and let's keep it that way.

El'endia Starman

@Iszi: So you're suggesting that we start a meta thread about answering questions with the same "alignment" (so to speak) as the asker?

Iszi

For example, I'm fairly certain that even if the question was tagged jehovas-witness there would still be people answering to say "The JW Bible is translated wrong".

Roland Taylor

16:21

@Iszi because quite simply, it's not "the Bible".

Iszi

@ElendiaStarman I think that's about right. It'll help avoid a lot of S&A discussion.

Roland Taylor

Christianity can't be a million and one things, it has to have a core definition. To vary from that is just killing its identity.

El'endia Starman

Well, we also have to consider that other people read this stuff too...

wax eagle

@RolandTaylor right, but those goes the opposite way too, JWs answering questions from their world view and perspective

El'endia Starman

@Iszi: Okay, who's gonna start the meta thread?

Roland Taylor

16:22

@waxeagle and we just have to vote them down, tell them not to, or remove the answers.

I'm sorry if I sound confrontational, but we need to keep things tight for this to work.

Iszi

@RolandTaylor That's your opinion, and according to the First Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States, you're entitled to it. However, that's not the opinion of the asker in this case, and definitely not the answer he was looking for.

Roland Taylor

@Iszi I'm not from the United States :)

wax eagle

@RolandTaylor unfortunately thats not the direction this site is taken (even if I'd like to see it too)

Iszi

@RolandTaylor :-P

Roland Taylor

Even the 100th amendment won't affect me :).

@waxeagle You're a Christian as well? (I didn't know btw).

El'endia Starman

16:24

@RolandTaylor Well shoot...hopefully you're from a country that has a similar law? :P

Roland Taylor

Hahahahahahahaha

Does being from a commonwealth country count?

wax eagle

@RolandTaylor yes Presbyterian

Roland Taylor

@waxeagle awesome

@waxeagle I had to ask because I'm never sure what to expect on SE :P. I almost always seem to run into people who are looking for the quickest opportunity to call Christians stupid, find holes, or just flame for amusement. To be honest, I have my guard wall up and I'm ready for battles :P...

C. Ross

@RolandTaylor really I haven't run into that much

wax eagle

@RolandTaylor well, thankfully along those lines this site has been pretty civil. The demoninational, and sectarian differences are going to be the big issue

Roland Taylor

16:27

@CRoss been on Skeptics.SE or brought up your faith by accident or intentionally anywhere?

C. Ross

@RolandTaylor well, on Skeptics I can see how it might be that way

Roland Taylor

@waxeagle yeah, but if we really hold to our core faith, we can defeat denominationalism.

@CRoss I've even had trouble on my native AskUbuntu :P

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor So far, the problem on Christianity has been members of sect A trying to vote members of sect B off the island (i.e. vote on who's a "real" Christian).

C. Ross

I have brought up the Way before in chat, and I haven't caught any flack. Some disagreed but there was no animosity

El'endia Starman

@waxeagle My guess is that's because of the fact that only 207 people committed, so I'll bet only a small portion of those are not actually Christian.

wax eagle

16:28

@RolandTaylor lol, history seems to say you're wrong :)...

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage /me rubs eyes... you're a Christian?

lonesomeday

@RolandTaylor Do you mean holding to the truths of Christianity that all Christians hold? If so, there are precious few...

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor I'm not. Why do you ask?

Roland Taylor

@waxeagle history is history, it doesn't prevent the future from changing.

C. Ross

@RolandTaylor the room doesn't detect faith at the door :-)

7

Roland Taylor

16:29

@HedgeMage cause I didn't remember you being one (so just wanted to be clear before we continue).

@CRoss I know ;). I've met Hedge before actually.

We've also had an interesting conversation...

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor Ahh. I'm here in my role as Stack employee, shepherding along private betas :)

Roland Taylor

@lonesomeday not everyone who says "Lord, Lord..."

@HedgeMage ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

wax eagle

@HedgeMage an apt metaphor :)

HedgeMage

grins @waxeagle

Roland Taylor

Well, from me, personally, I'd be glad if you stay here longer :).

C. Ross

16:33

Simply as a practical matter, this is going to be a public site on the public internet owned by a secular company. I don't think we can narrowly define Christian to any of our own sects or even the big three. We just have to mark questions that want a specific sect's beliefs that way, and represent our own points of view in answers.

HedgeMage

@CRoss I agree with you, I'm just waiting to see if enough of the committers do to make the site viable.

Roland Taylor

Oh well... just be aware I'll always be around. That niggling little "rebel" against the system ;)

Iszi

@lonesomeday I think the only universal truth among all Christian sects and denominations, and probably the only belief that we can (and should) use as a pre-qualifier for this site's content, is that Jesus Christ of Nazareth lived, died, and was resurrected for the sake of our salvation.

Roland Taylor

@Iszi and was resurrected...

Iszi

@RolandTaylor Silly me. Thanks.

Roland Taylor

16:37

XD

C. Ross

@RolandTaylor yeah, that bit is pretty core

El'endia Starman

@Iszi Do you want to make this meta thread or shall I?

Iszi

Still, my point is that, among Christian faiths, the rest is up for debate and subject to translation.

@ElendiaStarman I'm running out of time for right now. Probably could do it later tonight, but you're welcome to go ahead.

HedgeMage

Translation, tradition, interpretation, and a whole bunch of other things...

El'endia Starman

@Iszi Alright, will do.

Roland Taylor

16:38

@HedgeMage :)... this is going to be lots of fun I can see :D

HedgeMage

:)

wax eagle

@HedgeMage you've just nailed 2000 years of war and pieces in one sentence :)

totally misspelled then edited it to a badpun...man that's awful...

HedgeMage

chuckles

Roland Taylor

:)

Iszi

@RolandTaylor I was about to add that God is the one and only god, but then I realized that (apparently) even the definition of "God" varies among certain groups.

Roland Taylor

16:40

>:)

@Iszi then those groups are not Disciples of Jesus.

Iszi

@RolandTaylor Again, opinion.

Roland Taylor

I know my view on that isn't politically correct, but then... I'm politically wrong by right.

God's opinion sure matters more than ours doesn't it?

Iszi

@RolandTaylor I don't disagree, but I can understand that there are those that do.

Roland Taylor

If the Bible gives us His opinion, then shouldn't we stick with that?

And by sticking with it, I mean without trying to stretch it to mean what we want, or without taking things out of context so we can stir strife?

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor Some would argue that the Bible didn't fall from the sky. It was recorded, translated, and interpreted by humans who can and do screw up.

Iszi

16:42

@RolandTaylor Yes, but if we can't all agree to the definition of "Bible" then how can we be expected to agree upon His opinion?

3

@HedgeMage And then there's that, too.

Roland Taylor

I have a solution...

Why don't we all just continue on with our merry lives until we eventually come to the end of it.

We'll eventually find out who was right, wrong and... who is toast :).

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor For example, most Christians seem to agree that Christianity is not compatible with abortion, but I had a Christian preacher try to beat me to a miscarriage when I was pregnant. He was sure he was following the Bible. Interpretations vary.

Roland Taylor

@HedgeMage wait what?

Beat you to a miscarriage, as in physically beat you?

If that is the case, I'm pretty sure he was insane.

Iszi

@RolandTaylor People do some crazy stuff in the name of God. History has shown us that for sure.

Roland Taylor

That doesn't mean God approves of it, or that they actually represent Him. If God is love, anything you do outside of Love, regardless of your definition, isn't actually "in God's Name".

C. Ross

16:46

@RolandTaylor it's amazing the diversity of opinion of what is "love"

Iszi

@RolandTaylor God may or may not approve of it, but what makes one do something in the name of God is that they believe he approves of it - regardless of absolute truth.

C. Ross

@HedgeMage I'm very sorry. :-(

Roland Taylor

See that kind of thinking? It gets us everywhere... except to the right place.

(I mean "amazing the... love")

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor A neighbor found out that my family wasn't Christian, and called several local churches. This pastor came to my house and tried to break in, screaming about how he was going to "beat that devil out of [me] lest [I] bring more of [my] kind here". It escalated from there. I managed to fend him off the first time he made a grab at me, and non-bigoted neighbor put him at the end of a shotgun after that.

Iszi

@HedgeMage Wow. That's just... incredible.

HedgeMage

16:47

@RolandTaylor I agree that the guy was nuts -- my point is that simply saying "take God's word over everyone else's" doesn't work because whatever you think God's word is, it's a human interpretation.

2

@Iszi That's central Texas.

wax eagle

@HedgeMage Wow. Thats horrible. Hopefully we can set a much better example of what Christlike behavior looks like.

El'endia Starman

@HedgeMage ...wow. O.O

Roland Taylor

Wow... I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you realize that violates the foundation of our faith though?

Iszi

@HedgeMage Arguably so, (hence, the divisions) but your point is valid.

Roland Taylor

God's word is not some human interpretation.

If a person believes that with all their heart they don't believe God's word.

Sorry if anyone is offended by that, but that's just the way it is.

HedgeMage

16:49

@RolandTaylor I didn't say God's word is human interpretation -- I said that what people think is God's word is human interpretation.

Roland Taylor

Sorry misread that - but my point still stands.

Anyway folks, I have to go now.

HedgeMage

@RolandTaylor It does, but that doesn't stop humans from being nutjobs.

Roland Taylor

I'll be back to cause more drama (unintentionally) later :/...

HedgeMage

lol

Iszi

@RolandTaylor And our point is that it does stand, to you and those who think like you but to nobody else. Otherwise, we wouldn't have so many divisions among our faith.

HedgeMage

16:50

bye, @RolandTaylor

lonesomeday

@RolandTaylor Karl Barth would say that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and that the Bible is the divinely-inspired, human-written testimony to that Word

ah, we can do that later... :-)

Roland Taylor

Lol you'll come to love me eventually :D

Like the guys on AskUbuntu do :D

El'endia Starman

@RolandTaylor: Seeya!

Roland Taylor

(and there I shall return at this point).

Iszi

L8rz @RolandTaylor.

HedgeMage

16:54

@waxeagle Re: your earlier comment... if you all can't set a better example than the violent nutjobs, I'll push our team to shut down the site. One thing I'd like to point out, though, in case you didn't know...

C. Ross

@HedgeMage as well you should

per our discussions in the earlier room, if we can't get along on the site, then we need to go our separate ways because we're not exactly bringing credit to our creed/creeds

HedgeMage

I'm something of an exception in that while I am not Christian, most of my extended family is. So, I had positive experiences with Christians (though not with the religion itself) long before that incident. Most pagans I know haven't. They've only had memorable contact with the ones who want to economically and politically opress us, physically hurt us, and traumatize our children. I didn't get why they feared Christianity until I lived in Texas...

It bugs me that while the nutjobs are the small minority, they are the only face of Christianity regularly presented to non-Christians.

Somebody should do something about that, but I have no idea how.

El'endia Starman

@HedgeMage tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VocalMinority

C. Ross

also: the Holy Huddle

lonesomeday

@HedgeMage Some of us are trying, one step at a time...

El'endia Starman

16:58

I think we can safely blame the media for that...

HedgeMage

I'd like to think that individual Christians (like my shotgun-toting neighbor who drove that preacher out of my house) would step up when they see something happen, but it seems they're just as subject to groupthink as the rest of us: they don't want to step in "until it gets bad enough to make something of it" at which point they are too scared to.

C. Ross

@ElendiaStarman wrong you are!

wax eagle

@ElendiaStarman We honestly only have ourselves to blame

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