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kan
6:46 AM
@tohecz did not see your ping! Anyway, I'd be around until the next time you are back... :)
 
 
3 hours later…
9:20 AM
Sunday lazy Sunday.
2
:)
 
@PauloCereda :-)
 
@JosephWright <3
They look like lemons! — Istvan Chung yesterday
@DavidCarlisle: ^^ :)
 
9:50 AM
@PauloCereda My TeX has to do stress tests right now, so no time for laziness :-)
 
@StephanLehmke Oh no! :)
 
Happy 1st Advent by the way - do you even celebrate that?
@PauloCereda Well the CPU cooler is running full time - additional heating on a chilly day ;-)
 
@StephanLehmke I guess so. :)
@StephanLehmke My Linux box is very quiet, but when I run some heavy computation, it looks like I have an aircraft turbine nearby. :) And we have serious problems with heating, since temperatures here are usually very high. :) And I don't have air conditioning. :(
 
 
4 hours later…
1:41 PM
For no reason:
Best version ever, featured by They might be giants. :)
 
 
1 hour later…
2:46 PM
@PauloCereda Well, lazy Sunday ... I got home at 3am, the corridor on my floor was quite smokey and my room was quite full of smoke, much more than the corridor. I didn't find any source of that smoke, but it seems to be still appearing from somewhere, which makes me seriously worried :(
 
@tohecz I hope everything works out OK for you (and your neighbours).
 
@DavidCarlisle I'm a bit worried that it's actually coming from my room. There're places I can't check easily for sources (like behind my shower stall). It can be as well coming from inside of my small electrical radiator, if it got very dusty inside somewhere.
Well, now I'm going to be for several hours at home and awake, so I can check what's going on
 
3:14 PM
hi
I have a question, could you please answer me
I want to start using Latex for my research, as I hreard that its a powerful software especially for writting equations.
could you please tell me how I start?
what is the best way to learn about Latex?
 
@barznjy Hi! There's a good post about it on the site, let me find it
154
Q: What is the best book to start learning LaTeX?

ViviWhich book (free or otherwise) was the most useful to you when you started learning LaTeX? I am frequently asked this question by friends who want to learn LaTeX, and I recommend the book which got me started, The Not So Short Introduction to LaTeX2ε, but I feel that there might be better option...

 
@tohecz thanks
 
@barznjy Are you a native English speaker?
 
no, but all my study is in english. and I am in the UK for my research
 
@barznjy Well, I recommend the "Not so short introduction in LaTeX" (2nd post in that page). It comes in many languages:
45
Q: LaTeX Introductions in languages other than English

IpsenInspired by What is the best book to start learning LaTeX?, I thought that it might be useful to collect a list of the many brilliant introductory LaTeX books and tutorials written in languages other than English. I think that such a list could be helpful to many new users. And who would be bette...

 
3:21 PM
@tohecz many thanks
 
@barznjy you're most welcome of course :) and make yourself at ease here /gives barznjy a beer
 
@tohecz I downloaded The Not So Short Introduction to LATEX2" from the website that you posted. Latex software if free? how I can download it? as I know my university use a version of Latex called TexMaker 'I think'
 
@barznjy TeXmaker is a editor of LaTeX files, not the program itself. The best way to go is to get TeXlive, gimme a sec
Get here the proper thing for your system: tug.org/texlive/acquire-netinstall.html
The best thing is to do a full install, it's around 3GB if I remember correctly, so if you have enough space on your hard-drive, go for it.
 
@tohecz I dowloaded the zip file the size is 50 M. yes I have enough space I want full download.
 
@barznjy that's an installer. It will download all the stuff itself
 
3:39 PM
@tohecz could you please tell me which file is the installer? there are several files and folders, and I can't see any excutable files
 
@barznjy you're on Windows, right?
 
yes
 
well, there should be install-tl.bat
 
@tohecz there is only one install-tl file which is HTML file
 
And have you downloaded the Windows version?
 
3:44 PM
yes
 
That's strange. When I download it, there's one folder named install-tl-20131130 and inside, there're many files, one of them is the Batch file
 
@tohecz Oh my!
 
I download it again, and when I run this batvh file it will install all the software? right?
 
@barznjy yes, that's it. Well, it'll ask you couple questions first ;)
 
@tohecz thank you very much
 
3:46 PM
@PauloCereda yeah, tell me that. I can't really say if there's still some more smoke or it's just that everything smells by the smoke :-/
 
@tohecz Maybe some short circuit?
 
@PauloCereda well, I checked all the accessible parts of the electricity for burn stains, but nothing. Actually, now I realized that there's something that looks like burn in a corner, but the only thing that is there are the water and waste pipes
 
@tohecz Did you use \usepackage{l3fire} somewhere in your document? :)
Oh sorry for making a joke, this is actually serious. :)
@tohecz: your portable devices are ok too?
 
@PauloCereda It's important to keep fresh mind :)
 
@tohecz <3
 
3:56 PM
@PauloCereda yes, all lamps, fridge, microwave, and the heating seem to be ok. It can be the case that some dust got into the heating and got burnt, that's so far the only explanation I have, if I assume it comes from my place
 
@tohecz Got it.
 
4:27 PM
@tohecz when I run install-tl.bat I receive this message
 
@barznjy well, I'm not a Windows person, so I don't think I can help you :-/
 
@barznjy Did you run in advanced mode?
 
@JosephWright YOU mean administrator permission, yes
 
@barznjy No, I mean the install-tl-advanced batch file
 
@JosephWright No, I will try this now
@JosephWright is everyhting correct? can I procced?
 
4:38 PM
@barznjy Just accept all of the defaults
 
@JosephWright thank you, is this include TexMaker (the editor of Latex)?
 
@barznjy No. It includes another (La)TeX editor, called TexWorks, but not Texmaker.
@barznjy So if you want Texmaker, just download it from xm1math.net/texmaker and install, after finishing with the Tex Live installation.
 
@TorbjørnT. Great, thanks. which one is the best editor?
 
@barznjy That question has no answer, it depends on who you ask.
 
@TorbjørnT. because I see students in our university use TexMaker, but now I realized that there are other editors. anyway I go with Texmaker
 
4:55 PM
@TorbjørnT. well said! I, for instance, use three different editors for LaTeX ;)
 
5:14 PM
@tohecz vim, vim, and vim. :)
@TorbjørnT. for example, David and I might provide the same answer. :)
 
Thanks everyone, I installed Laex succesfuly. without your help this was impossible. I appreciate your help.
 
5:30 PM
@PauloCereda TeXWorks, vim and gedit ;)
 
I'm getting some pretty interesting results hunting for the most efficient cs name, but I'm not sure how to interpret them yet.
 
@tohecz o.O
Same here! <3
 
@PauloCereda :)
 
@StephanLehmke TUG article? :)
 
I also found I absolutely can't read LaTeX3 code, for the life of me.
 
5:31 PM
@PauloCereda s/TeXWorks|vim|gedit/emacs/g then same here too
@StephanLehmke That's OK, and the normal reaction:-)
 
Basically, gedit for quick changes during the final reading when compile is not necessary, vim for remote access, and TeXWorks for everything else ;)
 
@PauloCereda Well I'm probably only reproducing what everybody who's read TeX The Program knows anyway ;-)
@DavidCarlisle same here
 
@DavidCarlisle <3
@StephanLehmke ooh! Here we go:
\title{\TeX perimental \TeX}
\author{Stephan Lehmke}
right after \usepackage{longtable}, of course. :)
 
@PauloCereda LOL. Something like "Pushing TeX Beyond all Reasonable Limits" might be more appropriate :-)
 
@PauloCereda Stephan's gone all modern: \use_package:n{long table}
 
5:36 PM
@PauloCereda I made my own :-)
And with working rowspans besides.
 
@StephanLehmke show off:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle LOL
@StephanLehmke ooh sounds futuristic!
 
@DavidCarlisle I can't even start adapting an existing example :-(
If I have
\prop_new:N \l_md_dim_prop
is \l_md_dim_prop just any cs name or do the segments like prop get evaluated internally?
 
@egreg: quick, David wrote a line of L3! Something is going on! :)
 
You gotta love an article: REGEX \\(left|right)([^a-z]) found 306 times :D
 
5:41 PM
@StephanLehmke I could read that stuff 15 years ago, but I dropped it and Joseph and Bruno changed it while I wasn't looking, so now I haven't the faintest idea what it does:-)
 
@tohecz LOL
@DavidCarlisle another beer on Joseph's tab? :)
 
@StephanLehmke No it is just a csname the initial l_ and trailing _prop are just nameing conventions, it works if you don't follow them
 
@PauloCereda after my correction, REGEX \\[Bb]igg?[rl] found 12 times :)
 
@DavidCarlisle Phew thanks. I immediately get intimidated by rich syntax.
 
@tohecz You'll turn into egreg if you are not careful.
 
5:44 PM
@DavidCarlisle LOL :D well, make \left and \right stop adding the spurious space and I'll be much happier :)
 
@tohecz I think that math class space table is settable from lua in luatex....
 
@DavidCarlisle but I'm not going to switch to lua for this. I'm quite happy with the REGEX above :)
btw, you know that an article has more collaborators, if there are spaces around --- in the Introduction, which are missing in the Conclusions ;)
 
@tohecz Well that's the trouble, lots of people say TeX is rubbish and why isn't it changed, then when someone changes it, they say "but that's not TeX" so we are stuck with a 1970's design....
 
@DavidCarlisle well, you can introduce a \leftrightskip, defaulting to the Knuth's value
 
@tohecz In my PhD thesis it'd probably be a trillion times, and proud of every one :-) I set \delimitershortfall-1sp and admire seeing them grow and flourish...
 
5:48 PM
@StephanLehmke that makes every outer pair bigger than the inside ones, right?
 
@tohecz yep
@tohecz and stops TeX from putting flimsy tiny parens around expressions with exponents
 
@StephanLehmke well, I do that some times as well, but not with every pair. In general, I grow one size if that's enough
 
@tohecz You could, or you could insert an entire separate language layer that lets you set it... either way it makes you incompatible with classic tex installations
 
@DavidCarlisle yep, but if you make the changes now, you have a hope that they'll become general in 10 years, like with eTeX
 
@tohecz Oh yes you see how well this comes along with a modern system like LaTeX3 :-)
 
5:52 PM
@StephanLehmke no pun intended
 
@tohecz I think I'd be embarrassed to ask anyone to switch engines from pdftex if the new engine wasn't Unicode based this century.
 
@DavidCarlisle well, all my LaTeX files are in Unicode :)
 
@tohecz sure but I feel inputenc's pain as it struggles to support utf8 (using code that Chris stole from xmltex:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle yeah, sometimes having to handle the \IeC commands or how're they called, that's really bad
btw, is there any harm in having align environment that contains no & nor \\ ?
 
You guys should write this stuff using λ-calculus notation. Way simpler. :P
 
6:12 PM
Does anyone know how l3prop is implemented? As mentioned above, I'm completely unable to understand LaTeX3 code.
In this answer
8
A: Array functionality in TeX?

Joseph WrightFor small-scale arrays, the usual solution is to use a \csname-based approach \expandafter\def\csname my@array@1\endcsname{content-for-key-1} which can then be read back just using \csname my@array@1\endcsname Depending on the use case, you may of course want to have the index as a LaTeX co...

 
@PauloCereda TBH, lambda calculus is one of the nice features of python. I actually start to understand what people like about it.
 
@tohecz You should definitely try Haskell. :)
 
@JosephWright mentions it as a "cure" for bad hash table performance when implementing arrays by "families" of control sequences, but in a first test I get something like 100fold worse performance than the worst-hashed "traditional" array implementation.
 
@PauloCereda well, Patoline is in Haskell. But I haven't tried it
@PauloCereda btw, do you know why I fell in love with python?
 
@tohecz No idea. :)
To piss off language purists? :)
 
6:16 PM
@PauloCereda yield
 
@tohecz Ah.
 
My situation: return the number 1,2,0 and then as many ones as user wants. Solution:
yield 1
yield 2
yield 0
while True :
  yeild 1
 
0m8.777s (prop) vs. 0m0.076s (traditional) for 1000 stores and 10000 retrievals, but maybe I'm using it wrong?
 
it's shorter than in any other language, and it's completely clear, once you know what yield actually does
 
@tohecz Ruby also has it.
 
6:20 PM
@PauloCereda whatever. Sage is written in Python, that's the very pure reason why it matters to me :)
 
@tohecz boo. :)
 
@PauloCereda whatever :p (I mean, whatever, as long as it's not poo)
 
@tohecz Say whatever one more time and I'll force you to use the Equation Editor next time. But I don't mean Office 2013's Equation Editor, I mean the 1997 one! :)
 
@PauloCereda whatever :p
 
@tohecz release the duck cake potato ooh a penny! kraken!
<3
 
6:24 PM
:)
 
@PauloCereda Just a few minutes during half time interval.
 
@egreg Hi! Do you know how l3prop works?
 
@StephanLehmke Yes. ;-)
@StephanLehmke What do you want to know?
 
@egreg Could you scroll up a little? I've been wondering how I could realistically compare its performance with traditional array implementation in TeX.
 
@StephanLehmke As Joseph says: it's a unique macro that stores the properties.
 
6:33 PM
My question has been interleaved a little with the dialogue between Paulo and tohecz, but I hope you can decipher it, otherwise I'll rephrase.
 
@StephanLehmke No time now: the second half is starting.
 
@egreg I'm just asking myself about the alleged better performance than the internal hash.
@egreg Ok. I'll ask on the main site tomorrow.
 
@StephanLehmke Plists rely on expanding a single control sequence, rather than storing an array in many of them.
 
@egreg I can understand the technical difference, I just can't imagine how this could perform better than the internal hash, and my tests indeed show a disastrously worse performance.
 
@egreg No one is broadcasting the game. :(
@StephanLehmke We did screw things, sorry. :) @tohecz: oopsie. :P
@StephanLehmke Wait 45 minutes, we will discuss the after game. :)
 
6:44 PM
@PauloCereda No problem, that's chat :-)
 
@StephanLehmke How many names did you test with?
@StephanLehmke The argument for a single csname is that TeX's hash function is not that great, so collisions are relatively common
 
@JosephWright 1000 was the last number I had the patience to wait for (8s for 1000 inserts and 10000 retrievals). With traditional arrays I can do 100000 stores and 1000000 retrievals in 4s.
 
Zuckerberg Shows Kindergartners Ruby Instead of JavaScript
 
@StephanLehmke That's only one array, though, yes?
 
What is with this world, where little kids can't learn TeX?
:)
 
6:53 PM
@JosephWright Correct, but what would be the difference? I could as well say I could construct and maintain 100 arrays of traditional build with the same ressources as one prop array.
 
7:12 PM
@tohecz vastly verbose compared to a lazy functional language such as haskell though where you just need [1,2,0,1..]
 
@DavidCarlisle Lazy evaluation FTW. :)
 
@DavidCarlisle I'm not going to say the word again :D Still you can count me as a C++ guy, all the modern languages are way too slow for my needs.
 
@PauloCereda They learnt TeX earlier they use it to typeset their ruby code listings
 
@DavidCarlisle oh. :)
 
@tohecz well Fortran pays my wages, so I'm not going to argue too much about that
 
7:16 PM
@DavidCarlisle kool
but really, I often need simple tasks on large data (or just many runs of the sub-program), and then C++ FTW :D (well, I don't know Fortran, so I can't say "Fortran FTW :D")
 
7:51 PM
@tohecz I know a little, so Fortran FTW! :)
 
Well, reruncheck of hyperref just saved me from a disaster which is completely unrelated to hyperref :)
 
8:14 PM
@StephanLehmke I told you the difference. Never tried to measure the performance.
 
I've seen many ways how to corrupt the paragraph flow in LaTeX, but this is the first time I met \\\indent
 
@tohecz so much easier to type than a blank line:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle exactly, and as well much clearer than \par ;)
actually, the document contains no blank lines at all
and they know better than I do that the 1st paragraph of each subsection has to be indented
 
8:34 PM
@tohecz There's an excellent package to do that:-)
 
no package needed, it is sufficient to place \indent after every \(sub)*section
and the best way how to cite equations and figures is by hard-coding the numbers
now this is very good, too: \rvert GK(j \omega)\lvert, someone still doesn't know which is his left and right hand
 
@tohecz That does nothing:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle really? I didn't care and didn't notice, in all the mess :D
 
@PauloCereda You probably know how the match ended: 1:0 at 90+1. :-)
 
(actually, I don't know what \(no)?indent is for, but surely not for LaTeX novices
 
8:47 PM
@tohecz NICE! This could go in my gallery of horrors!
 
@tohecz the heading code to remove indentation removes it whether it is implicit in the paragraph start or via \indent (it actually removes the indent box with \lastbox so it doesn't matter how the indent got there:-)
 
@egreg well, yes, quite :)
do you want the original code? I think you could get much more than just this one :)
 
@tohecz Presumably if author submissions were perfect, you'd be out of a job?
 
@tohecz I had one that had been careful not to leave any blank line; paragraphs had \par at the end, \parindent had been set to zero and after \par there was a macro that did \hspace*{0.5cm} or something like that.
 
@DavidCarlisle no, I would do even better job in unifying the visual appearance of the journal ;)
and I finally found a way that (hopefully) works well for center in figures: I change \begin{center} to \begin{centering}
 
8:51 PM
@tohecz Don't do it. It's wrong.
 
\begin{figure}
 \begin{center}
 \includegraphics[width=0.45\textwidth]{Fig7}
\caption{Step ... models.}
\label{fig7}     %Give a unique label
  \end{center}
\end{figure}

A step response, shown in Figure 7, represents the control
@egreg it adds one group, that's all
 
@tohecz better define \endcentering as \par in that case
 
@tohecz Where's the advantage over a simple \centering?
 
@egreg it's one easy replace
btw, I love the %Give a unique label in the example above :)
 
@tohecz Try it with \caption above the figure (for a table, for instance)
 
8:52 PM
@tohecz that won't centre unless you have defined endcentering
 
@egreg :)
 
@egreg well, I use some caption redefining package (don't remember which one now), and everything seems to work.
 
@tohecz Try this and see whether it's centered.
\documentclass{article}
\begin{document}
\begin{table}
\begin{centering}
\caption{ABC}
\begin{tabular}{c}
abc\\
def
\end{tabular}
\end{centering}
\end{table}
\end{document}
It isn't, of course.
@tohecz You have to search for \begin{center} anyway. And not all of them need to be changed into centering.
 
@egreg well, no \caption is above in this document. You know, I'm short on time when I do this, so I don't really care about using very dirty and wrong tricks, as long as the result is exactly what I want
 
@tohecz well it's a lot safer if you define endcentering to be par
 
9:08 PM
@tohecz This attitude will bite you, one day or the other.
 
@egreg yeah, that's quite possible :)
 
@tohecz whatever? :)
 
@PauloCereda nono, not in this case :)
 
@tohecz <3
 
9:48 PM
no, you are searching for one who had read the manual ... — Herbert Aug 21 '12 at 11:53
 
10:09 PM
Simple question. I've defined -> \newcommand{\neglogpp}{\textit{neglogpp}}
But the word this produces doesn't have a space before the next word;.
I'm sure this is simple user error.
Can anyone enlighten me?
To be clear, I do something like -> This is a \neglogpp value.
Then there is no space between "neglogpp" and "value".
Hmm, looks like this has been asked before...
 
A quick Q: Using the IEEE style with biblatex, if I use url in an article bib entry, the default text before the URL is [Online]. Available:. How do I change this text? MWE:
% arara: xelatex
% arara: biber
% arara: xelatex
% arara: xelatex
% arara: clean: {files: [test.bbl, test.bcf, test.aux]}

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{filecontents}
\begin{filecontents}{\jobname.bib}
	@article{Doe2013,
		title   = {Lorem Ipsum},
		volume  = {1},
		journal = {Foology},
		author  = {J. Doe},
		year    = {2013},
		pages   = {1--10},
		url     = {example.com}
	}
\end{filecontents}

\usepackage[%
	style=ieee,%
	backend=biber,%
	maxbibnames=3%
]{biblatex}

\addbibresource{./test.bib}
 
10:27 PM
@FaheemMitha \neglopp{}
 
@egreg Right. Or xspace, apparently.
Asked in three different questions on tex.sx. Glad I didn't add a fourth.
 
@FaheemMitha beware xspace :-)
 
@DavidCarlisle That sounds ominous. Care to elaborate?
 
42
Q: Drawbacks of xspace

MohanI'm certain I have read that xspace can cause more problems than it solves. But I cannot find anything to that effect either on this site or the web. Are there any drawbacks or risks associated with it?

 
@DonutE.Knot You could read the nag manual instead (that's 10000 pages:-)
 
10:33 PM
I set fire to teh rain!
 
@TorbjørnT. Oh I was just looking that up:-)
@PauloCereda ?
 
@DavidCarlisle Ah, I see you are the co-author of xspace. Small world.
 
@DavidCarlisle Adele. :)
 
@DavidCarlisle :-)
 
@PauloCereda I'll have to ask egreg about that
 
10:38 PM
@DavidCarlisle 100% sure he knows. :)
 
@DavidCarlisle I know something called “adèle” in algebraic geometry.
 
@egreg I assumed that's what Paulo was on about although it seemed a bit out of context
 
\usepackage{amsthm}
\newtheorem{algor}{Algorithm}

...

\begin{algor}\label{algor:Theta}\leavevmode
\begin{enumerate}
\item[\textbullet]
 Input: $\gamma$ satisfying \eqref{eq:cmplx-gamma}, $c_0>0$.
\item[\textbullet]
 Output: All possible palettes $\Pal(\Omega)$ of $\Sigma(\Omega)$ for $\Omega=[0,c)$ and $\gamma'c_0\leq c<c_0$.
\item Compute the set $\Theta=\{\theta_0<\theta_1<\dots<\theta_{N-1}\}$ given by \eqref{eq:Theta},
 with $L\eqdef L_{\gamma'c_0}$ as defined in \eqref{eq:L}.
\item \label{algor:Theta:enum:for} Using Algorithm \ref{algor:Xi}, compute the palettes $\Pal(\Omega)$ for al
^^ I get a pagebreak after Algorithm 5.3. and before the enumerate. Do you think that this was solved before, or should I make it a question on the site?
 
@tohecz Each \item adds a penalty \@beginparpenalty that is a feasible page break point.
 
@egreg can I modify it at this single place? Like with \begingroup\@beginparpenalty@MM\item\endgroup or something like that ?
 
10:53 PM
Of course your enumerate should be itemize with simply \item and not the horrible \item[\textbullet], but this is another matter
 
@egreg that's complicated, I have two bullets and then enumerate. The result is quite ok in amsart
 
@tohecz Oh, I see. Weird, anyway. You might try with {\makeatletter\@beginparpenalty\@M\item} for the first item
 
I just noticed that my figure captions are in italics, but the table captions are in normal text. Is this some artifact of my implementation, or is this just the default?
 
@egreg It doesn't like the group, otherwise it works :)
Ok, so this works:
\begingroup\makeatletter\@beginparpenalty\@M\item[\textbullet] Input: blablabla\endgroup
\item ...
@FaheemMitha surely not anything standard
 
@tohecz Ok.
 
11:02 PM
@rm-rf It is defined in ieee.bbx by \DefineBibliographyStrings{english}{url = [Online]\adddot\addspace Available}. Add that to the preamble after biblatex, and change [Online]\adddot\addspace Available to whatever you want.
 
@FaheemMitha standard classes use same formatting for all captions
 
@TorbjørnT. wow!
Quelqu'un français ici, s'il vous plaît?
 
@tohecz Well, finding the style file and searching for "Online" isn't really that hard ...'
 
@tohecz I'm not sure about the spelling of “quelq'un”. ;-)
 
@TorbjørnT. yep I know, but still, it takes some insight
@egreg Typing French on Czech keyboard's gonna kill me one day
 
11:08 PM
@DavidCarlisle I see. Thanks.
 
@tohecz My feeling is that it should be “Quelque français ici”
@tohecz Typing French on French keyboards is worse.
 
@egreg Peut être
@egreg Vraiment!
The point is that the Czech keyboard has all French accents available through AltGr+Shift, but it's 4-5 keys for one letter, which kills me. As well, the apostrophe is badly placed.
 
J'ai mis le feu à la pluie!
 
@tohecz drop all the accents, no one ever notices the pesky things do they?
 
@tohecz Or “Y a-t-il des français ici, s'il vous plaît?”
 
11:11 PM
@tohecz Just a little. By the way, speaking of 'nice' ways of starting new paragraphs, in the manuals for http://swanmodel.sourceforge.net you'll find \\[2ex] \noindent (with no empty lines in sight). Other niceties include the following to start a subsubsection or something like that: \\[2ex] \noindent \underline{Subsubsection}\\[2ex].
 
@egreg Or even "Il y a/ont des française ici, svp"?
 
@tohecz L'inversion !
 
@egreg They don't use it so much in l'argot, I'd say
@TorbjørnT. well, quite common. My favourite is \\~\\~\\ for vertical white-space
 
@tohecz That's a different thing
 
@egreg but chat is almost like spoken language ;)
On peut dire: "Un mec français ici? Non? Merde!" :D
 
11:16 PM
@tohecz My French teacher had bad times when she had to teach the inversion in interrogative sentences. For most of my classmates French was the third language: dialect as L1 and Italian as L2.
 
@tohecz Very nice.
 
@egreg Well, when I write a letter/email, I use them, in spoken language, quite rarely.
 
@tohecz The curious fact is that in my dialect we do subject-verb inversion in interrogative sentences. :-)
 
@egreg in your dialect of which language?
 
@tohecz We call it "dialect”, but it's not really in the English meaning. It's actually a different language.
Not only different words or slight deviations from the “official” grammar.
 
11:25 PM
@egreg ok, so "dialect of Latin" ;)
 
@tohecz Yes, with borrowings from German and even some words from Arabic.
For instance we say “naransa” for the orange (the fruit), similar to Spanish “naranja”, while in Italian it's “arancia”; directly from Arabic.
 
@egreg oh, the pomeranč ;)
 
@tohecz A word that comes from Venetian is "arsenal”. It derives from Arabic, too.
The artichoke is "articioco” in our language, while in Italian it is "carciofo”
 
@egreg well, I apologize but I got quite disappointing mail just now, so I don't think I'm in the mood to continue any etymological discussions
 
@tohecz :(
 
11:32 PM
@tohecz oh :(
 
@egreg it's about the scouts. For longer time, we have problem of the fact that actually nobody of us (=leaders) really wants to "carry the responsibility" and feel it as "his place". It's all quite complicated now, and we seriously have to consider closing the group in the horizon or 1-2 years
the current problems, not-so-nice discussions and very short and straight mails just confirm that we don't feel really well about the situation
 

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