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3:43 AM
Couple design options I'm wrestling at and trying to come up with a third because both of these feel a little off
Putting together a hierarchical domain model of dumb objects to exist as an in-memory information store. Easy POCOs to put together and such, but because of it's purpose, constant updates will be coming in as well as constant reads from it etc.
The classical approach would be just implement a repo over top of it, single class that has gets/updates for all the different types of entities throughout the model
I'm going back and forth with that though, because a repo is a fair bit of maintenance as a single piece over time, though it gives a nice loose coupling through the system in a single place
@MichaelT So many circles.
@AshleyNunn Yep. Was challenging. I was like "another circle?!"
Alternatively I'm thinking about making the update messages coming in have a function that knows how to apply it's particular update with protection via internals so other classes couldn't write to the model; then expose the model as a live readonly graph. This makes writing reads against the model a breeze, as well as diminishing maintenance and getting clean segregation of read vs update which is always good to have go through different channels
@MichaelT That's just rude
this way the only repo-maintenance could be the update methods on the update messages
but it tightly couples the reading code to the particular domain model implementation, short of putting interfaces over each entity which is somewhat silly, the underlying implementation won't be replaceable without changing everywhere that reads from it
I'm leaning towards option number two because it seems like less maintenance over time with those update methods singly boxed up, and not having to write repo methods for every read, and largely because given the purpose of this model - the idea that the underlying implementation will ever need to be changed is pretty far fetched
@MichaelT thoughts?
or anyone else?
3:52 AM
@JimmyHoffa some 'useful' haskell: gitit.net ( github.com/jgm/gitit )
And a bit too late for thoughts. Just wanted to see if these old headphones properly paired to my laptop or if their battery was dead.
@MichaelT ah aye. Take it easy.
3 hours later…
6:41 AM
@gnat primarily opinion based? C'mon, that question screams off topic
This question appears to be off-topic because it is about ethics, and has nothing to do with programming. — Jimmy Hoffa 59 secs ago
MSO Feature Request: CV with req to Migrate to Yahoo Answers. SE can just repost the persons question to Yahoo Answers and make the question redirect just like it does now (until it get's hoovered up).
6:57 AM
@JimmyHoffa "nothing to do with programming" is a good catch, agree that makes it OT. I was hesitant to VtC for "ethics" part, it's sorta slippery:
Q: Flags and close votes based on ethical or moral issues

maple_shaftI believe that we should not use flags or close votes to enforce content that is legitimately on topic, yet has potential ethical or moral issues involved. Create a unterminable process in Windows I am going to be perfectly honest here, I don't believe him that he is not trying to create a piec...

@gnat Ah, yeah I don't see this fitting in what maple's talking about there. Maple's referring to programming questions that answered may aid someone to commit unethical acts, I didn't see that question as about any given programming problem at all so answering the person would have no ethical impact one way or another. It's just plainly got nothing to do with programming though.
they should take the question to philos.SE or something
isn't SE supposed to have a law site coming up soon?
or just have it migrated to Yahoo answers..
@JimmyHoffa well, anyway, less than 1/4 of questions are closed, to me it's a sign to proceed with caution and avoid blindly sticking OT. And... maybe overthinking the ethics stuff in there may be the reason why I missed the part you pointed to - "nothing to do with programming"
hey, you're less than 100 points off the 10K, good to see that
4 hours later…
11:02 AM
what is the point to keep this homework dump visible? (I just had a flag requesting its removal declined). Is it to demonstrate that one can vomit their assignment here and obtain help in answers / comments, to invite more askers like this?
Q: Big O of this approach?

InezaReplace Zeros public void replace0s(int[] data){ int max = Math.max(0, data[data.length – 1]); int start = data.length – 2; for(int i = start; i >= 0; i--){ if(data[i] == 0) data[i] = max; else max = Math.max(max, data[i]); } }

A: Programmers.SE and the Summer of Love

Robert HarveyResponding negatively to those folks who copy paste their homework assignments is just a waste of time. These people don't care how you react; they're looking for the one guy that will actually do their homework for them (some people will). Consequently, your negative comment will have no eff...

> Request for speedy deletion: this question is a copy-paste of something like homework assignment or interview questions, with no effort on the part of the OP to do the assignment himself. (flagging as per advice at meta discussion meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/a/3837/31260) => declined - a moderator reviewed your flag, but found no evidence to support it
no evidence, gimme a break
2 hours later…
12:54 PM
@gnat I looked at that one and considered tossing a VTD on there but decided not to. The Roomba will clear it out in a week or so, and it's not particularly offensive. It's worthless, don't get me wrong, but it's not gouge your eyes out let's get rid of it bad. Leaving crap, closed, down voted, unoffensive questions in place can serve as an example to show "don't ask questions like this." We have to balance between leaving "good" examples of bad questions lingering around so people ...
... know what not to ask. But we also have to weigh that against those who get upset at seeing all of the closed & down voted questions. Active community moderation is always a difficult line to walk.
1:22 PM
@GlenH7 well if I was a homework cheater, I think I'd read it opposite: worth trying to ask here. "For the price of creating an account and loosing 3 imaginary internet points, I get my assignment spoon fed right into my mouth, ain't it great"
as Robert put it in the answer above, "These people don't care how you react; they're looking for the one guy that will actually do their homework for them (some people will)"
True, but I generally don't worry much about them. The help vampires will always exist regardless of how quickly we delete off their questions. I try to focus on the broader community and how we grow that.
For the people looking to have their homework done for them - well, time will eventually catch up to them and they'll pay the price. Of course, then they'll open a question on TW that says "I cheated through college and can't keep up with my peers at work. What should I do?"
or they get question banned first
@ratchetfreak - so we hope. :-)
sure they will always be there, the only question is do we make site more attractive to them or less. I think by keeping questions like that, we do site more attractive for them. "These people don't care how you react; they're looking for the one guy that will actually do their homework for them (some people will)"
@ratchetfreak price of question ban is just a creation of new account, if I was homework cheater I would consider it negligible
1:26 PM
@gnat That's a valid counterargument. Potentially worth putting on meta to see how community reacts. Just because one mod chose to decline the delete doesn't mean that others disagree.
A: Programmers.SE and the Summer of Love

Robert HarveyResponding negatively to those folks who copy paste their homework assignments is just a waste of time. These people don't care how you react; they're looking for the one guy that will actually do their homework for them (some people will). Consequently, your negative comment will have no eff...

it's already there, for more than a year :)
now to get all the mods onboard
@GlenH7 quit your job
@enderland no, flush the toilet!
1:56 PM
Shh... its @YannisRizos
Rename "Hot Network Questions" to "gnat's picks"
Though the speedy VTD on homework? Yep. I do it.
@gnat I declined it. I've yet to be convinced that speedy delete is good. Leave a comment, give the user a chance to edit and learn the system. Deletion is harsh and can turn off otherwise good contributors.
Note that 3x vtd can be edited without an undelete while a mod (or community) delete requires an undelete to fix first.
And if Community deleted it, then you get into an undelete war with the script that only mods can partake in while the question gets worked on so it can get reopen votes.
2:00 PM

what is the point to keep this homework dump visible?

3 hours ago, 2 hours 24 minutes total – 18 messages, 3 users, 1 star

Bookmarked 16 mins ago by gnat

user has a chance to edit and learn the system when post is deleted
without attracting more help vampires to ask stuff like that
@ThomasOwens On the flipside, mod comments will reach the OP even if the post is deleted. The OP can fix the deleted post without fearing further downvotes, and flag it for undeletion when ready.
I'm for deletion if not improved in a reasonable timeframe.
But minutes after closure is, I think, too speedy.
I tend to give a few hours, a day tops, or recent activity on the site with no edits made. I think everyone can see last activity time on a profile, yes?
Typically, for low quality posts, what I do is I look at the comments and flag time. If there's no comment, I'd leave one. Otherwise, about 24 hours or some activity after the comment without improving means they have no desire to improve it, so I nuke it from orbit.
A: Couple of issues with Roomba Turbocharging

OdedThe issue with retag being different from edit is moot, as retag is gone. With edit, it is now enabled on deleted questions, unless they are self deletes, as this can open a window to abuse (self delete, edit and later undelete immediately). You can now also see revisions on your own deleted qu...

2:09 PM
@ThomasOwens Hm... If the question is unsalvageable, then I might delete it on sight. A recent example programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/232266/… - 3rd implementation question in a row, and there were comments in his older questions explaining he should ask on SO. He chose to ignore those comments (or is q-banned on SO), so... I chose to not waste too much time on his questions from now on.
@YannisRizos Unsalvageable is different. This one was salvagable, though, with an explanation of work. Even though the poster can see their own deleted questions, it still seems harsh and off-putting to new users. Fast down votes and closure is can be hard enough to deal with when learning something new.
@ThomasOwens Could be salvageable, but he already ignored the feedback he got on his previous couple of questions. And I highly suspect he's q-banned on SO, so even if he fixed the question, we couldn't migrate it. Lost cause this one, but in general I try to avoid deleting posts that are younger than a couple of days.
Sometimes the additional delete to say this isn't acceptable. That just closing isn't enough to say that this doesn't belong here. Raw homework dumps are especially frustrating for me... or one line interview puzzles/questions.
There is the intermittent "you guys are mean, everything is closed and downvoted on your front page" that shows up on our meta. One solution to this is "if it isn't something that can be reworked without heroism by another person - start the deletion process before waiting for the roomba".
2:25 PM
Thats like waiting until garbage day to throw out the piles of weeds that you've got sitting in the garden that you've already uprooted.
For example programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/232248/… - not salvageable. ChrisF already told him where to go with the question too. Asked 2 hours ago, last on site 20 min ago - so he saw the message (I hope). There's not too much reason to keep that sitting in the 'newest questions' list.
2:40 PM
Q: If I was a homework cheater

gnat...if I was a homework cheater, I would applaud an approach like that: I'm for deletion if not improved in a reasonable timeframe. But minutes after closure is, I think, too speedy. I tend to give a few hours, a day tops, or recent activity on the site with no edits made... I would appl...

2:53 PM
@GlenH7 ^^^ "putting on meta", as you mentioned
Another consideration, and I'll acknowledge that this is probably a controversial one. I don't want to "reward" people for answering (and getting upvotes or accepts) people giving help to homework dumps. If somehow they got an answer before it was closed it is moderately important to give feedback to the person answering it that answering these questions won't give you long term reputation boosts.
Part of the help vampire problem is people answer it. FGITW on SO is a nigtmare for this - all the crap answers to crap questions there preventing the roomba from acting on them.
aka starve the vampires
A quick delete gives prompt feedback to the person answering the question too. If you wait a week or two for the roomba to act the potency of this feedback is lost.
sometimes I answer an off topic question when I know it will get migrated to SO, but I guess I should wait until the actual migration...
3:01 PM
@ratchetfreak In all honesty, sometimes people answer those on the original site so they get double the rep at the migration target (the who voted isn't transfered as part of the migration so they can vote again on it)
The danger though is again that a good answer here and a rejected migration will make it harder to delete here later.
I personally don't see too much value in keeping rejected migrations here around for too long if it is blatantly off topic here.
rejected migrations should be quickly deleted
well rejections caused by question ban at least
as that is clearly someone trying to circumvent a ban
Those are failed to migrate... could think of them as rejected. But rejected migrations otherwise too - someone asks a SO question on P.SE, we migrate, they close as some SO specific off topic reason (lacks enough information to answer) and bounces back here...
3:05 PM
those should be deleted too.
And even if they were salvageable for migration it takes a significant amount of work and communication to try to bounce them back onto SO again
3:19 PM
I'm a bit confused. Users can now see their deleted questions from their questions page (or wherever)?
click on the link called "deleted recent questions" at the bottom
of your question page
@ratchetfreak thanks! I hadn't noticed that before. Also saw it exists with Answers too
One thing I have been checking on before VTD'ing is if the user has returned to see their question closed. I was trying to avoid the inevitable chorus of "where did my crap question go?" questions.
But if that's not an issue now... :-)
I think they also get a notification in the top bar on deletion
3:24 PM
I guess it would help if I asked more crap questions so I could see what actually happens... :-)
or answer more crap answers
I have thrown some snark answers on questions I knew were going to be deleted. I see them in my recently deleted answers page, but I don't believe I was ever notified. They hadn't been up voted, so no rep to lose & notice.
migrations notify you
but indeed answers to deleted questions don't notify you besides the rep change
no idea how moderation action does it though
I take that back - it was a bad example. I self-deleted because it wasn't snarky enough.
this one was deleted and I didn't get a notification programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/230924/…
3:33 PM
@ratchetfreak Ahh... Andy.
@MichaelT I was thinking that was him, yes
I don't remember being involved in nuking that one.
Community got that one. Might have been part of the user nuke.
It was one of his less trollish questions.
that one you did nuke
3:38 PM
Yep. While you did have a good answer to it, the question was almost a rant and didn't really have a clear point to it.
@ratchetfreak so I assume your Haskell training is well along by now?
I've got some more URLs for you!
I'm pretty busy trying to keep my java out of my C++
@MichaelT That's almost exactly the same logic I followed as well.
Its an awkward situation - the question shouldn't have been asked that way in the first place. If it was a better question that wasn't a near rant that got heavily downvoted it might have just sat at closed.
@ratchetfreak Oh you don't have to worry about that, you can write your Java and your C++ in Haskell!
3:40 PM
All too often we get people finding one closed rant and not seeing that as enough of a "don't ask these questions" warning flag they ask another... and then we've got two questions to clean up later.
and I lost 85 rep by those 2 deletions :(
@ratchetfreak I x2 checked to make sure you were well over 10k at that point IIRC
No, it shouldn't matter. But I still check to see who would be losing (or gaining) rep off of the delete
sometimes I feel bad about giving rep back to users who asked horrific questions.
@ratchetfreak I know... it sucks when that happens.
3:42 PM
Just wait until we get another tequila fueled Yannis purge the next time he tries to learn Haskell.
I think that if the question survives 3 months, then things at +3 or more don't get the rep taken away when it is deleted.
heavy emphasis on think
@MichaelT I didn't know vote level influenced it. I thought it was just age of post.

Design options

12 hours ago, 8 minutes total – 11 messages, 3 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 8 secs ago by Jimmy Hoffa

Anybody got any ideas? --^
@JimmyHoffa I have been meaning to re-read and ponder that one
3:45 PM
Thoughts? I don't see a fitting site question there, otherwise I'd ask on the site.
I keep going back and forth in my head, both approaches seem good, both approaches seem flawed, and I can't come up with an approach that avoids the flaws of both
I'd lean to the second option. I'd also ask a question. Would take a bit to craft it right, but there's a main site question in there too.
I'm going with option 2 as well.
The coupling is tighter, but with the benefit of less maintenance.
You may be able to phrase the question as "how to trade-off between maintenance and low-coupling?"
The fact that you're very unlikely to change the underlying representation without a lot of work anyway is what pushed me towards option 2.
3:54 PM
Iduno, I have a hard time finding a non-opinion question in there... that may be partially because in my head I can see both options as equally viable
@gnat - I put a question in your rant. Forgive me. :-D
@JimmyHoffa Both options are valid, which is what makes it difficult.
So the question is what do you need to consider in order to make the decision
...fuck it all, I'll just put it in a monad. That'll make everything better. I have faith! Don't fail me now, o silver bullet o mine!
I had also been entertaining the idea that the entities would know how to process their update messages themselves, but that became clearly non-viable because each entity would have to know about to many different messages that could alter it's state
I think I'll just move forward with approach #2, it feels clean and simple and right, I'm just thinking it'll suck when one entity get's moved around in the hierarchy and every reference to it will have to have it's travel-path down the hierarchy to that entity changed...
One of the great frustrations / failings of OOP is that we've got all of this dumb data. The ideals of "smart data objects" that OOP has just don't jive with the realities of how most enterprise systems are built and maintained. We've got data that gets serialized and passed between systems and layers... and trying to keep all the intelligence on that becomes unmaintainable.
4:01 PM
@MichaelT even ignoring the integration points, the smart objects approach just fails the sniff test of coupling, you end up with objects all knowing about eachother in terribly complete graphs
OOP is "great" for buttons that know what they do when you click them, or form fields that do their own validations. But for data manipulation... it kind of sucks unless you really work to put the business logic into the data too... but that rapidly becomes an unmaintinable stinking heap.
I'm inclined to reject as the first replacement doesn't directly point back to the OP
And then drop a comment on the post so George can update it
@MichaelT which is why - unfortunately - the N tier is still the de facto reach for most experienced OO devs; it's the least unmaintainable in the long run of the options in OO
4:03 PM
@GlenH7 try chasing the original links?
or remove the plugs entirely
Yep. Any improvement is an improvement.
the entire blog those links pointed to is gone
@ratchetfreak ding!
4:04 PM
That allowed me to reward the editor but also not put potentially bad links in place.
@ratchetfreak now that you're my knew Haskell friend, you should make sure and get up to speed on the MonadPlus reform proposal; left catch is a really important distinguisher that should be broken off as it's a side effect of monoid more than monadplus, right? I know. haskell.org/haskellwiki/MonadPlus_reform_proposal
@ratchetfreak our condolences.
@JimmyHoffa sorry but I don't have the time or dedication to learn haskell at this point
@ratchetfreak that's ok, you only need the time to be occasionally trolled by a Haskeller.
@ratchetfreak probably just as well so we don't have to apologize about periodically muting you in chat. :-)
4:06 PM
And is Jimmy saying something? Not haskell related...
> Pandoc is used for markup processing, so pages may be written in (extended) markdown, reStructuredText, LaTeX, HTML, or literate Haskell, and exported in ten different formats, including LaTeX, ConTeXt, DocBook, RTF, OpenOffice ODT, and MediaWiki markup.
Literate Haskell?!
(the codes written in haskell too: github.com/jgm/gitit )
@MichaelT thanks for the link; that is neat.
4:10 PM
@JimmyHoffa As much as I make fun of haskell, it is a useful language.
depends on the usecase though, but so does everything else
There are reasons that I was forced to learn ML back in college for language theory class... I thought it was lisp with semi-colons and fewer parens. But the concepts there were useful in the long run about another way of thinking about code.
@ratchetfreak No, I'm pretty sure J# is useless.
Any language that changes how you think about code is worth learning. The challenge is there are too many languages that are worth learning... and I still want to get my video game time in too.
@ratchetfreak that's an unfortunate misnomer; it's really a general use language like Java or C#, you just don't often run into enough people who actually know it to hear that little truth.
4:11 PM
@GlenH7 no it means noone has found a use-case for it yet
@ratchetfreak to-may-to or ta-mah-to; doesn't matter. It's useless. :-)
@MichaelT Yeah; my Haskelling came from having a job for a bit of a while that was so technically debilitating I had to code at home just to keep my sanity. Nowadays it's netflix and video games in my off time
and no I'm not going to try and find one
4:35 PM
@enderland you need more 20ks.
A: How can I get my colleagues to speak a language I understand?

user3074364Are you the hysterical French colleague of my Norwegian acquaintance?

no kidding
you only have 4
See, when you become a mod on TW, you can give all your rep to @JimmyHoffa with bounties on his favorite answer so he can then help out... but for that matter, you'd be able to delete them yourself too.
or you need to go back to beta where the rep requirements aren't so steep
4:41 PM
Part of the trick is to engage the 20ks. Flags where they can delete the question is one way.
@MichaelT great answer by the way: it gave Chad the justification to protect the question from lemmings, slightly dragged its hotness score down with answer downvotes (17/5 -5=-1,6) and gave me a chance to have yet another helpful flag
I've noticed quite a few "flag not an answer" or "flag low quality" do get more prompt attention (despite the bar for low quality not being low quality - but they do get deleted / closed faster than a regular close flag)
Ohh! Chad is newly 15k on TW. Another 5k to 20k.
A: When are Elections?

Grace NoteWe usually start looking into running elections about 30 days after a site graduates. Y'know, give it some nice foot room when they stew with their new design and privileges first, let people get comfortable and adjusted to the new reign. Exact dates may vary as we always start elections on Monda...

March 24, in beginning of April TWP will likely get better protection
@JimmyHoffa your design question, I'd still be tempted to ask it on the main site just to see how it gets answered... and upvoted. 9919 rep at the moment. Its not a bad question.
> Time to bring in the cleaning ladies!
@GlenH7 "You should cheat your way into management ASAP. You are already skilled at taking credit for the work of others, so that should be a good foundation."
5:00 PM
A: What exactly is the Garbage Collector in Java?

gnatFor the visually minded, here's a parable by Kieron Briggs: Picture a big empty room with a big furnace/incinerator type thing at one end. Hanging form the roof are a number of ropes, called Threads. Attached to the various threads are little sparkly Objects, and those Objects can have other ...

more like guys to pick up crap from the floor
5:12 PM
@MichaelT I'm mildly shocked that all the answers were in English.
@psr So posting toDSaH in that wouldn't be a good idea?
(epithet) ["This is something one Klingon would call another if they weren't on the best of terms." (CK) "wimp, nerd, geek, suck-up" (Mark Shoulson). "... has the elements of rescue and concerned. Calling someone this would imply that they are concerned about having someone come to their rescue rather than facing the business at hand. Always asking, `When is my shift over?' `When will we get reinforcements?' `Why don't they send help?' A coward." (Kevin A. Geiselman) The unofficial definition: It implies foppishness, and softness and weakness.
@psr The other appropriate answer would have been "just quit"
5:28 PM
A: Can a single developer still make money with shareware?

Robert HarveyBased on what we now know about buyer habits, the way you get people to buy software they otherwise wouldn't pay money for is to get them hooked on a "basic" version, and then offer them additional paid features. This model was first tried by Id software, the makers of "Doom." They offered a f...

For what it's worth. I did vote to close the question, however.
ACK. Community Wiki.
5:46 PM
SE team is going to help hot list lemmings in reaching sites they like...
"guess which sites you like" - oh no, this likely means more hordes of passers-by from hot list that just happen to liek c00l stuff at softer sites like Workplace and Programmers, with their senseless answers and votes. As if we didn't have enough damage already. You'd better redirect them to Stack Overflow, where it's claimed to be an issue of -17 prioritygnat 1 min ago
@RobertHarvey And .... almost all of the answers are now gone thanks to yours truly. :) No fireworks though.
@GlenH7 What the hell were people doing trying to migrate that to Stack Overflow? Are they crazy?
The migration rejection is what apparently killed most of the answers.
@RobertHarvey I may have misread, but I think that was crap flushed here from SO back in the dark old days. And the answers were deleted because closing it on progs "rejected" the migration from SO.
I flagged it to either be nuked or have the answers undeleted. Honestly, I think it ought to be nuked
I don't get it. How was I able to answer the question if it had been migrated to Stack Overflow?
And how could the migration have been rejected 8 minutes ago if the question on Stack Overflow was deleted ages ago?
6:03 PM
A: Allow diamond moderators to reverse question migrations?

Kevin Montrosestatus-completed... sort of. It's now possible to reject a migration, but rather than making this some special mod-only thing or yet another privilege/task you have to familiarize yourself with, it's instead a function of closing/deleting. If a migrated question is closed on the destination (mi...

@gnat Yes, exactly. It says that If a migrated question is closed on the destination (migration target) site as anything other than "exact duplicate" or "belongs on another site" (but not generic "off topic") it will result in the migration being rejected. If a migrated question is deleted, it will also be rejected.
But the question was deleted on Stack Overflow two years ago. So how could it have been rejected 10 minutes ago?
Ah, hell with it. Not important enough to care about.
@RobertHarvey rejection throws it away from destination site, not worrying of what is there at the source (iirc I saw MSO post or comment about that)
I can't see the timeline here on Programmers, so I can't tell for sure what happened.
@RobertHarvey I think it's poor phrasing.
6:10 PM
We have seen similar before with old migrations
So I'm just confused because it took us two years to get the migrated question closed.
@GlenH7 No, because you have the magic link.
You'd think SE would provide a link on the page, if they're going to offer something as a service.
Question migrated from SO -> Progs way back when.
Question survives site redirection from NPR days
eons pass
The vigilant finally see the crap question, VTC
Closed question deletes all answers that were migrated with the question. Which is why your answer (put in on Progs) is still there
@RobertHarvey I never understood why it wasn't directly offered up either.
I have memorized the pattern though, since I have used it a number of times
Mods have a link, but only if there are deleted comments. It's really weird.
6:21 PM
Q: Apply the same "rules of migration" to rejected migrations

animusonNow that migration to other sites is quite limited, not being able to migrate questions which have been on the site for at least 60 days, it makes sense to apply those same rules to rejecting migrations. Questions which have been migrated and sat around on the target site for months, a year, or ...

^^^ I voted it down, but only because I like how closing old crap migrated from SO wipes stuff out
objectively this sounds like fair request though
I think the annoying part is that the "rejected" question is automatically locked by Community. That keeps the rest of the community from being able to do anything with it to easily salvage the good stuff.
@GlenH7 well if honestly this funny lock was never an obstacle to me. When I feel strongly that something should be done over there, I just flag explaining it and moderators take care of my haiku
@gnat haiku really isn't my strong suite though. So the mod flag is boring and therefore runs the risk of being rejected solely because it lacked any entertainment.
6:36 PM
@GlenH7 at 4610 helpful flags I feel like rejections bother me somewhat less than before
why u no haiku
it really is not that hard
just five seven five
@gnat This is progress! :-) I'm relatively certain I have more rejected flags than you do. But the rejection doesn't mean that much to me. If you're not getting any flags rejected then you're not flagging often enough. Or so someone who purported to be wise had said a while back...
@enderland Because I'm trying to wrap my head around taking a scheduled, procedural routine and turning it into a functional, near real-time routine.
Coworker phrase "recent future"
@MichaelT accumulate enough of those and other pastures start looking greener. :-)
6:46 PM
@MichaelT java.util.concurrent.Future recent
7:01 PM
@gnat: You should try to make your question objections more specific. It's canned reasons that got us into trouble with WSOiN in the first place.
@RobertHarvey I'll consider your advice if I find that my objections don't work as intended
Honestly, the system objections aren't all that great. They're generalized, because the SE software doesn't know why the question is bad specifically, and the Meta community is always arguing over the wording.
Human to human communication is always preferable over machine to human.
Anyway, the objection you gave to that question doesn't even fit. That canned response originates from Stack Overflow's "How to Ask" page, and it pertains to research on software issues, not organizational concerns. I'm not sure what kind of research you expect him to cough up, other than "I told my management, but they told me I'm full of shit."
@MichaelT as opposed to the "distant future" - which is the future technology you avoided several years ago as opposed to the future technology you avoided just last week i.e. .NET 3.5 is a distant future, .NET 4.5 is a recent future
(ok .NET 4.5 is edging near a distant future already...)
@GlenH7 I wish I still had the Kennisms from my past employment. Things like "We'll blow that up like the Titanic" and "You can't cut the mustard when you're swimming in catch-up"
Just make it eventful /
Open a push channel to it /
Then process real time
7:16 PM
Jimmy hoffa writes
software that is poetic
almost a haiku
@RobertHarvey the minimal research that comes to mind is to get to chat (yes, right over here) and discuss this issue prior to dumping a question at main site. Fair enough?
f a b c d
e f g h i j k
l m n o p
Haskel haiku
@gnat Then say that, not dump a generic description.
JimmyHoffa will now do a Haskell haiku quicksort
7:21 PM
Thank you so much John.I can realize now how much valuable this forum for us. and one thing I should remember that I'm asking for help not demanding so I must be polite. — Jemes Bond 36 mins ago
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10
11 12
"Bond... James Bond. And I'm polite." (takes a sip of his martini... shaken, not stirred).
mo monad monad
monad monad monad mo
monad monad mo
21 mins ago, by gnat
@RobertHarvey I'll consider your advice if I find that my objections don't work as intended
Yeah, I saw it. Have yet to see much impact.
@RobertHarvey It was a MSO question that got migrated to M.Photo.SE - local mod, elseSE mod, and I gave answers to try to explain the process and the user seems to have come around to realizing how things work on SE as a whole a bit better now.
7:26 PM
@gnat People who write poor questions generally don't read canned messages either. Otherwise they wouldn't be asking poor questions, since they obviously read the "How to Ask" page before posting.
It started out as a "why was this duped?! What was this merge? Where are the answers to my questions?!" type question.
@gnat Just as I suspected. He didn't answer your "share your research" plea. Instead, he gave his personal experiences from within the company.
@RobertHarvey as long as it helps to narrow the question, I don't mind how they interpret the comment. Whatever they derive from How to Ask page - as long as they do that - is good enough to me
Reminder to Close Voters: Migrations to Stack Overflow should only involve questions that are of sufficient quality that they have a reasonable chance of succeeding on Stack Overflow. If this state does not exist, close the question using the custom close reason: "This question appears to be off-topic because it is about an implementation issue."Robert Harvey 52 secs ago
@RobertHarvey I'm going to wait till monday to toss some of that rep I got from the question on MSO about "this is crap don't migrate migration path" in a bounty on it o see if I can get some more SE attention on it.
7:43 PM
@AshleyNunn heh glance at the avatars of meta.photo.stackexchange.com/questions/4341 (mine isn't of a cat... but hey) and wonder if theres a relationship between cats and photographers.
@MichaelT Well, Cavan's makes sense, he's a pet mod with me :)
And then there's:
> I operate a professional wedding photography business with the goal of bringing affordable, quality photographic services to my community. I am a die hard Canon since buying my first Canon GL2 for my wedding videography days that started back in high school.
His cat is named F Stop.
7:45 PM
And there's a job that I'll never do again... even for family. Wedding photography = $TRE$$
@RobertHarvey There's a story that some famous photographer had a three legged dog named Tripod.
(and this is the way I find the photographer with the quotes poster:
The photograph is named "One and a half domes"
Which gets me to tedorland.com/truths.html
7:48 PM
"Mounting a photograph is a felony in Arkansas"
"The best scenic turnouts are clearly designated by highway signs reading No Stopping Anytime."
then shoot from a moving vehicle
or cause an "accident"
"At critical moments your camera will alert you to amazing photographic scenes by flashing the words Warning: Low Battery"
or memory card full
The guy who did that is an amazing photographer... student of Ansel Adams back in the day... but he's best known for his holga work. tedorland.com/holga/holga.html tedorland.com/panoramas/panorama.html
7:52 PM
8:04 PM
@MichaelT I have a wall in my house that a large version of that would fit perfectly on.
@RobertHarvey If you are serious about wanting large photographs... panoscapes.com
His largest standard size is 24"x72" (2 feet x 6 feet)
(that was a matte print... his canvas prints go up to 32x96)
And compared to other photographers of that size, he is very affordable.
@Doval: There's nothing to disagree about. 9000 is absolutely correct; immutable objects are easier to reason about. That's partly what makes them so useful for concurrent programming. The other part is that you don't have to worry about the state changing. Premature optimization is irrelevant here; the use of immutable objects is about design, not performance, and poor choice of data structures up-front is premature pessimization. — Robert Harvey 1 min ago
8:12 PM
Immutable objects are typically not performance optimal in a memory usage sense if you don't know what you're doing anyway in languages not like Haskell.
@MichaelT those are incredible
Yeah, those are really nice prints.
@psr confession: I've never implemented quicksort. I'm not even sure I've ever implemented any sorting algorithm.
but I do get occasional rep from this answer
A: C#.NET :How to Sort a List <T> by a property in the object

Jimmy HoffaDoing it without Linq as you said: public class Order : IComparable { public DateTime OrderDate { get; set; } public int OrderId { get; set; } public int CompareTo(object obj) { Order orderToCompare = obj as Order; if (orderToCompare.OrderDate < OrderDate || orde...

@WorldEngineer You can get most of the benefits of immutability by following some simple rules and being careful. One commenter on another question suggested that if there was any way that the private members of an object could be modified, then it's not immutable by definition, which throws C# right out.
which is basically the same thing as writing your own sorting algorithm :D
8:22 PM
@RobertHarvey right because private != immutable. Hell, "final" in Java isn't fully immutable.
@RobertHarvey "premature pessimization" -> Oh I love that turn of phrase. I'm going to have to remember that one; I can't stand it when people do that shit.
What does that phrase even mean?
@WorldEngineer And yet, you can make a member a read-only property, and still get all the benefits of immutability, if you don't allow Reflection.
@WorldEngineer well, you can get damn near perfectly immutable if you just only use value types.
but that's basically impossible to do
and a fucking terrible idea as well
8:25 PM
@WorldEngineer It means that some developers don't consider performance at all when designing their application (because it's premature), and then they get to the end and find out a (non) decision that they made earlier causes the application to fail in some performance-critical way (like a video player having an insufficient frame rate), and now they're fucked, because now they have to rewrite their application from scratch.
better way to go about it is just to be fully aware of your security accessors you set on all of your values and being diligent. You can put readonly all over members etc
@RobertHarvey try telling this to my coworkers. "we'll worry about performance later!" "no, I don't want to @#%#@ us over later by doing that to myself now"
plus I'm a perfectionist. can always be faster
@WorldEngineer Everytime someone says "I don't need to pay attention to performance until I have performance problems" -> and then creates performance problems because they don't need to pay attention to them yet so that somehow absolves them of creating them
@RobertHarvey hence the importance of determining where performance criticality is a design requirement and not optimization
@WorldEngineer It's less about that, it's about just common sense stuff that people ignore- I've seen people say "No I won't use a stringbuilder here because this code doesn't have any shown performance problems." but the code is brand new, the performance problems don't come until after they've written the terrible code.
8:28 PM
That's a reasonably good example. Good design means having enough experience where you can insert performance enhancements as you go, where they make sense, rather than saying "we'll add it later, if we need to."
it's a purist form of YAGNI/AGILE/IGNORE-EVERYTHING-YOU-WANT/EAT-ANYTHING-STILL-LOSE-WEIGHT lies people fill their head with because they want to believe it
I will do backflips to put a Van Emde Boas tree in here because we query this constantly and if we can get the data to do that then we get O(log(log(n)))
Well, that might be premature. Unless you profile first.
maybe not
8:30 PM
fair enough
@enderland I know the photographer - often helped him when he was at the local art festival in cali.
that's fairly cheap wall artwork, too
The main problem with not doing premature optimization is that you often don't know whether a given optimization is actually premature until after it's too late.
8:32 PM
(we took those photos about 3 feet apart)
Looks like a bit of color-enhancement work was applied there.
Film choice.
He was shooting velvia, underexposed a bit. I was shooting E100G and overexposed a tad.
We get stunning sunsets where I live. I could take digital photos to Costco and get a wall-sized mural for about $350. Granted, it wouldn't be nearly as nice as those.
That particular photo is the Mammoth Mountain in Mammoth Lakes, CA.
8:36 PM
Shot at the top of Lookout Point Road: google.com/maps/@37.656368,-119.061035,17z/data=!5m1!1e4
@MichaelT I've been told people basically require sun filters and shit to do any semi-professional photography here because the nearness of the sun white washes everything; that about right?
realizes he's eaten half a box of Maui cookies
Clearly those cookies were prematurely optimized for eating...
@JimmyHoffa Day? Sunset? or what?
@WorldEngineer Keep going, some day you'll actually warp into existence when your weight becomes a positive number
@MichaelT day
8:37 PM
@JimmyHoffa hey, I did gain 10 lbs since my last weigh in
@WorldEngineer Someone thought you would apply You Ain't Gonna Eat It.
You don't shoot at the sun, you try to avoid it. The sky is still quite bright though, and using a polarlizer filter you can deepen the blue of the sky and hold it back a bit.
If you want to get the foreground and the sky, you use a ND grad. singh-ray.com/grndgrads.html
For sunset and sunrise, a reverse ND grad is what you really want. singh-ray.com/reversegrads.html
Or a polarized filter.
8:38 PM
@MichaelT Or you use this right?
@JimmyHoffa That looks interesting.
Aye, my boss sent the link out just the other day; I didn't dig any further into it other than to realize the concept and be kind of dumbstruck that it can even be done somehow
At only $400, I'll get one. Won't be too much of an increase in the amount I'm going to spend for camera equiment this year if the house fixes aren't too much.
@MichaelT You'll have to share when you do some pictures and how it works. I'm really curious what data format it ultimately outputs to it's memory...
has to be proprietary
Every photograph is restricted by the equipment - thats part of what makes photography challenging. It never sees what you see.
8:42 PM
If I understand the technique correctly, the data is 3d; not just layered 2d, so it's probably writing some data format that's related to a 3d model
@JimmyHoffa: When you guys get done talking about photography, I have a quick question for you.
And while this is a "point and shoot" it really does take thought about composition, lighting, and such to properly use it. And its not a traditional camera so what you knew of traditional work probably isn't applicable either.
.BSP is a map file extension used in games such as the Quake series, and games that use the Source engine, such as the Half-Life series and the Portal series. .BSP files use binary space partitioning to generate levels that can be rendered quickly while minimizing the number of polygons that need to be redrawn every time the screen refreshes. One of the biggest problems with the .BSP file format is that large open areas do not work well due to the nature of the partitioning algorithm used. Unlike the maps used in Unreal Tournament, .BSP files work by defining the edges of the map objects,...
@RobertHarvey Yes, Haskell can do that. I know you don't want to put that kind of project on your resume but if you're going to do it, you may as well use a language that'll get it done quickly so you can be done with the whole affair post haste.
Its got a constant f/2 aperture (thats a reasonably fast lens)
Its got some iOS integration points too.
8:45 PM
@JimmyHoffa So now you're answering questions via time-travel, before they're even asked? I though only Jon Skeet had that capability.
@RobertHarvey He works in the recent future too.
@RobertHarvey I use a tardis
@RobertHarvey ask away...
Oh, btw, @RobertHarvey fun with polarizers: singh-ray.com/varind.html (its my most valuable both in cost and in utility filter.)
@JimmyHoffa Eric Raymond once said: "Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp itself a lot." Have you learned Lisp, and did you have this enlightenment experience? If so, what was it like? Did you have a similar epiphany with Haskell?
8:50 PM
@RobertHarvey I have played with LISP but would hesitate to say that I necessarily "learned" it to any degree. I suspect I had the same reaction from Haskell, and as such am unlikely to find such an "epiphone" in LISP; though I'll say macros are wicked cool from what I played with them. I think what he spoke about is the Y combinator; in a sense. There's a reason it's in the MIT CS department logo, there's a reason the little schemer is an entire book that builds to the climax of the Y combinator
There's a reason a company started by ex-MIT guys called themselves Y combinator
It's not the Y combinator per se; but what it represents that is so interesting, and that you will unlikely ever learn from imperative code
I feel like there's this whole world out there, hidden from me because I stopped learning math at high school algebra.
It's about recursion. In Haskell you learn to model computation as data, and you model recursive data constantly; seeing recursive computations extend from that naturally and how computation is data is pretty cool, and gives you a totally different tool that "step1; step2; step3;" would never show you
@RobertHarvey So did I. I was kicked out of high school and never went to college :P
I get that same sense when I read higher level category theory shit or trying to wrap my head around arrows and stuff, but I don't suspect algebra would have helped in any way with all that. Not even the college level algebra would open that door I suspect.
I finally went back and did the whole college thing, though I never got back into higher math. It's funny how differently companies treat you when you have a degree.
LISP's macros represent a form of recursion; a form of recognizing computations as data and adjusting your computations by adjusting the data
I suspect it's that same thread of recursion and viewing computations as data which may adjust data which adjusts computations (which adjusts data ...) that is that epiphone Eric Raymond referred to
Alternatively maybe he had an aneurym; or is just a loose tongued evangelist
I suspect that macros are the part of LISP I will find most interesting, even though most LISPers say you don't need them, about 90% of the time.
8:57 PM
@RobertHarvey yeah, I don't suspect you do need them most of the time, I wager it's recognizing a way of modeling computations as data that gives that since of things being very different. Think about how yield works in C#, it returns a proxy object that's effectively just an expression- a value and a bit of data that details what to do next. When you yield up multiple layers you've just tied together multiple functions and passed around the rest of their activities as a piece of data.
That's about the closest you get to seeing computations in the form of data in C#
when you write LINQ queries on a collection and have this computation object which until you say .ToList() is never executed. You can add more queries to it which extends the computation and you're just altering the computation as data
until you call .ToList() you're not actually doing anything
(or iterate it in any way that is)
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