V'dibarta Bam - 2014-04-10

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1:19 AM

Hello - I wanted to better understand a rejected edit. Is @DoubleAA online?

1:36 AM

Hello @GeminiMan - are you an editor by chance?

Anyway, this question is addressed to @DoubleAA, @IsaacMoses and @MonicaCellio. I made a series of tag wiki edits per the guidelines we're building here (http://meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/q/1994/2091).

The tag wiki edits were mostly, if not entirely, approved. The tag wiki excerpt edits were partially approved and partially rejected. I wanted to understand why the site's editors differ on the appropriateness of a tag wiki excerpt edit. I also wanted to challenge the rejections as the edits made clearly adhere to the guidelines above.

@Lee I saw and approved a few earlier today -- saw there were more but got called away. Going off to review the reviews now to see what happened.

@MonicaCellio Thank you for reviewing the reviewed reviews, Monica! ;-) Looking forward to your feedback.

1:52 AM

@Lee, @DoubleAA says in some of his excerpt rejections that he doesn't see where the style change is on that page. DoubleAA, that's in the question, which suggested normalizing on "The weekly Torah portion of [Parashah Name] ([Humash Name] [Chapter:Verse-Chapter:Verse])". I guess that should have been in an answer to be more clear. DoubleAA, did you miss that (very likely) or do you disagree with it? If the latter, please let's talk. I think the edits here were an attempt at consistency.

@MonicaCellio My thoughts precisely. Thank you, @MonicaCellio. Whatever consensus is, I'd love to implement it or see it implemented.

@Lee this is, of course, just my take on it. If people think we shouldn't be doing some part of this, please speak up.

@MonicaCellio Understood. I'm just a bit of a stickler for consistency (unless there is a good reason to stray from it). Again, whatever consensus is, I vote yea :-)

If we don't connect before then, Hag Kasher We'Sameah to all!!!

@Lee and to you! We will have 11 for seder at my house (second night) this year. I think I can still make it work to do the first half in the living room -- a tradition I heard somewhere but haven't seen otherwise, but if we're supposed to be reclining and spending time on the story and such, why not do it in the comfy seats instead of at the table? I just need to round up a couple more comfy seats. :-)

Amen! On an unrelated note, I've always wondered what happens to a question, which was answered, but which was asked by a user who nevers return to the site?

2:03 AM

@Lee the question sticks around, same as for anybody else (even if a user is deleted). Not all askers come back and accept an answer even if there's one that's clearly accept-worthy.

@Lee An editor of what?

2:30 AM

@MonicaCellio @Lee It was mentioned in the question but there is no evidence that anyone approved the layout. Moreover the issues of "Bereshit" vs "Genesis" are specifically excluded from the voting in that question, so you can't claim consensus was achieved. Until otherwise, the custom here is to respect the OP's transliteration scheme.

2:53 AM

The question was posed with the intent of garnering input and constructive criticism so as to reach consensus. In the absence of corrections or disapprovals, I implemented the template proposed. How else do you propose achieving 'approval'?

You are correct that the question did not specifically address the transliteration scheme to be used in tag wiki excerpts. Because I was editing one parashah tag and used the transliteration scheme most natural to me, I took the liberty of making all tag wikis consistent since that was the intent of the meta discussion in the first place.

3:23 AM

@Lee It's not that it "did not specifically address the transliteration scheme" to be used; it did specifically not address the scheme to be used. IMO you would need community approval to override anyone's scheme, not just using the one you like because you are editing.

Note this question meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/q/679/759

3:47 AM

@DoubleAA How do you propose proceeding with the parashah tag wikis / excerpts?

1 hour later…

5:05 AM

@Lee [Just catching up on backread here.] Thanks for working on this!

5:17 AM

@MonicaCellio I've never heard of that tradition before, AFAIR. Interesting.

@Lee I agree with keeping preexisting transliteration schemes per the older Meta post @DoubleAA linked to above. I think the upvotes on the Meta question with no comments objecting to the proposal therein imply some support for that proposal. So perhaps the excerpt should read as in that Meta Q but with the chumash name in English (Genesis etc.) and the parasha name however it preexists in the excerpt or, if it's not there, then however it preexists in the tag name. [cont'd]

[cont'd] The reason I propose English for the chumash name is broader accessibility.

7 hours later…

12:18 PM

@msh210 I'm fine with your proposals. Perhaps it makes sense to include them in the meta post. Regardless, I'd really like to get general consensus (@MonicaCellio, @IsaacMoses, @DoubleAA) before making any further edits.

It's quite frustrating to think I have enough information to make a swath of edits only to realize that not everyone agrees with them.

2 hours later…

2:23 PM

Why are all the Jewish commentaries so old?

People seem to rever commentaries from the Middle Ages or Antiquity. o_O

Compared to Christians, why do Jews seem so conservative?

I don't get it. Jews and Muslims seem to think their holy texts are uncreated or have always been present. The scriptures come from God. But Christians seem to believe that the scriptures are written by humans and not directly come from God.

@Lee could somebody add an answer to the meta question along the lines of what @msh210 suggested (assuming you agree Lee, which it looks like you do) and link it in here for voting? That way we record the consensus in a place that's a little more accessible than chat logs.

Sometimes, unfortunately, we only discover a lack of consensus when we start to act on the consensus we thought was there. Sorry Lee! Thanks for your efforts to improve our site, and I trust that this is just a minor disruption and we'll be back on track soon.

2:58 PM

@Anonymous Only the old ones are old.

@MonicaCellio No worries. I just want, if possible, to satisfy everyone's input and also to help the site :-) B"H, I will add msh210's answer to the meta question.

3:10 PM

@MonicaCellio Posted (meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/a/2020/2091)

2 hours later…

5:14 PM

I appreciate @DoubleAA's points here, but urge the MY and greater SE moderator community to discuss comment language policy. IMHO, there should be a policy against phrases like "your reasoning here is useless".

5:57 PM

@Lee thank you!

1 hour later…

7:21 PM

@Lee If you would like to propose a list of words to ban on the site you may do so on meta. If you want to limit the ban to our most trusted users you should include that (and some reasoning) in your proposal.

@DoubleAA מדקדק עם צדיקים כחוט השערה

@YEZ If you think that is relevant here you may include it in the post.

FWIW I wouldn't support such a carte blanche ban on just about any words or phrases.

@DoubleAA I was being irreverent. I don't think he indicated any such limitation on his ban.

(not that I don't think you fit into צדיקים)

@YEZ ~~Ahh i was reading the first edition of his chat post which he now deleted. oops. i will edit out some of the above now.~~ Wait. I'm confused why he said "moderator" in his chat comment?

@YEZ i definitely dont think that

7:42 PM

@DoubleAA I think he wanted the Moderators to lead the discussion. Not to be the subject of it.

@DoubleAA In all seriousness, I do think that higher rep users set the tone, and erring on the side of courteousness would be in order. I am not leveling accusations at anyone or agreeing on banning certain phrases, and I don't think rules should be imposed to enforce a higher standard, but there is logic to hold trusted users more responsible.

@YEZ Huh. Why can't he just lead it himself?

@DoubleAA You would have to ask him for his reasoning, but I can guess - he thinks that Moderators will have a clearer sense of what is appropriate or practical for each site and the .SE community at large. Or they will be more listened to.

@YEZ Ah. He seems to misunderstand what moderators do around here. @Lee You should read this

@DoubleAA well you can't blame him for my best guess until he confirms it. But yeah.

7:57 PM

@Lee @Flagger Would you prefer the term "of no use" or perhaps "not useful"? They all seem about the same. The post has a negative score for a reason.

Ha judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/45/…

8:45 PM

@Lee Hey, it wouldn't be MY without barely-concealed contempt behind every comment.

8:58 PM

Ooh, the British Library has digitized and posted 45 Hebrew manuscripts, apparently the first wave of a much larger project. The article mentions Golden Haggadah and London Codex; I haven't found a list of the other 43 yet. britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/asian-and-african/2014/04/…

9:24 PM

@Tatpurusha It's sad that you think that.

@MonicaCellio bl.uk/manuscripts/Default.aspx I searched hebrew and found a bunch of manuscripts.

Also fascinating bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=add_ms_15451_f002v looks like someone tried to erase the vav in ויהיו (page 7v top of third column)

@Tatpurusha I'm sorry you're not having a better experience. If you see specific cases please flag them.

@DoubleAA ah, that makes sense. Thanks.

@DoubleAA Chrome is telling me that page has a redirect loop. Hmm.

9:45 PM

@MonicaCellio try bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=add_ms_15451_f007v ?

@DoubleAA that works, thanks. Now, off to see the erased vav you mentioned.

@MonicaCellio For background, Temani Torah scrolls have the vav, and Ashkenazi and Sefardi scrolls do not. That's why I checked that spot.

@MonicaCellio It's more like a funny squiggle there, which might be code for "ignore this letter"

@DoubleAA oh thanks; I was about to ask why that spot was interesting (like, how'd you know to look there?).

Unsurprisingly it has דכא with an alef bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=add_ms_15451_f135v

Whoa!

It has Zecher with a segol bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=add_ms_15451_f137r

Weirdness.

It sounds like you have (in your head) a list of interesting places to check when looking at a new manuscript. Is there some way to formulate that into a question and answer here?

9:58 PM

@DoubleAA It also has zecher with a segol here. So it's consistently weird. bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=add_ms_15451_f427v

@DoubleAA I was going to ask if you'll be more attentive when they re-read it at Shabbos Zachor from now on, but now I'm not so sure.

Also how's that for a wacky nun bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=add_ms_15451_f009r

@MonicaCellio Hmmm. List of places in Tanakh with variant pronunciation or spelling or scribal-patterns? (The last one for instance is a place where some scribes write a specific nun sofit either upside down or otherwise in an unusual manner.)

@DoubleAA Is it a moderator trick to respond to your own chat comment?

@DoubleAA No.

How do I do it then?

I guess that was a hint.

10:02 PM

Yes it was :)

Look what is replying too.

@YEZ I'll think about it

darnit

Use a colon.

@DoubleAA maybe -- I wonder if that would be too broad. I wasn't sure if you were searching for something more specific, like the Teimani/Ashkenazi difference you noted first. (Like, maybe you were working down a list of those.)

@YEZ # -> :

Ahh i got it -

@MonicaCellio Well, those are included in variant spellings, no?

10:03 PM

I had the colon at the wrong end of the #.

@DoubleAA yes they are. At first I thought you were looking for that specific class of variants only -- the dangers of assuming from too little data. :-)

You can also just make up random old numbers and reply to them. It should work.

:14352345 let's see

@DoubleAA if I start getting chat-ping replies to messages I posted in 2011 I'll know whom to blame now. :-)

:1 Hello poster of first message ever!

nope.

10:05 PM

@MonicaCellio There are 8-9 spelling variants between Temani scrolls and A/S ones. You can ask for that list if you want

@YEZ hmmm. maybe it has to be in this room?

@IsaacMoses You're welcome!

:14860000 this is 720 messages ago

@DoubleAA probably. I don't think I've ever seen cross-room replies.

@YEZ judaism.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/9128

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