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02:00 - 22:0022:00 - 00:00

2:07 AM
@VxJasonxV No you didn't butchered it ;)
2 hours later…
3:57 AM
@VxJasonxV I agree, the layouts and feature sets are gorgeous. Jaw-droppingly good. Thanks to all the folks involved in making things so good here.
4:10 AM
@VxJasonxV I feel the same way. Thanks to everyone that has made this site a success!
I hope that wasn't creepy
@VxJasonxV if you have a newish Apple keyboard, you can access it with control+f3, where f3 is your expose button
@AbbyTMillerΨ as @VxJasonxV said, thanks for doing what you can. It's great that there's someone in the NYC office that's actually listening to us
3 hours later…
7:03 AM
@garikapati No, I didn't, but I was off by one character. Garrrrrr. So close, and yet so far.
@KyleCronin Control+Fn+F3 in my case. Hell, YES. Thank you.
@KyleCronin Don't worry, it was :).
7:21 AM
@VxJasonxV it was just a collection of photos I found when googling "abbyjmiller"
I know.
Leo does a lot of shows
how can he have enough time to learn the necessary stuff for each show? does he have researchers that produce digests for him?
I imagine he reads a lot.
And there's a reason why he has co-hosts/panelists.
everyone collectively produces the topics for the shows. they use google spreadsheets pretty extensively.
yeah, and it is his full-time job, so I'd imagine that's all he does
as opposed to the rest of us...
7:39 AM
yeah, that helps
it's not like he just dropped 1.2 mil on a GORGEOUS building or anything either...
yeah, I'm watching it a lot more in the new building
the old one was way too small
it served him well for, I dunno, 5 years?
but as soon as he hired sarah and tom, they needed something new, fast.
and now there he is.
well it's also how the discussions are done, everyone's around a big table
and there are multiple cameras with multiple views
one even swings around
it's called a jib
yeah ok
7:46 AM
rather, it's called a camera on a jib.
but the old cottage only really used 2 views - a Leo closeup and a wide shot with room for 2 other people at the table in front of him
I can think of 5
of course you can, you've seen every episode
leo straight, guest (to leo's left) straight, wide angle, guest (to leo's right) straight, and over leo's shoulder. used that excessively for the giz wiz and what not.
@KyleCronin your advice please on etiquette. Re: your comment under apple.stackexchange.com/q/19429/8546 I can refer to an external resource e.g. wuala.com/%23%23Apple-support/members/grahamperrin/2011/08/02/b/… where I'm adding files. Is that a good way to go? …
Or should I instead add an answer to my own question, believing (at the moment) that the answer (the experiment) is not leading to an answer?
7:49 AM
what is the nature of the external resource you're adding?
if you're answering your question, you can post it as an answer, but otherwise if you're adding information to the question, put it in the question
At the moment it's: things that I try, that fail. Good to add to the question?
I'm wary of making the question too long with (for example) results of commands that lack sanity (my lack of knowledge)
also wary of making it too much like a discussion forum
yeah, try not to make the question too long
(Too long for my liking already :-)
7:51 AM
from a practical standpoint, it's less likely someone will bother reading it in its entirety
but feel free to add links to external content
Reading the FAQ I see it's OK to fully answer my own question, which might eventually happen. Is that OK for reputation — not just in terms of numbers, but how people view things?
yeah, it's encouraged
especially if no one has answered
you occasionally get some people that will post a question but have an answer all ready
I find that a little disingenuous, and would prefer them to wait and see if someone else posts that answer before immediately posting it themselves
but even doing that isn't disallowed
@KyleCronin for external content relating to Apple support I recently created on Wuala ##Apple-support wuala.com/%23%23Apple-support
7:56 AM
that looks like a browseable directory
are you going to link to files, or the directory?
## to signify that it's unofficial (not Apple), and there are other Apple/Mac related groups on Wuala. Cloud based storage, in a nutshell.
just out of curiosity, is that your own personal account or is that a shared account?
@KyleCronin for that particular question in Ask Different, I'll probably add something terse to the question with reference to a particular folder. And my habit to include, in the folder, a link to the question. So for example in the folder at wuala.com/%23%23Apple-support/members/grahamperrin/2011/08/02/b click 'question.url' to visit the question in Ask Different.
hmm, it's just a matter of personal preference, but it might be better to include inline links to the individual files than to have just one link to the directory
something like "And I ran fs_usage and got these results."
@KyleCronin you might be ahead of me :-) it's a group area that any registered user of Wuala is welcome to use. So I was going to ask whether I should (a) continue in ##Apple-support or (b) create another group Ask Different (or more human-friendly for autocompletion, ask-different)
8:02 AM
it's up to you, I don't think many other people will be using Wuala so it's not that important to have everyone's stuff in one spot
@KyleCronin for the question that's what I had in mind.
Good morning, @GrahamPerrin! And good night, @KyleCronin.
it's technically morning here too
it's not morning until (1) the sun is up or (2) you've slept
which ever comes first!
ok, I'll grant you that
8:04 AM
@KyleCronin or anyone, is there another cloud storage that people around Ask Different tend to use, more than other cloud services? Or free for all? I'm an established user of Wuala (neatly integrated with Mac OS etc.) but always interested in other trends
good morning @VxJasonxV! (I'm often around in the early hours, tinnitus.)
@GrahamPerrin not really, the only hosting people really use is imgur for images, as the WMD editor has an uploader built in
@KyleCronin thanks very useful to know
otherwise, most people just include the information in the question or link to an existing page that has more information
@KyleCronin yeah as a rule of thumb I'd like to keep as much content as possible internal to Ask Different (for Google search result and other purposes)
oh, I almost forgot
people on Stack Overflow also use gists on GitHub
8:10 AM
@KyleCronin are tips such as imgur … and gists on GitHub … usually gained through chat like this? Or is there a page of tips somewhere? (I haven't searched meta for those things yet)
well imgur is used because that's what Stack Exchange uses with the image upload buttons
Different subject: command-c bleeps in chat, does not copy. Known issue?
as far as gists go, I assume it's just people using what works
some people use pastebin
others will just dump everything into the question
@KyleCronin gist.github.com yes? Never heard of it but looks interesting :-)
yes, that's it
good for sharing text snippits
8:16 AM
@AbbyTMiller or #CHAOS FYI apple.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/bootcamp Boot Camp two words so tag [boot-camp] and if people are bothered, Boot Camp in texts
5 hours later…
1:36 PM
@GrahamPerrin Boot Camp, gotcha
all byyy myyy seeeelf
don't wanna be
aaalll byyy myyy seeeeeelf
2:11 PM
question for y'all whenever you guys show up - if someone were an iOS developer, would they be more likely to ask their questions here or on SO?
same goes for developers of OS X exclusive apps i guess
@AbbyTMillerΨ and at your leisure, in meta (question unfinished, tag-related, food for thought): meta.apple.stackexchange.com/q/626/8546
@AbbyTMillerΨ I saw a Top of the Tops repeat of that recently, performed live (I think), it's a lovely song but when it's just him and the piano and the words, it's remarkably repetitive!
@GrahamPerrin since i'm not a real mod i'm leaving the tag cleanup and other mod stuff to @KyleCronin and @Nathan
okey dokey
i just like to sort of apply and enforce the things that the community actually comes up with, without interfering in the actual coming-up-with-stuff process :)
@GrahamPerrin yes: it gets very, very, long.
@AbbyTMillerΨ Questions about development and developer programs are off-topic here.
2:22 PM
@AbbyTMillerΨ (I should have remembered that from yesterday's chat when you threw it open to Nathan and all)
Except for Terminal, AppleScript, and Automator.
@GrahamPerrin no problem :)
@Nathan roger.
@GrahamPerrin I think you've got it right with [filevault-1].
If there's a meta post, I usually like to wait a little and see if anyone has any objections.
But product-version seems to be our usual pattern.
@Nathan and if/when you create the tag, for the description can include "… sometimes known in Lion as Legacy FileVault …" etc.
Sounds good.
2:26 PM
@Nathan yep the meta question was for exactly that purpose. Wish I could remember what option 3 was! It's the sort of thing that'll come to me when I step AWAY from the computer and do the washing up.
@GrahamPerrin And if you think someone's likely to tag something as [legacy-filevault] we can make that a synonym.
@Nathan option 4 added to question. Your answer there noted and upped with thanks.
2:49 PM
by popular demand i've changed my avatar to a real live photo of me
(but it'll probably take gravatar a year to push it through)
I see it!
ah, there it is!
(with special appearance by my cat gladys doing her best pirate parrot impression)
Anyone: for markup in an answer, what's the trick to have the symbol for alt/option (instead of the word e.g. <kbd>alt/option</kbd>)? and to have the right arrow instead of … 
@GrahamPerrin Copypaste from:
Q: Keyboard icons & terminology

DoriDifferent people use different terminology and symbols for Mac keys/commands. I figured we should have one standardized list that can be a point of reference for editing guidelines. Since no one else has created one… Usage: Names go from most to least common, so use the first in the list whene...

@Nathan perfect. Now why couldn't I find that yesterday? :-)
2 hours later…
4:38 PM
Hey @Nathan, have you done anything with TextExpander and those explicit characters from Dori's Keyboard icon post?
Considering you said "copy/paste" from, I'll take that as a no.
5:31 PM
@VxJasonxV I haven't.
Personally, I don't like the symbols.
I just use <kbd>cmd</kbd>
why not?
I have one symbol text expanded. ⌘!
Also you can type this without anything special: 
Say you're a new Mac user.
What the heck does ⌥ mean?
Or ⇪?
I grant you with the removal of characters from the keyboard they're becoming less obvious.
But the whole point is the app menus.
i for one can't keep them all straight
i remember that ⌥ is option because i think: "oh look, a slide! i have the option to go down that slide."
thus: the system needs some help.
that's exactly the point. An alternate path.
5:35 PM
I'm fine with the symbols now, but I wasn't for about a year of using a Mac.
And the names are completely unambiguous.
i've been a mac user for 6 years now and i still don't get the symbols. but i also haven't tried that hard to commit them to memory.
I think my penchant for using strictly the keyboard puts me on the path to understanding this easily.
I'm kind of a zealot about correct character representation. Example: It's not control-S, it's control-s, or ^s
control-S inherently means control-shift-s
i agree with that completely. if there's a keystroke involved it should be noted, shift included
How do you guys feel about + vs -?
As in, cmd+a vs cmd-a ?
no difference.
5:46 PM
I used + until someone read it as cmd-plus-a
"Wait, it isn't working."
"What keys are you pressing?"
"apple, plus, and a"
I had no idea what ⌥ was for the longest time.
It's not printed on the keycaps anymore.
nothing is outside of the number row and command
aside from the dedicated special characters too of course.
and the function row too I guess :/. But those aren't punctuation marks.
I've got a Windows keyboard, which complicates things...
cmd = alt, opt = win, ctrl = ctrl
Just the mapping. If I want to press command, I push the alt button.
...annoying and confusing at first, but I put up with it because I like the keyboard.
Welcome to chat, @ChristianCorrea!
How do you do?
I just realized there's a chat in here. Is this a place to discuss the blog (meta) or is it a place to post actual questions, or both? I'm curious.
@ChristianCorrea It's for both.
But we spend most of the time chatting about general Apple-related stuff.
5:55 PM
hi @ChristianCorrea!
Hello! Nice to meet you all. Well, I have a "meta" question: I am just getting started on the StackExchange, so this was my first site, then I went on to others that interested me. One of my questions in the Sci-Fi Q&A was just closed because, the moderator said, it was about asking for a recommendation. He said that that type of question did not have a definitive answer, as it was based on opinion. Yet, I see those types of questions all the time in Ask Different. What am I missing?
Short answer: Different sites, different policies.
Can you give us a link to the question that was closed?
yup, @Brant is right. each site has its own community and the privilege of developing its own guidelines for what is on and off topic.
6:00 PM
Sure, let's see if I can find it.
Gaming doesn't allow those kinds of questions either.
Yeah, unless there was a big problem with the question, it's probably just outside what they've decided is on-topic.
Q: Can anyone recommend the "Indigo" book series by Louise Cooper?

Christian CorreaBack in the mid nineties I was reading a book series by an author named Louise Cooper. The first book of the series is called "Nemesis" and the book series is called "Indigo". I remember reading the first two or three books of the series and really enjoying where the story was going. However, my ...

closed as not constructive by DampeS8N♦ Jul 27 at 22:31

This question is not a good fit to our Q&A format. We expect answers to generally involve facts, references, or specific expertise; this question will likely solicit opinion, debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion.
Well, that is a little subjective.
One person can like a book and another can hate it.
the difference with apple is that app recommendation requests generally are searching for an app that will serve a specific purpose or solve a specific problem. people don't generally ask "what's a good iOS puzzle game i can play this weekend", which is the type of thing i don't think they want on gaming or scifi, for example
6:01 PM
The same goes for software (which we allow recommendations on).
But, to a lesser degree, IMO.
The biggest problem with recommendations is that the most popular answer rises to the top, not the most useful one.
The key is to request specific features so that people can answer with something that directly fills the needs of the asker.
I see your point. Book recommendation take on a different feel than software recommendations.
Because on a book the "usefulness" factor is not as measurable, just like software really can't be measured in its entertainment value (unless it's a game).
@ChristianCorrea exactly. though, if you were to ask something like "what is a book my 9-year-old can read that features dragons and deals with themes like overcoming childhood lack of self-confidence," or something to that effect, that might be something the scifi crowd would accept as on topic
Great example. Well, that clears it a bit. Thanks.
6:04 PM
(i think)
@ChristianCorrea no problem!
Glad you got it figured out, and a hearty welcome to the Stack Exchange network!
Any Apple questions while you're here? :D
Yeah, actually. We might not be able to discuss it, though. You tell me... Anyway. Xcode requires that development iPhones/iPads are registered as developer devices. This is needed before being able to push your binaries into the device. So there is some sort of server validation at some point as part of this process. My question is: Is installing the iOS betas making a similar validation?
A developer friend of mine, who already paid for his developer license is in the process of registering (it takes several weeks if registering as a company). He is getting impatient and I was wondering if giving him the .ipsw for the beta as well as the iTunes beta would allow him to upgrade--or would I have to add his device to my list of devices?
6:19 PM
I'm gonna guess it doesn't work.
Apple's code-signing stuff is pretty elaborate.
You generate certificates with Keychain Access tied to your account.
And others tied to individual devices.
Good point.
Well, thanks for the welcome! I am really enjoying helping (or trying to help) the community. Great site.
I should probably get back to work. Cheers!
Glad you like it here.
I found this place a while ago, and haven't gone back to the forums since :)
@ChristianCorrea See you around then :)
6:38 PM
@ChristianCorrea Are you still around?
You can certainly (technically) upgrade a co-worker's device using your account. The ipsw are validated in Xcode against your dev certs - just like iTunes validates a consumer iOS build against their certs and issues a SHSH key for that device and that ipsw
so - it's trackable - does require an internet connection and could be a grey area since the NDA typically requires you to not distribute assets to others not in your organization. Can you hire a contractor for a week's work - of course. Should you charge on a street corner new iOS build - that would be a pretty spectacular way to interview for the we no longer want you as a developer program.
you don't have to burn a development device unless you want that device to run apps signed by your cert.
6:55 PM
@bmike Hey, cool!
I figured Apple had blocked it all off.
7:42 PM
@Nathan It's really not bad at all. The 100 device limit has workarounds, the code signing is very permissive, the loading of development certs means one device can be enrolled for testing against many developers. Most of the pain is of ignorance how to do it and initially poor / opaque web services.
starting today iOS developers have it really easy - most of the hard things are automated away and well understood as policy limitations, not something you can't find out and waste hours trying to do.
Yeah, I read about what a meticulous process setting up a device for development was.. Then a few months ago when I did it myself, after paying my $99, I pretty much just got a dialog in Xcode asking for my apple id and it set everything up for me.
Too bad it's still Xcode/ObjC.
"It couldn't be easier. But then ObjC." Nice, Brant. Nice.
Hah. Well, to be fair, I haven't plumbed the depths of Xcode enough to judge it, but at this point I expect the kind of stuff ReSharper/IDEA does to come standard with any IDE.
But I'm not starting a holy war against an IDE/language I barely understand so I'll just walk away for now.
8:02 PM
I don't know Xcode/ObjC at all. FWIW :).
I'd love to think I do, but I really don't.
8:16 PM
can someone tell me if this title edit makes sense?
Sounds right to me.
thanks :)
8:46 PM
Just traded my Kindle in for a Nook.
The closest thing to an iPad I'll be able to afford for a while :)
@Nathan Offer cash to a friend that is jonesing for iPad 2. The original is still great and does almost everything except iMovie editing.
@Nathan I hear the nook is really nice, though.
@bmike I don't have any friends with iPads :(
@bmike Yeah, I played with it at the store and it seemed real nice.
I'm currently in the unbearable "Allow to charge 3.5 hours before first use" stage.
9:11 PM
and you can't even do anything during that time?
Well, conflicting info there. "Do not use the first time until a full charge has completed."
Then, a paragraph later, "You can use your Nook while it's charging"
@Nathan then they're not all that good - you don't really want one - (LOL)
@Nathan What it should say is you will damage your nook if you unwrap it and start playing and deplete the battery totally then let it sit overnight under the tree.
That would probably be bad.
9:15 PM
LiPo batteries should ship half full - so if they are not, then the supply chain is long and it's sat for months (or they only topped em off to 1/3 at the factory which would be bizarre)
@Nathan you can use it while it's charging, just not the first time
@bmike Yup. And I think there are also regulations that they have to ship half full if they're going on a plane.
@KyleCronin That's how I interpreted it.
@KyleCronin Do they do a calibration run on first charge? I'm really curious now
@bmike a lot of devices do
to 51!!!
9:17 PM
@Nathan I'm in - and gosh that is a cute panda
Is the charging on a plane thing for hand carried devices or any cargo at all?
I've shipped thousands of LiPo and many were dead as a door nail. The regulations I was taught specified clear external labeling, physical protection and procection from short circuiting - but these all went cargo - not as hand carried where I needed to show it powered on.
Well, I hear from my dad that they're really strict.
Oh, but wait.
He's shipping a medical device. So, FDA and EU step in.
Probably stricter for that.
Yes - they tightened up significantly. The penalties for shipping certain batteries are high.
if you don't label the containers well.
it started here in the US about 18 months ago.
sadly - if some terrorist wanted to start a fire - shorting a consumer portable battery would be the best way to do it.
lithium battery fires are NASTY
and yet it hasn't happened yet.
awful fumes, tons of energy,dirt cheap
9:22 PM
I remember when Sony had the 'exploding batteries' drama.
And the group that released the video of "this is what happens when you puncture a LiOn battery". And had to edit the end of it to say "this has nothing to do with the sony battery recall, nor was this a sony battery"
those were nothing compared to an intentional clip to short the cells followed by an ice pick
@Nathan too true
I've gotten to the point that, in a given day, I picture up to 4 xkcd strips in my head relevant to the current conversation.
you should change your login shell from bash to xkcdsh
better idea
you need to download all of the strips, with alt text added to the bottom of the image, stick them in a folder, and let OS X rotate those as your background.
Is there a dump, or do I have to write a scraper?
9:25 PM
I had a tweet in my stream asking if we had gotten to the point where any twitter reference could just be summarized with a link to xkcd.
I'm sure there's a pic appropriate for me looking in vain for that one tweet.
it wouldn't be hard to script, sense they're organized sensibly.
A for loop and curl/wget would be sufficient. But something a bit more respectful? Not sure.
Read the alt-text on that one.
believe me, I remember
I wonder how many spam sites' scrapers died after that comic
9:27 PM
(define (fact x) (if (= x 0) 1 (* x (fact (- x 1)))))
... little bobby tables, we call him
"and that'll teach you not to escape your input"
oh munroe, what can't you do hilariously.
Wow, Steam, really?
dialog pops up: "Thanks for participating in the beta!". Box options: Restart Steam / Cancel.
I click Restart Steam, what do you think happens?
Steam restarts?
Naw, too easy.
What's it do?
The updater opens to download the update.
Not what it promised, but is that bad?
9:41 PM
no, but when you label a button that says "restart steam", and it doesn't?
nice brains, morans
I used to get mad at Steam... but that took too much energy. Now I just sulk quietly when it's bad.
would you say you... get steamed?
headdesk headdesk headdesk headdesk
Note to self: Convince Kyle to pay my medical bills for when my BRAIN BEGINS TO HEMORRHAGE.
Actually, I have a better idea.
you need to go get a pair of cheap, dark, sunglasses. And do the CSI thing.
9:44 PM
Make a show just out of that. Take a situation, and CSI: Miami it up
I can never remember that guy's name.
Horatio Caine
no, David Caruso
perfect thumbnail
@Nathan Well said.
hello @SpareOom
This is the Apple room, right?
9:51 PM
you know, calling out new faces must be beneficial yet jarring for one reason:
that god awful THUD when someone @'s you...
It wakes me up, hearing the thud.
I have a question. Can I ask here instead of on the question page?
if it's a small question sure, but if it's a real question there are more people to answer on the site itself
9:54 PM
It's probably a real question. But I don't know if I'll have to create another account to ask it.
Can you tell me if it looks like a duplicate at least?
It's concerning hooking my macbook to a HDTV.
what brand/year MacBook?
I can't get the macbook screen and the tv screen to work separately. I'm trying to play a video while typing. Circa 2008, osx 10.5.8
you mean you want separate stuff on separate screens?
9:57 PM
The connection works, but the only way files open on the tv is in mirror arrangement
I want video to play on tv while I stay online on the macbook.
what do you mean by "the only way files open"?
I can open files on the macbook, but if I drag them to the tv monitor and click to open, it still opens in the macbook.
you have to drag the movie window to the other screen, not the file.
Have you tried draggin the window to the TV?
It won't drag to the other screen
9:59 PM
@VxJasonxV beat me :P
apps will generally ALWAYS open on your primary display. the primary display is whichever display has the Menu Bar.
@SpareOom what are you using to play the movie?
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